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Vote leave and get the hell out of this mess.
Don't let the pompous middle class destroy this country.
let the Tory/RW upper class racists do it
I'll take that as a "no", then.
How about that he said when he sits around a table with other EU members
I always thinks of the bloodbath which has occurred across Europe when we were not a united front.
What do you think he's implying? Is it wholly unreasonable to form the opinion that he's saying, "when Europe is not united it's generally at war, we are voting on our membership of the EU, a vote to leave will necessarily affect the united front of Europe, ergo a vote to leave risks returning to a period of war"?
I've already said it dilutes the Remain side's "maybe/possibly/could/might" predictions if you're only willing to accept absolutes. But yeah, keep deflecting the conversation to small-fry semantics. It's persuading me.
johnhe - MemberI've often heard that the EU is not democratic. Can someone explain in simple, reasonably objective terms why that is the case?
The president of the European Commission has stated that he would ignore democratically elected leaders if they disagree with his vision.
Will that do?
Have we done this yet? The realities of trying to unpick EU legislation from UK laws:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36499878
Basically, it's a horrible mess and would be a huge job - armies of lawyers are going to be very rich. But the killer paragraph is near the end:
"It is difficult to envisage how the job could possibly be done other than through an extensive delegation of regulatory power from Parliament to the government. That could mean a massive empowerment of the executive - in effect, allowing the government to rewrite the legislation governing many aspects of economic and social life with only minimal input from or supervision by Parliament itself,"
In other words, allowing Gove, Johnston et al free rein to rewrite a lot of our laws with little to no democratic oversight.
Scary.
What do you think he's implying? Is it wholly unreasonable to form the opinion that he's saying, "when Europe is not united it's generally at war, we are voting on our membership of the EU, a vote to leave will necessarily affect the united front of Europe, ergo a vote to leave risks returning to a period of war"?
No, I imagine what he is thinking about is that when political unions fall apart then it often leads to war - Jugoslavia being the obvious example. I'm no fan of Cam the Ham, but saying he predicted WW3 is a massive leap of hyperbole.
I've already said it dilutes the Remain side's "maybe/possibly/could/might" predictions if you're only willing to accept absolutes. But yeah, keep deflecting the conversation to small-fry semantics. It's persuading me.
Seems to me that it's you who claimed that Remain predicting WW3 is the same as Leave claiming £350m, the difference being that Remain NEVER predicted WW3, while Leave claim £350m every single minute of the day.
Sorry for deflecting the conversation onto the facts.
bencooper - Member
In other words, allowing Gove, Johnston et al free rein to rewrite a lot of our laws with little to no democratic oversight.
Scary.
Especially regarding their comments over employment protection...and Boris's refusal to address them last night.
In other words, allowing Gove, Johnston et al free rein to rewrite a lot of our laws with little to no democratic oversight.
That's reason enough itself not to vote Brexit!
OK - I am going to stick my neck out here, because I have "some" perhaps even "considerable" sympathy for the "WW3" concern. Unlike my parents' and grandparents' generation I have grown up thinking that armed conflict between European neighbours is unthinkable - albeit that control towers in Berlin and Czech borders unnerved me as a child.
[b]That the very idea seems totally absurd now to all/most of us and certainly to my kid's generation is testament to the success of the EU [/b] (and other factors). But history suggests (1) this is more of an anomaly than the norm and (2) silly, insignificant events end up as catalysts for appalling events that few foresaw/forsee. So yes, it may seem hyperbole to talk about WW3 but history suggests that such an event can never be ruled out. We are certainly foolish to take the status quo for granted.
Next time you ride past a war memorial think about it. Should our respect for the fallen be (1) to stand up for "little England" (sic) or (2) to ensure that the folly and horror that they endured is never repeated.
You decide....
"It is difficult to envisage how the job could possibly be done other than through an extensive delegation of regulatory power from Parliament to the government. That could mean a massive empowerment of the executive - in effect, allowing the government to rewrite the legislation governing many aspects of economic and social life with only minimal input from or supervision by Parliament itself,"
CONTROL!!!
Well leave do project their 350m made up number every single second
It's written in mere high letters on their battlebus as it tours the country
Well leave do project their 350m made up number every single second
And Redwood was defending it on R4 earlier this week 😯
kimbers, as i said earlier the BSers have no shame.
Just click - the new highlighting of lies is just sticking fingers up at the public - you are beneath our contempt, our naked grab for personal political gain > the need to be honest with the hoi polloi
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/
We joined the EEC in 1973, thats 30 years with no war and as Churchill intended a "union" between France and Germany what was required to stop them attacking each other. Add to that NATO and a million plus American and British troopes in Germany means no war.
Anyway Schwable is interesting as later today after his "no free trade without freedom of movement" remark he acknowledged that in the event of Brexit its likley other countries would leave too. Here you have the real issue for the EU. Wealthier countries are going to follow the UK out and this will be especially tricky if they are eurozone members
Well leave do project their 350m made up number every single second
Its not made up, its in the ONS report as the annual gross contribution expressed on a weekly basis. We have no control over the rebate as its not documented in the treaty and can be voted down at anytime. Would I have used £350 ? No, I would have gone with the net of rebate figure and pointed out it will likley rise and that the rebate is out of our control. The figure doesn't need to be audited as the source is obvious and justifiable.
Its going to be quite a few weeks, wrap up of Referendum campaign then almost straight into Chilcot with a bit of football thrown in.
@Junky read Ernie's leftleave webiste and read John Mann's full piece if you can bear to click through on the Sun website
@kimbers the EU commission is the one who decides what laws and how they are drafted. They pass them to the European Parliament for voting on, they can reject them. The EU Parliament cannot draft laws. It is in no way shape of form a parliament as we understand it.
I have to admit..the nearer it gets the more I think out.
He's right- the £350 million isn't made up, it's a real number. It's just that they're lying about what it actually means. Not [i]quite[/i] the same thing but the outcome is exactly the same.
1) Leaving the EU wouldn't give us that £350m back and
2) They know it, we know it, everyone else knows it.
The only defence he can mount is on the technical, irrelevant point, in the hope that this will conceal the central lie.
[i]Next time you ride past a war memorial think about it. Should our respect for the fallen be (1) to stand up for "little England" (sic) or (2) to ensure that the folly and horror that they endured is never repeated.[/i]
Really?....good grief!
Still, at least we have Trident!
Well leave do project their 350m made up number every single second
do you not realise that this is entirely deliberate?
it doesn't matter that the figure is wrong, because the [b]real[/b] figure is equally horrific.
do you think that anyone thinks, £350 million, thats disgusting, oh, what, its only £180 million a week, well, thats OK then?
they have [u]controlled the agenda[/u] for the entire debate, by getting the remainers to constantly keep on talking and arguing about how much money is being given to the EU - the fact that the exact figure is wrong is utterly irrelevant, in fact it works in their favour.
if they had said "the UK sends £180 million a week to the EU" then it would have been yesterdays chip papers - by being wrong, people like you and THM [b]keep on talking about it[/b] and that is what matters.
😆
The EU Parliament cannot draft laws. It is in no way shape of form a parliament as we understand it.
The separation of powers, often imprecisely used interchangeably with the trias politica principle,[1] is a model for the governance of a state (or who controls the state). [b]The model was first developed in ancient Greece.[/b] Under this model, the state is divided into branches, each with separate and independent powers and areas of responsibility so that the powers of one branch are not in conflict with the powers associated with the other branches. The typical division of branches is into a legislature, an executive, and a judiciary. [b]It can be contrasted with the fusion of powers in a parliamentary system where the executive and legislature (and sometimes parts of the judiciary) are unified.[/b]
Ours is worse as The executive - the cabinet/party/PM can bully the legislature - party system, whips etc - to pass laws they really dont want to pass.
Separation of power is a far better system and our version is the least common certainty of modern democracies
Again essentially attacking the EI for being better than our shit system and arrogantly suggesting non seperaton is somehow better - often our parliament is just a rubber stamp for the PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers
Pretty rare considering the number of votes
Here you have the real issue for the EU. Wealthier countries are going to follow the UK out and this will be especially tricky if they are eurozone members
So how is the UK going to produce new trade agreements in two years - thought optimistic to start with - when it's not certain who we might actually need agreements [i]with[/i], given the likelihood that brexit would only be the beginning of European upheaval?
I'm with molgrips here; thanks for voting to put us back into recession for goodness knows how long, boneheads. Who needs long term economic stability anyway?
£180 million a week, well, thats OK then?
but its only £3 quid a week per person
for that I get to skip the visa queue everytime I holiday in Europe and free healthcare with my EHIC card
I spend more on meat filled pastry products per week and they give me bowel cancer!
So how is the UK going to produce new trade agreements in two years - thought optimistic to start with - when it's not certain who we might actually need agreements with, given the likelihood that brexit would only be the beginning of European upheaval?
you don't need trade agreements to trade - Rolls Royce don't have a problem selling plane engines to the USA, Qatar or Australia.
it doesn't matter that the figure is wrong, because the real figure is equally horrific.
Indeed a massive 0.something % of GDP and that's before benefits of membership.
do you think that anyone thinks, £350 million, thats disgusting, oh, what, its only £180 million a week, well, thats OK then?
they have controlled the agenda for the entire debate, by getting the remainers to constantly keep on talking and arguing about how much money is being given to the EU - the fact that the exact figure is wrong is utterly irrelevant, in fact it works in their favour.
You summarise post truth politics very well.
Seems to me that it's you who claimed that Remain predicting WW3 is the same as Leave claiming £350m
I think you're the one making claims. I said they were both "emotive nonsense designed to appeal to the hard-of-thinking." I didn't equate anything to anything else.
for that I get to skip the visa queue everytime I holiday in Europe and free healthcare with my EHIC card
I bet I can get you travel insurance for less than £150.
if they had said "the UK sends £180 million a week to the EU" then it would have been yesterdays chip papers - by being wrong, people like you and THM keep on talking about it and that is what matters.
I don't know about THM, but for myself I have no hope or interest in affecting how people vote - I am more interested in discussing what it says about our society and political system that blatant lies can be trotted out on a continuous basis and nobody gives a s**t.
I lived in the US through the Reagan era and it seemed to me that having a President who was happy to invent "facts" had a corrosive effect on life in general - it became accepted to tell lies. However, the Gipper was just one person, whereas now we have an entire political class who are in a Post Truth phase. It's all getting a bit like a JG ballard novel.
I think you're the one making claims. I said they were both "emotive nonsense designed to appeal to the hard-of-thinking."
Except one exists and the other doesn't, so to say they are "both" anything is a claim all of itself.
2) They know it, we know it, everyone else knows it.
Sadly, no. I hear people daily who
A) believe that we really do send £350M per week to Europe,
B) and that it could / would otherwise be spent on the NHS
A) believe that we really do send £350M per week to Europe
Would it change the conversation if it was £35m a week? Either is incomprehensible big.
I lived in the US through the Reagan era and it seemed to me that having a President who was happy to invent "facts" had a corrosive effect on life in general - it became accepted to tell lies. However, the Gipper was just one person, whereas now we have an entire political class who are in a Post Truth phase. It's all getting a bit like a JG ballard novel.
Politicians lie, get over it.
twas ever thus - even that story about Washington and the cherry tree was made up.
[i] teamhurtmore - Member
That the very idea seems totally absurd now to all/most of us and certainly to my kid's generation is testament to the success of the EU. [/i]
Ooo! I'll just nip across dimensions to the Universe where the EU didn't really turn out like the one we're shackled to. Just to confirm that our version of the EU is the reason, that idea may seem absurd..........
Except one exists and the other doesn't
I'm not sure I follow. What, exactly, exists/doesn't exist? They're all nonsense. I'm not sure there's anything that "exists" in any of the scaremongering from either side.
The claim that we send £350m a day to the EU exists. The claim that Brexit will lead to WW3 does not, except in the imagination of the Leave BS.
rkk01 - Member
[i]2) They know it, we know it, everyone else knows it.[/i]
Sadly, no. I hear people daily whoA) believe that we really do send £350M per week to Europe,
B) and that it could / would otherwise be spent on the NHS
Exactly this.
It would seem that on this site we are reasonably well informed. most of the people I work with have the blinkered belief that what the populist media/papers tell them is fact & if I challenge them get a tirade of stuff about people coming over here stealing our jobs.
Yet when I ask if they would do job X (menial & grim) for X (minimum wage) an hour they recoil in horror.
Guess what jobs most of these immigrants get to do.
ww3 with who ?
we have a couple of submarines and some planes which were delivered 20 years late no aircraft for any carriers but the ones coming are 5 years late too
a few tanks which arent up to much
do we throw shit at them
WW3 my arse
ww3 with who ?
Not us. The Europeans will start killing each other again without us to keep them in check. Like they did the other 2 times. Maybe the Dr can come up with a snappy new name as WW3 seems to upset him.
Cameron spoke of the past 2 world wars and aksed us to think of all the headstones and remind ourselves that the eu had kept the peace. The clear inference was no eu, no peace.
but its only £3 quid a week per person
It's "only" the difference in VAT of 20 or 17.5% Its only the difference betwen current tax rates and those 3% lower (ie 20 vs 17, 40 vs 37 etc) and it's only the amount extra per anum the NHS said it needs by 2020 (think thats the date)
No one is voting Leave because the number is 350 vs 275 vs 175.
.
then why have you and your team constantly used the misleadingly high figure then?
and remind ourselves that the eu had kept the peace. The clear inference was no eu, no peace.
That not an inference as its stated 😯 🙄
what is being discussed is was he saying leave will lead to WW3- that was a plausible inference ,if somewhat overstated, by Brexit IMHO he was certainly alluding to peace being threatened by a leave vote as they had kept the peace and without them well who knows
Politicians lie, get over it.twas ever thus
I don't think it was, to be honest.
I just received a "Vote Leave" pamphlet through my door, with the usual lies that we know well enough, headed "Official Information". Obviously it's not "official" in any ordinary sense of the word. What happens in future when we receive real information about, say, hospital appointments, or school letters, or tax information - shall we just assume that that is a pack of lies as well? Is it now the responsibility of every citizen to check the veracity of the information they receive on every subject? Have we come to this?
no peace
Is WW3 the only way in which peace is lost? Or have the VL liars just invented that?
WW3 was I think coined by Boris who was royally taking the p1ss then repeated by Faisal during Sky interview of Cameron (probably the funniest moment of the campaign)
Junky I guess £350 was chosen as its in the ONS report and it is the official calculation. why are they sticking with it ?I guess as its justifiable and in any case they are not going to climb down (too embarrasing) or repaint the bus.
Maybe the Dr can come up with a snappy new name as WW3 seems to upset him.
Not upset at all - just calling out another lie. Maybe that upsets you?