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Johnson must be scared of the opposition then.
House speaker doesn't sound too amused.
To paraphrase Bomber Harris
is that you, Mark?
That the time to stop it was before parliament broke up and that is was just down to the leader of the opposition to call the vote. When, anyone sensible, knew that the chances of success were minimal.
Oh, I see @dissonance. I didn’t say that I had some magic crystal ball to see whether the vote called for by a resigning Tory minister would get enough Tories voting for it… I’ve never claimed that… just that it was the last best chance to hold a vote that could result in a general election before our current exit date… giving the public a say in what happens this autumn… and that the leader of the opposition should have grabbed that opportunity then, rather than leave all the balls in the new PM’s court.
Johnson must be scared of the opposition then.
Doubt it.
He's scared of his own MP's who might not toe his new party line because they have a shred of conscience left.
These days that is kind of the opposition.
Actually... has anyone been up to the allotment to let Jeremy know whats happened?
Years ago I was crossing the road near mansion house with boris who was carrying some files and reading a paper at the same time. he walked straight out in front of a car. I shouted and grabbed him which made him drop his files and the car missed him by a foot or so. I helped him pick them up, he thanked me 'for saving his life, blimey!' and off he went.
.........I apologize profusely.
Bercow is seriously pissed off. His statement is spot on.
...."At this time, one of the most challenging periods in our nation's history, it is vital that our elected Parliament has its say. After all, we live in a parliamentary democracy.
Shutting down Parliament would be an offence against the democratic process."
For what it is worth... https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157
calm down guys
Corbyn is all over this
Well... its an extra few weeks to get the pruning and the rest of the winter preperations done.
Every cloud, and all that....
So the remainers are deliberately aiming for a no deal brexit?
Well Corbyn and McDonnell certainly are, they've been campaigning to leave for 40 years and their whole strategy from the start has been to ensure Brexit happens while letting the Torys take the blame.
Other parties? The SNP clearly have no problem with leaving the EU, they have been effectively campaigning to leave for decades since leaving the UK=Leaving the EU. The Greens are incredibly Euro skeptic. The Lib Dems were calling for a vote on EU membership back in 2007 and it was in their manifesto in 2010. Some of the others? I'm not sure, a lot of them have voted *for* Brexit in the HoC back in the early days. Boris himself was on a knife edge and could easily have joined the remainer side. Would you describe Boris as a committed Remainer?
So yeah, I don't think all of Remainers in leadership roles are very committed to remaining although I'm sure many back benchers are.
EDIT: This is a major digression based on an afterthought in parenthesis irrelevant to the point I was making!
I shouted and grabbed him which made him drop his files and the car missed him by a foot or so.
By the standards of this thread, this makes you culpable for the whole Brexit mess.
I wonder what the value of the pound will be looking like by the end of the day?
There we go… any effort to stop this government now likely to result in a post Brexit election…
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1166647168368660481?s=21
Si when do the riots start? I've got something on tonight but I could be free after 7
I'm up for it! TO THE BARRACADES!*
* Once it's stopped raining, obviously...
Other parties? The SNP clearly have no problem with leaving the EU, they have been effectively campaigning to leave for decades since leaving the UK=Leaving the EU
Wrong - as is your assertion about the greens.
Edit - saw your point that its a digression - I agree. Lets keep it for another day
The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has issued a statement responding to the government’s announcement.
I am appalled at the recklessness of Johnson’s government, which talks about sovereignty and yet is seeking to suspend parliament to avoid scrutiny of its plans for a reckless no-deal Brexit. This is an outrage and a threat to our democracy.
That is why Labour has been working across parliament to hold this reckless government to account, and prevent a disastrous no deal, which parliament has already ruled out.
If Johnson has confidence in his plans he should put them to the people in a general election or public vote.
I'm sure this will all be in the history books of future generations with them wondering how the **** we allowed this shit show to happen.
I'd actually be up for marching but not sure what I'd be marching for now, unless 'the people' forcibly removed BoJo + cronies (which isn't going to happen) then it would just be a lot of shouting that's just ignored by the government...
Or is it just people like me with their apathy that allowed it to happen?
He’s scared of his own MP’s who might not toe his new party line because they have a shred of conscience left.
Tories? Conscience? Eh?
Great letter from Jeremy there TJ. Where did you find that? The press copies of tomorrows Morning Star? Or the Canary Twitter feed?
Or is it just people like me with their apathy that allowed it to happen?
If Johnson and Cummings are preprepared to tear up what passes for our constitution and effectively suspend democracy, then I don't think a protest march is going to do the trick.
I wonder what odds the bookies are giving on Boris declaring martial law by the end of the week?
Its a press release - widely distributed.I have it from the guardian but every major media outlet will have it.
The SNP clearly have no problem with leaving the EU, they have been effectively campaigning to leave for decades since leaving the UK=Leaving the EU.
Is that actually true? The latter bit I mean, would Scottish independence automatically have dragged them out of the EU or would they remain a member in their own right? Or is it Complicated?
(Apologies for the tangent but it's the first time I've seen anyone claim that, or even mention it.)
Its a press release – widely distributed.I have it from the guardian but every major media outlet will have it.
Do you think he might come out of retirement and appear on any actual media platforms? You know... the telly? Wireless? Newspapers? That type of thing? Its been a while...
Maybe after he's had his new shed delivered and transferred all the trowels and spades and spare plant pots from the old one. Next Monday, maybe?
I’m sure this will all be in the history books of future generations with them wondering how the **** we allowed this shit show to happen.
We did it by electing Labour and Tory MPs who then voted to enact Article 50, and then subsequently voting them in again while they both stood on a platform of leaving the EU.
Cougar - it's complicated. (and covered in other threads) 😉
We did it by electing Labour and Tory MPs who then voted to enact Article 50, and then subsequently voting them in again while they both stood on a platform of leaving the EU.
Labour opposed no deal brexit
and I cant find a mention of crashing out in the Tory manifesto
https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto
they talk at length about how theyre going to get us a great deal tho
We did it by electing Labour and Tory MPs who then voted to enact Article 50, and then subsequently voting them in again while they both stood on a platform of leaving the EU.
A perhaps crucial part of the chain of events that led us here. Also whatever diddies voted for the deadline
Is this the last final desperate ploy of the brexiteers?
Do you think he might come out of retirement and appear on any actual media platforms? You know… the telly? Wireless? Newspapers? That type of thing? Its been a while…
Maybe after he’s had his new shed delivered and transferred all the trowels and spades and spare plant pots from the old one. Next Monday, maybe?
Keep it to the Corbyn thread where it is equally hilarious. Don't want to spread it too thin.
80% of voters... yada yada. you know it by now.
Cougar, salmon et. al. maintained that an independent scotland would remain a member of the EU after separating from the the UK. quite a lot of people disagreed. basque region of spain was referenced ( setting a precedent ). but that's another discussion.
Labour opposed no deal brexit
They voted to enact Article 50 which would leave us with a No Deal Brexit if no deal was forthcoming. They have subsequently doubled-down on the "respecting the will of the people" argument.
80% of voters… yada yada. you know it by now.
Exactly 😉
I thought they had to leave the UK and only then could they apply to join the EU, but the EU were all cool as Christmas about them applying and said they were a shoe-in.
I'm probably wrong though.
3m ago
13:29
Corbyn: Labour will prevent a 'smash and grab' operation
Jeremy Corbyn has said that Labour will do everything it can to prevent what he described as a “smash and grab” operation on the part of the government.
“I have protested in the strongest possible terms on behalf of my party and all the other opposition parties that are going to join in with this in saying that suspending parliament is not acceptable, It’s not on,” the Labour leader said in a clip pooled to broadcasters.
“What the prime minister is doing is a sort of smash and grab on our democracy in order to force through a no deal exit from the European Union. What his he so afraid that that he has to suspend parliament in order to prevent parliament discussing these matters?
fine words, did sturgeon get hers out first?
no matter. now we will really see where we are i guess. on the bright side, at least we should get a result of some sort, so this is either coming to a head and will get put to bed, or we're going down the rabbit hole deeper, and we'll be doing so for the next 10 years.
place your bets...
10 years of shit either way. Worse shit if Johnson, Raab and co get their way… but years of shit ahead in any event.
Time for some democracy rallies.
Anyone else curiously excited by all this? My head obviously tells me this is pretty bad, and I still have faith a no deal will be prevented somehow, but there's a nagging thought in my head about what will happen. I sort of think **** it, we're on borrowed time anyway with climate change and unsustainable economics, so we might as well embrace the chaos and see what happens.
Time for some democracy rallies.
Yeah because walking through London with amusing banners has changed things in the past hasn't it?
Anyone else curiously excited by all this? My head obviously tells me this is pretty bad, and I still have faith a no deal will be prevented somehow, but there’s a nagging thought in my head about what will happen. I sort of think **** it, we’re on borrowed time anyway with climate change and unsustainable economics, so we might as well embrace the chaos and see what happens.
if I didnt have kids whom Im worried for, maybe
but I see them growing up in a low tax, low welfare privatised shithole eating crap quality chicken and going broke to pay for healthcare
I definitely saw Dumbojo , lord far far and Jacob cream cracker drawing pictures of the prophet Mohammed and defecating on them.
Its value is going to be fairly limited but might as well sign this gov petition.
dont shut parliament down
@Dazh not really 🙂 I am a little concerned that the belief that "That could never happen here" will mean there is a bit too much apathy until its too late though.
(years in IT have taught me to hate the phrase 'but it was fine yesterday' which is often trotted out just after something is no longer fine, which may have something to do with it)
Anyone else curiously excited by all this?
unsurprisingly... no
I want to go back to the days where politics was really, really dull and uneventful except for when some Tory minister or other periodically died in an auto-asphyxiation accident in a room full of rent boys, wearing womens underwear, with a cucmber up their arse
Fat chance of that for the next decade. I doubt the papers would even bother reporting that any more, because the front pages would be telling us how Boris has imposed a curfew in the cities and is ordering anyone breaking it to be shot on sight
I want to go back to the days where politics was really, really dull and uneventful
Never going to happen even without brexit. Brexit is small fry compared to climate change, environmental destruction, and the continued operation of an economic (stupid name BTW, there's nothing economic about it!) system which assumes never ending growth and unlimited resources. If you want a quiet boring future, go live on another planet.
lets hope that she's signed the Royals Death Warrant.
but I see them growing up in a low tax, low welfare privatised shithole eating crap quality chicken and going broke to pay for healthcare
You forgot about them swigging vodka form a 35cl bottle whilst driving.
lets hope that she’s signed the Royals Death Warrant.
She didnt really have a choice. Actually getting involved in politics would be more likely to end the monarchy even if it was for good cause.
Cheers both.
Anyone else curiously excited by all this?
Anarchists, sociopaths, racists and disaster capitalists probably. Oh, and morons, though we're supposed to pretend they don't exist.
ION, apparently the Queen has predictably just approved the proroguing order.
Anyone else curiously excited by all this? My head obviously tells me this is pretty bad, and I still have faith a no deal will be prevented somehow, but there’s a nagging thought in my head about what will happen. I sort of think **** it, we’re on borrowed time anyway with climate change and unsustainable economics, so we might as well embrace the chaos and see what happens.
Humans have been saying economic development is unsustainable since Malthus.
Economic development is what will push us to the technological level whereby we can live on this planet with less impact.
Furthermore, even in a system that takes into account environmental degradation and impact to the planet - capitalist economics would still dictate what you could and could not afford to do to the planet. Everything has a price, even in a system with no cars etc.
People never come together for the greater good Daz, movements that pretend to do so always serve the interests of political all revolutionary elites. Which you always rail against.
There’s not going to be a democratic people’s climate rebellion like Greta Thunberg seems to think. The only chance that humanity has to stop climate change is less democracy and greater centralised planning.
Something you would also hate.
Anyway you sound like a misguided disaster socialist, an accusation you have previously scoffed at.
Anarchists, sociopaths, racists and disaster capitalists probably.
Oh give over. There are very few innocents in todays world, and our ridiculously unsustainable lifestyles dictate everything else that happens. Brexit isn't the answer of course, but neither is the status quo. Keeping everything the same only leads in one direction.
Anyone else curiously excited by all this?
I know what you mean, but a moment's thought dispels that thought. At best, we'll slide economically for a decade or two. At worst, we'll be re-formed along the lines of the USA. And the more I learn about that place the more I realise how rotten its fundamental principles are.
Yip... from next month we’re Trump Island. Bye bye NHS, hello chlorine washed chicken and republican terrorism
Something to look forward too, eh?
I am curious to see where this is all going and to actually have a finality about the whole Brexit procedure one way or another may be no bad thing. The country cannot stay in this limbo of wanting to leave but not deciding how to do it.
Whilst it is very easy to point at the failings of the Tory government of which there have been many I personally think it would not have mattered if it was Tory or Labour trying to implement Brexit, the opposition would have frustrated the party in power all the while demanding a general election. It seems like all sides have forgotten who and what they are representing and now it is all about the power struggle.
We have the EU not wanting to change anything in the current Brexit agreement, a new government wanting to change things and an opposition who even before the new government was formed saying that they would bring a vote of no confidence in as soon as it was in an attempt to force an election. The opposition have taken the easiest route to get here by blocking almost everything all the while saying 'we would have done better'.
Europes role in all this has been to make it as painful or frustrating as possible to leave not only hoping that we would be unable to but also to discourage any other country of doing the same however at some point Europe is going to call enough, it only takes one country so say no to an extension anyway and we would be out. There is no incentive for them to change the current Brexit arrangements.
Regardless, whichever political power was in charge of implementing Brexit was on a hiding to nothing, I wish we could have remained and not force years of pain and uncertainty upon the country. I am now one of those just wanting the government to choose between either the rock they created or the hard place and finally move the country down the path to deal with the ramifications of a crappy decision.
WHEN DO THOSE CLEVER PEOPLE BEHIND THE SCENES SHOW UP?
Brexit isn’t the answer of course, but neither is the status quo.
And of course, those are the only two options available to us.
What tyres for burning in the street?
What tyres for burning in the street?
I suspect Hutchinson or Michelin would be best.
Europes role in all this has been to make it as painful or frustrating as possible to leave
they really havent, all theyve done is offer us the same 3rd country deals that they offer everyone else
infact theyve made more concessions than with any other country, especially the backstop that we demanded
the EU have been tough but blaming them for not deliveing on the impossible promises of teh brexiteers is ridiculous
and yes its been opposed but a narrow victory riddled with corruption was always doomed, when cummings admitted they lied to win its given remainers ammo now johnson forcing no deal through like this means that this division will be prolonged well after we crash out
its not even a popular move now https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1166723485248425986
29 or 27.5?
We have the EU not wanting to change anything in the current Brexit agreement
That's kinda disingenuous.
The UK drew up the agreement, the EU went "OK then," then the UK went "actually, we don't want that after all." Now the rest of the EU is patiently waiting for us to tell them what we do want, which is increasingly looking like it's going to be "economic ruin, please." Tick tock.
Europes role in all this has been to make it as painful or frustrating as possible to leave
Europe's role in all this has been to clearly state on day one what they will and won't accept. The UK knew all this going in and chose to ignore it because, y'know, they need us more than we need them, easiest deal in history, all that arrogant jingoistic claptrap.
As I said before, leaving is easy, no-one is frustrating anything. Rather, you cannot unpick 40 years of integration overnight. Complicated things are complicated, who'd a thunk it.
not only hoping that we would be unable to but also to discourage any other country of doing the same
There's a truism here in that of course they don't want member states to leave - I'd be hard pressed to think of any club that deliberately encouraged the shedding if its members, that's kinda the point of a club's existence. They'd be stupid not to be at least slightly concerned that it might give other member states ideas about upping sticks.
But brexit has had the opposite effect, far from emboldening the neon nazis, every other country has seen what a shitshow we've made of it and want nothing to do with it. And that's on us, not the EU27, brexit has killed the notion of frexit stone dead because it's amply demonstrated what a ****ing stupid idea it is.
I am curious to see where this is all going and to actually have a finality about the whole Brexit procedure one way or another may be no bad thing. The country cannot stay in this limbo of wanting to leave but not deciding how to do it.
This is just the beginning - this is going to shape the country for the next few decades.
Boils my piss.
All along this has been about respecting democratic principles. And BJ and his chums seem happy to side step all that with a lie about a Queen’s Speech to prevent our elected representatives doing what they know to be what the majority want.
What tyres for burning in the street?
Fire XCs
All along this has been about respecting democratic principles.
All along this has never been about respecting democratic principles. It's been about overriding democratic process at every turn and then crying "undemocratic!" without a trace of irony at anyone who dares challenge them.
Remember: one of the very first things that happened after the referendum was a months-long series of court cases where the government attempted to wrestle control from parliament. When the courts ruled that parliament was, in fact, sovereign (something the leavers seem quite keen on when it suits them) the Daily Mail ran their "enemies of the people" headline with the photos of the judges. And it's been going downhill ever since.
This is no democracy I recognise and hasn't been for quite some time.
I see that since the Good Friday Agreement there has been a number of super looking trail centre developments in Ireland.
If you're in the military will these make it a bit more pleasant when you're sent back over there, come October, or do you think you'll be just too busy to enjoy the new routes?
Also, when do folks think that the IRA/INLA/RealIRA/whoever will start blowing things and people up on the mainland?
I reckon it will be on Brexit day (MK II).
I remember this as i used to meet my friend in the North Star.
Areshloes.
Johnson must be scared of the opposition then.
Doubt it.He’s scared of his own MP’s who might not toe his new party line because they have a shred of conscience left.
It's not the Oposition, his MPs, Nigel and his possie or the press that he's affraid of, it's the idea of alienating those "grassroots" Tories and any aligned swivel-eyed voters that he needs to keep on side.
Right now he's hedging a bet that those who support a no-deal brexit and consider his sneaky tactic to "deliver" it a vote winning maneuverer are sufficient in number for him to get re-elected in a few weeks time...
Remember this actually has very little to do with the EU or Brexit, it's about gaining and holding onto power for long enough to flog the NHS, Fire & Rescue, coastguard, Police, Armed forces, local authorities or anything else that's not nailed down to Blackwater and Haliburton...
Anyone else curiously excited by all this? My head obviously tells me this is pretty bad, and I still have faith a no deal will be prevented somehow, but there’s a nagging thought in my head about what will happen. I sort of think **** it, we’re on borrowed time anyway with climate change and unsustainable economics, so we might as well embrace the chaos and see what happens.
I know what you mean, it's sort of fascinating like watching a slow-mo car crash or something, except of course in this analogy you and your loved ones are sat in the car...
Also, when do folks think that the IRA/INLA/RealIRA/whoever will start blowing things and people up on the mainland?
Suspect they'll be too busy with the cross border smuggling operation to be doing any of that.
Also, when do folks think that the IRA/INLA/RealIRA/whoever will start blowing things and people up on the mainland?
Have you not been watching the news? They've started practicing already. Brushing up on some rusty techniques. A republican put it pretty succinctly on channel 4 news last week. Basically:
"If there's a border then it needs infrastructure. As soon as they put so much as a camera on the border, it'll get shot at. So then they have to put someone there to stop the camera being shot. They won't see the morning!"
Good, eh? Can't wait til they start bombing English city centre pubs again
What tyres for burning in the street?
Fire XCs
Followed by Smokes
And then Cinders
A friend of mine predicted it will end in civil unrest. I think we start to see riots and bricks through conservative party windows. I am not sure it helps but it sure as hell will not take much to set people off.
where will it end? Croydon High Street 2020
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4656461/ruth-davidson-quit-scottish-tory-leader-boris-johnson/
thats potentially 30 tory seats up for grabs, that she was a big part in them winning
And to think there's a by-election in Shetland coming up with this as the Tory campaign leaflet
Anyone else curiously excited by all this?
No SANE person is - that I am fing sure of.
thebees and dazh*
I was going to post some venom and vitriol in the hope of getting banned, but I just can’t express it sufficiently. Despite having a reasonable vocabulary, I can’t summon the words to do it justice.
Brexiteers are going to be held accountable, in a very real way, very quickly when food and medicine shortages bite after 31st October.
*Drop the act.
Bj knows he hasn't got parliament support. It is his all or nothing moment. All his extra cash promises are to get public on his side.
Scary and interesting time all in one.