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^ we are a member as it ensures we get benefits for the costs of our membership, if we are no longer members then it falls to reason that we will no longer benefit, we will be in a less financially advantageous position.
So anyone still advocating leaving, especially with a no deal is therefore a ****ing idiot.
Brexit in a sentence
That’s not the case though, we can leave whenever we want, but our benefits and influence dissolve with our membership.
That’s what brexiters don’t understand.
It's not even that. We're not just a "member" of the EU, we're a part of it and it is a part of us, like eggs in a cake. We've spent four decades offloading crap we didn't want to deal with and superseding things like trade deals with better ones negotiated with the additional clout of 27 other countries on our side. What brexiters don't seem to want to understand is that unpicking all that is complicated.
Leaving is easy. No-one is stopping us if that's what we want to do, despite what the Daily Express would have us believe. Leaving in an orderly fashion without destroying the country in the process, that's a tricksier proposition. It's like having an operation with a team of surgeons, nurses, anaesthesiologists etc in place versus standing in your GP's office with a rusty Stanley knife shouting "I don't understand why you can't just cut it out!"
They won’t be by a week into November, obviously. Then they’ll all be howling about this not being what they voted for and how has the government allowed this to happen.
Sadly, I don't think that will happen. If political events in recent years have taught us anything, it's that carefully structured rhetoric and misinformation give politicians power.
If Boris Johnson does what he is insisting upon, there will always be a hardcore few to who he will be a hero. And when they're stood at the job centre after their company has folded, they will be Blaming Theresa May, or the EU, or parliament, or anything else someone can muster up a vague excuse from.
The collective mentality and the bias of the human mind is a huge problem here, which either does not appear to be understood, or those who do understand it have not been given a voice.
And when it all goes bad, those who created the problem will not be seeking to backtrack, they will make even more outlandish claims, and come up with more outlandish and divisive solutions. It's really quite worrying.
standing in your GP’s office with a rusty Stanley knife shouting “I don’t understand why you can’t just cut it out!”
this is probably best case scenario for NHS in 5 years time at present rate.
this is probably best case scenario for NHS in 5 years time at present rate.
A more likely scenario is that they'll refuse to cut it out with that stanley knife until you provide evidence of your healthcare insurance or give them your credit card.
If political events in recent years have taught us anything, it’s that carefully structured rhetoric and misinformation give politicians power.
Forget recent years, this has always been the case.
If we are a member of something which doesn’t allow it’s members to leave then is that something we want to be part of?
We were allowed to hold a referendum on whether to Leave or to Remain in a union with other countries. That sounds pretty democratic. Surely no one could object to that?
Hell, now that all the facts are known, we're even allowed to have another!
Leaving isn’t the issue as long as you’re prepared to accept the consequences, which will be severe and many.
Same difference. The leavers will say that being part of an organisation which doesn't allow you to leave without committing economic suicide is as much a reason to leave as any, and it will fuel the 'evil-empire' narrative with the plucky UK rebels standing up for their independence.
They would even have a point if this was just an academic argument about democracy and self-determinism. Trouble is it's not and it will affect the lives of millions.
The leavers will say that being part of an organisation which doesn’t allow you to leave without committing economic suicide is as much a reason to leave as any
Apart from it isnt doing so. So need a slightly more intelligent argument.
The leavers will say that being part of an organisation which doesn’t allow you to leave without committing economic suicide is as much a reason to leave as any
In which case it's only reasonable to point out that they're a complete ****ing moron.
Its why they don't give monkeys guns.
I'm a member of a club of people who have two feet. I arrived at it through millions of years of evolution. I suppose that I could leave the club by simply pointing a shotgun at one of those feet and pulling the trigger.
I have been reliably informed that there will be many benefits to doing this. I will feel liberated from a world devised to purely suit the interests of those bastards with two feet, I shall have cheaper footwear costs and I've been promised a truly marvelous blue sock
I’m a member of a club of people who have two feet.
Daft analogies/metaphors like that only fuel the problem. Whether we like it or not, self-determination is quite an important issue for a lot of people, especially if they feel they're not being served by the current system. Until fundamental reform of the EU is on the table this will never go away. If we leave without a deal, it will be very bad. If we don't leave at all, it will be very bad (however much remainers like to deny it). The middle ground just kicks the can down the road.
I’m a member of a club of people who have two feet.
at least you are above average at something 😉
Yup the economic suicide of no deal Brexit and the complaining of some halfwits if we remain are definitely the same level of bad.
Until fundamental reform of the EU is on the table this will never go away
That's some big words, so what sort of fundamental reform are you thinking of here?
I try not to be funny or condescending here, but, we already have elections for MEPs and an EU political assembly and all that stuff. In a large way (but maybe I'm being really stupid) that kind of seems like a democratic and self-determining type of setup and process.
What do you think can be proposed to make the 'average Brexit voter' EVER consider accepting the EU in a different form?
The leavers will say that being part of an organisation which doesn’t allow you to leave without committing economic suicide is as much a reason to leave as any,
The thing is,
So what?
We've got to a point where "the will of the people" is deemed sacrosanct. We've had three years of hearing what they want, or what they think they want, but the UK is a representative democracy not a direct one. What they want is a complete irrelevance and it's long past time that that screaming "but we want it" should be met with "and?" I don't doubt that if questioned there's plenty of things they want, I bet a referendum to abolish taxation would be enormously popular. That doesn't mean it's a good idea and it certainly doesn't mean that we should do it whatever the cost.
What do you think can be proposed to make the ‘average Brexit voter’ EVER consider accepting the EU in a different form?
Seems to me that most of the objection is built on sand. They don't like the idea of the EU (and with my reference to my previous post: who cares?) but when pushed to explain themselves it's all "unelected bureaucrats telling us what to do" which is devoid of any basis in fact. As difficult as it is to educate gammon pork, dispelling some of these lies could be a good start.
Our UK representatives are fully a tenth of the entire EU parliament, in a very real sense we tell the EU what to do rather than the other way around. Why would you want to abandon that?
I was talking to a lib dem activist today who is a big Swinson fan and lives in her constituency. He agreed she made a major blunder over her rejection of Corbyns overtures. Too keen to make a mark and totally misjudgment from an inexperienced leader was his take
Oh - and note todays cross party meeting Corbyn has put country before party and before his own ambitions - he is not insisting on any particular course of action - what a surprise - he is not the monster the press pretend he is
Why Cougar?
2ww and 1wc is the obvious answer.
Whether we like it or not, self-determination is quite an important issue for a lot of people, especially if they feel they’re not being served by the current system.
The question is are they right about not being served? If no then its a case of explaining that to them possibly by pointing out many of the scare stories were by a lying journalist who was too lazy to write accurate reports.
If yes then it needs addressing. However the evidence for this is limited when you see how often in the past the UK side won in pushing policy. Thats even with a bunch of MEPs who cant be arsed to engage.
Oh – and note todays cross party meeting Corbyn has put country before party and before his own ambitions – he is not insisting on any particular course of action – what a surprise – he is not the monster the press pretend he is
Swinsons comments were a bit knee jerk, and it seems like she has understood this. However they are completely understandable.
Hardly supprising given Jeremies line before these meetings kicked off, that they want to block a tory brexit, suggesting he thought he could push a 'better' Labour brexit through, despite the signed and sealed WA.
His words also alluded that he would lead any interim government, which he simply wouldn't get the numbers for... That's what Jo was pointing out with her 'nonsense' comment.
Whether we like it or not, self-determination is quite an important issue for a lot of people
They're going to be in for a bit of a shock when they see what preconditions are applied to even enter any talks about future trade deals then, particularly with cuddly uncle Donald.
he is not the monster the press pretend he is
I don't think many on here buy the Daily Mail line that he's some communist who eats babies and wants to nationalise and unionise air and abolish the armed forces
The objection to him is that he's just a bit shit, he's been all but invisible for the last 3 years, and has totally failed to provide any serious opposition to what is a hard right project that will hit workers hardest while the rich line their pockets. And given his lifelong Euroscepticism and hostility to the EU its not difficult to see why. He's a Brexiteer. That's why he's not trusted on this issue
And let's not get too carried away... his preferred option is obviously still some red-unicorn Brexit fantasy, that in his own head he still sees himself negotiating at some point.
He's only voiced any opposition to Brexit at the 59th minute of the eleventh hour once we're on the brink of no deal and it's become glaringly obvious exactly how damaging that will be. He still wants us out of the EU. Just on his terms.
If we leave without a deal, it will be very bad. If we don’t leave at all, it will be very bad (however much remainers like to deny it). The middle ground just kicks the can down the road.
The middle ground of what? Some sort of deal? Been there, tried that, three times.
No daz, again, the remain block is the only one that is unified in what it wants. The leave group is split in to multiple factions of 'leave but not too much', to 'blow both legs off our economy'. What actually serves the largest number of people the outcome they want, is not to leave. Sorry. Handily it's also the option that doesn't throw the economy in to the toilet too. What's also interesting is that a large swathe of leavers will also turn round and say 'oh well, never thought we'd get it anyway, never mind.'
They would even have a point if this was just an academic argument about democracy and self-determinism.
It would be a ****ing stupid one, though. Still.
We WANTED the benefits of close cooperation and grudgingly accepted some of the limitations. Brexiteers still want the benefits, but none of the compromises. Brexiteers are, mostly, dupes.
Actually mildly heartened by Corbyn's comments today.
The Cummings response. I’m sure we’ll be seeing a lot more of this
https://twitter.com/conservatives/status/1166362662231580673?s=21
Wooing back the Faragists for the upcoming election
Brexiteers still want the benefits, but none of the compromises.
That was certainly the case to start with, but since the lunatics took over the asylum I'm not sure that even this is true any more. The moderates have all but disappeared now and the remaining shouty gammons simply don't care. Out at any costs, leave means leave, **** business, **** the NHS, **** education, **** collaboration, **** supplies of luxuries like food and medicine, it's all a price worth paying.
How in the name of your deity of choice did we come to this?
The Cummings response. I’m sure we’ll be seeing a lot more of this
Ah yes, that answers my question rather succinctly.
How in the name of your deity of choice did we come to this?
The drip, drip, drip messaging from the likes of the Daily Fail and the pure toxic cynicism of the likes of Farage, Cummings et al.
“THEY, will tell you that you are stupid, but you are the chosen ones”.
Actually, they are just effing stupid.
Lots of promising grown up type talk after today’s cross party meetings. About time. Let’s embrace it for as long as it lasts.
On EU reform - I'd get rid of the council of ministers completely and stop the moving the parliament around nonsense.
MNattyfez - she may well be right in what she said but the tone and shouting it so loudly was just very poor politics as can be seen by the way she was so quickly slapped down by the greens and SNP. doping that was a crass misjudgment and makes compromise harder by making "winners" and "losers"
Blocking no deal by legislation obviously good, but will there be enough time, I doubt eu would extend just for that?
dazh
Until fundamental reform of the EU is on the table this will never go away.
If the last 3 years have shown us anything it's that the EU can perform remarkably well to an impending crisis. Actually, it bindings pretty well, full stop,considering how many counties and factions it has to please.
As far as I'm concerned, it's the UK government that is patently not fit for purpose and badly needs fundamental reform.
Indeed. A political event beyond voting against No Deal will be required to get an extension. It’s all about the timing of an election now, not whether we have one.
More worryingly…
Government ministers are going with the catch phrase “I will do anything to stop this group of undemocratic MPs”… language that used to be aimed at the EU… now it’s used against our own MPs (who are the only democratic element of our UK wide administration)… by ministers. And their rhetoric is aired without challenge or comment by our national broadcaster. Flipping scary.
Jeremy Corbyn was never serious about the meeting today, just look how shit his biscuits were.
Corbyn spoke well today about the meetings. As did the other MPs involved.
Yeah but nobody even mentioned the biscuits
Now I need biscuits.
Too slow Binners. You were beaten to it.
Oh… I’d kill for a garibaldi biscuit now. My dad always saved them from his ration packs for me. Tasty nostalgia.
Curses!
Good article about today’s shenanigans by John Crace in the Guardian.
This does all feel like too little, too late. The populist right wing headbangers of Farage and Johnson seem to be uniting in a common cause, on a war footing again.
And we all know how well that turned out last time
Would Nigel Farage be Hitler or Stalin in the Brexit non-aggression pact?
Oh FFS!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632
Democracy eh? Can't persuade parliament to do what we want so we'll prevent them from doing their job.
Well that should hopefully focus things for the MPs against No Deal acting in the interest of a vast majority of the country's population... Government announce Queen's Speech for October 14th, so parliament expected to shut down mid September.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632 <
Is this what 'Taking Back Control' was all about then?
There's been a certain inevitability to this since that * took office. They literally couldn't give a * about anything other than their insane agenda.
How long before this is Corbyns fault?
There’s been a certain inevitability to this since that * took office. They literally couldn’t give a * about anything other than their insane agenda.
Tories for years.
Not just recently.
This is bad enough to make we want to drink vodka from a 35cl bottle whilst driving.
Don't judge me.
you think the obvious answer from the queen would be "Well if you can't govern then either hand it over to someone who can or call a general election!"
Don’t judge me.
Why not, you appear to crave it
you think the obvious answer from the queen would be “if you can’t govern then either hand it over to someone who can or call a general election!”
That presumes the queen cares about anything more than her families privileged position.
Why not, you appear to crave it
Yeah, but you don't want to appear too keen. Gotta try and maintain a bit of mystery.
Yeah, but you don’t want to appear too keen. Gotta try and maintain a bit of mystery.
You need to try a bit harder on that.
Just take a second to look at this from the point of view of a third party.
An unelected populist PM is suspending parliament to force through an economically suicidal policy against the wishes of parliament and, almost certainly, the population at large.
All of a sudden, the 1930s seem like very recent history.....
You need to try a bit harder on that.
Probably. It's hard to concentrate with all the constitutional outrage.
The time to avoid this was before Parliament broke up for the summer. Flip back through this thread to that time to see why. In summary… government ministers resigned to vote against Boris and his No Deal plans… one asked the speaker for that vote to occur… he said it was down to the leader of the opposition to call for that vote… the can was kicked down the road putting the parliamentary timetable and all the political cards in Johnson’s hands.
That presumes the queen cares about anything more than her families privileged position.
That would be enough of a reason for the queen to be pissed off. She has done well for years by virtue of not having to make any decisions. Being pulled into this shitstorm is unlikely to be making them happy.
one asked the speaker for that vote to occur… he said it was down to the leader of the opposition to call for that vote
About 10mins then!!!
anagallis_arvensis
That presumes the queen cares about anything more than her families privileged position.
I think she does. Given that this could destroy the country and, possibly, see it break up, I think she would be heavily invested in making sure the government was honest.
With that said, she is apolitical and this might fall into the politics part of things, so might just be something that tradition demands is rubber stamped. If it is, I can imagine her being livid at being put in this position.
I do wonder what would happen if she did stop it though. Would the militant Leavers explode in some sort of weird frenzy?
It's a sorry state of affairs when your best hope of avoiding catastrophe is your ceremonial monarch. Right now though, Her Maj is infinitely more qualified to run the country than this shower of bastards.
I do wonder what would happen if she did stop it though. Would the militant Leavers explode in some sort of weird frenzy?
It makes Farage's recent attacks on the likes of Harry and Meghan look a bit more calculated, doesn't it............?
The time to avoid this was before Parliament broke up for the summer. Flip back through this thread to that time to see why
Well aside from the minor little detail that plenty of other tory remainers have been clear they wanted every other eventuality exhausting before going for a no confidence vote.
We now live in a dictatorship
It’s a sorry state of affairs when your best hope of avoiding catastrophe is your ceremonial monarch.
Well, apart from the case going through the Scottish courts to prevent this scenario.
Problem is your average Brexit supporter is probably a royalist so criticism of Brenda isn't a good move
The Queen isn't going to do anything, she can't. So don't waste your time hoping she will.
Time to abdicate, if she abdicates I'll take back a couple of the hundreds of horrible things I've said about the royals over the years.
Right now though, Her Maj is infinitely more qualified to run the country than this shower of bastards.
So's my cat.
Blame the Speaker. Blame Tories against No Deal. Blame Corbyn. Blame Swinson. Blame who the hell you want… the point is that all these people needed to get their ducks in a line before the summer recess… not kick the can down the road to a post summer sitting that the Johnson team has full power to neuter.
How long before this is Corbyns fault?
It is not Corbyns fault but he needs to grow a pair and offer credible opposition.
Democracy is seriously failing, we shouldn't underestimate just how devastating that is for the values of our country.
the point is that all these people needed to get their ducks in a line before the summer recess
The point is you were making a completely invalid claim. Do you still believe you are correct on that claim?
To paraphrase Bomber Harris
"The Remainers entered this Parliament under the rather childish delusion that they were going to use Parliamentary procedures to stop everyone else, and nobody was going to use Parliamentary procedures to stop them. At Westminster they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind."
What was my invalid claim?
The Queen isn’t going to do anything, she can’t.
+1
The Queen preventing a new Parliamentary session would be far more damaging to democracy than a PM picking a convenient moment to start a new Parliamentary session.
Well actually it wouldn't be damaging to democracy because we'd simply stop being a monarchy over night. The Queen only holds these powers *because* she will never, ever use them.
I was listening to the radio last night thinking "Great, the remainers have finally got a single clear strategy agreed.". Seems like it was a bit too late. (Deliberately so?)
What was my invalid claim?
That the time to stop it was before parliament broke up and that is was just down to the leader of the opposition to call the vote. When, anyone sensible, knew that the chances of success were minimal.
And Boris has sent a letter to Mps outlining plans to shutdown parliament that has produced an amusing reaction from Bercow and given the pound the wobbles. First Brexit news that's had me laughing out loud. Silly billy ****er.
To paraphrase Bomber Harris
Pathetic
Bingo !
was listening to the radio last night thinking “Great, the remainers have finally got a single clear strategy agreed.”. Seems like it was a bit too late. (Deliberately so?)
So the remainers are deliberately aiming for a no deal brexit?