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Yep, and this is why Labour took the path they took originally.
which worked 2 years ago, but they need a clear message now (+ as Johnson has shown, probably a new leader)
as many of us said Corbyn's change of stance was too little, too late
Try working for a local council for a while… and see what people really think about government “close” to them.
Once again you miss the point. People may not like the local council, but they understand that they are accountable. If they don't like what they're getting they call their local councillor or pick up the phone to have a go at some poor official in the council offices (and yes I have worked for a council actually!). Who do they call in the EU?
But I don’t believe they understand it any more than those in the middle or the top.
They understand the impact politics has on the lives of ordinary people, because they live it every day. Can those in the middle and professional classes say the same?
I won’t vote Labour while Corbyn leads the party. I think he’s an ineffective leader, and the only reason we’re in this situation is because of his pro-Brexit half-arsed opposition.
Total bollox. Sorry I'd elaborate on why but there's really no point is there? If this is really what you believe, then I'm afraid you're no better than the 'idiots' who were misled by Boris and Farage and voted against their own interests.
he’s an ineffective leader
@dazh - this isnt total bollocks, whatevr you think of his politics, his leadership is below what is currentl required. Competing factions of the labour party are saying whatever they want sending contradicting messagea so there is little clarity. I believe it is primarily for this reason that Labour are not polling beter and why peopel think Corbyn is untrustworthy. If he was a beeter leader there would be consistent messages coming out from all reltively senior members of the labour party.
Competing factions of the labour party are saying whatever they want sending contradicting messagea so there is little clarity.
If he was a beeter leader there would be consistent messages coming out from all reltively senior members of the labour party.
this!!
the country is polarised & its crunch time, sitting on the fence was the wrong long term strategy
They understand the impact politics has on the lives of ordinary people, because they live it every day.
Do they know what specific policies are affecting their lives and how? Are they struggling because of austerity, or immigration, or Brexit, or what? If they are in work how does austerity affect them?
You have to understand a little bit of economics and politics to make sense of it, and because it's not taught in schools you have to want to learn about. Which few people do.
This is why I think politics and economics should be mandatory in schools, even a short course as part of citizenship or something.
the country is polarised & its crunch time, sitting on the fence was the wrong long term strategy
Any attempt to retrospectively decide a different strategy would have been better is just going to be wishful thinking I'm afraid.
If he was a beeter leader there would be consistent messages coming out from all reltively senior members of the labour party.
Sorry but this is utterly moronic. The only way he could impose that sort of discipline is if he could easily sack those senior members or have some other form of serious influence.
Blair did well since the MPs were so low at the beginning he managed to stack it with loyalists to him. Even then though he got defeated multiple times.
Cameron was similar looked all competent up until the point he went for something that his MPs disagreed with him on (plus a large part of the media) at which point he got his arse kicked.
The only way you get a completely consistent message is a)ability to threaten b)creating a cult c)where conditions are in your favour.
Once again you miss the point. People may not like the local council, but they understand that they are accountable. If they don’t like what they’re getting they call their local councillor or pick up the phone to have a go at some poor official in the council offices (and yes I have worked for a council actually!). Who do they call in the EU?
Hmm their MEP perhaps 🙂
Sorry but this is utterly moronic. The only way he could impose that sort of discipline is if he could easily sack those senior members or have some other form of serious influence
Bullshit. Good leaders get people on board, they have a strategy and get people to buy into it. Instead, there have been several occasions in the last year or so when one shadow cabinent member has said one thing and then a couple of hours later it has been flatly contradictd by another.
He can easily alter his shadow cabinent if he feels it isnt performing adequately.
EDIT. Perhaps more to the point, from an electoral (/possible second refernedum) point of view; its whether the gneral public percieve him as a good leader and trustworthy. I know very few that do (althouh the same goes for BJ); and I do think this is due to the lack of consistency among the labour front bench.
Hmm their MEP perhaps
Ha ha ha ha! Seriously? And what good will that actually do? There's a reason no one knows who their MEP is, and that's because they are a complete waste of space.
that’s because they are a complete waste of space
If only they'd bothered to get off their arse and vote in a proper MEP instead of a one issue protest group that deliberately messes in their own nest. Then they might have an MEP worth contacting.
what molgrips said about economics and politics, x2
Bullshit. Good leaders get people on board,
Sorry but this really is buying into the myth of the all glorious leader. Leaders work best when they get to chose who is in their team. Whereas Corbyn is stuck with a bunch of people who hate anything vaguely left of centre and seemingly want more to destroy the left resurgence in the Labour party than anything else. It wasnt just Corbyn, although they doubled down on him, but Ed Milliband as well.
He can easily alter his shadow cabinent if he feels it isnt performing adequately.
It depends on who he gets to chose from. Its a limited bunch especially since many of the backbenches would prefer everything to end in flames rather than to seriously support him. Since they see that as their best way of regaining control of Labour.
There’s a reason no one knows who their MEP is, and that’s because they are a complete waste of space.
Yes there is. Which is the UK hasnt bothered taking the EU elections seriously.
So we have lots of UKIP/Brexit MEPs who cant be arsed to do their jobs and even in the other parties they come across as second rate most of the time. Which bearing in mind the mess Westminster is in is saying something.
That isnt the EU fault though but our own political and cultural structure.
that’s because they are a complete waste of space
I have a councillor that responds to queries, and an MEP who does likewise (alongside some who do not)… but I have an MP (and I guess so do you) who blocks constituents on social media if they ask any question of him at all, and leaves his team to send back vacuous answers to emails and letters. I am far better represented in the European Parliament than I am at Westminster. The “I don’t know what they do, so they must be doing shit all” attitude to our MEPs is part of why we are where we are.
We should probably save all the “people don’t trust Corbyn” stuff for the other thread… but I still do not, even though I will be voting Labour at the next election. He isn’t suddenly going to become the man who the country gets behind, sadly, and needs to move on. Wishing it otherwise is not enough.
There’s a reason no one knows who their MEP is, and that’s because they are a complete waste of space.
They are? Have you ever dealt with one?
You can't blame them for the fact that most people in the UK don't engage with EU politics. Despite moaning about the influence the EU has on their lives. Moronic if you ask me.
They are? Have you ever dealt with one?
Point missed again. I have no doubt many MEPs are hardworking and engaged with their constituents, but what difference does that make? They go back to Strasbourg and do what? Has anyone got any examples of an MEP successfully changing EU policy based on the representations of their constituents? As far as I'm aware there are very few, if any, examples of the EU parliament vetoing or changing EU legislation as proposed by the EU commission. I'm happy to be corrected but the influence the electorate has on EU policy via their MEPs is negligible.
Has anyone got any examples of an MEP successfully changing EU policy based on the representations of their constituents?
No, but have you got any examples of the opposite? Have you ever actually tried engaging in the process? If not, then you're just making stuff up to smear the EU.
As far as I’m aware there are very few, if any, examples of the EU parliament vetoing or changing EU legislation as proposed by the EU commission.
This is because the Commission proposes legislation in consultation with Parliament so that it'll pass. It's not comabtive like in UK domestic politics. There's no point in the Commission proposing something that they know will be voted down. Haven't we already covered this?
The UK electorate probably have as much influence on EU policy as they do on UK policy.
The UK is about as well repesented in the "big" EU positions, as other member nations, as far as I know.
They go back to Strasbourg and do what?
Stand in EU parliament, table proposals and reports, vote on stuff, that sort of thing.
It's a bit like the UK parliament, just organised slightly different.
I feel like I've just written something incredibly patronising, but it seems necessary.
As far as I’m aware there are very few, if any, examples of the EU parliament vetoing or changing EU legislation as proposed by the EU commission.
are you being willfully ignorant?
making amendments is exactly what MEPs spend their time doing
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/committees/en/amendments.html
Im sure as a job its dull as dishwater (why do you think farage never bothered to turn up to his fisheries committee)
Stand in EU parliament, table proposals and reports, vote on stuff, that sort of thing.
Attend committees and push for change via that or, alternately, dont bother turning up and then pretend to be the champion of the British fishing industry.
My opinion is that our MEPs do badly under perform on the whole but that isnt the EUs fault. Thats our countries fault and I cant see how the EU could fix it short of measures which would be, accurately, called undemocratic hence why the EU doesnt try them.
So I had a quick google, for no real reason. I figured I'd look up a couple of UK MEPs just for giggles. To see what "they" do in Strasbourg.
So. Edward Macmillan-Scott, UK MEP, was one of the European VPs for a number of years - fairly senior position really, so we should all probably know who he is, right? He did stuff involving election oversight in countries that have a tendency to be a bit bent at election time and other stuff as part of a Human Rights and Democracy role.
Or, Diana Wallis, UK MEP again, she was another Euro VP (first British female Euro VP apparently) - in at the start of the transparency register, to try and stop lobbyists from buying up politicans, also set up some legislation banning trade of Seal products and probably some other stuff.
On a less humanitarian and more commercial note, everyone's least favourite Lib Dem leader, Clegg, steered the telephone loop unbundling regs in a more customer friendly direction while he was there.
We're apparently quite well represented in the top jobs.
I feel quite sad that Britain has decided it would be better to do absolutely no more of this sort of stuff.
are you being willfully ignorant?
No, it’s not wilful.
There’s a reason no one knows who their MEP is, and that’s because they are a complete waste of space.
I have no doubt many MEPs are hardworking and engaged with their constituents, but what difference does that make?
Point missed again.
when you've made one, and don't directly contradict it with your next post, maybe you'll get taken more seriously.
are you being willfully ignorant?
No, it’s not wilful.
🙂 🙂 🙂
A timely reminder from Merkel of how a top politician operates telling Johnson she will listen to anything and if he comes up with a workable arrangement for the border the backstop is no longer needed - and he has 30 days to do it.
Showing she is not being intransigent and throwing the onus back on Johnson.
Johnson and the UK press will still spin it as 'we've done our best by offering vague platitudes but the nasty EU won't negociate" though.
The UK press (and TV&Radio media) have already reported various “come forward with a proposal that can be ready to go before the end of the implementation period and we can write it into the political declaration to prevent the backstop having any use or force” comments from EU officials and member state governments as “refuse to talk”… they’ll treat this much the same I fear.
I'm genuinely surprised at how easily Merkel played him
kimbers
Subscriber
I’m genuinely surprised at how easily Merkel played him
Was great to see though want it?
A Poundland Trump up against a true and experienced world leader.
... He basically just caved.
Yes Boris, the onus is on YOU.
On a less humanitarian and more commercial note, everyone’s least favourite Lib Dem leader, Clegg, steered the telephone loop unbundling regs in a more customer friendly direction
If they’re the best examples we can find of MEPs showing their worth it’s little wonder people voted for brexit in their millions.
It’s pretty hilarious how appreciative everyone suddenly is of their MEPs and EU politics. Can any of you honestly say you knew who your MEP was before 2016?
Kimbers - really? She is a politician of a stature we no longer have. I don't always agree with her but she is astute, well informed, has good moral values and above all else experience. She played him with ease and aplomb
I said a while back that I was looking forward to this meeting. Johnson has no idea how to deal with women like her. A part of his stunted emotional growth. He simply is unable to cope.
Gonna be interesting how they try to spin it.
It’s pretty hilarious how appreciative everyone suddenly is of their MEPs and EU politics. Can any of you honestly say you knew who your MEP was before 2016?
I know very little of what the components do in my TV but by and large I'm happy with the overall effect.
Also, having seen "our" politicians versus EU politicians of late I know which I have more faith in.
Reading all the dazhsplaining...it’s like having a Lexiteer version of jambalaya back in the thread. Refreshing.
I’m genuinely surprised at how easily Merkel played him
I'm supprised that that you're supprised lol!
27 nations, the most powerful trading bloc in human history V's boris Johnson who's doing nothing more than parrot theresa may in more patronising way!?
it’s like having a Lexiteer version of jambalaya
Apart from the fact I’m a remainer and always have been. Got anything to say other than juvenile smartarse comments?
Well I laughed anyway deadlydarcy 🙂
What's really funny is that Dominic Cummings has postponed an operation to strategize for Johnson
He's made sure every statement by Johnson and his cabinet, every staged photo op & headline in the rw press has carefully built on the narrative that we can't get a deal because it's all the EUs fault...
A 10 minute press conference with Merkel and Johnson has managed to shift responsibility onto himself
He's gonna go full Tucker on bojo tomorrow
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lcrPoIyTf-c
Can any of you honestly say you knew who your MEP was before 2016?
Who has ONE single MEP?
Don’t get angry… get informed.
Unrelated… but love this from the longest standing MEP for our region…
One of my daughters, when collecting stamps, said that I collect papers. That, and the fact that I’ve written several books that are highly valued by insomniacs, should convince you that I’m the most boring person you can safely vote for.
And now Macron is saying no new deal.
Good cop, bad cop.
So did Merkel
All she said was if you can come up with something that means the backstop is not needed this can be added to the political declaration
A timely reminder from Merkel of how a top politician operates telling Johnson she will listen to anything and if he comes up with a workable arrangement for the border the backstop is no longer needed – and he has 30 days to do it.
Showing she is not being intransigent and throwing the onus back on Johnson.
I found the exchange quite revealing considering the original rhetoric and demands from Bojo he was actually like a puppy.
I was expecting a more defiant attitude and was surprised that he didn’t actually get what she’d just done.
He has no idea how to deal with women like Merkel. Part of his flawed upbringing / character. She also has more political nous in her pinky than he has in his whole body. This is what happens when an able political operator meets someone who is all bluff and bluster
surprised that he didn’t actually get what she’d just done.
<Shhhhhh - don't tell anyone, but I'm not sure he's very bright... >
That was a cracking return of serve by Frau Merkel. Whatever Boris does he's going to upset someone he relies on.
So how is todays meeting going to go.
My bet - hard line from Macron but leaving space for the 30 dys to find a solution - something along the lines of " tell us what you want specifically and outline the alternative arrangements" coupled with " come back when you have a serious proposal" from Macron and bluster along the lines of " I knew they didn't want to negotiate" from Johnson
If they’re the best examples we can find of MEPs showing their worth it’s little wonder people voted for brexit in their millions.
They were a mere handful of examples I found with a half arsed five minutes on google.
Also, re the other point, no, I had no idea of the identity of "my MEP", but the TV analogy works for me, I was generally happy with how Europe seemed to be working out, so I didn't need to care much.
cracking return of serve by Frau Merkel
I'd genuinely prefer Boris Becker to be our PM.
Also, re the other point, no, I had no idea of the identity of “my MEP”, but the TV analogy works for me, I was generally happy with how Europe seemed to be working out, so I didn’t need to care much.
Plus, of course, the reason it's difficult to identify a single MEP as your representative is down to the election process used - something which is selected by the Nation State, not the EU. Blame Westminster for the regional use of De Hondt (Sp?).
Well Macron just said that it is down to Boris to find a solution if he doesn't want the backstop.
Boris only reply was that the referendum result had to be respected.
My bet – hard line from Macron but leaving space for the 30 dys to find a solution – something along the lines of ” tell us what you want specifically and outline the alternative arrangements” coupled with ” come back when you have a serious proposal” from Macron and bluster along the lines of ” I knew they didn’t want to negotiate” from Johnson
Not quite 100% right on Johnsons reply but Macron and Merkel have firmly called his bluff and thrown all the onus back on him while all he could do was bluster and grin inanely
30 love
Headline from that link…
Migration experts say the UK cannot end freedom of movement from the EU on Brexit day because it has no system to work out who is legally in the country.
Of course FoM can end when the government wants it to… it just can’t do so without having a detrimental effect on many of the people who are already here legally and correctly… but then the Windrush mess tells us that won’t necessarily stop them… it’a a great chance to blow those dog whistles…
I heard on Radio4 a few minutes ago a proposed solution to not having checks on the Irish border was to have them 10minutes away.
^needs a string vest and a can of wifebeater..
Looks like he's about to do a massive Trump and make those flags flutter.
"Emmanuel - pull my finger"
Grandstanding prick.
I’d genuinely prefer Boris Becker to be our PM.
He's just as bankrupt.
Foot on the table, foot on the floor, flies open and todger out, dressed as Huggy Bear with a couple of bar girls draped over him...... None of it makes any difference. He is a chump. He is out of his depth and would get pwned over an issue he had a good chance with. As it is, he is dealing with an impossibility within a contradiction in a wrapping of farce.
Merkel basically waved him away with the truth. “It is your mess, tosspot, you sort it out”. Macron likewise.
Every week this nonsense drags on, Britain is further diminished. And to think it was spittle flecked gammony ‘patriots’ who wanted it most. It would be delicious if it was happening to someone else.
Yep that table scene that was basically 2 men arsing about but We got
Macho Macron tried to boss Boris Johnson... but the bumbling bulldog fought back
From the telegraph.
Gotta love reporting an er just making shit up.
Tbh I’m always expecting the Dambusters music when Bojos on.
The brilliant Facebook page 'The Thick of it quotes' used a favourite Malcolm Tuckerism to caption that photo:
"feet off the furniture you Oxbridge ****, you're not on a punt now!"
None of it makes any difference. He is a chump. He is out of his depth and would get pwned over an issue he had a good chance with. As it is, he is dealing with an impossibility within a contradiction in a wrapping of farce.
Not a chump , are you getting paid £270k for writing BS and are you living rent free and having your mortgage paid and a rather nice pension as well as 100k pocket money and free trips and accommodationt to France Plus a nice job on a board of some company when you leave 🙂
He knows exactly what’s happening and he’s happy enough to take the job, it’s a win for him however it goes down, 52% voted to go Fk themselves(and unfortunately the rest of us).
He's not even a poundland trump chump. Boris Piccaninny Watermelon Letterbox Cake Bumboys Vampires Haircut Inconclusive-Cocaine-Event Wall-Spaffer Johnston
So far out of his depth I almost start to feel sorry for him,almost.
The circus rolls on but nothing has changed. As always the choices are: Withdrawal Agreement, no deal, revoke.
Withdrawal Agreement is still dead in the water. Brexiters who don't actually want Brexit still won't vote for it. Opposition parties are still playing People's Front of Judea. Government is treating this as an election campaign.
So sad to see this country slowly disappear up it's own arsehole.
From the telegraph.
and from the Daily Fail it's presented as
Brexit Boost for Boris
Tally ho chaps, get the Spitfires out, he's only gone and given old Fritzy the what for.
That "footstool" photo says everything about how out of his depth he is. Macron is smart enough to know that BJ is dumb enough to put his foot on that table and look like a chump. never mind the story the picture is what people will remember.
Secretary of State for NI @JulianSmithUK says he’s confident @BorisJohnson can get a #Brexit deal but doesn’t want to provide a running commentary on what alternative arrangements could be put in place for the border
Translate. I haven't got a clue what these alternative arrangments are
Lucas:
A no-deal Brexit would be a disaster for this country and parliament must prevent it in any way possible. Jeremy Corbyn has done the right thing by reaching out to colleagues and I welcome the fact that all the opposition parties in the House of Commons have accepted his invitation for discussions. I would urge all MPs who have been approached and who recognise the danger this country faces to join these talks with an open mind. We all need to put our country’s future first.
That means either pursuing legislative measures or a vote of no confidence in a Boris Johnson government which is showing every intention of driving this country off the edge of a cliff, and replacing it with a caretaker government which is committed to giving the people the right to decide on the Brexit deal.
I am prepared to support Jeremy Corbyn as leader of this caretaker government, as should any MP who wants to stop a no-deal Brexit. But if he cannot gain the support of a sufficient number of colleagues across parliament, I hope he will be prepared to back another MP from his party, or another, who can. I will ask him again to make his position clear in our discussions next week.
I will also continue to make the case that we need a people’s vote before a general election, as the only certain way of ensuring that the British people have the final say on Brexit.
Now why couldn't Swinson strike a similar tone? That really shows just how divorced from reality and how stupid Swinson is.
Make your point, don't put peoples backs up. leave all doors open
If Corbyn and Labour really want to stop No Deal why don’t they just support the Maybot’s deal?
Surely with Labour supporting it there would be enough to get it through parliament?
Even if they get in power are they really going to negotiate something better?
BJ is dumb enough to put his foot on that table and look like a chump
Nail, head.
If it smells like a chump, walks like a chump and quacks like a chump, it's Boris.
Even if they get in power are they really going to negotiate something better?
Of course they won't, but, the deal-that-is-0.01%-different might just have Labour written on it.
Judging from the press today, even if Boris found a herd of unicorns willing to invisibly patrol the Irish border and make the backstop redundant; the ERG still wont vote the deal through. Why would they when the no-deal they desire is so close to being acheived. Hopefully that will focus anti-no-dealers minds, the arguemnt BJ could still get a deal is void if there are enoguh hardliners who will oppose it.
European Union my ar**. It's a French/German carve up.
Go on then, tell me he's off to Malta or Latvia next.
Other EU nations aren't even allowed to provide government funding to get electric
car manufacturing industries off the ground, which leaves it to those
countries with an existing auto industry in place. That'd be Germany and France then.
That's incorrect, thebees, as this approval for state aid for an electric car battery plant in Poland proves.
https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-744_en.htm
And the UK government is providing funding for Land Rover's electric car project:
That’d be Germany and France then.
Or the new LR plants in Slovakia.
And Spain, Czech Republic, Belgium, Italy, Poland, Romania, Sweden, Portugal (shall I carry on?).
Your facts won’t counteract his “feelings” … but it’s so nice that people still try. Oh, and if Johnson thinks that when it comes to a post Brexit trade deal he can ignore the smaller nations in the EU… reality will bite him in the arse.
He did specify electric cars, Matt. Sunderland is where the Leaf battery is put together I believe and the car assembled, that plant has benefitted from huge subsidies while Britain has been in the EU:
http://www.corporate-welfare-watch.org.uk/wp/2017/09/26/nissan-nearly-1bn-corporate-welfare/
Lying bastard - I'm sure he said this would be easy...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49445607
Who the hell votes for this shower?