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When will Bercow rule on whether it is permissible to vote on the same deal again? I sincerely hope he says it can’t be put to the House of Commons.
He won't stop it.
But he'll allow amendments this time.
Meaningful ones.
I wonder when the men in grey suits will decide"enough is enough",and ask LINO round for a little chat?
When they find a safe pair of hands that won't destroy the Tory party…
I think the men in white suits will be taking LINO away before then
whatever way this ends the country is going to be bitterly divided
we need something that can bring us all together- Could we re-instate Hanging Drawing & Quartering for David Cameron, is he less popular than Blair now?
actually not quite yet
Never mind the men in grey suits i'm hanging on for the IRA to get their finger out and deal with the ****ing ERG idiots who inhabit 55 Tufton St, no deaths though...I'd prefer to leave them permanently maimed and needing long term NHS care (by EU/Immigrant nurses) for the rest of their lives
Agreed.
Yeah... no bombings, man. Poetic, fitting justice instead
I'd like to see the Iain Duncan Smiths of this world live out the rest of their days in a damp council flat in a vandalised, piss-stinking, drug-dealer-infested tower block on a sink estate in some shithole, left-behind town.... unemployed, on universal credit, which I'd then sanction so they were dependent on food banks
THAT is what they truly deserve
It's simply mind boggling that MV1 lost with the biggest defeat in parliamentary history
MV2 lost by a huge margin
Yet somehow MV3 is completely OK
Meanwhile the original referendum, which was won off the back of a campaign of lies with a result that's a statistical anomaly in the grand scheme of things, simply must be respected and there's no way we're allowed to re-run that
One rule for them, one rule for the rest of us.
We are truly broken
What happens if there are multiple amendments that are contradictory or overlapping? Does the speaker ensure this doesn't happen? Or what?
What happens if there are multiple amendments that are contradictory or overlapping? Does the speaker ensure this doesn’t happen? Or what?
Yes - that is their job.
Apparently there is going to be a vote today to extend article 50 to allow a people's vote
Yes peopeles vote ammendment selected and an indicative votes ammendment. COuld be interesting later..
Not least on whether labour support the peoples vote ammendment
One amendment selected by the speaker is to prevent the govt presenting its Brexit deal again. If that goes through it'll really show that it's parliament now in control, not the government.
Apparently there is going to be a vote today to extend article 50 to allow a people’s vote
Who's name is it in… and do Labour have a position on it?
It's come the the Independance group.
Well, Labour won't whip (properly) for that then, will they. The nays have it.
Who’s name is it in… and do Labour have a position on it?
A second referendum, proposed or backed by Brexiteer Corbyn? What do you think?
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1106151980618129408
On Brexit, the party leaders are two cheeks of the same arse. Jezza will bluster (unenthusiastically and unconvincingly), but he won't actually do anything to frustrate Brexit, as its what he wants. Always has. And if/when push comes to shove, he'll do everything in his power to facilitate it. Same as he has done since he called for Article 50 to be triggered the day after the referendum
Long game… long game… [FFS]
Todays amendments:
- Amendment H, tabled by Independent Group MP Sarah Wollaston and which seeks an Article 50 extension to stage a second referendum with Remain and Parliament's preferred Brexit option on the ballot paper.
- Amendment I, tabled by Labour's Hilary Benn and which seeks to allow MPs to take control of the Brexit process.
- Amendment E, Labour's amendment which notes that Parliament has "decisively" rejected both Theresa May's deal and no deal and calls for a delay to Brexit "to provide parliamentary time for this House to find a majority for a different approach".
- Amendment J, Labour MP Chris Bryant's amendment to stop a third meaningful vote on Mrs May's deal.
That’s a disgraceful post. The only way I’d like to see the ERG taken out is by republican MPs taking up their seats in a democratic process. Sadly it won’t happen.
But Brexit has fallen. Now it’s just clearing up the mess.
The House speaker certainly knows how to piss the Erg off!!
Another quote from Marina Hyde:
I know rebelling against the leadership is Corbyn’s comfort zone, but it does make you look a historic tit when you are the leadership.
Bercow is playing a blinder. From the Grauniad just now....
The Tory Brexiter Mark Francois used a point of order to complain about Bercow’s failure to call the Lee Rowley amendment ruling out a second referendum. It has been signed by more than 100 MPs.
Bercow will not go into detail about why he did not select it, but he says sometimes MPs are disappointed by his selection of amendments.
The only way I’d like to see the ERG taken out is by republican MPs taking up their seats in a democratic process.
I agree with it being a dodgy post. Republican MPs though are fairly irrelevant to the ERG. Be a threat to the DUP.
I would like to see some of them in handcuffs but think the ERG have successfully left the more dubious practices to the UKIP types so not much hope of that. Some chance with the DUP though and their cash for ash and similar antics.
Is it me, or is there the tiniest glimmer of hope that we might get a second referendum on this massive poo of an idea?
A second referendum, proposed or backed by Brexiteer Corbyn? What do you think?
Its worth noting amongst those opposed to the amendment proposed today is Alastair Campbell.
Seems to be arguing its best to keep today simple about extension and then bring PV in as the solution later.
that we might get a second referendum on this massive poo of an idea?
I think it needs rebranding. Get rid of the "peoples vote" and use "meaningful vote MMXIX".
Might confuse the ERG into supporting it with the random use of Roman numerals.
Ah, the BBC answered my question:
John Bercow also specifies that if amendment (h) - on extending talks to hold another referendum - is passed, then amendments (i) and (e) would fall.
If amendment (i) - on having a debate on next steps on Wednesday - is passed, then the Labour frontbench amendment (e) would fall.
Makes sense, they can adjust as they go.
Seems to be arguing its best to keep today simple about extension and then bring PV in as the solution later.
Dear EU, we would like an extension.
How long for, and for what purpose?
We'll come back to you with that, "later"…
even Peoples Vote have disassociated themselves from the Wollaston amendment due to its timing. I can see why as they're arguing the 2nd Ref is the final solution (I know) rather than just another option at this stage.
I can see either Wollaston pulling it if that's possible or a large number of abstentions as MPs who are minded to vote for it don't yet want to commit. I guess they can also argue that it shouldn't be kicked into touch if a large number abstain.
Corbyn to whip his MPs not to vote for a second referendum....
https://twitter.com/JonathanPlaid/status/1106193131572264961
Labour’s Wes Streeting says there is “a considerable degree of discomfort” amongst Labour MPs who support a second referendum about the position of some on the Labour frontbench.
Whoever could he be referring too? I can't see any of them being too surprised. #redunicorns
There was also a proposed amendment B to rule out a people's vote. That has NOT been selected by the speaker.
Corbyn to whip his MPs not to vote for a second referendum….
As already stated - that is in line with the People's Vote campaign.
I find it bizarre (and monumentally hypocritical) that some MPs are against another referendum because something something democracy something, yet are quite happy to shove ostensibly the same brexit deal in front of Parliament for a third time.
"So you're going to keep having the same vote until you get the result you want?" Where have I heard that before, hmm...
Meanwhile, it's entirely possible that Bercow will tell them to foxtrot oscar:
It must just be coincidence that he's whipped his MPs at every crucial stage in enabling Brexit through the entire process.
By this point in proceedings, if anyone truly believes for a second that Corbyn will actually do anything concrete to support a second ref, or to frustrate the Brexit process in any way, they must be absolutely delusional
Cougar - see:
– Amendment J, Labour MP Chris Bryant’s amendment to stop a third meaningful vote on Mrs May’s deal.
It must just be coincidence that he’s whipped his MPs at every crucial stage in enabling Brexit through the entire process.
By this point in proceedings, if anyone truly believes for a second that Corbyn will actually do anything concrete to support a second ref, or to frustrate the Brexit process in any way, they must be absolutely delusional
Nobody believes that, but today's antics aren't a strong example 🙂
Also, can someone explain something to me?
May comes up with a deal. She goes to the EU who agrees to it, then comes back to parliament who rejects it.
May then comes up with a slightly amended deal. She goes to the EU who agrees to it, then comes back to parliament who rejects it. And round and round we go.
Q1) Why are we going to the EU with deals we haven't approved internally? Shouldn't this be the other way around? Otherwise it's just wasting the EU27's time and makes us look bloody stupid. "Can we have this?" - "sure" - "oh... actually we don't want it after all, sorry."
Q2) Why in all of this is it the EU being blamed for being intransient when in fact it's our lot who's being so?
Q3) Why wasn't this all agreed before triggering A50? That's the biggest clusteryouknowwhat in all of this, we're literally days from the hammer falling and we've still not decided what we want. It's absolutely ****ing ridiculous.
I'm quite enjoying the DUP/ERG Axis of Backwards coming to the realisation that their moment has passed and they're now beating a retreat to Mays Deal as the best they're going to get.
I'm hoping for a 4 year extension to Article 50 just so I can watch Mark Francois head explode 😀
Also, can someone explain something to me?
Q1: It is arguably equally silly the other way round. No point having everyone agree on the Malthouse magic handwave only for Europe to laugh and say sod off. In theory the best way is to have a rough plan of what is acceptable internally and then go and negotiate giving flexibility. The flaw here is the maybot is ignoring the rough plan bit.
Q2:Because that way the people might not be coming after the ERG and co with pitchforks and certain newspapers have an extremely vested interest in that scenario.
Q3:More fun this way.
just so I can watch Mark Francois head explode
He was an army officer you know. He doesnt explode but makes others explode whilst he wins.
Why wasn’t this all agreed before triggering A50?
My guess is A50 was triggered so all this would be out of the way before the upcoming European elections.
Bercow will not go into detail about why he did not select it, but he says sometimes MPs are disappointed by his selection of amendments.
I think it was to do with the wording of the amendment, that it would hamstring future governments.
if anyone truly believes for a second that Corbyn will actually do anything concrete to support a second ref, or to frustrate the Brexit process in any way, they must be absolutely delusional
I think Kier Starmer disagrees with you binners.
Then he's delusional too
Some people are just stating the obvious tough. From the Guardian just now:
The SNP leader at Westminster, Ian Blackford, says we are now two weeks away from Brexit. He says MPs now have the chance to vote for a second referendum. Labour will be found out for what they are, “a fraud”, he says.
You think he's wrong? If you could give me any examples of why? And I'm not talking about gobbing off calling for a general election (again!) but actually doing something. Ian Blackford is bang on. Corbyn is a Brexiteer, a liar and a fraud
Two weeks to go. Definitely do everything to avoid a referendum, while saying you would have supported one under certain unlikely outcomes. Eventually, the ERG will support May to save Brexit… and then a "Tory Brexit" happens… maybe with Labour calling for a late vote on a Referedum once the deal is done… and then Corbyn gets what he wants… UK out of EU, and Tories taking the blame for the early years of reorganisation stress. Nothing has changed.
If you could give me any examples of why?
Try and keep up at the back. Amongst those who think it isnt the time is the Peoples vote campaign and your favourite hero Alistair Campbell.
Blackford also said "A shiver has run along the front bench of the Labour Party looking for a spine to crawl up - and it hasn’t been able to find one,"
Also can someone explain the whole "Speaker selects amendments" thing?
Seems like an awful lot of power to give to one person - effectively deciding what changes the chamber can and cannot consider. Surely if there are enough MPs suggesting an amendment then it should be considered?
MPs chose him. He then has to act independently. The government still mostly controls what gets voted on, apart from meaningless Fridays… he just has to make sure different back bench groups (and opposition parties) get to propose tweaks to what the government put forward.
Hang on a minute? I'm having a Corbynite use Alastair Campbell as justification? **** me! Brexit just got even weirder 😀
Two weeks to go. Definitely do everything to avoid a referendum, while saying you would have supported one under certain unlikely outcomes. Eventually, the ERG will support May to save Brexit… and then a “Tory Brexit” happens… maybe with Labour calling for a late vote on a Referedum once the deal is done… and then Corbyn gets what he wants… UK out of EU, and Tories taking the blame for the early years of reorganisation stress. Nothing has changed.
Its not like he's even making any serious effort to disguise it, is it?
I’m having a Corbynite
I am not a Corbynite. I just find cultists like yourself worse than even the most nutty momentum types.
I find it fascinating how despite having clear evidence that plenty think the amendment was a crap idea you go off on one of your rants. Did Corbyn make fun of you once or something in person?
He's making fun of a hell of a lot of Labour voters and members.
(and ex-Labour voters)
I despise the bloke because he's made the labour party totally unelectable just at the point when its never been needed more. He's a joke! He's certainly no leader. However, he is a Brexiteer
I don't know if you've noticed or not but we've a totally dysfunctional government, that you'd be being kind if you referred to it as a total ****ing shambles, which is in the process of dragging us to economic destitution.
And the labour party? HM Opposition? ... 10 points behind them in the poles.
I can't think of a more damning indictment of someones total uselessness. Can you?
I despise the bloke because he’s made the labour party totally unelectable just at the point when its never been needed more.
I think binners you are underestimating the severity and complexity of the situation. You seem to think he could just stand up and say 'you know what, let's just forget about all this' and everyone would go 'phew yeah ok' and things would be back to normal, with all the normal thinking people running things.
Things have changed fundamentally.
Corbyn is a Brexiteer
If anyone did't believe that 3 years ago they were mislead, if they don't believe it now they're a fool. This is the man who tried to bring about a Ref on leaving the EU years before CMD did, this is the man who imposed a 3 line whip to force Labour MPs into triggering A50, he opposed joining the EEC in the first place and voted against Maastricht and Lisbon he is a left-wing Euro-sceptic through and though.
If anything thinks he's going to come riding into Parliament on horseback at the last moment to try to stop it, they're deluded. He wants Brexit, he'd probably like a 2-3 years transition to a 'no deal' type status, but he's got less control of his MPs than May has of hers.
ok, can someone explain something, preferably in short words so I can understand.
"people's vote" want a second referendum
"people's vote" are saying they are going to vote against the amendment that says "let's do a referendum"
I've added up 1 and 1, and as far as I can tell, that still makes 2, but this is Brexitland, where nothing ever makes any sense ever, so I'm now lost.
I despise the bloke because he’s made the labour party totally unelectable just at the point when its never been needed more. He’s a joke! He’s certainly no leader. However, he is a Brexiteer
I don’t know if you’ve noticed or not but we’ve a totally dysfunctional government, that you’d be being kind if you referred to it as a total ****ing shambles, which is in the process of dragging us to economic destitution.
And the labour party? HM Opposition? … 10 points behind them in the poles.
Yep, I saw a meme on Twitter the other day that summed it up for me. He stands before an open goal, his opposition lays in ruins, a country in complete disarray. Anyone who cares enough about the world outside their living room enough to even half-watch the News has their head in their hands looking for someone, anyone, to offer them a glint of hope, hell, half a ****ing clue at this stage will do. And what does he do? Talks vague shite and offers the UK the other side of the same shit coin May can't sell with more MPs on her side.
The ONLY aspect of opposition he cares about is making cheap shots and a chance to oust them via a General Election he'll lose because despite this shit-show, he's 10 behind in the polls and even his own MPs are leaving him.
Somewhere in a hollow volcano a geezer with a white cat is laughing his head off at the chaos they've made. It's probably Putin.
He wants Brexit
He might, but then I don't think he wants this shit-show, and I also think he wants to compromise more than you think.
I’ve added up 1 and 1, and as far as I can tell, that still makes 2, but this is Brexitland, where nothing ever makes any sense ever, so I’m now lost.
They think that if they introduce the amendment now, it'll fail. They want to introduce it at at time when it's got the best chance of success. Just like footballers who don't just smack the ball goalwards whenever they get near the edge of the box.
He stands before an open goal
I really don't think he does. That's a gross oversimplification.
I’ve added up 1 and 1, and as far as I can tell, that still makes 2
The current question is should we have an extension. If we do then there are several possible things to do in that extension. The EU is going to want something more than meaningful vote 13448 rewording the maybots proposal the nth time.
The PV team would prefer to concentrate on getting a yes to the extension and then push for another referendum as the solution rather than mixing issues up.
Cheers
Although I would have thought getting a referendum kind of implied an extension at this point in time. Obviously I'm far too simple for politics.
Yay! Donny is wading in again:
http://ultrasurfing.com/business-and-tech/trump-hails-unlimited-potential-of-britain-trade-deal/
The bit that I struggle to understand is that lots of these jokers keep saying that they cannot have another referendum because the people have already spoken 3 years ago and they cannot possibly have changed their minds in the intervening period .....despite that fact that one of the fundamental bedrock principles of our democracy is that we ask the people to vote in elections every 4 years, just in case they’ve changed their minds..
and just for whom would it be unlimited?
Although I would have thought getting a referendum kind of implied an extension at this point in time
It would do but there are various other options available as well. Ultimately they want to concentrate on shutting down no-deal exit as an option (at least in a couple of weeks time) and then go from there. Rather than go all out for victory and risk losing the lot.
perchy, it is utter grand mal cobblers
especially as it is now blindingly obviously to all but the most deliberately blind, that the thing what is being bandied about, ain't what was sold to everyone 3 years ago
"What could Corbyn actually do?"
How about this?
That's one very, very powerful letter. Incredible.
The bit that I struggle to understand is that lots of these jokers keep saying that they cannot have another referendum because the people have already spoken 3 years ago
Meanwhile, with no trace of irony, May's deal is heading back to the Commons for a third vote after being monumentally drubbed twice already.
The bit that I struggle to understand is that lots of these jokers
That bits easy to understand so long as you can accept they are hypocritical arseholes. They really arent confident of winning second time round, especially since there will be lots of scrutiny of advertising campaigns and where the money is coming from, so want to avoid the risk. It would be okay if they admitted to it but it is a tad vomit inducing when they talk about democracy being at risk because of it.
The bit that I struggle to understand is that lots of these jokers keep saying that they cannot have another referendum because the people have already spoken 3 years ago and they cannot possibly have changed their minds in the intervening period …..despite that fact that one of the fundamental bedrock principles of our democracy is that we ask the people to vote in elections every 4 years, just in case they’ve changed their minds..
There's not much to understand, they won a vote based on unachievable promises via an illegally funded campaign paid for by people who want to profit from our demise. Their only real objection is that they may lose a 2nd go now they can't lie as much, so they're all beating the same "will of the people" drum. Neither May or Corbyn will call them on it.
Hang on a minute? I’m having a Corbynite use Alastair Campbell as justification? **** me! Brexit just got even weirder 😀
You're usually quick to tell us how Campbell would handle things better. Yet you go quite quiet when it's pointed out that he agrees with Corbyn. You are so consumed by hatred that you've lost all objectivity.
Cougar, that's a great link.
Could we sum it up by saying "stop being an arse and try to make europe better for all of us".
But I think he'll continue to be an arse.
The bit that I struggle to understand is that lots of these jokers keep saying that they cannot have another referendum because the people have already spoken 3 years ago
It's simple really. If leavers genuinely believed that they'd win another referendum they'd be all over it like a tramp on chips demanding one. The fact that they aren't speaks volumes. Which kinda tells you all you need to know about the validity of the "will of the people" rhetoric.
Good to see the maybot had a cabinet meeting where a)she ranted against remainers who didnt dance to her tune (seems quiet on the ERG though) and b)complained about the frequency of leaks.
These and a couple of other things were quickly leaked.
Cougar, that’s a great link.
Isn't it, though.
"Viewed from here, Brexit has always appeared to be a right-wing project with a single aim – to harm working people and communities and place even more power in the hands of right wing elites.
Should Brexit go ahead, workers’ rights, environmental protections and public services would be at the mercy of a Conservative government. Given her track record, it would seem foolish to us for any Labour MP to trust the words of a Tory Prime Minister."
Just... wow.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed or not but we’ve a totally dysfunctional government
That's in large part thanks to the labour party strategy of patient and consistent opposition to the tories incompetence. Even despite the attempts of some labour MPs to derail this strategy with fantasies about 2nd votes or unilateral revocation, they've held firm to the policy they created at the party conference, and in terms of exposing the fraud of May's and the ERG's positions and (so far) preventing a hard brexit, it has been spectacularly successful.
The proof is in the pudding. We have a Prime Minister who has lost all authority, a government on the brink of collapse, no-deal rendered pretty much impossible, and the chances of an extremely soft brexit vastly improved. Given where we were a year ago when a hard brexit looked a cast-iron certainty I'd say the labour party have played a blinder.
Of course you lot won't agree with that, because you want the labour party to stop brexit. The problem with that is that is and never was their policy.