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Well done PM BoJo! Woohoo!
which will not be backed by grassroots Tories and your hero will have no support. Ref: Hammond
Woo, and indeed, too.
Boris has just thrown Winston Churchill’s grandson out of the Tory Party
Let’s just take a moment to digest that...
To be fair to Corbyn and labour, they have a good plan (this week) in that they won't support a GE until crash out is no longer an option.
Can't see labour asking to form a government - unless it's during the prorogue ??? Wait until even the queen is sick of Boris .. he'd have to get Swinson to agree to support no-confidence , she may demand the moon on a stick which would scupper it.
Boris can't trigger a GE - miles short of the 2/3 needed. But could easily now lose a VNC and if his opponents can decide what that coalition should consist then do they automatically get the opportunity to form it, or can he refuse to go? And if they form one, do they get the rest of the term or another 5 years? I know much has been said about a coalition forming for one purpose only and the disbanding again, but with so much talent now between the Tory exiles, the Indies, and the moderates of red, yellow, etc hues, could this be the beginning of the end of the two party majority political system?
Whilst that was the only viable intelligent and moral result tonight I don't know where it'll get us.
Got to assume we are going to have election next month.
You would imagine parties will clear the decks with agreements all over the shop to stand aside.
Nasty Nige and his gang will probably get a minimum of a DUP sized influence, maybe more. Bojo won't contest working class labour brexit supporting seat to allow Farage a clear run.
You'd really hope that in tory remain seats enough will switch to Lib Dem that at least some will switch.
Problem is the anti No Deal gang are completely split about what they want. They will never be able to form a coalition of any sort.Until labour comes out and says 'I hear you, I know you wanted out but the best divorce that can be sort is a truly shite scenario so lets stay in' this is not going anywhere. Would be interesting to know the fate of the nation now if Burnham or Cooper had got the gig in 2015.
binners
Subscriber
Boris has just thrown Winston Churchill’s grandson out of the Tory PartyLet’s just take a moment to digest that…
I don't think there is a Tory party anymore. Which is fine by me.... as long as Farage doesn't fill that vacuum.
Any chance of Chaos with Ed Miliband?
Mmm; the queen and the PM have a weekly meeting, what will be Brenda's opinion on all this ? I know she's a Tory but what will sue think?
If he implodes and snap resigns (or is pushed) who is the current deputy PM ? I've not spotted who
And I'm pretty sure that if I behaved as Cummings is reported to have done earlier I'd be sacked in the morning.
Yeah amazing job, he’s gone from a +1 majority to a -42 majority, after 49 days as PM ???
GE anyone?
The only real difference between Grandad and, say, Yvette Cooper is whether they would have supported triggering A50. The opportunity to be the opposition on principle and say 'no you idiot Tories are disorganised and not ready to go' would be, on principle, fair but at odds with the labour Brexit voters... The debate would have been more effective but would not make much odds, the maybot would have thundered on with those blinkers firmly on and we'd stil be here
The Brexiteer quarter-wit Peter Bone is having his single brain cell absolutely taken apart on BBC news at the moment
It’s comedy gold.
Feels like something big has shifted today. All self-inflicted.
^^ Watching now. He is really in trouble on there.
Lovely, lovely stuff.
PJM1974
Member
Any chance of Chaos with Ed Miliband?
Worst gameshow concept ever but, it's a night of possibilities so why not
Interesting that MENSA candidate Andrea Leadsom says that MP’s will have tomorrow to redeem themselves, then they all get immediately kicked out by a pissed Cummings.
Basically they’re a party, and government, being led by some unelected leathered bloke making in up on the hoof.
Maybe shouting at buses will become government policy?
with the
people’sradicalised pensioners and disaster capitalists support Parliament has no power.
Cummings is nothing more than a SPAD - possibly a glorified one.
His 'power' is only ceded to him trough his ministerial reporting line; in this case, Blow Job.
I think he's he's too controlled to be seen pissed and insulting perceived opponents.
What's clear is that Cummings and Johnson are shits and incompetents of the highest order.
What’s clear is that Cummings and Johnson are shits and incompetents of the highest order.
I'm not so sure about the incompetent bit as we have no idea what they really want.
Boris knew he'd fail to get a no deal through, May's advisory vote told him that. The only way that's going to happen is with a majority in parliament in favour of it, that's now possible because Bojo will call a GE. The FPTP system means a party that gets all the Brexiters on board will get a majority in parliament unless all the other parties merge. 40% of Brexiters is enough to win an election, Farage and Boris working together could get that IMO.
Macron went from nowhere to President in a year on the back of dissatisfaction with the traditional parties both right and left, Britain is ready for a similar result for a new party and I think that the Brexit party could be party to do it.
You aren't out of the woods yet even if Brexit hasn't happened yet. The underlying anger and hate is still there and getting stronger.
The difference with France is that Macron is seen as centrist, whereas BJ and Farage are extremist.
True.
UK politics used to be really simple; Labour or conservative. Brexit has added Remain or Leave to the equation. Remain and Leave embodying emotions and ideals stronger than right or left. Even if the leave ideals are extreme they are what I've been hearing from the UK for years, they may not be centrist but they are central to British group think.
UK politics used to be really simple; Labour or conservative. Brexit has added Remain or Leave to the equation. Remain and Leave embodying emotions and ideals stronger than right or left.
Good encapsulation.
Remain and Leave embodying emotions and ideals stronger than right or left.
Which is the strangest thing about it. Most people wouldn't actually notice any difference to their lives if we were in or out (I mean sovereignty, EU laws, immigration etc,. rather than the impact of leaving) yet it has now become so out of perspective that it is more important that the philosophies of Tory versus Labour where their respective policies are very noticeable (i.e. austerity)
Most would-be authoritarians amplify fairly trivial issues (for most) to be the focal point of their populism.
The roots of populism are in inequality, societal breakdown, deprivation, hopelessness. But the focus of that anger is shifted towards a smaller target which is then blamed for the wider malaise.
I'm not a tory supporter but big credit is due to the rebels for backing their principles.
#onelesstory
#nogovernmentmajorityanymore
🤪👍
Arguing with a leaver on Twitter, the "which EU laws do you object to" question came up. Got back, "the working hours directive."
Sigh.
Whilst that was the only viable intelligent and moral result tonight I don’t know where it’ll get us.
I think I've been wrong every time I've predicted something on this thread, but why stop now?
Today, the House is going to conjure up a rule which outlaws a no-deal, it's more than just an extension it will expressly mean we have to have an ordered withdrawal. This is a clever move, Labour and Tory MPs who represent Leave areas can't use words like "remain, revoke or referendum" as those are traitorous words to some, but it likely kills Brexit - the only deal on the table is May's deal, every single faction in this argument, apart from May has said it's bad.
The only way out then is a more EU-friendly deal, FOM, Single Market etc - it's stupid, but we'd likely be exchanging lower payments for any control, the EU may allow us some input by other means in exchange for payments and not pulling this crap again.
This will likely be ratified by a 2nd ref - Deal v Remain, it's honest, it's based on realty.
What can go wrong?
Corbyn could take the bait and go for a GE next month, it would be messy, the landscape has changed so much in the last few years, anything could happen. The same sort of people who told May she could win, are telling BJ the same.
BJ might find a way to force a GE with a single vote, apparently there's a rule somewhere, Bercow won't play along, but can he stop it?
The Lords, it's being downplayed, but I fear a Lords Filibuster, I think like the Queen they know they're a throw-back and if they try to flex too much they might be written out of existence, but it only takes ones.
The House ****s it all up, Nicola Sturgeon is hinting about trying to leverage a another Indie vote, Left-Labour/Momentum spokespeople are putting the boot into the LDs, their new former-Tory MP, Chuka (of course) and anyone else on twitter. In theory The LDs, Labour and SNP have a nominal majority, but I can't see them agreeing on Corbyn as PM, not unless he's willing to offer an Scotish Indie Vote and changes to our FPTP system.
If the no-no-deal bill passes, it puts the EU in a strange position. Come 31/10 they could simply offer a worse deal, no deal and no extension. We'd have to revoke. There would be riots, the press would go mad and we'd kick the can down the road again. Brexit vote 2 or possibly 3 in 2029.
This is what happens when one person’s ill-informed opinion is treated with the same degree of importance as another person’s PhD.
I had a spat with a bloke on Twitter who couldn’t name a single EU law he didn’t like, made repeated references to the “undemocratic” EU, even though we had a vote for the EU Parliament in May. Apparently it’s about “principle” and anyway there’s GATT 24, which is “simple”.
Oh and the best bit is that he’s s graduate of “The University of Life”.
Can you begin to imagine the looks on the faces this morning of the idiot Tory party members who voted Johnson into power? 😎
no-no-deal bill
I fear the hype might have got out of hand here. There is no no-no-deal bill… the bill just says that the government must win a vote in Parliament if it wants a no-deal Brexit to go ahead. The bill would allow Johnson to come back to parliament after meeting the EU in October, propose no-deal as the way forward, and then justify why in the house, answer questions from MPs, followed by a vote.
Boris’ biggest mistake so far…? His continued angry rants about any extension being “pointless”, suggesting not only can’t he get a deal by November, but even given more time he can’t get a better deal. So… it’s May’s Deal, No Deal, or no Brexit. Time for him to stop lying pretending… and either say which he supports, and seek a mandate for it, or hold a referendum and let us choose.
So… it’s May’s Deal, No Deal, or no Brexit.
Not entirely true. If you were prepared to remove some of May's red lines there may be some renegotiation to be had.
But Boris can't do this as any removal of red lines likely makes us closer to the EU and that won't wash with the, largely pro-Brexit party that's left.
They aren’t going to spend years going through all this again. The Withdrawal Agreement is the only game in town now. Changing the political declaration to have a commitment to closer ties than it currently suggests is entirely doable… but meaningless… any future parliament could just tear that up.
A whole world of different relationships with the EU/EEA are still possible after we leave… but our actual exit only really has two forms now (and there is the third option of not exiting, of course).
Sorry if this has already been asked, but...
If no-no-deal is voted through and becomes law then an election is called.
If by some bizarre goings on Boris won that election with a decent mojority what is to stop him bringing the no-no-deal legislation back to parliament and getting it repealed?
If by some bizarre goings on Boris won that election with a decent mojority what is to stop him bringing the no-no-deal legislation back to parliament and getting it repealed?
There's nothing to stop that. No government can bind future governments.
If by some bizarre goings on Boris won that election with a decent mojority what is to stop him bringing the no-no-deal legislation back to parliament and getting it repealed?
Nowt and thats probably what he would do. The point is to stop him sneaking through the no deal brexit after parliament is dissoluted for elections and hence unable to stop him.
For some odd reason they dont trust someone sacked twice for lying promises about not doing so.
So… it’s May’s Deal, No Deal, or no Brexit.
Not entirely true. If you were prepared to remove some of May’s red lines there may be some renegotiation to be had.
But then there'd be no point in Brexit. For the majority of leavers removing freedom of movement was what Brexit was all about. It's the basis of of May's redlines.
But then what's to stop another no no-deal bill?
There never was any point to brexit
Brexit vote 2 or possibly 3 in 2029.
No-one's going to put us through this shitstorm again.
There never was any point to brexit
And yet the country voted for it, and here we are now in a total mess.
I honestly can't see a way forward at the moment 🙁
The point is to stop him sneaking through the no deal brexit after parliament is dissoluted for elections and hence unable to stop him.
It really isn't. That would mean they think the first few weeks after a no deal Brexit will be fine and dandy and likely to be a good loam for Boris to grow an election victory.
Boris needs an election before Brexit [1]. He has no incentive to wait until immediately after Brexit for an election.
[1] Or (if it were possible which it isn't) several years after.
I honestly can’t see a way forward at the moment
An election where a party gets a majority to do *something* is the way out. The problem is the way things are structurally in the Uk electoral system a wafer thin majority or minority government are looking pretty much inevitable for the forseeable future.
Yep brexit has broken britain
the brexiteers have shown to be utterly clueless
Im still certain Johnson will find a way to run down the clock, we'll crash out without a deal and then the real hardship starts
on top of that we get to spend 10+ years repeating the next 3 years of bitter arguing over our future relationship (remember the WA was supposed to be the easy part) & 40+ FTAs
and with unstable minority or low majority governments too, oh and trumps trade war is helping to drag the world into recession as we kick our own economy in the nuts......
And yet the country voted for it, and here we are now in a total mess.
I honestly can’t see a way forward at the moment
Brexit vote 2 or possibly 3 in 2029.
No-one’s going to put us through this shitstorm again.
2nd ref is the only way forward, however bad it gets, a unilateral A50 revoke would be a disaster, unless there's a huge public swing towards it, it's not enough to swing 52-48 in favour of remain.
The Brexiteers and their press will have a field day, they'll blame traitors and the EU for stealing our freedom and anti-EU sentiment will only grown stronger. The rules say we can't start A50 again for 10 years, but it might allow a Ultra Brexit Party to gain control and do what all those red faced idiots have always wanted "show Johnny Foreigner two fingers and all that".
There should now be the numbers in Westminster to push that through, but a withdrawal agreement needs to be on the table, no more unicorns - it's Deal or Remain, or Deal v No Deal if they fancy, that ones unwinnable.
Both sides have been shown to be utterley clueless.
An election will be stalemate as their are too many competing parties on the remain side. So unless all but Labour withdrew from putting up candidates no side will win. Possibly Boris would do a deal with Farage.
An election where a party gets a majority to do *something* is the way out.
But we've seen that even if a party has a majority that doesn't mean it can rely on its MPs to vote for its proposals.
But we’ve seen that even if a party has a majority that doesn’t mean it can rely on its MPs to vote for its proposals.
In a fresh election only candidates prepared to follow the party line (whichever party) would be selected. Boris has already started this process!
Yep brexit has broken britain
I think it was probably already broken. Brexit has simply exposed this fact to the whole world in a spectacular way.
In a fresh election only candidates prepared to follow the party line (whichever party) would be selected. Boris has already started this process!
narrowing a party from a broad church is only going to kill the party long term
4 of the MPs that defected last night only did so because they found Moggs speech so arrogant
This is what happens when one person’s ill-informed opinion is treated with the same degree of importance as another person’s PhD.
I have often found that those with "qualifications" can be just as idiotic as the ill-informed once they are outside their particular field of expertise. Don't judge how "intelligent" people are just by qualifications, wait for them to open their mouths and see what sh*t falls out.
However, This has been the BBC's problem with balance when it comes to Brexit. As demonstrated in the last few years, no matter how hard they tried, there simply wasn't one expert from the Brexit bus, so it ended up with a multitude of loons and crackpots.
Johnsons first, and possibly last, PMQ's should be interesting
I'd actually like Corbyn to completely ignore Brexit and hit him with questions about rural bus services 😀
But we’ve seen that even if a party has a majority that doesn’t mean it can rely on its MPs to vote for its proposals.
We haven't had a single party with a decent workable majority since 2005 when Blair had 67.
The Cons/Libdems between them had a useful majority, I guess.
Since then nobody has had a decent workable majority. Half a dozen rebels can wreak havok and punishing rebels when you have a wafer thin majority is neat impossible as May found out.
In a fresh election only candidates prepared to follow the party line (whichever party) would be selected. Boris has already started this process!
The brexit party's high water mark was what, some 5 million votes in the European elections? Would those who traditionally voted tory trust Boris and go back to voting for the party?
What is often forgotten about is the significant Tory voters who are remainers.
While the tories will focus on the usual Corbyn not to be trusted line(one of the reasons he shouldn't be Labour leader), Corbyn has finally drawn attention to Johnson's lapdog relationship with Trump.
2nd ref is the only way forward
It will solve nothing for all the reasons stated ad infinitum on STW and all over the media.
Oof. Boris turning around and arguing with hecklers on his own benches!
But then there’d be no point in Brexit.
Ah, was that the sound of the other shoe falling? We've been saying this for a couple of years, this is almost certainly why May's deal got rejected three times.
ION,
But then what’s to stop another no no-deal bill?
Nothing, except whoever are our MPs at the time. As it should be.
People voted for all sorts of positive Brexits. The government delivering them a no deal Brexit, with the damage that they know that entails, and telling voters “tough luck, you voted for this, so we’re going to neuter your MPs so that they can’t stop us” would be an utter failure of democracy. If the government wants a no deal Brexit, it can ask MPs to vote for it, so that their voters can take that into account when they next deal with them or are asked to vote for them. Pretending that a No Deal Brexit is some kind of default, or accident, rather than political choice, has got very very old.
It will solve nothing
It won’t unite the country… but it would give voters the chance to head off further damage. Okay, “damage” sounds loaded… how about “change”. The preparation to Leave has, er “changed” the country, but it is nothing compared to the “change” people will be experiencing once we do actually leave… especially without the offramp of a transition period and without a government seeking to quickly rebuild relationships with the rest of Europe… and instead with one tub thumping for a deal with a Trump led USA that the government’s own figures suggest will deliver bugger all benefit to the people of the UK.
It will solve nothing for all the reasons stated ad infinitum on STW and all over the media.
Then it should just be revoked and the two main party's accept they won't get a majority in Parliament due to the wrath incurred by the minority of hard brexiters, and start focusing on sharing power in coalitions from now on.
Brexit shares a lot in common with the French Revolution, the Revolutionaries didn't know how to end the revolution and ended up eating each other, eventually a status quo of sorts returned, much like what is happening in Italy at the moment.
Bojo awful in PMQs.
It looks like JC does not want an early/snap election I wonder why 😄
It will solve nothing for all the reasons stated ad infinitum on STW and all over the media.
It'll either put paid to the "will of the people" argument (if remain wins) or kill stone dead any hope of ever revoking (if they don't).
Neither of which will "solve" anything, agreed, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have any effect.
.
It looks like JC does not want an election I wonder why
Because although he wants Brexit he doesn't want a no deal Brexit.
It's pretty obvious really.
Sorry for my previous post. I’ll delete it.
Because although he wants Brexit he doesn’t want a no deal Brexit.
It’s pretty obvious really.
He can always let the voters choose by saying he does not want No Deal. Make it clear. How hard is that?
Tories can say whatever they wish and also let the voters choose.
Sorry for my previous post. I’ll delete it.
All fine here. Make nothing off it. Be yourself.
It looks like JC does not want an early/snap election I wonder why
Probably for the reasons already well discussed.
Thank ****.
This is a timely reminder about the Killfile. It’s very effective in blocking nonsense.
Yeah, we get it pjm...
Probably for the reasons already well discussed.
Thank ****.
PM BoJo in PMQ (few mins ago) just said Labour will let EU dictates the timescale to Brexit. Why not let people choose?
Moving on, Boris seems to be struggling to be coherent and consistent today. At least Jezza, not to mention a few rebels seem to have studied the Johnson playbook over the summer.
Look, instead of having to install killfiles, how about someone else hide his posts for me? It would work on mobile then as well.
Johnson was well out of his depth yesterday (I’ve not seen today)… no wonder he wants Parliament to sit as little as possible now he is PM. The public need to see him attempting to fill his role, and attempting to explain his policies to people who are prepared and able to ask the pertinent questions of him.
Bojo is a first class **** and deserves humiliation.
Also there was a ERG bod on bbc news saying he wouldn't vote for TMs deal even without the backstop.
John Bercow I can't help it I like him (as speaker) he is body slamming Javid right now.
I think a lot of people would be far more accepting of the result of a 2nd referendum on the basis that far more is known about what brexit might entail, plus if it really is the "will of the people" then so be it. The difficulty is what 2 options to actually put on the ballot paper remain/deal/no deal. I don't think a general election will solve anything.
The bill would allow Johnson to come back to parliament after meeting the EU in October, propose no-deal as the way forward, and then justify why in the house, answer questions from MPs, followed by a vote.
Why would it get through?
Look, instead of having to install killfiles, how about someone else hide his posts for me? It would work on mobile then as well.
You want the moderators to impose that kind of censorship?
how about someone else hide his posts for me? It would work on mobile then as well.
I've been saying for years, we could really use a bozo filter.
The difficulty is what 2 options to actually put on the ballot paper remain/deal/no deal.
It's not difficult at all, as I've said before. "No deal" is not an option anyone should be choosing, it's what happens if we run out of options. The only people who want it either don't understand what it means, or understand perfectly what it means and stand to get very very rich indeed from it.
A vote should be simply, "this is what we've negotiated, do you want it or not?"
Putting a "no deal" vote to the public would be absolute insanity, even by the high standards we've set so far.
I think a lot of people would be far more accepting of the result of a 2nd referendum on the basis that far more is known about what brexit might entail, plus if it really is the “will of the people” then so be it. The difficulty is what 2 options to actually put on the ballot paper remain/deal/no deal. I don’t think a general election will solve anything.
IMO the original question is there to leave room for Parliament to debate the meaning behind Leave or Remain, i.e. the technicality of it, then perhaps let the people choose again in election based on whatever political parties advocate.
Asking for another referendum is not the answer.
The original question is as below:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):
Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union
You want the moderators to impose that kind of censorship?
It would be really useful for the select few on about their 15th life ban who keep just creating new accounts when they get kicked out. Whilst chewkw may be basically an Abject Bollocks Generator, I have no appetite for that degree of content censoring.