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dazh
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And I suppose you can’t see any reason why leavers shouldn’t just accept this? This is exactly the line of argument the no deal nutters are using to conflate a no deal brexit with upholding the referendum result. Most people who voted leave didn’t want no deal, but they do expect the result to be honoured,
Maybe, maybe not. But the thing is, it's not important what "most" leave voters want- because practically all of them have to want it to retain the majority. If even 4% of leave voters don't want no deal brexit, then that's the difference between "the people's will" and not.
So do 96% of leave voters want no deal, or any brexit as long as it's brexit? Incredibly unlikely.
A majority of a majority can be a minority. And there is the rub… they know they are pushing through something with only minority support (in the country at wide, as well as in parliament) which is why another referendum or a vote of MPs to get a mandate for No Deal (or any particular deal) isn’t their way forward… “interpreting” the 2016 vote is. But, that minority is very likely to reward them with a general election win… so from their point of view, their logic is sound.
^^ Bunch of hypocritical scumbags eh?
And I suppose you can’t see any reason why leavers shouldn’t just accept this?
You know what?
At this point, I couldn't give a shit what they will or won't accept.
I'm getting bored of saying this now because it doesn't seem to ever penetrate your skull, but the UK is a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. What they want doesn't matter. What you want doesn't matter. What I want doesn't matter. Parliament are our representatives, not our delegates. It is LITERALLY their job to best serve the country, not cowtow to the whims of its populace.
And I could explain, again, why your "compromise" is no such thing because it's something neither side wants, and propose a compromise that actually is a real compromise, but remind me, what's the definition of insanity?
You make some good points about why people think what they think and why things have panned out the way they have, but your conclusions are deeply deeply flawed and if you did, genuinely, vote remain and still stand behind that now then your leaver apologist schtick is an embarrassment to yourself.
Because as much as you try to get people onside with your "hey, Theresa's brexit is better than no deal" you're convincing precisely no-one, and if you think we're going to just roll over and go "yeah, OK then" then you're barking.
Christ, at this point I don't even know why I'm bothering to reply. You don't acknowledge or engage, you don't want a discussion, you just keep trotting out the same deceit.
Theresa's Brexit means nought what she negotiated was a withdrawal agreement, we don't know what terms we will interact with the EU on in the future even if TM's WA was to be voted through. Its crazy really, we're not even half way through this whole fuq-up.
I absolutely do not want a second referendum. I think the MPs should just wear there mistake and revoke A50.
A lot of people are just wanting Brexit over with and Boris seems to be the man to get it done but if these same people realised No Deal is just the start of a clusterfuq of more negotiations etc maybe A50 might be tolerated
I absolutely do not want a second referendum. I think the MPs should just wear there mistake and revoke A50.
Problem is that revoking wouldn't be legitimate in the eyes of leavers. That's why it needs a referendum, with no deal or remain on.
Cougar
Subscriber
It is LITERALLY their job to best serve the country, not cowtow to the whims of its populace.
And there it is. As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy; pretty hard to get a better example of the nonsensical Remoaner thought process.
Sooner we leave the better. Dragging this on any longer just makes the Remoaners more entrenched in their bizarre views.
I absolutely do not want a second referendum. I think the MPs should just wear there mistake and revoke A50.
Then the Brexit party will gain serious ground in the following election and split the Tory vote possibly reducing the party to a political insignificance or enough that labour gets a majority over them.
Boris and the Tory MPs won’t let that happen as the Tory party’s the vehicle that’s paying their wages so er we get shafted so they get to keep a job.
Sooner we leave the better. Dragging this on any longer just makes the Remoaners more entrenched in their bizarre views.
Oh aye. Not wanting to run your country into the ground is bizarre now is it?
And there it is. As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy; pretty hard to get a better example of the nonsensical Remoaner thought process.
But Cougars right, I’m not seeing your point.
In the 18th century the philosopher Edmund Burke argued that MPs should not be beholden to their constituent’s wishes, and be free to exercise their own judgement in Parliament:
“His unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
In doing so MPs are freed to act in the national interest, rather than simply fighting to improve the lot of those in their constituency.
I’m not agreeing with it but this ‘trustee model of representation’ is a thing.
Dragging this on any longer just makes the Remoaners more entrenched in their bizarre views.
Best expressed by that notorious remoaner MP Edmund Burke in his speech Speech to the Electors of Bristol
It's pointless arguing the toss with fervent brexiteers, they deal in emotion, not facts, reason and logic. I think it comes from years of being fed bile every morning by the right wing press, that shit will screw you up
And there it is. As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy.
Of course! Democracy best served by suspending parliament in case they disagree with the executive's chosen course of action! Nothing says democracy like literally stopping it in it's tracks!
Jesus Christ on a bendy bus! You'd think you couldn't make this shit up, however...
It’s pointless arguing the toss with fervent brexiteers, they deal in emotion, not facts, reason and logic. I think it comes from years of being fed bile every morning by the right wing press, that shit will screw you up
This +1.
This is how stupidity is made into, first a virtue, then a weapon.
“You’ve worked hard for your suburban semi with its superb little lawn, but if Labour get in they’ll give it to a drug addict or an asylum seeker”.
Little England.
Here's the cold hard reality that Brexiteers need to understand and need to be told.
We need immigrants. In fact, if their post brexit utopia actually happened and we turned into some manufacturing powerhouse, we'd need even more immigrants.
We have very, very low unemployment. We don't have enough skilled or unskilled local nationals to fill all the jobs if we slashed immigration.
Immigration will not go down post brexit. EU nationals will not want to come to the UK at the same levels they have done. We will therefore need to look beyond the EU and that most likely means the Indian sub-continent, Africa etc.
In very crude terms (that I don't like) were going to need a lot more "brown people".
Start hammering that message and the swivel eyed loons will change their tune.
Net immigration will not, and cannot, go down.
We've already seen talent flight from the NHS. We can't magic up British doctors, nurses etc overnight, or in any realistic time frame.
ctk
A lot of people are just wanting Brexit over with and Boris seems to be the man to get it done but if these same people realised No Deal is just the start of a clusterfuq of more negotiations etc maybe A50 might be tolerated
You bring up something that is crucial and needs to be screamed from the rooftops.
There it's a huge part of the country so tired of Brexit that they just "want it done" genuinely, genuinely thinking that once we leave that's it and things can go back to normal. That needs to be corrected and widely recognised.
That ignorance and apathy is working well for Leave but could swing a massive amount of people to ending Brexit entirely. They just need too know that leaving is the start, not end of the process!
People need to be made to understand that leaving is the EASY bit and the years of negotiation to come will make the last 3 years seem like a mere blink of the eye in comparison.
People need to be made to understand that leaving is the EASY bit and the years of negotiation to come will make the last 3 years seem like a mere blink of the eye in comparison.
They will not understand that. They believe the WTO nonsense, yet do not understand what that actually means. They believe we, as a nation of 1, will be able to get better deals than as part of the EU with no downsides. Facts and logic will not change their view.
I'd say we actually need to adopt the tactics of the leave campaign. Terrifying them that were going to be over run with immigrants if we leave etc
^^ Yeah. I'm probably giving the populous too much credit here.
What a sad, sad situation.
I’ve missed quite a bit of this thread over the past couple of days, but poor dazh seems to be getting some stick. He is not responsible for this mess, as far as I can tell he doesn’t want Brexit any more than anyone else. Remain have, barring a miracle - lost, no deal is inevitable. The time for all these arguments was before the referendum. I have heard of nobody changing their mind recently, just become more entrenched.
Somehow my YouTube recommendations have had pro Brexit videos and I have watched a few. They are hugely depressing. The arguments are weak, but the name calling is familiar, as is the passion.
I see little to provide any hope, the best remain could possibly wish for is the highly unlikely chance of a second referendum - we would lose that too!
The time for all these arguments was before the referendum.
But… way back then… the discourse was between people saying we could be like Norway, or Iceland, or Switzerland… and those saying that our existing unique terms of EU membership were preferable. A long forgotten set of arguments… the comparisons were not between membership and the UK shunning any kind of deal with the EU. Those arguing for Remain could not put forward the reasons why membership was better than No Deal… because if they tried they were derided as scaremongers… because No Deal was never going to happen (as far as those arguing for a Leave vote maintained).
But…
I agree, you’re right. But, I fear that whatever is said or done now it is essentially too late. No petition or march will change anything. Corbyn going on hunger strike will not change anything. Also, whilst what you say may well be true, the remain side were rather lacklustre/complacent before the referendum.
^^ So essentially, give up and go with it?
^^ Yeah. I’m probably giving the populous too much credit here.
What a sad, sad situation.
The Brits need a good disaster to learn, they have never had a French Revolution, the last time they were invaded and humiliated was 1066, they have never had a cultural revolution, they have never been a-bombed, they have never been liberated by the United States of America.
Brexit will hopefully give them a taste of what a good hard ****ing feels like.
It’s good for the stupid ****s, enjoy it for what it will be.
raybanwomble
The Brits need a good disaster to learn,
I do see where you are going with that and to a degree I agree.
By "some degree" I mean I agree totally apart from the fact it intensely annoys me that the people that didn't vote for this will be made to go through this harsh, humbling experience too.
That really boils my blood.
The ones that voted for it and still stand by their vote,sod them in all honestly.
In reality of course, we are all buggered.
It's horrible to be essentially tied into a death pact with someone you don't even want to even stand next to let alone jump off a talk building with.
Brexit will hopefully give them a taste of what a good hard * feels like.
It’s good for the stupid *, enjoy it for what it will be.
Indeed. I do wonder that if we leave on no deal,and the inevitable happens, who will they place the blame on.
The rose tinted view of somehow winding the clock back to a simpler/happier time (in their eyes) completely ignores the fact life has moved on. As a country we are no longer the industrial/ manufacturing country we we're, but generally prosperity and living conditions are vastly better than they were "back in the day" and people are wealthier and healthier generally.
The stark reality is we're not going to start mass producing iPhones,TVs etc here unless we're willing to pay much more for those items. Like £9k for an iPhone! Yet these people think that's what's going to happen.
I do see where you are going with that and to a degree I agree.
By “some degree” I mean I agree totally apart from the fact it intensely annoys me that the people that didn’t vote for this will be made to go through this harsh, humbling experience too.
Well, at least we haven’t had to put up with the same crap that the voices of reason in Germany and Japan had to put up with.
Silver lining etc.
The stark reality is we’re not going to start mass producing iPhones,TVs etc here unless we’re willing to pay much more for those items. Like £9k for an iPhone! Yet these people think that’s what’s going to happen
Well that could've been our economy if we'd not stuffed our faces on cheap junk from China and elsewhere.
Which we all know is based on low wages.
Not a Brexit point but 1100 lorries a day crossing the channel with car parts is not 100% a good thing is it? It's ****ing crazy we do this really.
This is more like it
Not a Brexit point but 1100 lorries a day crossing the channel with car parts is not 100% a good thing is it? It’s **** crazy we do this really.
We should stop doing that and sign free trade deals with our friends in America, Australia and other nations on the opposite side of the world. Then we can bring them across thousands of miles on eco friendly airplanes and cargo ships.
Not a Brexit point but 1100 lorries a day crossing the channel with car parts is not 100% a good thing is it? It’s **** crazy we do this really.
An awful lot of these come from the furthest reaches of the EU - Romania, Turkey, Poland, even Morocco has seen a large increase. You can all guess why this is.
There is a drive to get some of this supply chain back into the UK and currently a huge manufacturing park is being built right next door to Nissan. So far not many suppliers have signed up as they can't make the sums add up, maybe this will change post-brexit but whether it changes enough to encourage Nissan to stay depends entirely on the tariff environment they find themselves in.
raybanwomble
...The Brits need a good disaster to learn, they have never had a French Revolution, the last time they were invaded and humiliated was 1066...
This sounds like a humiliation and invasion to me:
In 1688 "...a fleet of 463 ships landed William and 14,000 men in Torbay on 5 November. As he advanced on London, desertions reduced the 30,000 strong Royal Army to 4,000..."
And the Dutch had earlier form in invading English waters and inflicting humiliations
"The Raid on the Medway, during the Second Anglo Dutch War in June 1667, was a successful attack conducted by the Dutch navy on English battleships laid up in the fleet anchorages off Chatham Dockyard and Gillingham..." and "burned or captured three capital ships and ten more ships of the line, and captured and towed away the flagship of the English fleet, HMS Royal Charles."
Pretty humiliating I'd say.
Indeed. I do wonder that
ifwhen we leave on no deal,and the inevitable happens,who willthey will place the blame on The EU, remoaners, immigrants, foreigners, descendants of immigrants, lefties, etc.
ftfy
And it will work. The average person is not bright enough to work it out and the political parties are now taking more advantage of that than ever before. Doesn't matter how bad it gets, they will always believe the BS in the Daily Mail and from their mate down the pub rather than actually give it any thought themselves.
I think it is becoming a time where democracy is over and we need to better protect society from it.
By “some degree” I mean I agree totally apart from the fact it intensely annoys me that the people that didn’t vote for this will be made to go through this harsh, humbling experience too.
Just like those of us who have to go through the harsh, humbling experience of a tory government have to suffer when the other half of the country vote for them. I'm afraid that's how democracy works. I know many on here won't like it, but what's happening now with prorogation, Boris saying he'll refuse to resign if he loses a VONC, and the outrage of Gove this morning refusing to rule out refusing to implement legislation passed in parliament, these are all results of the original failure to implement the referendum result and the continuing effort to set it aside. This is what happens when you mess about with democracy. It doesn't dissappear overnight, it falls in increments, the first of which was the failure to implement the referendum result.
Flame away...
At this point, I couldn’t give a shit what they will or won’t accept.
Calm down man. Getting angry with people who don't agree with you, no matter the supposed quality of your argument is pointless. The idea that because we live in a representative democracy the views of the people are irrelevant is plainly ridiculous. We still have elections (not enough IMO), and representatives still need people to vote for them. Brexit is a f****** stupid idea, but unfortunately for us remainers we are in the minority. If we want to change that then we have to persuade the leavers to change their minds. It's the only way.
I think it is becoming a time where democracy is over and we need to better protect society from it.
I believe thats the sort of approach the brexiteer elite are fond of.
I think it is becoming a time where democracy is over and we need to better protect society from it.
The answer to the problems with democracy is more of it, not less. And by that I mean not just elections, but protections preventing undue influence by the media, complete transparency and accountability in party funding and interests of MPs, a ban on commercial lobbying, greater education of how democracy works, and yes greater accountability of MPs to uphold their promises and enact the views of their constituents.
Do you really want to live in a Chinese style dictatorship of technocrats?
In 1688 “…a fleet of 463 ships landed William and 14,000 men in Torbay on 5 November. As he advanced on London, desertions reduced the 30,000 strong Royal Army to 4,000…”
And the Dutch had earlier form in invading English waters and inflicting humiliations
“The Raid on the Medway, during the Second Anglo Dutch War in June 1667, was a successful attack conducted by the Dutch navy on English battleships laid up in the fleet anchorages off Chatham Dockyard and Gillingham…” and “burned or captured three capital ships and ten more ships of the line, and captured and towed away the flagship of the English fleet, HMS Royal Charles.”
Pretty humiliating I’d say.
One was a failed invasion, the other a raid.
Big difference.
They were also clearly not big enough failures to lodge themselves in the national psyche.
Just like those of us who have to go through the harsh, humbling experience of a tory government have to suffer when the other half of the country vote for them. I’m afraid that’s how democracy works. I know many on here won’t like it, but what’s happening now with prorogation, Boris saying he’ll refuse to resign if he loses a VONC, and the outrage of Gove this morning refusing to rule out refusing to implement legislation passed in parliament, these are all results of the original failure to implement the referendum result and the continuing effort to set it aside. This is what happens when you mess about with democracy. It doesn’t dissappear overnight, it falls in increments, the first of which was the failure to implement the referendum result
You keep parroting this but failed to respond to my earlier rebuttals. Again, classic fascist tactics there - blame the opposition for the destruction of democracy.
Slight aside, but will severing our EU membership open the door to imported Cornish Pasties and Cumberland Sausages from places like the US of A? As most of us know, the EU are selfishly ‘protecting’ us (trade-blocking us) from American-made Cornish pasties and other traditional UK products that could be made better and cheaper in America or elsewhere outside of the EU? Under current EUseless regulations Cornish Pasties must be made in Cornwall in order to carry the label. Is it any wonder that Cornwall is virtually poverty-stricken when if not for the unelected and unaccountable EUrocrats the Cornish could easily buy in frozen pasties from, say, China and sell on at a (say) 12000% markup? It beggars belief that these EUrocratic trade blockades have hammered British shopkeepers into near-defeat. Remove the blockade. Let the beef decide.
Cornish pasties “made in America” will NOT be coming to Europe September 21st, 2015 Number of views : 1955 There is absolutely no chance that the EU’s proposed trade deal with the US, known as TTIP*, will allow American products to be marketed in the UK or anywhere else in the EU as Cornish pasties, Cumberland sausage, Stilton or any other currently protected name**. Some 60 UK products are protected under three linked EU schemes that allow producers to use the name on EU markets only if they are making the products within the traditional production regions and/or using full traditional recipes."
I think it is becoming a time where democracy is over and we need to better protect society from it.
As long as I’m the benevolent dictator I’m all for it 🙂
Bah Cornish pasties at least they’ll be able to get pork pies :-),
(It’s even worse as they don’t like our current labelling regs and don’t want to have to label gm or certain colourings.)
Have a look at US vs EU eggs it’s eye opening how different our practices are to theres.
One was a failed invasion
History isnt your strong point is it? It didnt fail.
There is an interesting question about how invited he was. Did the Seven Lords and others just make the best of a bad deal or not? Certainly William was intending to attack anyway since the country was in disarray and vulnerable plus all the religious fun and games.
My understanding is the Dutch take on it is rather different to the British take. I do keep hoping a decent modern amateur level book comes out on it
As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
The idea that because we live in a representative democracy the views of the people are irrelevant is plainly ridiculous.
But it's true, because as you said,
We still have elections (not enough IMO), and representatives still need people to vote for them.
We vote for people. Not ideas. That is how our democracy works, always has. If it didn't, we could do away with parliament completely.
And sure, those people need policies and manifestos to win votes. Which is why, in theory at least, we have an opposition. You vote for the people / party most in line with your own views, so with competing offerings everyone should have someone they can get behind. Well, as I said, in theory.
Brexit is a f****** stupid idea, but unfortunately for us remainers we are in the minority.
"We" surely aren't. Even if no-one has changed their mind since 2016, people dying off and coming of voting age in the last three years will almost certainly have swung the majority in favour of remain by now.
If we want to change that then we have to persuade the leavers to change their minds. It’s the only way.
How do you propose to do that other than capitulating to bullies?
History isnt your strong point is it? It didnt fail.
There is an interesting question about how invited he was. Did the Seven Lords and others just make the best of a bad deal or not? Certainly William was intending to attack anyway since the country was in disarray and vulnerable plus all the religious fun and games.
My understanding is the Dutch take on it is rather different to the British take. I do keep hoping a decent modern amateur level book comes out on it
Ahh yes, invited weren’t they? Again, not much of a humiliation really was it? More like invited to an internal squabble.
The fall of Singapore was the closest re ever got to a humiliation, it invigorated Asian nationalism and set the tone for the end of the empire in the east. We managed to Comfort ourselves for a long time after because of our Pyrrhic victory against Japan.
More like invited to an internal squabble.
I love the way you seamlessly switched from "failed invasion" to this. No chance of admitting you were talking crap?
As for invited as I pointed out thats actually rather unclear as to how willing it was. After all the only known invite was from the seven lords and not parliament and the invasion was already being planned at that point.
It certainly fits the definition of invasion. If you want to use invited by some people in the invaded country then 1066 was an internal squabble as well.
It was an invasion but one with some good careful PR work although that was far less successful in both Ireland and Scotland.
Oh and I can think of several other humiliations for the British state. I will start you with an easy one of the American Revolution.
As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy
I think as we (possibly) approach the end game it would seem those supporting Brexit (the government) are the ones seeking to sidestep democracy.
Oh and I can think of several other humiliations for the British state. I will start you with an easy one of the American Revolution
Again, not an era ending disgrace to the national psyche. The empire carried on as strong as ever. Singapore was.
Whether the glorious revolution was an invasion or not is an aside, it wasn’t a nation or empire ending event. Britain carried on with increased vigour, it didn’t reduce it’s standing in the world - if anything it strengthened it’s place.
It’s also been largely forgotten by the narrative that the British tell themselves.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Well you seem to think it means it's ok for MPs to ignore what the public voted for if they don't like the results so I don't think you're on very solid ground yourself.
people dying off
Oh honestly come on. When the tories (and it usually is the tories) try to gerrymander constituency boundaries after ever election victory to take advantage of demographic changes we quite rightly complain about it and oppose it. Yet now you're seriously suggesting ignoring the result of a vote because some of the voters will have died? And you wonder why leavers protest that democracy isn't being honoured?
How do you propose to do that other than capitulating to bullies?
WIth rational argument about the real issues which affect those who voted to leave, not technocratic loopholes and semantic tricks which seek to disenfranchise them.
Well you seem to think it means it’s ok for MPs to ignore what the public voted for if they don’t like the results so I don’t think you’re on very solid ground yourself.
I think that's exactly what they should do, yes.
you’re seriously suggesting ignoring the result of a vote
I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm suggesting that it was three years ago.
WIth rational argument about the real issues which affect those who voted to leave
Tried that. Project fear two world wars and one world cup doo dah.
I think that’s exactly what they should do, yes.
Well the vast majority of people don't agree with you. In fact we probably wouldn't be in this mess if MPs hadn't completely eroded faith in our policital system and democracy by doing exactly what you suggest on a regular basis.
Anyway, an interesting, and accurate take on this very subject in the grauniad today.
WIth rational argument about the real issues which affect those who voted to leave
As said that's been done. I already asked what new reasoned arguments would sway a dogmatic leave voter. Still waiting.
That article is hardly supportive of your position dazh, it is railing against direct democracy and bemoaning the downfall of representative democracy if anything.
It places the blame for the attack on democracy with the right and calls for a renewed defence of representative democracy.
Something that you like to bash repeatedly on here.
That article is hardly supportive of your position
As if you understand what my position is.
Bah Cornish pasties at least they’ll be able to get pork pies :-),
On food regional protection, as well as opening up the UK to imported American Cornish Pasties, does this mean that within the UK itself this will also be a free for all. Could we have Arbroath Smokies made in Devon or is there regional protection in UK law?
people dying off
Oh honestly come on. When the tories (and it usually is the tories) try to gerrymander constituency boundaries after ever election victory to take advantage of demographic changes we quite rightly complain about it and oppose it. Yet now you’re seriously suggesting ignoring the result of a vote because some of the voters will have died? And you wonder why leavers protest that democracy isn’t being honoured?
This is a rubbish argument as in your mind the votes of 2 million dead people is more important than the 3 million EU citizens currently living in the UK whose life is going to get really shitty?
WIth rational argument about the real issues which affect those who voted to leave
Incidentally, it amuses me greatly that the last three times we had this argument I suggested this to you as the "compromise" you're so desperately keen for and you roundly ignored it, and now you're putting it forward as your own cunning plan.
People Dying off + the new of age voters.
his is a rubbish argument as in your mind the votes of 2 million dead people is more important than the 3 million EU citizens currently living in the UK whose life is going to get really shitty?
I disagree with nearly all of what dazh says, however I dont agree with you on this.
Do you know that 2 million leave voters have died since the referendum?
How many of the electorate die between general elections? You cant remove a government mid term because you reckon most of the people that voted for it might now be dead. The same with the referendum result.
Well the vast majority of people don’t agree with you.
Hyperbole aside, this is part of the problem. Those screaming loudest about "democracy" either don't understand or don't want to accept what that word actually means. It's been hijacked to mean "do what we say" and that. is. not. how. our. democracy. works.
The people who disagree with what I said back there don't actually want democracy, not really. They just want their own way.
does this mean that within the UK itself this will also be a free for all.
Nope, it’s (the EU GI scheme)a popular scheme and in the event* of a no-deal withdrawal the Gov will copy and paste it from the EU and slap a new logo on it ‘unless and until’,ie
In the Withdrawal Agreement, the protection of EU GIs in the UK will continue unless and until the future economic partnership determines otherwise
*hur, hur, wink, wink 😉
Do you know that 2 million leave voters have died since the referendum?
I don't have figures to hand but statistically the older a voter was, the more likely they were to vote leave (and vice versa). Sure, not everyone who's died since the referendum will have been a leave voter - or even a voter at all come to that - but they will certainly be a majority over remain voters.
How many of the electorate die between general elections? You cant remove a government mid term because you reckon most of the people that voted for it might now be dead. The same with the referendum result.
True, but, we have general elections on a regular basis. Why might that be, hmm?
Here you go.
Cougar, I get your point, and there are many good reasons not to leave, but I dont think arguing that we shouldn't because leavers are dying off is a great one.
If people become more right wing as they get older, then perhaps there are now leave voters from those that voted remain on the basis that they are now 3 years older.
I’m not suggesting anything of the sort. I’m suggesting that it was three years ago.
I'm suggesting that you're trying to have it both ways. You may think it justifiable to ignore the result, but at least be honest about it rather than engaging in ever more acrobatic logical gymnastics.
As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It tells me that he gets his opinions and "facts" from the Daily Mail, which I believe claims to have invented the word.
I find it quite useful, as it means I can immediately discredit and ignore anyone who choses to use it.
Nope, it’s (the EU GI scheme)a popular scheme and in the event* of a no-deal withdrawal the Gov will copy and paste it from the EU and slap a new logo on it ‘unless and until’
But the U.K. can stop it at their whim thou whereas if it was EU they’ed have to work harder.
Copy and pasting laws over means fk all tbh.
the Daily Mail, which I believe claims to have invented the word.
Ah, I was referring to "democracy," not "remoaner."
If the majority of the population don’t want a No Deal Brexit… and a majority of the MPs they elected don’t want a No Deal Brexit… but the government pushes ahead with it anyway… then all the arguments about public will vs the judgement of MPs is irrelevant… both are being ignored in that scenario… actually, more than ignored… subverted.
Cougar, I get your point, and there are many good reasons not to leave, but I dont think arguing that we shouldn’t because leavers are dying off is a great one.
You could actually go to the people and ask them what they want thou in lieu of the MPs being unable to reach consensus.
And after the easiest deal ever that may have been mentioned mutating into no-deal(that was never mentioned before the result thou) would that be a bad thing ?
Cougar, I get your point, and there are many good reasons not to leave, but I dont think arguing that we shouldn’t because leavers are dying off is a great one.
I'm not holding that up as a reason to leave, rather that we're working from out of date information. The claim is that leave is the majority position, I'm positing that this is untrue. Which kinda puts "the will of the people" on shaky ground, doesn't it.
Look at it this way. All the vocal leavers are dead against having another referendum. Why do we suppose that might be? They should be all over it like a tramp on chips, an opportunity to silence the pesky remoaner minority for good.
Not only is leave a minority opinion now, deep down they all know it is.
If people become more right wing as they get older, then perhaps there are now leave voters from those that voted remain on the basis that they are now 3 years older.
Perhaps, or perhaps the older you are the more likely you are to have always been right wing. I honestly don't know. I doubt however that many people have changed their political leanings 180' in the last three years.
You may think it justifiable to ignore the result, but at least be honest about it rather than engaging in ever more acrobatic logical gymnastics.
I don't know how often I have to explain that I'm not saying we should ignore the result. We've spent three years trying to honour it, that's one pretty un-ignored result right there. What I'm saying is that as time goes on it becomes less and less relevant.
In any case, there are plenty of ways of honouring the result without driving us off a cliff edge. But this is a page 2 argument.
Just a reminder of what the government has been up to in the last three years. I'm not sure remoaners thwarting democracy because things haven't gone their way is entirely the issue.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1168108396605857792.html
We’ve spent three years trying to honour it, that’s one pretty un-ignored result right there.
Not forgetting that in 3 years the greatest question in this thread has never been answered.
What will you be able to do once we’ve left that you couldn’t do now?
Even outside this thread I’ve not seen an answer part from er blue passports or tread grapes.
I’m not holding that up as a reason to leave, rather that we’re working from out of date information. The claim is that leave is the majority position, I’m positing that this is untrue. Which kinda puts “the will of the people” on shaky ground, doesn’t it.
Look at it this way. All the vocal leavers are dead against having another referendum. Why do we suppose that might be? They should be all over it like a tramp on chips, an opportunity to silence the pesky remoaner minority for good.
I agree with this. Although I am sure we agree that this is largely down to having more accurate information, facts and knowledge consequences of brexit than we had 3 years ago.
I am just suggesting that this is a better argument to take back to the people rather than having another referendum because people have died off.
I’d like that to be true… but, with many notable exceptions no doubt (I know some septuagenarians who voted Leave and now want another referendum in which they say they’d vote to stop Brexit in any of the forms currently being proposed), surveys suggest that the rise in support for EU membership is more to do with all the new young voters being counted, rather than older supporters changing their minds. Sadly. Whether all those that have come of voting age in the last three plus years should have a say now… well, I’d argue they should… someone else can try and make the case for why they shouldn’t. Arguing that their wishes are less important than those of people who are now dead is even more tricky… but I’m sure someone will try…
Just a reminder of what the government has been up to in the last three years.
https://twitter.com/wmarybeard/status/1168037270194012160?s=21
What I’m saying is that as time goes on it becomes less and less relevant.
Ah, so we should leave quickly. Boris is doing exactly what you want.
Despite a change of PM, this government has been held in contempt of Parliament.
That seems to have been brushed aside.
That alone is astonishing to me.
Now M. gove won't rule out ignoring the law and boris is saying he might refuse to step down if he fails a VONC?
Forget brexit, if this is allowed to fly we're living in a text book dictatorship.
Forget brexit, if this is allowed to fly we’re living in a text book dictatorship.
Done under the cover of upholding democracy in response to remainers attempting to overturn the original referendum. You can't have it both ways. Either we stick to democratic principles and conventions, however weak they are in our 'constitution', or we don't. The public understand this simple point which is why there isn't wider outrage at what Boris is doing, and why he will probably get away with it.