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Kelvin it doesn't really matter that you don't like it, the facts are that the leader of the opposition is the only person who can call a no confidence vote, and has the right to form a govt if a VONC is successful. That's not a party political issue, it's a constitutional convention. By all means lets rip up the rules and put something else in it's place, but there's not time to do that before we leave the EU with no deal so make your mind up about what is more important.
Yes he must call the VONC… but no he doesn’t have to put his own name forward as the PM of a government he proposes to replace the current one. It would be highly unconventional… but pretending his hands are tied by the rules is utter astroturfing bullshit appearing through all the normal tedious on message channels.
the facts are that the leader of the opposition is the only person who can call a no confidence vote,
correct
and has the right to form a govt if a VONC is successful.
not correct
I don't understand the debate here. It's a temporary position. Get behind Corbyn and block the vote. It's all that's on offer.
Then have a G.E.
Yes he must call the VONC… but no he doesn’t have to put his own name forward as the PM of a government he proposes to replace the current one.
Why not he has a huge mandate!
the leader of the opposition is the only person who can call a no confidence vote,
No, that's wrong, check out the fixed term parliaments act 2011. The SNP, Greens, Plaid and Lib Dems have already tabled a no confidence motion.
and has the right to form a govt if a VONC is successful.
He has the right to have a crack at it, but so does any other MP. The constitution states that the government can be formed by any MP who can command a majority.
Why not he has a huge mandate!
Really? From who?
Why not he has a huge mandate!
Not in the commons he doesn’t. There are plenty of MPs who will not only balk at putting Corbyn in as PM, but know those who elect them would as well.
He can try and blackmail MPs by saying he’ll let No Deal happen, rather than let anyone else try and get cross party support, and people can join in the “Corbyn or no one” chants… but if it doesn’t work… then what?
No, that’s wrong, check out the fixed term parliaments act 2011. The SNP, Greens, Plaid and Lib Dems have already tabled a no confidence motion.
No, you're wrong. Any MP can propose it but only Corbyn can introduce it.
Edukator - others can table a VONC but only the official leader of the opposition can have one that must be debated. The speaker can and does ignore the others not giving it time for debate.
Why not he has a huge mandate!
If he had a huge mandate he would already be PM. He needs the support of MPs who were elected on their own mandate.
Compromise solution - none of the current party leaders become caretaker PM but instead a less divisive figure who people could coalesce around.
Also Corbyn wants GE before ref. Should be other way around. By sticking to this all Corbyn is doing is showing that he is hungry for power with no guarantee that he would win a FPTP GE and we would be back in this shit show possibly with a mandated no deal Tory/Brexit party coalition..................
Get behind Corbyn and block the vote. It’s all that’s on offer.
It's not us that has to get behind the vote its our MPs
That means cross party support
If there was some evidence Corbyn had that I'd be behind it, but have any said they would?
Any MP can propose it but only Corbyn can introduce it.
That’s down to the speakers discretion. He’s stuck with that convention for now. Realistically there is little point anyone else calling a VONC though, as the second biggest party has to be behind it for there to be any chance of success.
It’s not us that has to get behind the vote its our MPs
Exactly. I’d personally be more than happy for Parliament to proceed exactly as per Corbyn’s letter, with him becoming the interim PM… but I also want a plan that’ll work in Parliament… in good time and without any more of the brinkmanship damaging this country.
Compromise solution – none of the current party leaders become caretaker PM but instead a less divisive figure who people could coalesce around.
It’s so obviously the only plan that can move us forward, isn’t it.
That’s down to the speakers discretion. He’s stuck with that convention for now.
And is there any evidence at all that the Speaker plans to break with parliamentary convention on this matter?
No, and as things stand there would be no point in doing so.
^ A moot point then.
Pragmatism just being another thing to add to the long list of political instincts he is completely devoid of
Pragmatism is exactly what he's been showing all this time, because he's accepting the fact that so much of his voter base voted leave. This simply cannot be ignored, no matter how you (or I) wish it would be.
GE then ref means a short interim government. Ref then GE means a long interim government. I would prefer a short interim government.
Corbyns proposal is just that - a proposal. Its a starting point for negotiations. Everyone else of the major political players understands this and will go in to discussions without preconditions. Swinson seriously misjudged her response and by doing so made no deal more likely.
If in the negotiations it becomes apparent that not enough support will gather around Corbyn as PM then someone needs to make a counter proposal. thats what negotiation is. shouting from the rooftops " I am not playing" is not negotiation.
Its not just his voter base Molgrips - its 1/4 of his mps
someone needs to make a counter proposal
They have. They get shouted down. The Clarke&Harman proposal seems sound to me.
On a practical level then, if Grandad is the only person who can call the VONC, if he decides that he can't get the support to let him play at being PM for a bit, he can just refuse to call it, sit back and await no deal?
Thats the only option?
Not in the commons he doesn’t. There are plenty of MPs who will not only balk at putting Corbyn in as PM, but know those who elect them would as well.
This is the issue. There are sufficient labout MPs who, for whatever reason, want Brexit even if it is no-deal; that he will need a large tranche of tory MPs to back him. Many have said they wouldn't do this, whatever their brexit beliefs. This probably does go to show that they are primarily after saving their own jobs (see point two above), but as the youth like to say 'it is what it is'
Unless there is a concrete plan for post-VONC that is credible and has majority support we are doomed. I don't beieve ammending motions will do anything but delay and add confusion. VONC and election/refernedum is the only way.
GE then ref means a short interim government. Ref then GE means a long interim government. I would prefer a short interim government.
Personally I think a GE would lead to a hung parliment and more uncertainty. Second ref is cleaner and probably shorter timescale for clarity overall
The Clarke&Harman proposal seems sound to me.
It won’t be easy I would think, for everyone to forget that Clarke was a member of Thatcher’s government, nor for Corbyn to stand aside and let Harman take the lead when she has openly called for him to stand down as leader.
Swinsons letter to corbyn - Shes said the lib dems could support corbyn, but they dont think he has the numbers, so theres no point.
Balls in Jezzers court now, really...
Dear Jeremy,
Thank you for your letter of 14th August 2019 in relation to stopping a damaging “No Deal” Brexit.
We are determined to do whatever it takes not only to stop “No Deal” but also to stop Brexit.
Since becoming Leader of the Liberal Democrats, I have travelled across the United Kingdom speaking to people in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to discuss their concerns and worries. It is clear that a “No Deal” Brexit is a bad for our environment, bad for our NHS, bad for rural Britain, and bad for our family of nations.
So, in this moment of national emergency, I stand ready to work with anyone to stop Boris Johnson and his hard-line Brexit government in pursuing “No Deal”. My party has already been working with the Labour Party and other opposition parties to do this for many months now. That will continue under my leadership.
As I said before the start of the summer Recess, the Liberal Democrats will support a motion of no confidence in the government if it is brought before the House of Commons. If the motion is successful and a new Prime Minister is sought, our constitution operates on the principle that that person must command majority support of the House of Commons.
Based on on-the-record statements that have already been made, at least seven MPs on the opposition benches have indicated they would not give you confidence in these circumstances. Regardless of how my party were to vote in those circumstances, in order for you to command the confidence of the House, at least eight Conservative MPs would need to support you in taking office. For this and other reasons, I do not believe your plan is viable. I would be interested to know whether eight or more Conservative MPs have indicated to you that they will support you in these circumstances.
However, there are clearly other senior members of the House who could potentially command a majority in the House. Today I suggested that Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman, the Father and Mother of the House, could lead an emergency government.
They are the most experienced Members of the House, widely respected on both sides, and neither are seeking to lead a government in the long-term. I would be interested to hear your suggestions. I can understand that you would have a preference for a Labour alternative. Indeed, if she can command the support of the House of Commons Harriet Harman would be Labour’s first female Prime Minister.
Obviously, we hope legislative measures in the House of Commons will be successful in securing an extension to Article 50 to ensure that the UK does not fall out of the European Union with No Deal and no long-term security or stability.
Finally, a People’s Vote on any Brexit deal is vital. I hope that you can reassure me, and everyone campaigning for a People’s Vote to give the British people the final say on Brexit, that you are doing all you can to can to persuade the 25 or more Labour MPs who have previously voted against it to now back it in a Commons vote. I hope that we can now count on the full support of all Labour Members of Parliament.
I am ambitious for the Liberal Democrats, as you are for the Labour Party, but we are facing a national crisis and we may need an emergency government to resolve it. This isn’t the time for personal agendas and political games. We cannot allow party politics to stand in the way of Members from all sides of the House of Commons working together in the national interest. What matters right now is a plan that works and will stop a “No Deal” Brexit.
With this in mind, I would be happy and keen to meet in the coming days to discuss how our parties can work together to stop “No Deal” and who else might be able to lead an emergency government.
I look forward to hearing from you.
My door remains, as ever, open.
Yours sincerely,
Jo Swinson MP
Second ref is cleaner and probably shorter timescale for clarity overall
No chance of Corbyn backing that… when does he get to try and get his own version of Brexit?
nor for Corbyn to stand aside and let Harman take the lead when she has openly called for him to stand down as leader.
So you say there’s no chance of Corbyn backing that plan either?
Where did the labour party dismiss the Harmon / Clarke idea? Maybe I missed it.
This isn’t the time for personal agendas and political games. We cannot allow party politics to stand in the way of Members from all sides of the House of Commons working together in the national interest. What matters right now is a plan that works and will stop a “No Deal” Brexit.
Hypocrite as that is exactly what she has been doing.
At least she has now rowed back a long way from her initial position
Where did the labour party dismiss the Harmon / Clarke idea? Maybe I missed it.
I dont't belive Labour have responded yet.
Will be interesting to see how corbyn responds
unless he can show that he can get the Tory moderates on board he's really got to back a clarke/harman type plan
Maybe I missed it.
No, I think you’re right. No formal response from the party. Just lots of shouting from the usual suspects about Corbyn being the only option because… blah blah…
would like to see the workings on this
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1162117238645764101
Swinson should invoke "Hattersleys rule" which is " When in a hole stop digging"
Balls in Jezzers court now, really…
I don’t see how it is. Maybe Swinson needs to start convincing those Tory MPs. A lot of people seem to claim that Corbyn wants out of the EU, even that he really wants no deal; if that’s so what would motivate him to stand aside? Maybe he’s learnt some negotiating tactics from the government and believes he has to be willing to walk away ; )
The ref needs to come first, so the parties can propose their manifestos on their vision of the result.
nor for Corbyn to stand aside and let Harman take the lead when she has openly called for him to stand down as leader.
So you say there’s no chance of Corbyn backing that plan either?
I said I feel it won’t come easily to Corbyn to do that, which is a long way from no chance. Really though, I’m just guessing.
The ref needs to come first
I can’t wait for the thread on what the second referendum question should be!
Where did the labour party dismiss the Harmon / Clarke idea? Maybe I missed it.
you don''t have to wait for it, there's no way Corbyn and his team will accept it, as it will mean the end of his career as leader.
Corbyn being a good player of the political game is very unlikely to make any public pronouncements on other steps to take. He understands that negotiations are not done by shouting from the rooftops.
Swinson is also conflating two differnt things. Support for a vote of no confidence and support fro a Corbyn led government.
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Where did the labour party dismiss the Harmon / Clarke idea? Maybe I missed it.you don”t have to wait for it, there’s no way Corbyn and his team will accept it, as it will mean the end of his career as leader.
Pure pish. He could easily stay on as leader of the labour party but put his support behind a different person as caretaker PM
Owen Jones in the Grauniad raises a good point - the reason people like Swinson and Ummna will not support Corbyn as caretaker PM is that people will see he is not the demon they claim he is.
They are also scared of a GE
So if Jezza doesn't get to play at being PM in the event of a VONC, can he just refuse to call the VONC and sit back and wait for no deal? He has caveated calling a VONC with 'when we believe we can win it'.
I'm presuming his definition of 'winning' it involves him getting the keys to number 10?
I’m presuming his definition of ‘winning’ it involves him getting the keys to number 10?
If there's one person in all of this who looks like the least power-hungry, it's Corbyn.
Dominic Grieve has said he would not back a Corbyn interim govt.. and I guess he is a good indicator of moderate tories.. if anything more willig to compromise than many.
Any feeling for how many Labour Brexiteers would be happy to forego or postpone brexit for a non-tory govt? I guess it depends on who is leadin it. The devil really is in the detail.
Also we currently have 15 independants.. one of whom has said they woudlnt vot for a Corbyn plan. With such small margins, what each one of them decidse will be important.
If grieve wont back corbyn as caretaker its definitely dead in the water
as I said before the only way that a caretaker PM could pull it off is if they can get the backing of all anti-no deal MPs, corbyn still the ultimate bogeyman for the Tories so it was always fantasy
back to reality, IF its going to happen it has to be a harman/clarke type set up
He could easily stay on as leader of the labour party but put his support behind a different person as caretaker PM
I agree with TJ.
Away from reality - I wonder who is developing 'Brexit - the boardgame' ready for a pre-christmas realease? A combination of risk, cluedo and monopoly set in the HoC!
Pure pish. He could easily stay on as leader of the labour party
you think? Remember when the inner circle removed Emily Thornbury from just standing in for Corbyn at the desptach box because she was getting a reputation for being better than him?
If you think for a minute that they'd entertain the idea of any other Lab politician becoming interim PM, you've clearly not been paying attention.
edit: I said this this morning, and it bears repeating, do not forget that at despite the huge significance of the events unfolding, they are ALL still grasping malfeasants scrummaging their way to the keys of no 10. (and if you think Corbyn isn't amongst that lot, then again, you've not been paying attention.)
He has caveated calling a VONC with ‘when we believe we can win it’.
And if he did call a VONC and lose you'd be the first person to attack him about how it was a waste of time which brings a no deal closer. There is clearly no point in calling a VONC if it can't be won. He's provided a bipartisan mechanism by which a no deal can be prevented with no conditions other than an election being called. The only consideration MPs should now have is whether they want to do that. If they refuse, then they will quite rightly have to carry the responsibility of their actions.
General consensus is he doesn't have the numbers though, not enough tories will cross the chamber, and thats not even allowing for some labour MPs abstaining...
He'll have to field a moderate interim govenment leader that's not him or he may as well forget about it.
If they refuse, then they will quite rightly have to carry the responsibility of their actions.
Do you ever think for yourself?
General consensus is he doesn’t have the numbers though, not enough tories will cross the chamber, and thats not even allowing for some labour MPs abstaining…
If tories and Lib Dems don't wish to support this proposal, then they need to say why, beyond not liking Corbyn. They also need to set out their alternative proposals with an explanation of why they are more likely to succeed.
@kimbers -amazing.
@ransos and others, as is demostrated by people on this thread saying if someoneelse were to lead a govt. nat. unity Corbyn would have to resign as leader of the labou party, if Corbyn leads, the govt. nat. unity. becomes equated with 'labour propped up by the rest.' THat is not what it should be, it should be a govt. formed solely to deliver a short term goal (albeit with long term consequencees), therefore none of the currnet party leaders should head it up.
Why would he have to resign as leader?
If tories and Lib Dems don’t wish to support this proposal, then they need to say why, beyond not liking Corbyn. They
Thats just it, the Tories simply dont like Corbyn, he's the ultimate bogeyman for them and their voters
the whole point of a caretaker PM is that they have to be someone that labour & tory remainers are willing to vote for, corbyn to polarising, its why a joint caretaker one makes most sense
Do you ever think for yourself?
Sigh. What's that supposed to mean?
Corbyns other problem is that his plan is to ask for an extension so he can have a GE not whats really needed which is a 2nd ref on the exit terms or remain- which seems to be the only way to resolve the endless brexit dramarama
Thats just it, the Tories simply dont like Corbyn
Which would confirm that preventing no deal is not their first priority. If they are serious then they will set aside personal animosity.
FFS
Corbyns other problem is that his plan is to ask for an extension so he can have a GE not whats really needed which is a 2nd ref on the exit terms or remain-
His plan is to ask for extension for a GE on which Labour will be campaigning for a 2nd ref including the option to remain.
@ransos and others, as is demostrated by people on this thread saying if someoneelse were to lead a govt. nat. unity Corbyn would have to resign as leader of the labou party, if Corbyn leads, the govt. nat. unity. becomes equated with ‘labour propped up by the rest.’ THat is not what it should be, it should be a govt. formed solely to deliver a short term goal (albeit with long term consequencees), therefore none of the currnet party leaders should head it up.
As I've already said, there cannot, by definition, be a government of national unity.
Which would confirm that preventing no deal is not their first priority. If they are serious then they will set aside personal animosity.
yes absolutely they are dicks, but that is reality
so if we want a hard brexit stopped it has to be someone who can get support from all MPs who oppose no deal
His plan is to ask for extension for a GE on which Labour will be campaigning for a 2nd ref including the option to remain.
yes & as peston points out it doesnt make much sense,
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-08-14/why-is-jeremy-corbyn-promising-brexit-delay-for-an-election-rather-than-referendum-asks-robert-peston/
Id also add that its even more unlikely to wash with tory anti-no dealers, because they are still tories at heart and giving corbyn the opportunity to show he can be PM before an election is not what they want
so were back to needing someone with a plan that can get cross party support
so he can have a GE not whats really needed which is a 2nd ref on the exit terms or remain
If there's going to be a 2nd referendum there needs to be a mandate for it, which can only be achieved by a GE. Given the current state of the labour party you might wonder why Corbyn would want an election right now. Unlike the libdems though he's willing to put his money where his mouth is and go to the people.
FFS
What's up? Tired of the mental gymnastics? 🙂
Corbyns offer is the starting point for discussions. If it becomes clear ( as I suspect it will do) that a different candidate for PM for the interim period is the only way of getting this interim government then I expect labour to go for it
The EU side have made it clear that an extension for either a second ref or a GE is possible.
If there’s going to be a 2nd referendum there needs to be a mandate for it, which can only be achieved by a GE
theres no mandate to leave without a deal (Tory manifesto clearly said we'd leave with an orderly deal)
if a caretaker government was elected by MPs 2 give a 2nd ref, thats a mandate
yes absolutely they are dicks, but that is reality
so if we want a hard brexit stopped it has to be someone who can get support from all MPs who oppose no deal
The people in this thread throwing rocks at Corbyn should be instead throwing them at "the dicks" who are refusing to compromise.
As for the second part of your argument, that person does not exist. Corbyn has plenty of supporters in the PLP, whatever binners may say, so it would be pretty unrealistic to expect them to vote for someone else after their elected leader was forced to step aside for no good reason.
Corbyns offer is the starting point for discussions. If it becomes clear ( as I suspect it will do) that a different candidate for PM for the interim period is the only way of getting this interim government then I expect labour to go for it
its already clear a different candidate is needed,
If labour want to stop no deal they need unity candidates from both sides- grieve/starmer, harman/clarke etc
yes & as peston points out it doesnt make much sense,
On that, he called Corbyn's proposal naive. Given how effectively it flushed out the Lib Dems I'd say he got that analysis completely wrong.
so it would be pretty unrealistic to expect them to vote for someone else after their elected leader was forced to step aside for no good reason.
Id say stopping no deal brexit was a pretty good reason
Id say stopping no deal brexit was a pretty good reason
The best way to do that is to back Corbyn.
Given how effectively it flushed out the Lib Dems I’d say he got that analysis completely wrong.
I agree it was a trap for Swinson, but her letter posted up there has thrown it back on him, especially now grieve has come out & said they wont back him
I agree it was a trap for Swinson, but her letter posted up there has thrown it back on him, especially now grieve has come out & said they wont back him
Because they prefer no deal to backing his plan. So much for "bollocks to Brexit".
The best way to do that is to back Corbyn.
Id be quite happy with a corbyn government, I think we need a giant swing to the left to try & fix many of our long term problems, but none of that will happen if no deal brexit goes ahead
but importantly Im not one of the Tory MPs that would have to vote for him
thats the reality
As I’ve already said, there cannot, by definition, be a government of national unity.
It's just a name, call it an emergency government or an interim goverment or what ever if you want.
Because they prefer no deal to backing his plan. So much for “bollocks to Brexit”.
im sorry but thats just silly, if corbyn cant get the votes from tory moderates then his plan is a non-starter and the lib dems were right to reject it
any plan has to be based in reality
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1162117238645764101
if a caretaker government was elected by MPs 2 give a 2nd ref, thats a mandate
Mandates come from the people via an election, not a few hundred MPs.
im sorry but thats just silly, if corbyn cant get the votes from tory moderates then his plan is a non-starter and the lib dems were right to reject it
Yes, backing no deal over his proposal is indeed very silly, pathetic and childish.
This proposal is ready to go now. Any alternative just wastes time we don't have, and for no good reason.
It’s just a name, call it an emergency government or an interim goverment or what ever if you want.
It would be a minority government representing Remain. I have this outrageous idea that the leader of a minority government should be the leader of the largest party within that group.
Corbyn would not have to step aside as leader of the labour party to have a different person as PM. He would still be able to go into the next election as the labour candidate.
Because they prefer no deal to backing his plan. So much for “bollocks to Brexit”.
Corbyn. Doesn't. Have. The. Numbers. It's. Achedemic. Unless. He. Puts. Forward. Someone. Less. Divisive.
This proposal is ready to go now. Any alternative just wastes time we don’t have, and for no good reason.
theres a very good reason for an alternative- they might actually have a chance of succeeding
theres a very good reason for an alternative- they might actually have a chance of succeeding
The best chance of succeeding is to back Corbyn.