Forum menu
I heard him say in an interview in the run up to him being voted in as PM that we just needed to 'get stuff done' for a brexit deal. Perhaps the stuff is not as easy as he thought.
Your facts won’t counteract his “feelings” … but it’s so nice that people still try. Oh, and if Johnson thinks that when it comes to a post Brexit trade deal he can ignore the smaller nations in the EU… reality will bite him in the arse.
It is kind of sweet that people still try, but the result will always be the same if anyone tries to construct a logical argument for the benefits of something that is:
a) Illogical
b) Of no benefit to anyone but a cynical and tiny clique.
It was a bit half-arsed in any case, and got immediately and conclusively refuted with facts.
Who the hell votes for this shower?
People who are desperate for someone to tell them they haven't made a terrible mistake.
Even if it's not true.
I haven't read the Nissan report, but you also have to balance this against the economic contribution that a higher-skill, more productive, higher-earning workforce brings, plus the local economy and supply-chain impacts. How much would the welfare and social impacts costs be for Sunderland without Nissan? I know for a fact that most Government Departments don't cost this because it's other departments responsibilities - it's firmly in the 'too difficult / too hard' box. I used to sit in meeting with DTI/BIS Officials asking this question and they'd just ignore it because it wasn't their responsibility.
An alternative is the likes of all the big supermarkets and much of our retail, hospitality and social care sectors are simply subsidised by paying minimum wage, zero hours contracts supported by welfare / benefits? Where do you draw the line?
Land Rover owned by Tata.
Nissan Leaf is Japanese owned.
I'm talking about state sponsoring of our very own electric car industry not making
batteries for another nations established industry.
But yeah, carry on with your half-a**ed fact checking and mutual back slapping if it makes you feel better.
I'm not against the government investment in Nissan, dovebiker, I was just demostrating that brexiter thebees was talking rubbish about the EU blocking government investment, see previous page, and directly above.
I’m talking about state sponsoring of our very own electric car industry not making
batteries for another nations established industry.
British batteries for British cars eh? Naturally.
Dang it. Why don’t Rolls Royce build complete aeroplanes too? Then we wouldn’t have to build our lovely engines just to have them put in a dirty forrin plane.
We might be on to something here......
Handily, if a no deal occurs, in the immediate term we are going to have to get a lot better at producing british goods for british people. Things like fruit, for example. This could be just the kickstart we need to rediscover our buccaneering spirit and stick it to the world.
This, of course, is the real trick of the populists. People don’t like the fact that the world is too complicated and interconnected to be fully understandable by anyone. So along come the populists and tell everyone it IS simple. You just have to believe. Just drink the Kool Aid.
I’m talking about state sponsoring of our very own electric car industry not making batteries for another nations established industry.
Hey, @thebees, which company did you have in mind? Singaporean Dyson? Morgan have canned their EV, haven’t they? Who does that leave? And would these entirely British electric cars be exported, or would we just keep them to ourselves… like some Brexit Electric Trabant?
I'm not sure what thebees is saying - are the EU blocking state aid of ecar manufacturing or something ?
Cox that's bollox
The European battery intiative is the EU (belatedly) getting on the bandwagon
I believe Sweden is the favourite for the first joint battery gigaplant
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/industry/policy/european-battery-alliance_en
Anyway 27 days left bojo , where's the plan ?
He's had 3 years so he's obviously got it all worked out then....
I’m not actually against
British batteries for British cars
But Bit of a problem when the rest of the world owns all the British iconic car brands.
Rolls-Royce,Mini,Land Rover and Aston Martin gasp all owned by foreigners , bit late to be banging the patriotic drum.
where’s the plan ?
And that is the same question that has been being asked for three years. Problem is (and always has been) that to admit enough for people to be able to plan effectively is so toxic that it would be political suicide, even in these stupid times.
Oh, but it is never too late to bang the patriotic drum for some people.
Brexit is self-inflicted damage, always has been and always will be.
Of course the government has a plan… it just has to keep it secret, otherwise they’d be showing their rEU opponents what their hand is… etc. Wink wink. And businesses, universities, councils, hospitals, ports, farmers, and families need to just crack on and prepare… government has published all those “you may have to” bits of advice on their website… so there you go, in the absence of a published plan, just prepare for all eventualities and everything will work out just fine. Honest.
^^^^
I suppose it is the international politics equivalent of the spiv.... there’s a watch in every box, you can trust me cor blimey.
Hardly a good way to run a country, though.
I like the British batteries for British cars idea, particularly if we come up with a totally unique charging adaptor such them foreigners can't come over and steal our leccy! Of course the problem with making stuff like batteries is that whilst the pound is taking a hammering on the change rate, all the materials will need to be imported and tariffs added to all exports...but of course that's all part of the great plan...
There may also be issues if the leccie to recharge is from those French EDF plants and distributed by Hong Kong owned networks, probably no chance of our China owned windfarms being tarrif free either...
We can make British batteries from British potatoes.
https://twitter.com/tomtugendhat/status/1165382238395162624?s=21
Everyone who said something along the lines of “no, I cannot point you to a plan for Northern Ireland in the event we vote to Leave, but it’s not an issue really, just vote Leave”… should be barred from public office of any kind, never mind allowed to be in the government.
Johnson also stating if its no deal he is not going to pay the money owed. Really? That will do so much to help us getting any treaties with anyone won't it. EU will certainly not do any sort of trade deal until its paid.
Bye bye city of london financial centre.
Nah he said he's not going to pay all of it, but the 39B was the amount due to cover funding from the march leave date, so 7 months of eu membership later we've already paid some of it and the balance owing on brexit day is reduced. Hence BoJo can claim he socks one to the EU by not paying the full 39B.
It is staggering how stupid the cabinet is (or at least how stupid they think the public is). I still maintain that Labour are only still fielding Corbyn because they do not want to win an election at this point. The ones that are running Labour obviously want the tories to completely own the mess from start to finish.
Plus not sure he could actually choose not to pay it. Bit like ending your mobile phone contact early by just not paying it anymore and keeping the phone. People will be coming round to get the phone...
Do you think anyone will do any deals with us especially the EU if we renege on legally binding obligations?
I still maintain that Labour are only still fielding Corbyn because they do not want to win an election at this point. The ones that are running Labour obviously want the tories to completely own the mess from start to finish.
I think the conservatives are going full no deal in the hope that someone steps in to stop them and give them an excuse. It's a ridiculous situation to find ourselves in.
Now Bj saying US will have to compromise to get trade deal with UK ..... Yeah right 😂😂
And Corbyn still wants to head the caretaker government and call a GE with a referendum to follow. Why not just go for the referendum first? I don't trust him as far as I could throw the chip on Binners shoulder.
going for the referendum first means a long caretaker government. going for a ge first means a short one
He can't be interim PM though.
Unless it's written in stone that I will get a chance to vote in a Referendum for revoking A50 I'm not voting for him in a GE.
Its been labour party policy for ages and made 100% clear a couple of weeks ago. Referendum with remain as an option.
You problem now is the lib dems who refuse to play with labour
Unless it’s written in stone that I will get a chance to vote in a Referendum for revoking A50 I’m not voting for him in a GE.
That's been Labour Party policy for the past couple of weeks. That doesn't mean that they will campaign for Remain, just that they would offer it as an option in a referendum.
We’re crashing out*. End of.
*Source: Slowest car-crash in history.
I guess you missed the bit where I said I don't trust him?
Have we discussed the power interconnectors - UK/Europe and UK/Ireland - which provide both import and export.
Back in 2015 the imports accounted for c7% of UK's power requirements with an objective of getting to c22%.
Tariffs anyone?
A 'Remain Option' or an 'Option for Remainers'?
Genuine question. The last quote I read said 'Options for remainers'. If there has been new wording since then I haven't read it.
And if someone does show me a quote where he says 'remain option' which one should I believe?
I think the conservatives are going full no deal in the hope that someone steps in to stop them and give them an excuse. It’s a ridiculous situation to find ourselves in.
Tbh it’s the only option they have left. Which is why they are playing it so hard.
After the Brexit date they are able to commence talks with the eu without any time restraint/parliamentary oversight and they’ve done Brexit so all boxes ticked an none of those annoying tax avoidance directives to enforce.
With Remain on the ballot paper
. simple, direct and no quibbling. Its a slight shift in position. Its been that way for weeks.
dude of doom - the problem with that is before we leave any deal is subject to qualified majority voting, after would need to be unanimous and of course after brexit and we go to the EU for a deal which we will need they will ask " where is our 39 billion, what about the NI border adn what about the rights of EU citizens in the UK" - or in other words the same issues will exist and our bargaining position will be worse
Its been that way for weeks.
11 days.
And very few people know… because it has in no way been communicated to the public by a leader who struggles to even spit the words out.
after would need to be unanimous
A key point. Trade deals are far harder to arrive at than the temporary retention of EU benefits in the withdrawal agreement. And the details of a trade deal as far reaching as we need with the EU will take years… yet we are throwing away the safety net they are offering to us to bridge that time. What on earth will happen in the meantime? I keep hearing intelligent people I trust now use the word “certainty” about a No Deal Brexit… utterly depressingly gaslighted group of nations that we are.
or in other words the same issues will exist and our bargaining position will be worse
Exactly!!
Ah but the thing that Boris needs most is achieved Brexit has been done people’s will respected.
Brexit party goes way of UKIP Tory party safe and Boris keeps his job
Hmm did we have a bargaining position to start with 🙂
Ah but the thing that Boris needs most is achieved Brexit has been done people’s will respected.
Until many of the people whose will has been respected are worse off and then it may be a case of Boris not doing it right.
Trade deals are far harder to arrive at than the temporary retention of EU benefits in the withdrawal agreement. And the details of a trade deal as far reaching as we need with the EU will take years… yet we are throwing away the safety net they are offering to us to bridge that time.
Yep... great isn’t it 🙁
Until many of the people whose will has been respected are worse off and then it may be a case of
Boristhe EU not doing it right.
Sadly. Or at least that’s the message being pushed hard right now… ready for that post Brexit election.
A ‘Remain Option’ or an ‘Option for Remainers’?
@Brucewee that's been my concern, i dislike/distrust the vagueness.
Remain on the ballot paper - thats the position and has been for weeks.!
Remain on the ballot paper – thats the position and has been for weeks.!
Aye, about 2 weeks
Sadly. Or at least that’s the message being pushed hard right now… ready for that post Brexit election.
Yes that is what they will try but No Deal exit will be 100% down to Boris. Parliament are against it and it won't be anyone's fault but his.
But it's still the default position unless something happens, something miraculous...
All boris needs to do is sit on his fat ass spouting platitudes and wait...
It's perfect for him and his elite cronies as the new EU tax evasion laws won't apply, and that, if you ask me is what all this has been about since the beginning.
Today is the all-party meeting to try and come up with a plausible plan to stop Boris driving through a no-deal Brexit.
Does anyone expect anything other than petty bickering, party self-interest ad subsequent blame-storming and grandstanding?
Dominic Cummings must be laughing his tits off as he prepares for the inevitable upcoming general election that Johnson is about to call, and Corbyn has this morning said he'll back
Dominic Cummings must be laughing his tits off as he prepares for the inevitable upcoming general election that Johnson is about to call, and Corbyn has this morning said he’ll back
You don't want a general election before we leave? Even if it's the only way to stop no deal? There is a plausible plan on the table. The only thing MPs have to do is support it and it will be successful. It depends what's most important to them, stopping no deal, or party/self-interest?
Remain on the ballot paper – thats the position and has been for weeks.!
Aye, about 2 weeks
Thanks both 🙂
UK Parliament is back from recess next week. Up until then this is all grandstanding and supposition. Things are about the get even more interesting. Lets find out who holds their nose and puts the good of the country ahead of party politics and personal gain.
The only thing MPs have to do is support it and it will be successful.
in the real world corbyn doesnt have the numbers, that fact has not changed
You don’t want a general election before we leave?
Yeah, Binners’ complaint makes little sense to me. An election before we leave, or an election once an extension is granted… both work. Of course, if it’s the former, you had better have already been hammering home a clear message as regards Brexit while out on the campaign trail…
There is a plausible plan on the table. The only thing MPs have to do is support it and it will be successful. It depends what’s most important to them, stopping no deal, or party/self-interest?
Is this the making Corbyn PM without an election plan? Tories will not back it. And anything they do now to stop No Deal Brexit will damage their party and destroy their one political careers, so it’s not really that which is the issue. Their objection to making Corbyn PM is more fundamental than that. They do not trust him or his Straight Left team to lead the country, even for a short time. They honestly believe that making him PM will be bad for the country. Their minds won’t be changed on that, so this plan was still born. I’m increasingly of the opinion that it was just a move to kill talk of a cross party temporary government, and little else.
If a snap election is called tomorrow, with Corbyn still in place as Labour leader, the Tories will walk it, as Boris's no deal, hardline rhetoric has shot the Brexit Party's fox. All those senile old racists voters will return to the fold.
That's the sad reality
Dominic Cummings is well aware of this
That's why they'll definitely call one. It also dissolves parliament and brings that cliff edge even closer, while what passes for the opposition continues to flail around hopelessly.
The Lib Dems, with their attitude over the last couple of weeks, now look about as much a cause for optimism as the leadership of the labour party
It’s too late to move North and vote SNP, isn’t it, sadly. So… vote for one of the shit UK options, just not Tory or Brexit Party… sadly it comes down to that choice, again. You can’t come to power based on that negativity alone… you need to be the positive option… I can’t see this going well, at all.
I still entertain a fantasy that the Sinn Fein will turn up and take their seats. And somebody will get a picture of the expression on BoJo's fatuous face.
Does anybody read the NewsThump ? I love the allusion to a classical epithet they use for BJ. In much the same way it was always "the wily Odysseus", "the brave Hector" etc etc it is always "massive b****nd Boris Johnson". How fitting.
NewsThump is always on the money. From today:
Horrible posh middle-aged white men announce plans to keep everything ****ed up
I've been on holiday for a week so I've just skipped the last 20 pages. Did I miss anything interesting?
What a surprise. For months remainers have been demanding that labour commit to a 2nd ref and remain option, now they have the goalposts are moving to revoking A50. Labour will never support this, because it gives the tories all the ammunition they need to paint Corbyn/labour as enemies of democracy/the people etc. The tabloids would plaster 'Corbyn the Dictator' all over the front pages and everyone will lap it up, including the people who demanded he take a revoke A50 position.
Isn’t the solution to stopping no deal obvious, just support Maybot’s deal?
Isn’t this a sensible compromise that respects the result of the referendum while avoiding no deal?
If Corbyn wants what’s best for the country why doesn’t he just support it?
goalposts are moving
Some “remainers” have always been pushing for us to withdraw our A50 notification. 6 million people signed a petition asking for it. LibDem conference voted for it. The Cherry amendment tried to make it the failsafe. I still personally think that the way forward is another referendum (reluctantly) but many people have been consistent in saying that A50 should be revoked ASAP. There is nothing to stop a majority government in future proposing an alternative to EU membership, and get us out of the EU, even if we do go down the revoke route. Democracy doesn’t stop.
What a surprise. For months remainers have been demanding that labour commit to a 2nd ref and remain option, now they have the goalposts are moving to revoking A50.
I know, it's crazy to think that once you get part of what you want you should keep asking for the rest.
[ only hearing sensible noises coming from that meeting today - a glimmer of sense and hope? ]
So, caretaker government is out, and they're planning on legislation to prevent no-deal.
What are the possibilities for legislation then?
I think we all know the answer to that.
I'm guessing the legislation will be to force a revocation of article 50 if s no deal becomes otherwise unavoidable.
That would force Boris to call a GE if he can't get a deal done
This option will be much easier for Tory rebel backing than supporting a VONC and transitional PM (even if it wasn't Corbyn), as it opposes Govt policy not Government right to rule. I realise it is effectively a VONC but the subtle differences matter
What are the possibilities for legislation then?
I don't really know but I know some tories support this approach, so it might well have the numbers in the commons, but what I'm unsure of is the time scales V's the deadline and the vehicle/mechanism that could be used..
Anyone?
What are the possibilities for legislation then?
By the sounds of it, nobody really knows. It doesn't look good though.
As we don't have a written constitution, a lot of it is dependent on parliamentary precedent, convention and its interpretation. The problem with that now being fairly obvious. We have an administration that doesn't give a flying **** about parliamentary precedent and convention and is happy to do whatever is necessary to force its agenda through, up to and including suspending parliament.
It's possible that the most significant person involved in all this, for the next couple of months, is going to be John Bercow. Boris has had a few shots across the bows on that front already, so it looks like he knows that too
Yep it's down to Bercow to allow MPs to vote to take over the business of the house, then pass the No No Deal legislation of their choosing. I don't think they'll get enough support for revoke so expect it'll be another extension.
But an extension is unlikely to be agreed unless for a ref or a GE..
Boris can call a GE next week for the 17th of October.
It all points to that.
Think he needs 2/3 of parliament to support a GE outside the fixed term parliament, so they can theoretically prevent him from using it as a tactic to let no deal happen while nobody's at the wheel. Of course that involves politicans turning down a chance to be in power, and would make JC's life difficult as its what he's been asking for since whenever (well, that and rural bus services natch).
Think he needs 2/3 of parliament to support a GE outside the fixed term parliament
That ship has already sailed. Corbyn has already said, only this morning, that if Boris calls an election then he'll back it. Which will presumably involve 3 line whipping his MPs to support.
Turkeys... Christmas... same old, same old...
Starmer reckons a GE on 17 Oct would allow new PM to extend A50 for a 2nd ref. If that is true then Labour and other 2nd ref parties would vote for it
Isn’t this a sensible compromise that respects the result of the referendum while avoiding no deal?
No. As I've explained at length multiple times on here.
The elephant in the room is that whilst May's deal is a best-case brexit scenario, arguably better than anyone could have hoped for, it's self-evidently worse than what we currently have. We get most of the benefits we currently enjoy, and still be held to most of our commitments for that to happen, only we'll no longer have a say at the table. We go from being rule-makers to rule-takers, it gains us nothing, which rather begs the question "why bother, then?" This is (I assume) why it's been kicked out of parliament several times. It's only a compromise in so far as neither side, leave or remain, want it.
Not that it deserves it, but the referendum result has been respected. We've spent three years trying to achieve the fundamentally unachievable.
We’ve spent three years trying to achieve the fundamentally unachievable.
That’s the problem though isn’t it? If we are a member of something which doesn’t allow it’s members to leave then is that something we want to be part of? That’s not my opinion BTW but it’s what all the Brexiteers will say, and many will agree with them.
If we are a member of something which doesn’t allow it’s members to leave then is that something we want to be part of?
You can leave any time you want. You just trigger Article 50 and off you pop. As it happens, it'll be October 31st.
Leaving isn't the issue as long as you're prepared to accept the consequences, which will be severe and many.
It seems that a lot of people are quite happy to do that.
They won't be by a week into November, obviously. Then they'll all be howling about this not being what they voted for and how has the government allowed this to happen, and how could the EU be so evil.
At that point, I think it's completely legitimate to punch them
That’s the problem though isn’t it? If we are a member of something which doesn’t allow it’s members to leave then is that something we want to be part of? That’s not my opinion BTW but it’s what all the Brexiteers will say, and many will agree with them.
That's not the case though, we can leave whenever we want, but our benefits and influence dissolve with our membership.
That's what brexiters don't understand.