Forum menu
Nothing over the weekend was untrue. The noise is simply because some EU players were embarrassed that the truth was made clear.
This (from TMH). The EU where publicly embarrassed and had to “react”. Reality is they have actually not done anything, the Parliament resolution today is non-binding ( ironic eh ? 🙂 )
Matty Labour voted for the amendment except Howey and Fields who voted against. Jarred is “off sick” allegedly. All DUP voted with Govt, 10 Tories against. Govt lost by 4
No it’s not.
But it’s doesn’t matter as it makes no difference in the end. Other than making a sensible deal more difficult to achieve. Who mentioned Turkeys earlier?
Yep. If you publicly embarrass folk you’re trying to negotiate with it does tend to mess up the negotiations Jamba / THM.
I sometimes get the feeling you don’t like democracy very much THM, particularly if it leads to uncertainty.
It leaves one sensible option very much on the table (given my suspicion that no deal is actually untenable in the minds of the “grownups “)
Here it comes....
[img] 
[/img]
please do, I don't recall the reference (genuinely)
It's from 'the wire'
It was as your expert pointed out and its a strange day when i trust the PM and Davis more than you do
No point continuing this, you seem to be completely misunderstanding the point.
😆 Oh the irony 😆
Business does not like uncertainty and THM values the ability to make money above all things
Matty Labour voted for the amendment
First time Labour got off the fence in a while and didn't get whipped into abstention, and for all the wrong reasons, but the right result.
Nothing over the weekend was untrue.
Did you miss all the stuff about the impact studies? The ones that were apparently too complex for anyone to read, or alternatively didn't actually exist.
Trustworthy?
On the contrary IGM I am one of the few here who clearly values it.
They are only embarrassed by the truth. Either they were hiding it or they didn’t understand. Both are very embarrassing indeed hence the rush to amend the paperwork retrospectively.
Verhofstadt looked very silly indeed
True dat mattyfez, True dat
No point continuing this, you seem to be completely misunderstanding the point.
😀
99% 😉
Then respect its workings THM.
And if you were negotiating with someone, announced an outline deal jointly, only for the other side to publicly say it doesn’t mean anything it’s only outline a day or so later, you’d be somewhat annoyed and wondering why you’re negotiating with said clown. Annoyed and embarrassed, yes.
ah the vicarious abuse of thm who lacks the courage, control or intellect to engage directly 8)
Best to know when ones limits THM 😉
Then respect its workings THM.
Says a member of a minority looking to ignore both a referendum and an even more emphatic parliamentary vote. Deep breaths my friend, the emotion must be getting to you...
And if you were negotiating with someone, announced an outline deal jointly, only for the other side to publicly say it doesn’t mean anything it’s only outline a day or so later, you’d be somewhat annoyed and wondering why you’re negotiating with said clown. Annoyed and embarrassed, yes.
Leaving aside the untruth (tut,tut) about doesn’t mean anything, I prefer to look at it from a different perspective I have been in many negotiations and if any of my team were foolish enough to misunderstand what was binding and not binding I would fire them for incompetence on the spot.
The Eu simple got caught with their pants down by a simple answer to a simple question posed by Marr. No wonder they are so sensitive about it.
BTW you did read the comment from that Matt incorrectly suggested cane from DD a few pages back. It explains why there were so many red faces around.
I sometimes get the feeling you don’t like democracy very much THM, particularly if it leads to uncertainty.
Ha. Nail on head.
THM values the ability to make money above all things
[img] http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/resources/images/3069146/ [/img]
Seems like there are lots of people embarrassed by not understanding what is going on judging by ^
😀
so, any comments about Davis' various answers to parliament on the impact studies and any impact that might have on whether we can trust anything else he promises?
You trust a politician??
No wonder they get away with stuff in small print 😉
I don’t - prefer to do my own work. Much better
so again - now we've determined that you can't trust them, why is it strange that a 'ministerial assurance' of a vote on the deal didn't satisfy the democratic process of parliament, leading then to them requiring a legislative assurance tonight?
prefer to do my own work
you made that point a week ago, which i responded to but you didn't answer
THM - my main emotion tonight is curiosity.
I have long maintained that democracy is not static, being in the minority was at a point in time which had now passed, and the whole point of democracy is to try and build a majority not give up when you don’t yet have one.
Now I know we have disagreed on this many times - I don’t expect to convince you. But please keep an open mind to other points of view.
As for Davis’s comments, he was at pains to point out it wasn’t legally binding, which is of course both correct and irrelevant. The relevant bit was the pointing it out which does not engender good relations.
I don’t think the EU were under any misapprehensions about the legal status, but once Davis had opened his mouth they felt they had to act.
The moral? Announce agreements, not things that are a bit like agreements. Any don’t let Davis speak in public. Or elsewhere. A diplomat he is not.
Any response to my question regarding you stating you'd likely retire to an EU country?
@teethgrinder I went back 20 pages but I missed the post, feel free to ask again but some thoughts which ring true to me
[b]Vote Leave tagline was “Europe Yes. EU No” [/b] the EU is not Europe.
I love France, always have. I think it would be better outside the EU as does my French wife and many of our friends/relatives
I think UK leaving the EU will make very little difference to me retiring in France (in fact based on the draft text I think it quite likely my wife will register in UK and I will register in France sometime before April 2019/21 - why not ?)
Reciprocal free healthcare can be agreed between nations, nothing unique/explicitly reliant on the EU - this is one of many examples of things that can easily be replicated outside the EU
Right to live / retire in a European country can be granted by individual state anyway, hence my comments about Portugal which is very keen to attract people
Many things can be agreed Jamba.
Helps if you haven’t stuck your fingers in the other guy’s eyes first.
If I may gently take the mickey, I see you wish to keep one of the 4 Freedoms (slightly modified) - free movement of Jambas
😉
so, any comments about Davis' various answers to parliament on the impact studies and any impact that might have on whether we can trust anything else he promises?
I don't honestly think Davies can do anything right now. He's like a spider that's had all its legs pulled off.
But he's trying to be optimistic, although no one is really sure what he's optimistic about.
Probably optimistic about getting out of this mess and claiming his hefty pension.
I see the Russians influenced the Referendum to the tune of 72 pence 😀 😀 😀
https://news.sky.com/story/kremlin-spent-72p-on-eu-referendum-adverts-facebook-claims-11169227
That only refers to adverts Jamba.
Helps if you haven’t stuck your fingers in the other guy’s eyes first.
If I may gently take the mickey, I see you wish to keep one of the 4 Freedoms (slightly modified) - free movement of Jambas
Indeed, the EU did that releatedly in the last 10 years and they paid the price come the vote and they continue to this day.
Lisbon Treaty gave Freedom of Movement some very very significant rights. So “slightly modified” is stretching the point. I am just looking for the ability to live in another country and spend my money there thus paying local consumption and property taxes.
I am just looking for the ability to live in another country and spend my money there thus paying local consumption and property taxes.
Local consumption and property taxes usually just pays for rubbish collection and local roads and such like.
Who would you like to pay for things like health insurance? Roads? Universities to educate the people around you and create a civil society for you to enjoy? A military to keep you safe from the invading hordes?
Whilst I think opinions on government administration is important Corbyn was correct, today/tonight we have thousands of people sleeping on the streets.
Forget that other nonsense sort the real problems out.
Yeah safety standards, working time regulations, human rights, all these things are a kick in the teeth for the low paid British workers.
Lisbon Treaty gave Freedom of Movement some very very significant rights. So “slightly modified” is stretching the point. I am just looking for the ability to live in another country and spend my money there thus paying local consumption and property taxes.
Whilst trying to remove that right from others. That’s the modification. 😉
Hypocrisy?
Whilst I think opinions on government administration is important Corbyn was correct, today/tonight we have thousands of people sleeping on the streets.
Forget that other nonsense sort the real problems out.
Corbyn is a charletan, why does he whip his party in the way he does but not on this evenings vote?
He's putting ideology before pragmatism and it's completely transparent.
The man is a discrace.
PS when did the EU stick their fingers in my eyes? Or the millions in the UK who benefited from more jobs, better economy, long term peace (in Western Europe at least, the world is a big place)?
(In addition to mattyfez‘s post)
The EU not on balance being a force for good is #FalseNews.
Leaving aside the untruth (tut,tut) about doesn’t mean anything, I prefer to look at it from a different perspective I have been in many negotiations and if any of my team were foolish enough to misunderstand what was binding and not binding I would fire them for incompetence on the spot.
Was the referendum legally binding?
long term peace (in Western Europe at least)
Yep, all down to the EU, nowt at all to do with those British and American tanks sitting on the Rhine for seventy years
Was the referendum legally binding?
This should hopefully explain how legally binding the referendum was.
Spoiler alert, it's not legally binding.
[img] 
[/img]
#FakeNews #WillOfThePeople #EnimiesOfTheState
Yep, all down to the EU, nowt at all to do with those British and American tanks sitting on the Rhine for seventy years
Yeah, cause those 2500 or so German tanks also sitting on the Rhine only existed in peoples imaginations. 🙄
cause those 2500 or so German tanks also sitting on the Rhine
Who do you think our and the American ones were really there to keep in the box?
Who do you think our and the American ones were really there to keep in the box?
Having worked on a tank base in Munster, Germany in 1980 I can report that all the people I spoke to only had one perceived threat to deal with, the USSR.
I think ninfan’s making the point that NATO kept the peace in Western Europe against the threat, not the EU.
Ninfan is correct in that those NATO forces were part of the solution.
Unfortunately for ninfan he is using the same argument that the NRA use in America to suggest that lots of guns prevents gun crime.
There also needs to be a political, economic and cultural will not to use those tanks on other Western European countries.
As Edukator says that will existed in the 1980s. The equivalent will did not exist in the 1910s, a time when there was also a fair amount of armament kicking round in Europe - quite the reverse in fact. And that huge amount of armament did not prevent WWI.
So sorry ninfan if you’re resorting to an international version of the NRA gun control argument, you’ve already lost.
In which case Ninfan has missed out the French tanks in Germany, unless he includes them in "our" as part of the EU.
I have a magic way of stopping tiger attacks. I stuff pencils up my nose. I have never been attacked by a tiger which is proof it works