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if we can’t get an extension and can’t agree on any deal then the only option left is to revoke A50 which we can do unilaterally. That is what will happen.
Well I'll keep everything crossed for that.
the only option left is to revoke A50 which we can do unilaterally. That is what will happen.
But will it? It would need the opportunity for Parliament to express an opinion. Will May allow a vote on it? She showed yesterday that she is happy to subvert democracy taking advantage of the lack of proper procedures in our entirely dysfunctional parliament to further her own ends, save her own job, preserve her own party's power, regardless of the impact on the country.
I've got everything crossed for that, too, but I'm still worried that the other way to go with no agreement is a no-deal Brexit...
Does make you wonder what backhander deals and promises have been made to the illuminati to make this happen
“Let’s get through the week and see what turns up”.
Get through the week? Isn't the Maybot now making the 'how long can I last?' calculation on a minute-by-minute basis?
the only option left is to revoke A50 which we can do unilaterally. That is what will happen.
I don't share your confidence. Revoking A50 goes against the referendum result, the sad fact is that with no agreed deal, the only option which delivers on the referendum is leaving with no deal. That, alas, is what the people voted for and is probably the more likely option.
She had a disastrous record as home secretary but somehow never got fired from that job too.
She is helped by the fact that every other MP is just as incompetent & disliked
Revoking article 50 or no deal?
We're surely edging ever closer to the French approach to 'opening a dialogue' with those in government..
Nothing yet from the Labour party today then? Surely gearing up to take advantage of the chaos in the Tory ranks?
No?
Mind you.... It was a busy day yesterday, I suppose. Maybe a day or two on the allotment to recharge the old batteries then have have a look how everything's panned out some time next week?
I'm hoping that the (collective) opposition are waiting for the empty-handed return from Europe to weaken the government's position further, then that surely must be the time to pounce. I mean, it can't get any more contradictory, chaotic and subversive than this... can it????
Nothing yet from the Labour party today then?
What would you like them to do?
OK binners this time your attack on Corbyn is entirely on-point and timely 🙂 What a ****ing waste of space he is.
What would you like them to do?
Something. Anything.
Be prepared:
YELLOW VESTS
Tesco: £2.50
I'd expect a vote of no confidence about now. The ERGers have to put up or shut up. They either support her or they don't. I reckon a handful of them don't, and that's all it would take.
Something. Anything.
Seriously though, what should they do? If they call a no confidence vote they'll lose. Anna Soubry, that bastion of opposition, was on newsnight last saying they should do just that. She then said she'd vote with the govt!
I don’t share your confidence. Revoking A50 goes against the referendum result, the sad fact is that with no agreed deal, the only option which delivers on the referendum is leaving with no deal. That, alas, is what the people voted for and is probably the more likely option.
This. Crashing out is the default unless a) Parliament is given an opportunity to vote on an alternative, and b) has a majority to do something else. What are the odds of that looking like?
It could be that May is making a show of exhausting all the options before doing something dramatic.
a) Revoke A50 (unlikely)
b) Revoke with a promise to resubmit i.e. postpone
c) Revoke THEN another ref
d) 2ref now
This is no machiavellian plan. She is just thrashing around getting through the day (yes this is probably a major alteration to the previous policy of getting through the week).
I'm honestly starting to think that we'll end up crashing out with no deal too, just to keep to "the will of the people". It's absolutely ludicrous, nobody would've voted for that!!
I know you corbynistas can't stand the mention of the names of any previous none-useless labour leaders (who won elections and stuff) but can you imagine the field day that Alastair Campbell's press office would be having with this shambles?
They'd be making ****ing mincemeat of them! Twisting the knife at every opportunity and exploiting every cabinet split and nonsensical Tory statement, and probably be a good 20 points clear of them in the polls.
Any word from Jezza yet? No? Probably at a memorial service in Cuba for the victims of industrial footwear accidents. Or starting a deselection process in Stoke
Any word from Jezza yet? No? Probably at a memorial service in Cuba for the victims of industrial footwear accidents
Go on - post a Life Of Brian picture - you know you want to!
I don't really need to, do I? Given the events of the last week, and the total failure of the Labour party to capitalise on it, the Peoples Front of Judea would be making a considerably better job. A picture of them would flatter the labour party, quite frankly
the total failure of the Labour party to capitalise on it
By doing what, oh wise one?
Anything remotely resembling a credible policy on the issue would be a good starting point
Actually... turning up would be a start. I gather that the inner sanctum are all in the bunker with some organic, fairtrade, ethically-sourced pop corn watching it unfold on telly.
Or tweeting some Jezza soundbite meme's to the Canary?
Handy visual guide:
[img] 
:large[/img]
I’m really, really no Corbynist but I think that Labours supposed strength in this situation is overstated. Yes, this government is a ****ing shambles, but Labour are not exactly riding high in the opinion polls. Whilst Corybn is no Svengali, he’s not actually responsible for Labour being in this position. There were several years of shite Labour leadership before he took the reigns.
For Labour to make a move, the Tory’s need to not just be on the ropes, they need to be flat on the canvas. If things carry on, that should happen early in the New Year.
Actually… turning up would be a start.
To take up the Life of Brian theme, it's all very well shouting 'Splitters!' at Corbyn et al from the other side of the stadium, but really what should they do? They have a policy already. It may be fantastical, and they may still be on the fence, but it's the only thing they can do. Given we all know the labour party is just as split as the tories on this subject they've done a remarkable job at keeping a lid on it, and the supposedly non-existent policy they have is what has enabled that.
You want them to call a no-confidence vote? They'll lose. Given that supposed anti-brexit heroes like Soubry are saying they'll support May are you really suggesting Corbyn should pin all the hopes of the labour party on the DUP and JRM supporting them?
Want them to call for a stop to brexit? They'll be painted as anti-democratic enemies of the people, and will both reunite the tories and hand the initiative back to them, the result being the very opposite of no brexit.
What else? It's a serious question cos I have no idea. This apparently impossible conundrum is just as complex for labour as it is the tories, and so far labour seem to be making a better fist of it than their opponents.
^^ dazh has hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately there is still very little Labour can do about things, and the ERG can't even get 48 letters together. There's no way any of them will no-confidence their own party, even in the current state of affairs.
It's all well and good for the Greens/SNP/LibDems to shout about no-confidence, because they aren't actually interested in collapsing the government. If they can get Labour to attempt & fail at a no-confidence motion then Labour are backed into following their conference decision of backing a second referendum, which inevitably leads to cries of SABOTEUR from the likes of the Mail. Also bear in mind that we've pretty much passed the last point in time when a referendum could realistically be held and acted on before we exit the EU...
This apparently impossible conundrum is just as complex for labour as it is the tories, and so far labour seem to be making a better fist of it than their opponents.
The only real advantage Labour have is that they didn't cause this mess in the first place and are not being marched with a gun to their neck by the extremist elements of their own party to implement it. Which just shows what a bad idea the whole thing is!
This is about nationalism versus internationalism on a political level, not 'left' versus 'right'. Labour has plenty of petty nationalists in its supporters, they are just jealous and distrustful of different 'other people' to the Tory version....
Sounds like something might be cooking this afternoon.. 3 line whip in place, no going home untill all gov buness concluded...
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1072452763131543552
Something. Anything
Why? the Tories are managing to bollox it up to high standard all by themaelves, if Labour wade in now with confidence votes or calls for elections they just look like opportunists. By keeping their mouths mostly shut, and for that I credit Corbyn in mostly keeping them all at least on message, they look a damned sight more competent than the Tories.
so far labour seem to be making a better fist of it than their opponents.
By offering different unicorns?
The problem for Labour is that Tories + DUP have a majority, so for them to win a no confidence vote a few Tories or DUP would have to vote to put themselves out of power. Hard to see that happening isn't it?
Another contempt vote? could they force the cancellation of the meaningfull to be reversed?
Speaker grants emergency debate on the 'meaningful vote' deferral
MPs are to hold an emergency debate on the Government's management of the meaningful vote debate. The debate was originally intended to conclude with a vote on Tuesday 11 December.Following the decision by the Government to defer the 'meaningful vote' on the EU Withdrawal Agreement, the Leader of the Opposition, Jeremy Corbyn applied for an emergency debate on the Government's handling of the vote.
Today's debate is expected to start at around 2pm
Anything remotely resembling a credible policy on the issue would be a good starting point
Such as? Once again, you're all mouth and no trousers.
There were several years of shite Labour leadership before he took the reigns.
I dont think you are going to get anywhere with someone who still fantasises about Campbell. Skipping over the minor detail that him and others helped create the situation for the entire mess by turning politics into a kiss the arse of the press barons game and creating extremely dodgy dossiers to support a pointless war.
It is depressing though the damage done to both the Labour and Conservative parties by the "centrists" who dont seem to appreciate the advantage of having a political system which has more than one viewpoint. Problem is though the damage done to the parties means we have a bunch of second raters and careerists as opposed to people who joined their parties out of conviction. As such they will sway in the wind.
the Tory’s need to not just be on the ropes, they need to be flat on the canvas
Yup. Since if they throw the punch and miss then that helps the Maybot no end. Same as the ERG muppets who whilst they didnt quote throw a punch did jump into the ring and are now looking damaged. Admittedly in the latter case they are even more restricted since if they do go all in and lose then they are beaten for a year.
By offering different unicorns?
Well, at the risk of repeating myself, what else should they do? Like, actual actions rather than just saying 'do something' or 'have a policy'. I'm sure the 6th formers at labour HQ would appreciate the help and advice of the STW hive-mind.
Dissonance, so you want our country to become even more polarized? You want more rabidly left and right wing deranged parrots squawking at each other, with one side calling the other communists or racists? WHOOOOOO!
What we need is less adversarial politics and more centerist co-operation.
Well, at the risk of repeating myself, what else should they do?
How about getting behind a 2nd referendum, and I mean actually supporting it and not just weasly mentioning is as a posisble last option if the suns align and the tortoise turns into an eagle.#
Their membership want it, most of the parlimentary party want it, even momentum wants it, but the leadership is ignoring them.
I don’t share your confidence. Revoking A50 goes against the referendum result, the sad fact is that with no agreed deal, the only option which delivers on the referendum is leaving with no deal.
When the only option to deliver on the referendum would be catastrophic and the majority of MPs would be against it of course there is another option. As I said, if they vote as a majority in parliament to revoke A50 (due to no other options) they can do that.
My money is on revoking and I will let you know how much I made in March...
Sounds like something might be cooking this afternoon.. 3 line whip in place, no going home untill all gov buness concluded…
... With Thatcher May away in Europe, what could possibly be brewing?...
That 3-line whip is in place all week. Well, except Friday. You can't expect them not to head off early for the weekend. It's not like we're in the middle of a constitutional crisis, is it?
It is however possible that the plan is to roll Arlene Foster a nice big spliff and see if that softens her stance. 🙂
Dissonance, so you want our country to become even more polarized?
No but I am not sure of the relevance to what I said?
A cursory glance at history or indeed current politics will show that it is quite easy to have multiple parties across the political spectrum working and that they can act as a balance. It tends to get extreme and unpleasant when people dont have a choice and decide to go and find one. Which brings us nicely onto:
What we need is less adversarial politics and more centerist co-operation.
Several problems here.
"Centrist" is the starter for ten. Its used in so many different ways as to be meaningless.
Mostly seems to be used for chasing swing voters who really shouldnt be the major influencers in elections. They are a minority who only gain importance by being buyable.
Centre also has the problem that it moves. Its what the overton window is all about. The centre rarely stays "centre". Which is why we have some pretty extreme policies being pushed as centre ground when even a few years back they would have been seen as pretty hard right economically.
Your approach is the perfect breeding ground for hard right and hard left parties gaining votes. When people realise the parties arent representing them any longer. The centrists are mostly responsible for the mess we are in.
The slow motion car crash just got even slower.
It's like Inception innit?
When the only option to deliver on the referendum would be catastrophic and the majority of MPs would be against it of course there is another option.
There is, yes. But think about what that means. MPs, who the people already despise, will be taking it upon themselves to ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the people, who voted that way because they believe that politicians do not listen to them and are not interested in them. That is potentially a much bigger crisis than a no deal brexit. Much as I love a bit of protest and chaos, I'm genuinely fearful of where that could lead. I'm pretty sure what's happening in France now would look like child's play in comparison.
On the other hand, our country needs a kick in the political nuts. The overwhelming shitness of everyone since Blair (and by that I mean in terms of political competence, I'm not endorsing any policy in this post) has led us to where we are now. We don't have anyone who actually knows how to run a country and haven't for years. Where's our Merkel? Our Obama? Or how about a Trudeau or an Ardern?
As pissed off as I am about the lack of action from Labour I can appreciate their stance.
The only way they can hope to win a general election that is essentially a referendum on what happens from here is to be as squeaky clean as possible and not be portrayed as saboteurs, turncoats or what have you. That means staying the course and maintaining their respect for the result mantra.
It's shit but at this point I still don't think the result would go they way everyone here wants if they came in early. I only hope, if that's their plan, that it works.
I’m pretty sure what’s happening in France now would look like child’s play in comparison.
In its arse it would.
I’m pretty sure what’s happening in France now would look like child’s play in comparison.
Farage and that lot are all predicting the apocalypse if 'the People are betrayed'. In reality what will happen is a few people will tut loudly, shake their heads and write a letter to the daily telegraph in green ink, some will go as far as to ring in to a Five Live phone-in to say how jolly cross they are, a couple of hundred BNP Tommy Robinson types would have a march one Saturday afternoon in Rochdale, then the lot of them would go back to what they enjoy more than anything in the world....
Moaning about Europe.
Safely back in their comfort zones
Farage and that lot are all predicting the apocalypse if ‘the People are betrayed’
Can we not just tut and call that 'Project Fear'?
Following on from what Binners just said - how large was the pro-Brexit rally in London at the weekend? Spotted something in the i newspaper, but didn’t spot numbers of attendees, although they were allegedly vastly outnumbered by counter demonstrators. My guess is that it was nowhere near 700+ thousand, otherwise there’d have been more coverage(?)
In reality what will happen is a few people will tut loudly
Plus if we are talking about likelihood of riots I reckon they will be a tad more likely if Farage and co get their dream hard brexit and people realise that the unicorns promised do exist but are a tad psychotic and out to ruin their day.
If the will of the people is still the will of the people it will be heard.
If as claimed there are almost as many remainers who would now vote leave; their will would be heard.
Those who didn't vote because they didn't know what was on offer, their voice can be heard.
Those who are fearful of the effect on democracy have the ability to vote to keep the result whatever their true will.
I don't see how presenting that as a choice for parliament to offer the electorate is such a difficult sell. The only ones who won't accept it are those that know they threw a lucky punch in the first match and now know they aren't really the choice of the electorate.
Do "world leaders" have nothing better to do that they can drop everything nothing and meet TM at a whim? Clearly these are not important people if they have all the time in the world.
My dentist 3-4 months for appointment
My Dr 2 weeks, unless a death is imminent
My optician 2 weeks
Tradesman pffft, checks 2020 calendar
etc etc
"The centrists are mostly responsible for the mess we are in."
As I'm one of these filthy centrists, can you tell me what I should do to fix this clstfk that I, personally, have caused?
Be explicit about it, Dissonance, as it I though (foolishly) by not slavishly supporting one party (like Labour, Greens, NSDAP, CPSU, etc.), I might be encouraging parties to evolve and improve as, and I'm sure you'll find this laughable, I thought that huge mono-block parties that can count on slavish support (from say, trade unions or the "blue rinse" brigade) simply become complacent and irrelevant to us ba5tds that actually give a point to elections (seeing as if there are no swing voters, nothing would change.)
Specifically, describe the people, the blok, that aren't centrist.
Illuminate us with a description of this cohort that dont bring chaos and selfishness to democracy.
Please.
I really want to know what the righteous look like.
I'm not necessarily just talking about riots, I'm talking about the rise of the far right as a political force, an increase in racism and division in communities, and the long term decline and chaos caused by this issue not being resolved. Despite the strength of the establishment institutions, we still have government by consent. If the referendum vote is reversed without a further democratic vote and addressing the underlying issues, that consent will be massively eroded, to the point that it could collapse. If that happens all bets are off.
molgrips
...We don’t have anyone who actually knows how to run a country and haven’t for years. Where’s our Merkel? Our Obama? Or how about a Trudeau or an Ardern?
She's busy running Scotland...
an increase in racism and division in communities, and the long term decline and chaos caused by this issue not being resolved
Dont be daft man the politicians have said this is the peoples fault not theirs
As I’m one of these filthy centrists, can you tell me what I should do to fix this clstfk that I, personally, have caused?
As I said centrists is a pretty meaningless term so give your own definition and lets see.
Overall though out of the people I meet who call themselves centrists generally they have a piss poor understanding of politics and a serious arrogance level. For example you seem to be confusing supporting a political party as being the opposite of centrist. Which to put it mildly is somewhat odd.
If the referendum vote is reversed without a further democratic vote and addressing the underlying issues, that consent will be massively eroded, to the point that it could collapse. If that happens all bets are off.
if it doesn't happen, i think the unrest will be worse once the true scale of the disaster becomes apparent.
For example you seem to be confusing supporting a political party as being the opposite of centrist. Which to put it mildly is somewhat odd.
Just for the sake of, well, reality, imagine I'm thick, so explain the above in terms I might understand. Avoid condescension.
Jeremy Corbyn says that if the PM comes back from Europe with "nothing more than warm words" she must put the deal to MPs for a vote.
"No more delays, no more tricks, let Parliament take control," he says.
"If not, then she must go...we cannot allow this shambles to endure."
Let Parliament have a say on "this shabby deal", he tells ministers.
This government has lost the ability to lead, to negotiate and to speak for this Parliament, he says.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-46506969
From the current emergency debate, and listening to Labour and SNP this morning, I'd say they are giving her the chance/ultimatum to return with something, in such a way that she must bring back a deal this week that they can vote on. If nothing produced then call the no confidence, doing it today would allow people to give her the benefit of the doubt. If there is nothing else on NI then she has lost the DUP.
If the referendum vote is reversed without a further democratic vote and addressing the underlying issues, that consent will be massively eroded, to the point that it could collapse. If that happens all bets are off.
It's OK we can just intercept the express/mail and another royal can get married/pregnant, then throw in blue passports and we are off.
She’s busy running Scotland…
There’s another woman in Scottish politics that I’d be far more likely to vote for than Nicola.
Where’s our Merkel? Our Obama? Or how about a Trudeau or an Ardern?
She’s busy running Scotland…
As a nationalist she can't be called 'ours' by those outside Scotland.
is this all shenanigans and phoney?
Cabinet Office Minister David Lidington says that in the last month Theresa May has spent 22 hours at the despatch box speaking to Parliament.
He says that no-one who looks at how much time she has spent in Parliament can be "in doubt" as to how much work Theresa May is putting in to allow Parliamentary scrutiny.
Anyone have the time for a quick word analysis to see how often she has simply repeated the same thing? Still we should admire 22hrs/month as a serious amount of work,. I'll be back in 2022 then....
voters remorse starting to come out. this has been put up on my local news site:
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/news-opinion/brexit-leave-voter-writes-emotional-2316172
it is interesting to see things start to turn - i hope this and others things get more coverage. there is still a large number of people to whom leave means leave and toe hell with the consequences. I think it will be too little too late however
Bearing in mind the High Court decision about the dodgy dealing and black money in the Leave campaign is due shortly, you'd think the smart thing to do would be to use the Article 34 (?) to stop the process, and then do a fresh referendum to a better informed public later in 2019.
But I suppose that wouldn't be in the interests of the tax dodging billionaires who funded the Leave campaign and are the main financial support of the Tory party. They'll be sweating on getting the UK out of the EU before the crackdown on tax evaders comes into force in 2019.
Meanwhile, it looks like the SNP will propose a no confidence motion if Corbyn doesn't by the end of the day.
It’s like Inception innit?
Is the dream just in Farage's head that is then in turn in Bojo's head?
Meanwhile, it looks like the SNP will propose a no confidence motion if Corbyn doesn’t by the end of the day.
Well Sturgeon on R4 this morning said they can't they, they can use a censure motion but that is it.
Waiting for May to return with nothing does sound like a better plan though.
I’m not necessarily just talking about riots, I’m talking about the rise of the far right as a political force, an increase in racism and division in communities, and the long term decline and chaos caused by this issue not being resolved. Despite the strength of the establishment institutions, we still have government by consent. If the referendum vote is reversed without a further democratic vote and addressing the underlying issues, that consent will be massively eroded, to the point that it could collapse. If that happens all bets are off.
We have a representative democracy, not a direct one. We should have never have held the referendum in the first place, the British public need to accept that we are too thick to make decisions through direct democracy and instead pass that responsibility to parliament, so that they may make the best decisions for us. We need to stop and remember that.
Even ****ing Noel Gallagher and Danny Dyer agree, supposed working class heroes.
A cursory glance at history or indeed current politics will show that it is quite easy to have multiple parties across the political spectrum working and that they can act as a balance. It tends to get extreme and unpleasant when people dont have a choice and decide to go and find one. Which brings us nicely onto:
You are talking about PR yes? Well historically this led to co-operative centrist coalition politics, with the extremist parties pushed to the periphery of the political system or forced to co-operate and moderate their views. That has of course changed now and the extremists have got into power in places like Italy and Austria. Although there are some checks on their power at the moment.
The DUP's Gregory Campbell says that the EU and Irish governments have sold the British government a "line" on the importance of the backstop.
He says the UK does not need a backstop because anyone who works in the area would know "a hundred other ways" to get around hard border arrangements.
"There is no point, no basis for any backstop, we have been led into a trap," he states.
It's OK DUP have fixed the border
It's not that the average person is too thick to understand, they just don't bother to learn about the EU and what it does or why it might or might not have problems. This is why political education is so important and should be compulsory in schools. That and media studies.
The WTO will insist on a proper border in Ireland.
That ****s your no deal even further you soppy ****s.
The WTO will insist on a proper border in Ireland.
Indeed.
Something the no deal nutters either don't understand or most likely simply don't care about.
ANY hard border within Ireland will breach the GFA. There is no workable solution* other than remaining in the customs Union and single market.
(*cancelling the whole thing and getting life back to normal is a workable solution obviously)
molgrips Subscriber
This is why political education is so important and should be compulsory in schools. That and media studies.
Slightly off-topic, but as a (sometimes Media Studies) teacher I would totally support any Secretary of State for Education who suggested this happen. We need future generations to know what they're (currently pretty blindly in many cases) walking into...
The WTO will insist on a proper border in Ireland.
Not quite so clearcut. Both Varadkar and Junker have told the Irish Parliament there will be no hard border in event of no deal as well.
This is why political education is so important and should be compulsory in schools. That and media studies.
And Adult political re-education in later life? Schools have enough on their plate teaching the basics without adding subjects of dubious utility.