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A couple of interviews this morning on BBC, one with Dominic Grieve who went through the various points logically and one with Dominic Raab who basically answered with a series of veiled threats: "letting Corbyn take power"; etc.
There was also an interview with a backbench MP Sam something or other who said that the last time he'd been contacted by any of the government whips was over a month ago during the parliamentary recess. This suggests that there's no explicit removal of the whip or deselection but it's all being done at arms length, lots of "could" and "possibly" being bandied about, letting the press feed off rumours in the absence of actual statements. That way Cummings et al. can say, truthfully, that there was no order to deselect remain supporting tories but the local associations will have "got the message"
This is what Brexit has turned this country into with its emboldening and normalising of extremist politics. It’s tragic
It is tragic, but blaming it all on brexit is a bit too easy. We are where we are because for decades ordinary people (I'm not going to use the phrase 'working class' cos it'll only result in a tsunami of Monty Python memes) have been ignored. They've seen their incomes reduce in real terms, employment protections and rights removed, public services degraded or cut, benefits reduced, and opportunities for their kids to climb the ladder disappear. And all the while they watched as a tiny few at the top reward themselves with unjustifiable riches while escaping their obligation to contribute to society. If that's what you call non-extremist, then it's little wonder people have turned to the opposite.
If the LibDems don't score big time out of this debacle, they're incompetents.
If I have to watch another Daily Mail reading pensioner sat in a cafe saying BoJo is great and we should get on with Brexit I'll cry.
That's quite true dazh, and the eu has been scapegoated by the Tories so they can make it look as though they are acting on behalf of those "ordinary people" whilst actually making a power grab which will result in an even greater rift in society.
If I have to watch another Daily Mail reading pensioner sat in a cafe saying BoJo is great and we should get on with Brexit I’ll cry.
Does no-one ever ask them WHY?
I agree with pretty much all of that Daz (oh god, it’s happened again)
I’m not saying that Brexit created the problem, I’m saying that the tactics employed by people like Cummings and Farage (which they’re up to again) have normalised extremism.
These people are deliberately stoking potentially violent division, for their own ends, with not a single care about the long term implications
I said a little while back, there's no way we'll see a no deal brexit under Boris because there's no chance he'll go down with the ship. If it happens, he'll be a long long way away, the only thing Boris cares about is Boris.
Headlines all over the tabloids today, "try to block brexit and I'll call a general election."
Called it. Come Halloween, Boris will be in Costa Del Miles Away with a sangria and a pig's head.
and the eu has been scapegoated by the Tories
Yes they have, but the EU are not entirely innocent. They may not be as ruthless as the tories, but people are not stupid. They see the same things that are happening here happening in Europe. The likes of Juncker blocking measures to prevent corporate tax avoidance, and the merciless treatment of the Greeks tells them all they need to know. The tories, Trump, The EU, Corporations, Civil Servants, and the media are all different sides to same coin in the eyes of ordinary people. Brexit may be an attempt to blame one (the EU) and absolve the other (the tories), but this works both ways, which is why remainer attempts to do the opposite are ringing hollow.
These people are deliberately stoking potentially violent division, for their own ends, with not a single care about the long term implications
Yes they are. History has taught us time and again that this is what happens when 'normal' politics stops working for 'normal' people. Which is why I'm always amazed, and intensely annoyed, when people defend it.
We are where we are because for decades ordinary people (I’m not going to use the phrase ‘working class’ cos it’ll only result in a tsunami of Monty Python memes) have been ignored. They’ve seen their incomes reduce in real terms, employment protections and rights removed, public services degraded or cut, benefits reduced, and opportunities for their kids to climb the ladder disappear. And all the while they watched as a tiny few at the top reward themselves with unjustifiable riches while escaping their obligation to contribute to society.
Yes, and yet somehow people still keep on voting Tory. People need educating on what Tory and Labour actually stand for, and how they can make a difference collectively. Too many people go 'ooh I don't do politics' well - politics does you, so you'd better show an interest or nothing's going to improve.
but people are not stupid
They may be poorly informed though.
The tories, Trump, The EU, Corporations, Civil Servants, and the media are all different sides to same coin in the eyes of ordinary people.
As I said, poorly informed.
Brexit may be an attempt to blame one (the EU) and absolve the other (the tories), but this works both ways, which is why remainer attempts to do the opposite are ringing hollow.
What does this even mean?
The likes of Juncker blocking measures to prevent corporate tax avoidance
If people think that Johnson &co are going to start clamping down on tax avoidance after a no deal then they are even more idiotic than I thought.
Re Greece - didn't the EU bail Greece out ultimately? How is that merciless? Surely showing no mercy would have been telling them to **** off?
Vox pops seem to be universally depressing on the media. They seem to only go to the leave voting constituencies in the deprived areas where they are most likely to be even more shafted by a No Deal and find unwavering but unexplainable support there.
DazH point of how we have got there is true but the Vox Pop doesn't articulate that.
If people think that Johnson &co are going to start clamping down on tax avoidance after a no deal then they are even more idiotic than I thought.
Yes I thought it was the EU that are passing into tax avoidance legislation due to come into effect on - ooh look, 1st November.
Does no-one ever ask them WHY?
I'm down to my last Leave Facebook friend, I've been asking for three years, and the answer's been changing for three years. Any talk of trade benefit beyond the very non-specific "opportunity" has long since gone, we're pretty much just down to immigration and respecting democracy - interestingly, he admitted last week that he didn't know we controlled non-EU migration, but he still wants the democracy of the referendum respected (the 54% vote for parties that ruled out no deal in 2017, he's less bothered about). We also had the paradox last week of MEPs being unelected, but Farage's election as an MEP is an adequate democratic stand-in for his failure to be elected as an MP.
And if people in Greece paid their taxes in full, they would have faired a lot better.
These people are deliberately stoking potentially violent division, for their own ends, with not a single care about the long term implications
Short of burning down Westminster the parallels with the final years of the Weimar Republic scare the hell out of me.
I don't think they're stoking violent, devisive, xenophobic extremist attitudes with no care for the long term implications, I think they're deliberately normalising them, they're well aware what those outcomes are and they're quite happy with them.
Re Greece – didn’t the EU bail Greece out ultimately? How is that merciless? Surely showing no mercy would have been telling them to **** off?
No, they kicked this can down the road again. They know, and the IMF agreed, that the Greek debt is unsustainable, and the only way to actually help is to write it off. But this was politically impossible for Merkel, so they impose more pain.
Surely showing no mercy would have been telling them to **** off?
Maybe but then good luck with the German and French banks (plus British to a lesser degree) who would have had to pay the price for their foolish lending practices.
Maybe but then good luck with the German and French [s] banks [/s] (plus British to a lesser degree) populace who would have had to pay the price for their banks' foolish lending practices.
FTFY.
Ahh… the Greece Squirrel. Probably the most popular/regular diversion in this (over)long running thread.
Remember, we are not Greece, we don’t have the same membership terms as Greece… we have our own unique position with opt outs galore.
Although this final season of Brexit is very entertaining
Some angry Doris turning up with a couple of dragons and putting us all out of our misery is probably the best we can hope for at this point.
Sorry..... spoilers
Some angry Doris turning up with a couple of dragons and putting us all out of our misery is probably the best we can hope for at this point.
you called?
Some angry Doris turning up with a couple of dragons and putting us all out of our misery is probably the best we can hope for at this point.
you called?
I've made my position quite clear: the immolation - bring it
I wonder. In the event of a snap election actually being held then, as usual, I think Mr. Farage holds the key. If he decides to field candidates everywhere, I reckon the Leave vote will be largely split and the Tories overall share will be diminished, as will Labours as many hard core Brexiteers who have traditionally voted Labour seem quite happy to vote for his party as we now know. However, I am not so sure those same hard core Labour Brexit types could stomach voting for the Tories. So in the case that Farage decides not to field candidates, in order to not split the leave vote, I wonder if those same hard core "working class" Brexiteers would in fact go back to voting Labour or even not bother to vote. So in either scenario, the Tories may not do as well as they think they might.
Just thinking out load here BTW
Seems that the prorogation court case is uncovering some interesting nuggets:
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1168827437226106880
Ahh… the Greece Squirrel. Probably the most popular/regular diversion in this (over)long running thread.
The thing we have to remember about Greece though, right, is that pre-referendum precisely no-one in the UK gave two shits about it. It only became an issue when someone realised that they could weaponise it as a "yes but Greece" anti-EU argument. Few people actually, really, care still but it's a handy stick.
the Greek debt is unsustainable, and the only way to actually help is to write it off. But this was politically impossible for Merkel, so they impose more pain.
So it was domestic German politics that forced the EU's hand, not the EU being shits?
Ok got it. It's almost as if it's more complicated than it first appears.. who'd have thought?
So it was domestic German politics that forced the EU’s hand
Just like the German car lobby will save brexit.
I don't think Boris wants Brexit - he is an intelligent man (or he has intelligent advisors...) he's looking to shift blame to anyone but him.
I don’t think Boris wants Brexit
It's not about Brexit, it's about being in power for the next 5 years. If that means dead bodies in the streets, he'll take it.
Boris, Farage, JRM and many more benefit financially from Brexit, Boris also has a chance of it helping him stay in power if he can blame the resulting carnage on the EU/remainers. He absolutely wants Brexit - to the extent he doesn't care whether it's with a deal or not.
I'm all confused now ...we were definitely heading towards no deal because that was what Boris wanted last week, and previously.
It's almost as if we can't reach consensus.
Anybody else liking the (irony?) that this last ditch attempt to save democracy from a Tory Junta is happening exactly eighty years after we went to war in defence of another European nation's liberty?
Perhaps Poland could invade, and save us from ourselves.
It’s not about Brexit, it’s about being in power for the next 5 years. If that means dead bodies in the streets, he’ll take it.
Precisely - a no deal might keep him in power, but it'll be a lot of work to stay on top of the results of that...
Although to be fair apparently it's on of the questions on the Eton entry exam...
https://twitter.com/alanferrier/status/1168184926895820801
Corbyn to make announcement at 6pm regarding a ‘change’ in Labour policy
No doubt he’s about to do exactly what Cummings wants him to do. Fall into the elephant trap with all the big neon flashing lights and the massive sign saying ‘ELEPHANT TRAP’
Well, Blair warned him not to do that, therefore he has too, doesn’t he?
Perhaps Poland could invade, and save us from ourselves.
Maybe they are...
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/military-id-tags-what-who-has-my-niece-found/
Corbyn to make announcement at 6pm regarding a ‘change’ in Labour policy
"Despite our previous insistence all options remain on the table we've taken the decision to take both any tory deal and no deal off the table. As I'm Surrey can appreciate this is a seismic shift in our policy, our membership has made clear that these options aren't acceptable and we have listened. To be clear this means we support a labour negotiated deal as any such deal will absolutely ensure a fairer, better Britain outside the EU, and, if we can't have that, we'll support a few other things we can't deliver too, including but not limited too another referendum with remain as an option"
The court case in Scotland is where the action is.
Yes they have, but the EU are not entirely innocent ... and the merciless treatment of the Greeks ... The tories, Trump, The EU, Corporations, Civil Servants, and the media are all different sides to same coin in the eyes of ordinary people.
Firstly, Greece has nothing to do with the UK. They are cited a lot, but what happened to Greece doesn't even apply to us as we're not part of the eurozone. If the best example of us being shafted by the EU is an imaginary scenario that hasn't even happened yet, or even likely to happen, then I'm personally not too worried about it.
Secondly. The entire situation was caused by the Greek government, when they lied (which they later admitted to) about their economic figures so that they would qualify to enter the eurozone. It wasn't sustainable from the start and they placed the EU into an impossible position.
Thirdly... They still remain in the EU. They know that even with austerity, they are better with than without.
Our austerity is entirely down to our own government, and given all the measures they introduced when they came into power it is no surprise we find ourselves where we do now. Brexit has already costs tens of billions; huge amounts of money that will shake the economy for years to come even if it ends tomorrow. And yet people fear labour getting into power because they'd supposedly spend money we don't have. Yes, there's a feeling of discontent amongst many people, and it's not about Brexit. It's not about Brexit at all. Brexit was a creation, used to take advantage of that discontent, latched onto by the media and privately funded social media campaigns. The distortion of truth and spread of misinformation throughout is a huge concern, not just for current political questions, but the future of politics entirely.
And this is stuff we know. It's obvious. Right there clear as day. By focusing on Brexit, we're focusing on the wrong problem. Whichever way we go on Brexit now there will be discontent, and way more so than we started with. There are no easy answers to the misinformation and subsequent distrust. But the extremist nut-jobs currently in No. 10 are really not helping by repeatedly spouting lies and holding no accountability for them.
Meanwhile, throughout all of this, the EU have always been welcoming, rational, and constructive. They've been the only sane voice for the past 3 years.
I feel completely and utterly perplexed as to why people don't see that.
It's a question of integrity.
And we have none left.
No doubt he’s about to do exactly what Cummings wants him to do. Fall into the elephant trap with all the big neon flashing lights and the massive sign saying ‘ELEPHANT TRAP’
I think you are miles off the mark @binners - all the opposition parties seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet at last - and I fully expect Corbyn to be behind sorting an A50 extension to avoid a No Deal exit (at least for now) before enabling a General Election.
The likes of Juncker blocking measures to prevent corporate tax avoidance, and the merciless treatment of
You do know that wasn’t the EU right? The EU was trying to clamp down on tax avoidance, whilst Juncker was acting in his own parties interest as PM of Luxembourg.
Btw, austerity was voted for by the working classes.
There has never been any democratic deficit whereby the working classes are not represented.
It’s just that the Turkeys consistently vote for Christmas.
I don’t think Boris wants Brexit
I genuinely don't think he cares that much either way but, unlike May, Johnson sees Brexit as an opportunity rather than a problem. Not an opportunity to improve the country or to lead us to "sunlit uplands" but an opportunity to seize power.
Johnson isn't daft, sure he's not the erudite Classical scholar he sometimes like to potray but nor is the bumbling tousled toff either. He is mendacious and ruthless and with Brexit he identified there is potentially a solid constituency of voters willing to blindly back him to get Brexit over the line. He just needs to triangulate his rhetoric to capture enough votes. Brexity enough to win over some of the loons from the Brexit party, not mad enough to scare off traditional Conservative voters.
Once Brexit is done the outcome is of almost no importance as far as Johnson is concerned. If its a complete and utter shitshow, well its not his fault, it was the will of the people and those nasty people in the EU didn't play fair. If its any better than the worse predictions then that is obviously a huge victory for Britain's plucky Dunkirk spirit and one in the eye for Project Fear and all the Remoaners.
Whichever way we go on Brexit now there will be discontent, and way more so than we started with.
Heartbreakingly true.
There are no easy answers to the misinformation and subsequent distrust.
And any hard answers will never gain any traction while those in politics in powerful positions ignore the problem (because the misinformation is working for them, and they know the distrust will be aimed at their political opponents just as much as at them).
Rebel Tory MP Philip Lee has dramatically defected to the Liberal Democrats – depriving Boris Johnson of his Commons majority.
The pro-EU former minister walked across the Commons chamber, to sit with Jo Swinson’s party, meaning the prime minister now leads a minority government.
Messy lol!
I was wrong about defections…
What a way to defect! In the middle of Johnsons speech.
Brexit keeps on bringing the theatre doesn't it?
So off went the Emperor in procession under his splendid canopy. Everyone in the streets and the windows said, "Oh, how fine are the Emperor's new clothes! Don't they fit him to perfection? And see his long train!" Nobody would confess that he couldn't see anything, for that would prove him either unfit for his position, or a fool. No costume the Emperor had worn before was ever such a complete success.
"But he hasn't got anything on," a little child said.
"Did you ever hear such innocent prattle?" said its father. And one person whispered to another what the child had said, "He hasn't anything on. A child says he hasn't anything on."
"But he hasn't got anything on!" the whole town cried out at last.
The Emperor shivered, for he suspected they were right. But he thought, "This procession has got to go on." So he walked more proudly than ever, as his noblemen held high the train that wasn't there at all.
Brilliant lol.
Centerists doing what Corbyn couldn’t do, removing the Tories majority. Now if Corbyn is clever, he won’t agree to a GE.
What a way to defect! In the middle of Johnsons speech
I wonder if I can post him a beer to his commons office
Holy crap!
the prime minister now leads a minority government.
So... what happens next? Does that, like, trigger anything?
At last, some good news.
Christ, that entire thread is worth reading. Quite, quite remarkable.
So… what happens next? Does that, like, trigger anything?
Well I imagine JC just made a bit of a mess if that's what you mean but effectively no, he's now held to ransom by Parliament, he's unable to pass legislation without cross party support, he can't prevent the opposing parties ammending any legislation he puts forward if they can agree amongst themselves.
Essentially, if he's not granted a GE he's parliament's petulant little puppet. They can have a VoNC he's unlikely to survive but why bother. Just pull his strings for three years.
(it's sort of the best of all worlds if you're not a fan of JC either. Neither of them is now able to do any significant damage without the agreement of either the SNP or Lib Dems, so that's the two ardently remain parties in Parliament. Shame.)
Christ, that entire thread is worth reading.
Lots of good little jokes… but this quite dry bit has properly cheered me up…
https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/1168900181217153024?s=21
Johnson will be many more seats short of a majority when he follows through with his threat to withdraw and expel Tory rebels tonight
I “think” the threat is to stop them standing in the next election… not sure he or his (not actually Conservative) people making these threats can actually kick them out of the party. They have no reason to support him in any way from here on in anyway…
Can Boris call a vote of no confidence in himself?
I have no confidence in his ability to do that!
Blackford always hits the right note… it’s like a bonus PMQs…
https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/1168903835055734785?s=21
Please, please, please, please, please don’t let Jeremy Corbyn **** this up now by being stupid enough to call for a general election?
for me in to hell with the torys
"Quite apart from my obvious prejudices for, you know, reason and liberalism and stuff, I honestly thought Johnson would be so much better at this stuff. Struck by how poor he is."
He's getting a right kicking, it seems. They're all lining up for a swing now.
He really is shit. I often have misplaced sympathy in these circumstances but he's brought all this on himself so **** him
not sure he or his (not actually Conservative) people making these threats can actually kick them out of the party.
Hammond's local party pointedly re-adopted him as their candidate last night.
Others though may be more at risk where they have been taken over by UKIP/brexit company.
I “think” the threat is to stop them standing in the next election… not sure he or his (not actually Conservative) people making these threats can actually kick them out of the party. They have no reason to support him in any way from here on in anyway…
By 'removing the whip' they're sort of kicked out, but lets be honest, Boris isn't the most popular man, well not even in his own house, but certainly not in Westminster.
He called his MPs bluff, and they didn't blink, what was a threat at the time, isn't anymore.
I suspect when this vote passes he's all but dead politically, especially if Corbyn doesn't **** this up and walk into the GE trap.
If Corbyn has been honest in recent weeks, then he and the rest of the Commons have the power to put this all back to the people, go with Ref2, an honest ref - it's not 'the same' v 'anything you want it to be', it's a starker choice, 'the same' v either a deal that makes us weaker and poorer, or no-deal which is worse.
Please, please, please, please, please don’t let Jeremy Corbyn **** this up now by being stupid enough to call for a general election?
If he can't **** it up - no one can...
I think Corbyn, and the other party leaders and key MPs, have everything lined up, for now, I don’t think he’s going to get panicky with his trigger finger at all… although I expect he’s getting a bit over excited… things are moving fast. I think you can safely concentrate on Johnson this week @binners. Give it a go…
The Lib Dems just got two new MPs in the space of as many minutes.
— Ian Dunt (@IanDunt) September 3, 2019
Rebel Tory MP Philip Lee has dramatically defected to the Liberal Democrats – depriving Boris Johnson of his Commons majority.
The pro-EU former minister walked across the Commons chamber, to sit with Jo Swinson’s party, meaning the prime minister now leads a minority government.
👍 As predicted the restructuring has started just like in any large organisation. 😀
Going into the next GE we will see roughly four main camps and all of them will try to consolidate power by forming alliances. They have to.
Conservative - No deal
Labour - With a deal
Lib Dem - with a deal <- Lib Dem will loose their identity when they are populated with Labour and Tories defectors etc.
Brexit party - No deal
Others - mixed bags.
In the end it will go back to the square one similar to the result of the referendum. 😄
The prospect of Boris sat in number ten, powerless and impotent, at the mercy of the commons is just absolutely bloody brilliant! Technically, that could go on for years. I hope they actually do that to him just so we can all have a good laugh about it 😂
I would have loved to see the look on Dominic Cummings face when he lost his majority!
Scotland's had their pound of flesh, NI's had a go. Then we get this:
Sir Desmond Swayne, visible drifting into outright lunacy, standings up and shouts: "I once took a train to Manchester to negotiate the price and purchase of a Morris Minor. Having only purchased a one way ticket it wasn't a sensible negotiating strategy was it?"
I'm sure that sounded very witty in his head. Perhaps the other people in there told him so.
🤣🤣🤣 This guy's a bloody legend.
If he can’t **** it up – no one can…
I'm suddenly, chillingly reminded of Tucker's Law.
Now what we need is the rescue dog to very publicly be taken back as they don't feel BJ can provide a "strong and stable" home environment at the moment. Right before a house move isn't the time to adopt.
I’d love to see the humiliation of the Blonde shite, having to go to Europe begging for an extension.
Out.
Out
In.