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not to go too OT but how do we know what the policy of the party is?
Agreed it's probably a topic for a different thread, but parties have manifestos. If the members don't like it they should defect to a party with a more agreeable manifesto or go indie.
Obviously it's not that simple as they know they are (reletivley) safe if they tow the line and they can continue to cream in the wage and associated benefits.
"On an entirely separate note I have to say it’s highly entertaining. I’m really looking forward to the fly-on-the-wall retrospective documentaries in a year or two."
During one of those 'Oooorrrdeeeerraaaa CLEEEEARRR THE LOBBEEEEEEEE DIVISIONS!!!!!' my year 7 daughter came in and said 'daddy, will they make us study this for GCSE?'
One of her own whips voted against her?
Our comedy government hasn’t been much of a laughing matter of late, but that’s bloody hilarious!!! 😂
She should be in no doubt now how much is left of her authority?
During one of those ‘Oooorrrdeeeerraaaa CLEEEEARRR THE LOBBEEEEEEEE DIVISIONS!!!!!’ my year 7 daughter came in and said ‘daddy, will they make us study this for GCSE?’
Well I'm trying to remember something so massive in UK politics, certainly nothing in my lifetime which didn't result in at least a fall in government or leader in the end. (and I lived in Oz where we changed PM like Chelsea so managers)
my year 7 daughter came in and said ‘daddy, will they make us study this for GCSE?’
Last night my 11 year old asked me why they can't just agree to do what's best for everyone. As with climate change, we really have reached the point where the kids could do a better job than the adults.
It's certainly a good case study for how not to do things hahaha!
One of her own whips voted against her?
and as I tried to find one that wasn't going to be banned...
Simon Clarke MP (Tory Brexiteer) "The choice now is between a bad deal and no Brexit"
He's right - but I can't see them having the bottle to make that decision.
Well I’m trying to remember something so massive in UK politics
Is it just me or will Nicolas Maduro be feeling a little reassured that he's not on his own?
And at the same time , Boris shoots himself once again .
Second barrel into the other foot. That's going to smart a bit.
I genuinely don’t understand why she doesn’t just resign. She could say “I have done my best, I cannot get an agreement, it’s someone else’s turn to try” Nobody would think any the worse of her because of it. (Probably because her reputation is rock bottom as it is.)
Nobody would think any the worse of her because of it. (Probably because her reputation is rock bottom as it is.)
This is her moment, something like a cross between dirty dancing and Greece
Maybe she could finish by Swan diving onto the black scepter as a grand finale.
It would be more honourable than buggering off to retire in a cheateu in France. That would be too ironic.
Assuming we don't have a no deal brexit and end up living in a Mad Max like post apocalyptic dystopia - then I think future generations of History students will be cursing Brexit in the same way as current students are made to suffer the Corn Laws.
I genuinely don’t understand why she doesn’t just resign.
There's no way she'll resign. She's already going down as the worst prime minister in history, she's not going to want to also be labelled as the worst PM who jumped ship at the height of the crisis that she created. Besides, there's still a tiny chance she'll turn it round. She's got a lot (if not most) of the public behind her. If by some miracle she manages to face down her MPs and win, she'll be massively popular. If that happens the spineless self-serving *****s in her party will line up behind her as if nothing happened.
She’s got a lot (if not most) of the public behind her.
You are funny.
She’s got a lot (if not most) of the public behind her.
She certainly has, this is including my wife who keeps saying “If it was a bloke they wouldn’t be so hard on him!” Then I point out she was Home Secretary whilst my wife was working for the CPS “Well she was only doing what Cameron wanted “
Ffs 🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️
Gove for pm next I reckon
One of her own whips voted against her?
He was paired with Andrew Gwynne, who had a family emergency.
Strangely, this may well do her a favour, she may be able to peel off sufficient recalcitrant Tories and the DUP, who now know how hard their farmers will be hit, to get her deal over the line.
What's happened to the shadow chancellor? Last week he was on everything talking up Labour MPs voting for a referendum this week… now he's gone quiet, and the programmes are full of other Labour front benchers making it clear that would be the worst thing ever. Will he be back next week?
She’s got a lot (if not most) of the public behind her.
why do you keep saying this?, polling consistently shows that her deal is the least preferred option
Strangely, this may well do her a favour, she may be able to peel off sufficient recalcitrant Tories and the DUP, who now know how hard their farmers will be hit, to get her deal over the line.
possibly, Youd think that the brexiteers would realise that they are making no brexit a real possibility...... but Steve Baker & Andrea Jenkyns on Peston & Anne Marie Morris on Newsnight showed no sign of becoming any less fervently opposed to mays deal- both had an air of manic zealotry
He was paired with Andrew Gwynne, who had a family emergency.
So he didn't vote? Sounds like a non-story.
Only one gov resignation that I've seen, over today's vote. Those abstaining still in their posts.
Brexit is now a singularity. The first one we can study on our own planet.
No-one, no-one knows what is just past the event horizon but whatever is there will be studied for decades to come.
If I had to predict what is just beyond our scientific reach? Just over that horizon?
May, eternal,grey, stuck in the purgatory of an infinite time loop, never to escape back into Einsteinist space and time. Only known to even exist by the displacement of void she takes up.
why do you keep saying this?, polling consistently shows that her deal is the least preferred option
This is the part I don't get ?? I constantly hear leave voters saying her deal is s&&t but when I ask them what they want they just say "leave". May's deal had us leaving the EU, removal of freedom of movement everything they said they wanted !!! Sure we have to pay for the commitments we already signed up for and a agreement that we wouldn't send NI back in control of the bombers and gunmen, all be it with a tiny risk for some unfathomable reason the EU might make it difficult to end said agreement. But still May's deal is rubbish and she's the worst PM ever. I know some remainers feel that any thing less than a revocation of A50 is failure, but even though a majority of MPs won't agree a deal (because it's the wrong deal, but not say what the right achievable one is) neither will a majority come flat out and say Brexit should be scrapped for 17.4mil reasons.
Personally I think history will be a bit kinder to May, realising that she took on a job beyond her talents, but also that it's was beyond any of our current crop of politicians abilities.
Bare in mind her games not over yet, whatever the votes today we're still set to leave on March 29th without a deal (depend on an extension we might not get), Mv3 or 4 could still see her deal get through.
May's own biographer said that people always underestimated two aspects of her personality.
Her ambition and her selfishness.
When you factor in both of those traits everything about her methods and judgment fits into place. Including why, even now, she will just carry on when even on an animal human level most normal people would have walked. Forever to be the definition personified of a zombie PM.
She will deserve her place in history but it will not be a positive one.
There was a question on Brett it the Higher or National 5 paper last year, so yeah; the misery is going to impact childrens(and teachers) lives for years to come.
What, the wild yeast favoured by the Europeans that gives a funky farmyard character to beer?
On 21st Jan, May suggested that a 2nd ref would "Threaten social Cohesion" and often suggested that asking people until they give the "right" answer is undemocratic. So we don't get another say, but her plan gets a second, third and perhaps even a fourth Vote....
Cognative dissonance in action...
No, but asking a third or fourth time is entirely justifiable because the question is 'now we know that if we don't vote for this deal, then we get no deal which would be disastrous, do you want this deal now?'
Whereas a second referendum would only be on the basis of 'now we know that Brexit in whatever form is substantially worse than remaining in the EU, are you sure you still want to leave?'
Can't you see it's ENTIRELY different.
We need a proper head of state, someone with their own democratic mandate who can force the PMs hand into finding some kind of cross party consensus for a way forward. Her Royal "I'm only in it for the house of Windsor" Highness light touch really doesn't cut the mustard at Times likes this.
Can we have more 'meaningful votes'? Speaker says no?
This is the part I don’t get ?? I constantly hear leave voters saying her deal is s&&t but when I ask them what they want they just say “leave”.
The inherent contradictions of a binary referendum where one answer leads to a multitude of outcomes.
Cameron's infamous leaflet did warn that the end point would depend on negotiations, but the cult of Brexit makes its own truth.
https://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/pairing/
He was paired with Andrew Gwynne, who had a family emergency.
Paired means he didn't vote, if he voted against then he is in the shit.
sort of - you pair with someone who is going to vote the other way so you cancel each other out. It's different from a sole abstention.
So if he paired with Gwynne with a different voting intention, then he has in effect voted.
If that gets him off the hook, it's a technicality.
The pairing system is often used and very rarely abused, it's a very honourable tradition. Unless obviously you're Brandon Lewis.
(I like the traditions but this is a dumb voting system in the 21st century really)
Mark Francois 😡 dear god what a utter shit, “I was an army officer, I don’t mind pressure” he is a tub of lard who was in the T.A.
With politicians like him why are we surprised to be in this mess.
Geoffery Cox is being warmed over to change his legal advice ahead of a third MV
So what are Lord Haw Haw and his Rabid Right chums saying about this?
So these tax laws that are due to come in just after 29th March... just how much of an impact will they have on people with ££££s squirreled away who would rather not have been impacted by them (eg. most of the senior ERG)
Mark Francois 😡 dear god what a utter shit,
It's a hard fought battle, but he is ahead in my "Who's the biggest * out of all the *s" race currently.
Mark Francois is an utter utter **** of the highest order. Its a unifying character trait shared by all his ERG colleagues
But surely Gavin 'send an aircraft carrier to China' Williamson is outdoing even him with his rufty-tufty fake military credentials.
Apparently he's now referred to by everyone in Westminster as Private Pike
No, but asking a third or fourth time is entirely justifiable because the question is ‘now we know that if we don’t vote for this deal, then we get no deal which would be disastrous, do you want this deal now?’
That's not the case though - the question is - "do you want to back this crap deal which is the one I've stuck to for my own motives of pride and selfishness while ignoring all opportunities to find a better way forward, or do you want a no-deal disaster. Or do you perhaps want me to tear up my stupid red lines and negotiate a reasonable deal?"
he is a tub of lard who was in the T.A.
I like the way the interview finishes then. Wonder if she was out of time or just realised she would end up saying something unprofessional
If Francois was an officer in the T.A. like Gareth in the Office, them I hate him even more. Fat ****
All it would've taken was one friendly fire incident
If that gets him off the hook, it’s a technicality.
Pairing arrangements do not normally stand in a 3 line whip, however I believe in the event of an emergency, a member of another party can approach the other side's Whips Office to arrange an emergency pair, who will be a member of the Whips Office (so there is no argument) rather than their usual pair.
Erskine suggests that MV3 will not happen, the speaker will disallow the motion as it is a repeat of the previous two.
Out of ideas and nearly out of time, it's either revoke or at least 2 months delay though the EU27 may enforce a longer timescale.
So we don’t get another say, but her plan gets a second, third and perhaps even a fourth Vote….
Can we have more ‘meaningful votes’? Speaker says no?
I'm warming more and more to this speaker.
And he has a forren name.
This Mark Francois ... ??
@mefty which would mean one of the whips not walking through the lobby ie one vote less in either side. Reports were he voted for the motion - which would add one against the government and none for.
Anyway this could all be the fine kine between last to resign first to lose their seats 🙂
On a side note the brexit tweet billboards have made it to Manchester, the one you can see from the tram explains how brexit will kill manufacturing in the UK but it will be worth it.
Erskine {May} suggests that MV3 will not happen, the speaker will disallow the motion as it is a repeat of the previous two.
Sir David Natzler gave evidence on this point to a Select Committee which suggested that governments can repeat motions
“If it plainly was the will of the House, there are ways that could happen,” said Sir David, resplendent in his Clerk’s uniform of white bow tie.
“I don’t think the procedures of the House are designed to obstruct the necessary business of government on such a crucial thing,” he added.
The vote for extending Article 50 is going to be a free vote, so you'd think that will just be a formality.
https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1106115929539334144
Having said that, Andrea Leadsom has just stated that No Deal is still firmly on the table, so it seems she's just going to pretend yesterday never happened and it was all just a bad dream.
May looked and sounded like the walking dead yesterday. I almost felt sorry for her. Almost. Then I remembered what a truly vile, toxic self-serving creature she is and that soon evaporated
Reports were he voted for the motion
The reports were wrong.
So what comedy of errors awaits us today?
And where does it lead?
The brexiteers seem to be doubling down on their rhetoric, so even if Bercow allows for MV3 ,what chances of it passing?
Tho I hear Geoffrey Cox is trying to be the centre of attention again with a new effort to salve their preposterous egos & allow them to back down.
This Tory Bunfight is both tragic & amusing
So Cox has to say he was wrong? I am sure he is going to love that.
Dup meeting with May, more cash needed?
Because it never gets old
“If it plainly was the will of the House, there are ways that could happen,” said Sir David, resplendent in his Clerk’s uniform of white bow tie.
The house has voted down the bill with some of the biggest defeats a government has taken. That is a sign the house does not want to waste time on mv3. Nothing has changed. There was a vote, people do not simply change their minds.
It sounds like the Brexiteers are getting a bit jumpy that we're heading for a long extension to Article 50, at the very least. Nigel Evens has just been on Radio 4 saying that they're 'losing Brexit'
If the ERG ends up scuppering Brexit through their intransigence in not voting for Mays deal as it wasn't Brexity enough for them, Its quite possible I may never ever stop laughing at them
"you know what? I've re read the amended withdrawal agreement and bugger me it TOTALLY says we can exit the backstop err somewhere towards the end. I'm totes sorry on Tuesday I was just busy tweeting the word 'bollocks' to Jon snow I must've missed it. It defo says that about the backstop trust me on this I'm a silk and have a booming voice"
I see the Architect of this debacle, he who should be know as CallMeDave, has finally admitted a No Deal would be an unmitigated disaster for Britain.
Well well, CMD, you’d better rescind that referendum you designed and sort this utter chaos out eh..
****er.
So Cox has to say he was wrong? I am sure he is going to love that.
He won't say he's wrong. But a much more detailed explanation of how we'd exit the backstop if the EU were to act in bad face woul be welcome. If MP's see how that could happen it might be enough to swing them over.
Bare in mind if the Eu doesn't grant an extension we leave on the 29th without a deal. Parliment have voted to say that wont happen so it'll be revoke or May's deal. What do you reckon they'll choose ?
I asked before with no joy.
With Mays deal can I still get my chocs tariff free from Belgium?
For a few years, yes. After that… well, that's all for future discussion… this is just the start.
I think I just read she’s tabled her deal for the third time
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/13/theresa-may-deal-europe-eu-mps
Marina Hyde yesterday still at the top of her game. Too much to quote but "beacon of democracy turns out to have been a bin fire" sticks in my mind. Bollocks I will qoute:
Quote of the debate – arguably quote of the entire Brexit – went to a Conservative backbencher by the name of Steve Double. “This is a turd of a deal,” he intoned to the House of Commons, “which has now been taken away and polished, and is now a polished turd. But it might be the best turd that we’ve got.”
For many, the now-reflexive action when they hear this kind of stuff is to inquire “why didn’t u put that on the side of ur bus m8???”. And yet, was Steve’s interjection in the actual chamber the moment that well-worn joke format ascended to its purest – which is to say, its most grotesque – form? Putting turd all over the side of a bus, having half the country vote for it, and then driving this dirty-protest-mobile past every single warning-sign of the past two and a half years has brought us to this particular precipice.
Whilst May's 'place in history' is of no interest to me, nor of any relevance now.....
Anyone who touches, or is touched by, the toxic nonsense that is Brexit is on a hiding to nothing if they feel like they have to act in the best interests of the country as a whole.
This can easily be visualised using a Venn diagram (that people commonly think of as 'one of those drawings with a square containing two partially overlapping circles').
What most people miss is that the circles don't have to overlap if they are mutually exclusive.
Put 'Brexit of any kind' in one circle and 'things that are good for the country' in the other and there is no overlap. Never has been, isn't, and never will be.
This is the core, inescapable issue - and it cannot be wished away.
John Crace who coined Maybot has a new name for her....
LINO
Leader In Name Only
🙂
In all this "how do we get out of the backstop?" none of them seem to be considering what happens after that. If the backstop is needed it means there's no other solution. (There won't be another solution because there HAS to be a border somewhere, even if it's just to stop free movement of people). So exiting the backstop will mean a hard border, then probably back to the Troubles, and/or NI leaving the UK.
LINO
Leader In Name Only
and the same applies to Corbyn
I think I just read she’s tabled her deal for the third time
Reading that has just taken the last vestiges of hope from me that we have any chance of getting out of this in a sensible manner. Her agenda is clearly my deal or screw the lot of you, whether this is plain malicious or shes actually broken mentally I don't know, either way shes taking the rest of us down with her.
She does seem to be bloody-minded to the point of being mentally deranged. Its the mentality of the kamikaze pilot.
I AM going to do this, even if I and everyone else has to die in the process.
John Crace's parliamentary sketches have been one of the few good things to come out of this debacle. Worth following on Twitter too. He's hilarious. As is Marina Hyde, who is an utter genius!
Yeah, just seen on the BBC webby she is tabling the motion again.
Not sure what to say, beyond words really.
Apparently EU are to offer us a four year extension of we vote to go and ask for one.
That'll be a laugh!
It'd also give me enough time to prepare to leave the country whilst I can.
Bare in mind if the Eu doesn’t grant an extension we leave on the 29th without a deal. Parliment have voted to say that wont happen so it’ll be revoke or May’s deal
Even if May's deal is approved, they are still going to need an extension to implement. So unless an extension is put in place or A50 is revoked, it's no deal on the 29th, regardless of 'meaningful' votes to take A50 off the table.
There won’t be another solution because there HAS to be a border somewhere, even if it’s just to stop free movement of people
Free movement will continue because of the Common Travel Area.
Brilliant little analogy from James O Brian:
a) We were being sold a toaster, some people agreed they wanted a toaster, yet some were already happy with the grill.
b) We then discovered the toaster was merely an empty box, which had a nice picture of a toaster but no toaster
c) We now need to decide if we want to continue to have the empty box and stare at the picture with the eternal hope that a toaster appears inside, or give back the box and say no thanks.
😀
Free movement will continue because of the Common Travel Area.
Yes & government said even in No Deal that NI/Irisih citiznes could still move freely between NI & Ireland,
Javid said that EU citizens have to show ID card or passports when they enter the UK
But with no border checks in NI how will they do that ?
It's almost like they've not thought it through and are just making stuff on the spot and without any consultation whatsoever
Free movement will continue because of the Common Travel Area.
For who?
People living in NI can arrange to keep FoM across 30 countries, including CTA. Same for people living south of the border. The thing is, people outside the CTA, but in Single Market, will have free movement into most of Ireland, but not into NI, even though people in NI will have free movement into their countries. Is that correct? The consequences of keeping the GFA, after NI leaves the Single Market, but with a new special unique relationship with it, are mind bendingly messy. Anyway, who is to be checked, and where?
When will Bercow rule on whether it is permissible to vote on the same deal again? I sincerely hope he says it can't be put to the House of Commons.