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Err, if the Labour Party deselect you, you don’t automatically join the Governing party.
Of course not, but I’m assuming they would just become even bigger pains.
Your knowledge is rather startling. When did you chat with them?
You’re entitled to your opinion dissonance, I just disagree. You can’t read people’s minds, you have to judge them by their actions - which are left wanting in this case.
You can’t read people’s minds
Apart from you are making clear and precise statements about their position which, frankly, doesnt hold up to even basic scrutiny.
4th defeat for PM BoJo within 24hr. 😀
No 2/3 support for fixed term election.
JC does not want an election for fear of losing so in effect he has confidence in the govt. (good response from PM BoJo - few minutes ago) 🤣
Corbyn in the driving seat
Johnson desperately wants an election, he is a lame duck
Only Corbyn can give him one
If Johnson has to extend AND no deal is ruled out farage will eat up what's left of the Tory vote
Where's that strutting Cornyn gif?
Corbyn in the driving seat
Yes, he is but the question is can he drive? 😂
Johnson desperately wants an election, he is a lame duck
Actually in the eye of the world UK is now a lame duck Not because of PM BoJO. 🤔
Apparently this is the first time an opposition party refused an invitation for an election according to PM BoJo. 🤣
How long will JC prevent an election? 😀
The longer this continues the better because in the next GE there will be a landslide for one party, not sure which party but there will a party(s) consign to history or heavily hammered. 🤔
What a complete farce British politics is right now. People voted to leave but the politicians won’t let them leave, the government are again being told what to do (go and ask for an extension) by the opposition, now they cannot even hold a bloody election ffs.
Surely because the vote to leave won then leave it is. You cannot move goalposts and say because no one voted for no deal it doesn’t count, especially as leave has not even been implemented. What happens next time something is voted for and wins, can you change your mind and not even implement it?
it really is total cockup. My 2p worth, rightly or wrongly, implement the referendum result which was leave, see what happens over the next 5 or 10 years, who knows things might be ok or ask to rejoin if its that bad. But as the country is so split 50% will be unhappy what ever the outcome is. How do you rebuild from this?
You cannot move goalposts
You mean, like saying Brexit could give us a deal with the EU “like Norway or Switzerland but better, because of our size”, and then, once just over half the country have voted with you … move on to say that ANY deal with the EU isn’t really Brexit, and isn’t what people voted for.
The goalposts were moved.
The bait and switch was blatant.
Nice to see the Tory ****s hoisted by their own petard, the fixed term act is their own legislation..... now being used against them, time to slowly squeeze the lame duck.
What a complete farce British politics is right now. People voted to leave but the politicians won’t let them leave, the government are again being told what to do (go and ask for an extension) by the opposition, now they cannot even hold a bloody election ffs.
Parliament has prevented the Govt in carrying out its duty.
Parliament considers themselves sovereign but they have forgotten their overlord that is the people.
Power has been lent to the Parliament by the people and if Parliament goes against the will of the people, this can be seen as Parliament acting in contempt of the people. The Parliament will get it in the next GE.
Surely because the vote to leave won then leave it is. You cannot move goalposts and say because no one voted for no deal it doesn’t count, especially as leave has not even been implemented. What happens next time something is voted for and wins, can you change your mind and not even implement it?
That is precisely the tactics being used to prevent leaving EU. The so called deal will only make UK weaker in the eye of the world. No credibility in terms respecting people will whatever they wish to say. The rebel alliance want a deal but knowing that is not going to happen simply use it to push as an excuse to prolong brexit in the hope that the longer it goes, the weaker the desire of the people for brexit and to vote to remain or to cancel brexit.
But as the country is so split 50% will be unhappy what ever the outcome is. How do you rebuild from this?
If 52% is not enough for a referendum then they should also consider if candidates winning in an election with a small margin should be reconsidered legitimate. Well they might argue referendum is different but then what is democracy when having won beyond 50% is not considered a win?
The trouble I have with this kelvin is I distrust nearly all politicians/parties. I feel They say whatever they need to to get elected at a given time. How many times have party manifestos and pledges not been delivered on once in power? They lie all the time
how long till they ask the rebels to come back to the party.
Actually in the eye of the world UK is now a lame duck Not because of PM BoJO.
Possibly agree with that, although BloJo takes some of the blame - most of it lies with folk like Cummings, Farage, JRM, and the rest of the Brexies. They just wouldn’t let it lie would they?
Johnson is just a bit of a tart for power willing to do anything for a bit of advancement.
Same old bobbins trotted out there Chew, "will of the people" banded about like it means anything. It was near as dammit 50/50. Just as many people happy as cheesed off with the current state of affairs.
I don't think rebuild inf from this will take that long. No-one gave a crap about Europe before 2016, they'll soon forget.
Just because you think democracy means do X without thinking about the consequences doesn't make it so.
Basic problem you have here is that a referendum ain’t compatible with your representative democracy as practiced in the Uni’ed Kingdom.
It’s your basic incompatibility problem, innit?
Now your Swiss democracy, they love a bit of a referendum. ‘Course they know how to ignore inconvenient ones, but still, that’s your natural home of the referendum. Don’t grow well in a British democratic environment.
(Try saying it in a Monty Python voice 🦵👉😉)
The only grace for the British Parliament is that the British people are patient.
In other part of the world such contempt of the people will end up with civil war! 😃
Same old bobbins trotted out there Chew, “will of the people” banded about like it means anything. It was near as dammit 50/50. Just as many people happy as cheesed off with the current state of affairs.
Does the Parliament have any power if not for the people lending them or electing their representatives to do their bidding?
Do politicians have power if nobody elect them?
Yes, Parliament is sovereign but if Parliament tries to make the mockery of the people then they should be held accountable and the politicians deselect by the people. This is done in GE but if the people are Not even given the rights to choose then essentially Parliament is in contempt of the people by refusing the people their rights to have a vote.
(Try saying it in a Monty Python voice 🦵👉😉)
I tried but I prefer my hero Peter Griffin. 😂
No-one gave a crap about Europe before 2016, they’ll soon forget.
+1
andy4d
Subscriber
People voted to leave but the politicians won’t let them leave
As ever, the problem is that there was a tiny majority for leave, but there was never a majority for any particular version of leave. The hard brexiteers wouldn't have Theresa May's deal- never forget that it was defeated by leavers not by brexiters, including Johnson, it wasn't hard enough for them. Certainly no majority for no deal, too many people won't accept crashing out and rightly say it's not what was promised. Basically 96% of brexit voters need to be behind the one final, real brexit that can happen, and that is just never going to be the case
And the thing is, it's entirely the Leave campaign's fault- they decided to campaign on a fantasy brexit, and of course it can't be delivered. They always knew that'd be the case, they just thought they'd be able to ram through anything they wanted by shouting BREXIT enough. The reason being, they knew perfectly well that there was no majority for any real, possible brexit- if they'd tried to run with one they'd have lost by a mile. And they always, always said that there would be a deal. "Easiest in history".
If you bought a toaster that guaranteed you bigger, better, faster cheaper toast, and it turned out all it could do was incinerate the bread, you'd take it back to the shops. And you wouldn't let the shop tell you "well you asked for a toaster! It's not the one we promised but that doesn't matter, this is the only toaster we can give you so you have to keep it."
None of this is new- it was the case before the referendum, and the day after, and it always will be. Which of course is why the brexiteers, who constantly talk about "the will of the people", can't have a second referendum.
andy4d ^^^ if we leave a future application to rejoin is possible but existing opt-outs and rebates would be off the table.
The EU would dictate their terms on a 'take it or leave it basis'; I could see that including a non-negotiable requirement to adopt the euro.
What a complete shit-show.
How long before Cummings departs and finds another pile of shit on which to feed?
I thoroughly enjoyed Ken Clarke's put down of Johnson during the debate.
Watching Johnson squirm and bluster is truly delightful.
We need clear-headed strategic thinking from Labour.
^^^out of interest if article 50 is revoked do the opt outs/rebates remain? I thought I read somewhere a while back that we would have to negotiate them again, or does everything go back to how it was?
northwind, I don’t disagree but as I said I don’t really trust politicians, so if I bought a toaster of delboy after his sales pitch thinking I was getting a great deal and it was a turkey should I be surprised?
Surely because the vote to leave won then leave it is.
The referendum should have been treated as a declaration of intent, and then we should have spent the next few years debating exactly how we wanted to leave. Instead, we pulled the pin almost immediately with no planning, which is why we are in this mess. Blindly following the result to the letter and destroying the country in the process isn't what most people wanted at the election and it's not what most people want now. So why do it when it's going to be so incredibly damaging?
We need strategic thinking from Labour
Good luck with that. You’ve seen who’s nominally ‘in charge’?
Seems like they’re keen on revisiting the elephant trap they dodged first time around to not miss wading into it this time...
Utterly clueless!
Completely and utterly ****ing clueless
For Cummings, they’re the gift that never stops giving
Still 12 points behind this shower of incompetence in the polls. A truly amazing achievement.
out of interest if article 50 is revoked do the opt outs/rebates remain?
Risk has said we'd be readmitted as we are now
I imagine that all we'd have lost is a huge amount of respect, but that's lost regardless of what we do now
When it became obvious that the brexiteers had no actual plan for brexit in the eyes of the EU (& the rest of the world) we became a laughing stock
.
Also, even an October election could result in the incumbent PM dragging his heals on leaving office and going to the Queen… how long was Brown PM after the election where he lost his majority?
Oh, that was a reply to Del’s now deleted post. Never mind.
Does anyone think there’s any possible deal that will ever pass parliament?
No. Because any "good deal" is at best slightly worse than we already have. The absolute best fantasy deal we could negotiate is every benefit we currently have only with giving up our say at the negotiating table. For all its failings, parliament recognises this.
Most people on STW think Boris genuinely wants no deal and has a serious chance of delivering it.
Boris wants what's best for Boris. Whether that's May's deal, no deal, Labour's red unicorns deal, remain, reform, a cup of tea and a cheese sandwich... it matters not so long as he comes up smelling of petunias.
People voted to leave but the politicians won’t let them leave, the government are again being told what to do (go and ask for an extension) by the opposition, now they cannot even hold a bloody election ffs.
Why do you hate democracy?
What a complete farce British politics is right now.
Yup. Laughing stock of the world.
People voted to leave
... in an opinon poll.
but the politicians won’t let them leave,
No-one's stopping anyone from leaving. Freedom of movement, the door's thataway. -->
More seriously, the UK leaving the EU is complicated. But that's a longer post.
the government are again being told what to do (go and ask for an extension) by the opposition,
Parliament is sovereign. I thought that was important?
Now they cannot even hold a bloody election ffs.
I don't fully understand it, but I'm sure that election qualification criteria hasn't changed significantly in the last couple of years.
Surely because the vote to leave won then leave it is.
No, because the UK is a representative democracy.
My 2p worth, rightly or wrongly,
Wrongly.
who knows things might be ok
Might be, sure. Eventually. Probably after we're both dead.
or ask to rejoin if its that bad.
Do you think we'll be able to rejoin on the same / comparable terms? We've been hearing totally-not-project-fear claims for the last three years about the enemy that is the EU27, you reckon if we go back cap-in-hand they'll come over all fuzzy all of a sudden because of a continent-wide Vimto shortage? There's a dichotomy here, pick one.
But as the country is so split 50% will be unhappy what ever the outcome is. How do you rebuild from this?
And that right there is the only sensible point in the entire post. Nail on the head, out of the park, well said. We're going to be divided for a long time. How do we come back from this? I've no idea. I've said on other threads that the compromise may be to reform, to look at the reasons why people wanted to leave and address those issues because they're mostly domestic problems. But, eh, it's easier to blame foreigners.
Cougar
Parliament is sovereign.
It may be in England, but not in Scotland.
The Treaty of Union guarantees that Scots law remains in force, and in Scotland the people are sovereign, not the monarch, not the parliament.
Cougar sums it up better than anyone in the last three years right there.
Still 12 points behind this shower of incompetence in the polls. A truly amazing achievement.
That's a reflection of idiots who've been polled. The same ones who voted for Brexit.
You are so out of sync with what's going on. You are not getting Tom Watson, Ken Clarke, Rory Stewart, Swindleson (anyone else I've missed that you've declared fit to run a party?) - you're getting Corbo.
You didn't expect we'd get to this point with Corbyn did you and you have nowhere to go with your rants, accept maybe admit you've been wrong on just about every hysterical prediction.
What drugs are you in Rone, to make you think labour will do well in an election at the moment?
Those polls are not of brexit voting idiots, they are a statistically representative sample of the wider population.
They will only way they might be unrepresentative is that there is an unlikely chance of a wild swing over a short period of time to Corbyn because of this shit show.
Do I still get my blue passport? I've got to renew before end of January.
I also noted my driving licence that I renewed last night is EU flagged...
Just a thought, when the inevitable election happens, labour I think will have to be a full remain party.
Having now come off the fence (slightly) and stopped Boris's no deal Brexit the Tories are going to paint them as untrustworthy with Brexit. So even tho Corbyn wants to leave I think now anyone who wants to leave won't trust them.
Have labour just made a deal with the Tories ?
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1169441207556218880?s=19
The best time to have an election is after 31st because then Johnson has broken his pledge
Before then Corbyn is playing into Johnson's hands?
The best time to have an election is after 31st because then Johnson has broken his pledge
That would be easy enough for him to argue he tried as best he could but Corbyn et al prevented it (followed by the usual bs of not respecting the will of the country).
I can't say I'm thrilled with the prospect of an election any time soon though, chances are it would end up in a Tory win (with a slim majority) or some sort of Tory/Brexit party coalition shit show. I really can't see Labour winning - outside of STWland there's still a huge amount of support for Brexit and enough right-wing media and Facebook advertising to scupper their chances). A Labour/Lib Dem coalition seems unlikely but perhaps the only option for there to be a majority to pass having a 2nd referendum through the house.
Corbyn and the Rebel Alliance are using the fact that Johnson needs an election to force him not to drag his heels over the bill when it gets voted through. It's a decent tactic.
Fun as it would be to let Johnson stew for years it's not really practical. With a minority government we need an election don't we?
The best time to have an election is after 31st because then Johnson has broken his pledge
Before then Corbyn is playing into Johnson’s hands?
Yep, if Boris is pushing for one then the only reason is that he thinks it will benefit him so don't allow him.
Johnson could have called for an election, to get his own mandate, as soon as he became PM. Ignore his requests, get an extension sorted, then look at an election… where opposition parties need to show they have learnt the lesson about working together to disarm Johnson and his team of non-conservatives.
.
Smartest thing Johnson to do now is to offer Scotland independence.
Then after a GE there will be 50+ opposition MPs less.
Wouldn't put it past him.
If we're not out of Europe by 1st November then it will be the fault of everyone except Boris. We voted out, he made a promise and was frustrated by traitors. I can basically write the headlines/manifesto now. He'll be able to include various measures aimed at reducing the role of parliament and will have the backing of a new government to do so.
The best time to have an election is after 31st because then Johnson has broken his pledge
There won’t be an election after the 31st as Boris won’t call one just after he’s been humiliated by being forced to ask the E.U. for an extension. The 21 rebels will be reinstated and it’s uncertain whether a VONC would pass, the best hope for an election before the 31st and after the Benn bill is passed into law.
An election just before we are due to leave is electoral suicide for Labour… it’s Johnson’s best option to use the Brexit Party to his advantage, rather than it destroying his political career.
I’ve just given up, we need new parties and MPs that will actually do the job.
I am surprised by the Lord's tactics. Time will tell.
Fallon is quitting. But Sevenoaks is a very safe seat for the Tories. There are rumors David Cameron might replace him.
If we’re not out of Europe by 1st November then it will be the fault of everyone except Boris. We voted out, he made a promise and was frustrated by traitors. I can basically write the headlines/manifesto now. He’ll be able to include various measures aimed at reducing the role of parliament and will have the backing of a new government to do so.
I think this is actually the plan 🙂
It's going to be best soundbite wins unfortunately an Boris has been on track with the rhetoric from day one.
No solutions or intetntions just leave which was the default or pick up the election afterwards with plenty of ammunition for the campaing and he'll get his five years as PM so happy days.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted:
A senior Labour MP has just said Jeremy Corbyn told him tonight he would NOT allow Boris Johnson to have an election before 31st October https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1169365639103991809?s=17
Tom Kibasi (@TomKibasi) Tweeted:
IMPORTANT: My EU sources say if the no-deal bill passes, they will take a request for an extension from the UK as a matter of "legal fact" whether or not Johnson actually sends a letter himself. https://twitter.com/TomKibasi/status/1169402227385077760?s=17
Tom Kibasi (@TomKibasi) Tweeted:
IMPORTANT: My EU sources say if the no-deal bill passes, they will take a request for an extension from the UK as a matter of “legal fact” whether or not Johnson actually sends a letter himself.
And people think the EU is good?? Wtf is this kangaroo bs
Let’s have a people’s vote eg a general election, follow up with a final say referendum, in which the great unwashed will vote in a landslide for a Brexit, then let’s get it done, get out and move on!!
Come on guys!!
Or population vote for Remain and UK stay in.
The EU appear to be taking the will of our parliament seriously, irrespective of whether or not our oaf of a pm can be arsed doing his homework.
How exactly would sir like to 'get it done'?
Seems unlikely
Apart from it won't be a landslide for Brexit, Remain will win so we won't have to get anything done.
And people think the EU is good?
Well they'd be adhering to UK law even if our PM doesn't.
I am surprised by the Lord’s tactics.
The Tory Lords realised that blocking the progress of a bill by being childish pricks wasn't a good look, even for them.
As scotroutes points out the Bill has almost no effect on Boris, or the promise he made to come out by 31st. he will brush it aside as out of his control.
The longer this goes on the more I like the EU and the less I like the Tory party and the British government. Parliament has its moments.
Anyone that uses the phrases "just get on with it" or "just get it done" really doesn't have a clue. They need to go away, look into the complexity of it and then never say "just get it done" every again.
Or Johnson stands up admits brexit is shit and bravely puts the country before his own personal views and the country explodes in confusion as we hate/ love Boris and hate/ love his views.
A senior Labour MP has just said Jeremy Corbyn told him tonight he would NOT allow Boris Johnson to have an election before 31st October
So… Corbyn was one of the grownups after all. I just need to go and delete a hundred or so of my past posts…
Let’s have a people’s vote eg a general election, follow up with a final say referendum, in which the great unwashed will vote in a landslide for a Brexit, then let’s get it done, get out and move on!!
There is every likelihood that this will be the order of events. Brexit won’t necessarily be stopped by a referendum… I still think a Leave win is the most likely result… but that’s up to the voters.
Ooo, a new leave troll.
Anyway, back on track, interesting times, nice to see some plums on the opposition at last, also the EU take on the bill. They clearly don't trust the glove puppet of Cummings either.
They need to go away, look into the complexity of it and then never say “just get it done” every again.
The problem is that such people can’t really deal with complex ideas. At the root of populism is the fact that people just think in terms of simple solutions. They don’t understand detail.
The longer this goes on the more I like the EU and the less I like the Tory party and the British government. Parliament has its moments.
Tory party doesn't seem to look like much of the Tory party any more.
Its just a Tory flag stapled on the front of the Brexit party.
Or Johnson stands up admits brexit is shit and bravely puts the country before his own personal views and the country explodes in confusion as we hate/ love Boris and hate/ love his views.
This would nicely complete the circle, given BoJo was one the biggest players of "liar, liar, pants on fire" promoting Brexit in the run up to the silliest UK referendum of my lifetime.
Corbyn was one of the grownups after all.
Where’s Binners? Honestly though this was always the case if you looked beyond the hysteria. I have to admit though that I’m quite surprised at how ell it’s been done. Not there yet though so let’s not get carried away. Winning an election is going to be hugely difficult whenever it is. The key decision now is whether a labour victory is more or less likely by going early or later. I don’t know the answer to that, but I do fear the opportunity could be lost.
Thanks for contributing @davidbelstein, please do so again. Ignore the troll comments.
Anyone that uses the phrases “just get on with it” or “just get it done” really doesn’t have a clue. They need to go away, look into the complexity of it and then never say “just get it done” every again.
Troll or not the post highlights the problem with a second vote. It's clear there are far too many stupid people who don't understand the complexities of leaving to guarantee a remain win.
Fair play to Corbyn, I've been ultra critical of him in the past but I admire how he's now going about annoying Johnson by not falling into his trap.
It'll be interesting to see what Johnson does next, I fear whether he will actually ask for the extension or if he'll ignore it completely. Doing the latter, whilst clearly illegal, may well appeal him to large parts of his voter base. Not sure of the consequences of him doing this though.
And whilst I'm here, can we not try and put some kind of coalition government together lead by Jess Phillips and Ken Clarke? They seem 2 of the very few sane voices in parliament at the moment.
It’s clear there are far too many stupid people who don’t understand the complexities of leaving to guarantee a remain win.
The temerity of all those stupid people eh... this sort of comment hardens people’s resolve to vote for a brexit, obviously
Winning an election is going to be hugely difficult
I think every one realised that most of the gains that Corbyn and Labour managed in 2017 was at the expense of a Tory leader who "ran" a woeful campaign...It's completely different now.
I don't think it'll be a huge majority, but I predict a Tory Govt with a single digit/otherwise teeny majority propped up by DUP support that will repeal the Benn Bill in the first couple of days of it's administration. I think the last couple of days have slowed things up by a couple of months, but that's pretty much it. The airwaves are full of regretful MPs from both sides wondering aloud why they didn't support the May withdrawal act, as they are now faced by a govt of rightwing ERG supporting idealoges who will stop at nothing and have no compunction at all about going for what they want using any tactic available to them.
this sort of comment hardens people’s resolve to vote for a brexit, obviously
At this point it doesn't matter whether you voted for or against Brexit, the "New Look" Conservative party are going to screw you regardless*
* unless you have a few million stuffed in your mattress, obvs.
It’s clear there are far too many stupid people who don’t understand the complexities of leaving
Unfortunately, one of those is the Prime Minister.
I think Corbyn's actions these last few weeks will help his election chances significantly. Whether or not it'll be enough is another question.
Get it done, in a case of no deal that means:
Setting up frontier checks including NI one way or another, more paperwork at borders and delays.
The need for a passport for Europeans, tourism from the EU takes a hit
The city loses its banking passport, Uk banks lose the majority of their internatinal business
Uk manufacturing becomes unatractive except for the domestic market
The pound crashes properly, interst rates are raised to prop up the pound and the housing market crashes
Economically active EU citizens in the UK realise they're not earning enough to qualify for residence, their wages are worth less and they're not wanted. They leave and can't be replaced as UK citizens don't have the skills or work attitude.
This isn't project fear it's just foreseeable consequences. But it hasn't happened yet and the pound is recovering which says market think it's not going to happen any time soon.
The election result will prob come down to tactical voting across leave and especially remain constituencies
I live in a blue/red marginal with Lib-Dems distant 3rd (20,000 votes distant). Labour will simply not win if Labour people switch to LibDem.
And whilst I’m here, can we not try and put some kind of coalition government together lead by Jess Phillips and Ken Clarke? They seem 2 of the very few sane voices in parliament at the moment.
There's been a lot of talk about an coalition or interim government. It could still happen, but it's a tough job. A lot of the Socialist side of Labour really don't like the LibDems, a lot of the LibDems and SNP won't sign up unless they're offered Proportional Representation or Scotish Indie Vote and whilst Ken Clarke has been made to look like a bit of a cuddly old Teddy Bear of late, but he was part of Thatchers Government which pretty much makes him the anti-Christ to a lot of people.
The sticking point is probably Corbyn, a lot of people, including himself will think that he it the only person to be PM as the Leader of the largest party in the Coalition, but his previous policies on the EU and lots of other things puts him fundamentally at odds with the LibDems, a party pretty much created to get away from Socialism.
Anyway, a chaotic as it is, our current parliament works, you have a real panto baddie as PM, but almost without power. He'll be the perfect lightening rod.
Would a Labour/Libdem agreement to field candidates tactically and run a coalition afterward, have any legs?
Anyway, a chaotic as it is, our current parliament works, you have a real panto baddie as PM, but almost without power. He’ll be the perfect lightening rod.
It's a bizarre electoral system currently. The FTP Act means a minority powerless government can't even throw in the towel and call an election without the permission of the opposition, who might be inclined to keep them in place to own their mess as long as it wants.
Funny to watch, though.
The temerity of all those stupid people eh… this sort of comment hardens people’s resolve to vote for a brexit, obviously
Well your comments suggest you have absolutely no understanding about the complexities of leaving. If it was easy and you could just 'get it done' without major ramifications, it would have been done long ago.
So yeah, I stick by my comment. Stupid people shouldn't get to vote on matters they don't understand that have far reaching consequences for the future of our country.
Unless you have a suggestion for just 'getting it done' that no one has yet thought of? If so, let's hear it? I'm sure it'll be well thought out....
Unless you have a suggestion for just ‘getting it done’ that no one has yet thought of
Educator had a good list for starters.
Tpbiker - your comments are not helping a calm, reasoned debate. Name calling, condescending responses don't engage anyone, people just get their preconceptions of "arrogant know it all remoaners" reinforced and the argument becomes even more polarised. Also this place becomes even more of an echo chamber if every dissenting view is bullied away - at least chewy is thick skinned enough to keep coming back, even if he doesn't always offer the most reasoned comments.