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The “moderates” are the way ahead despite those idiots being the ones who helped UKIP and co gain ground when they dived rightwards after the tories to chase the “centre” ground.
No, that was May legitimizing the hatred of immigrants during her time in the Home Office. Most peoples lives, including the majority of the working classes - got better under the Blairites.
Her go to answer was “I don’t care” no discussion, no thought, no politely embarrassed murmur just “I don’t care”.
We are well and truly ****. I’ll add she seemed an intelligent young woman and fairly well off. The sort of person that would be all for striding forward but, well, she just doesn’t care.
That's the answer I get from even close friends who are brexiteers. You mention the food/dairy issue - the answer is "oh but I support more jobs being created for UK farmers", so the question then becomes "So are you happy for high tech jobs that bring money into the country being replaced by fruit picking jobs, how is regressing as economic power a positive? Do you see Japan attempting to build a cotton picking industry?". The answer is then somewhere along the lines of "Shut up, I don't care, this isn't a debate, you're talking down at me. I've heard all the arguments, I'm a doer not a moaner".
I'd add that these people, are people who think that they are intelligent, they may even be quite specialized in a tight technical field - but they tend to base their opinions on one or two opinion column writers that they choose to read. They rarely read outside of their technical field and when they do, it's the opinion of a limited amount of writers - as they either do not care or do not have the time to read around a lot of subjects and develop a more holistic view of the world around them. They tend hold people like Jacob Rees Mogg in veneration, as the ideal image of an "intelligent person", however as the Guardian has stated, Mogg is the stupid persons idea of a clever person.
Unfortunately, the age of the polymath is dead.
That Labour supports staying in the Single Market and Customs Union… i.e. that they have a plan that can be implemented, where the government do not.
What is the point of a plan when you are not the people putting the plan in place and what if that plan would require us to keep freedom of movement and what if the Labour voters that voted Leave didn't like that plan ? But mainly, how is the Labour plan going to be implemented ?
kelvin
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Have you heard May’s speech?
Backstop is now dead.
Back to square one.
Nothing to show for last 2 years.
Has anyone got the actual quote. It sounds like she said something rather interesting - that the backstop should apply to the whole U.K.
I wonder what that means.
Barnier now:
Thanks for the paper, but how's any of this going to work?
He doesn't believe in unicorns then?
But mainly, how is the Labour plan going to be implemented ?
By being ready for, and forcing, a general election. This whole "not in power, don't need a plan" doesn't seem to apply to the NHS, taxation, pensions… etc… just to international trade and cooperation/coordination. You want votes? You want to be in power? You need policies that are better than the alternatives offered. You need to spell out how you will implement those policies.
This government is only winning votes in parliament with the support of DUP and Labour MPs… it is balanced on a knife edge… but will only falll if put under pressure by an opposition that has set out, and can win support for, a way out of our current stalemate.
How does not having a hard border fulfill the wishes of the WTO?
Do we need to stop talks with Brussels and try and get a better deal from Geneva?
Why certain politicians are so keen to bow down before an unelected foreign beauracracy I don't know.
Traitors.
I hope (but doubt) labour are silent because they have a bloody good plan that they don't want stealing or rubbishing before the next general election.
There won't be general election in time, unless they make a move… of course, many of us suspect that is the plan… to not make a move… to ensure any general election is too late… and then to assume power only after the damage is done.
I think this shares a lot in common with BoJo's plan.
Politics can’t trump reality.
Who's reality?
The people clamouring for no deal brexit view it as very real, they have an end game and its irrelevant who or what gets trampled on to achieve it.
Real reality. We can't do the borders, no time no plan no money, we can't survive without imported food, not for more than a few days. That's only the first bit. We can't fly planes either, well not legally. Nor nuclear power or radiation in medicine. All these things are immediate civilisation-threatening problems. There are others.
Kelvin - thanks for that link. I think I need a pint of what she’s having.
if I wrote something that convoluted, imprecise and indefinite at work they’d fire me.
Vacuous nonsense.
On the other hand, it had at least one sound bite for everyone.
@kelvin, disaster recovery is probably easier than disaster prevention right now.
I say easier from a standpoint that no one would get elected by just saying "let's just pretend all this Brexit stuff never happened and cary on as we were" even though they probably should.
So the Belfast agreement allows the Irish to choose to be Irish or British. Essentially a freedom of movement (of nationality)
How will that work going forward for someone in Derry who wants to be Irish any go live there, which they can do now under the EU and Belfast Agreement, but they're then told they can't because no FoM? Or will the Irish be given special allowance?
Basically the whole thing, as may and the Tories want it, can't happen.
We can leave the EU at the expense of the Belfast agreement. There is no fudged solution at all.
By being ready for, and forcing, a general election.
And again, what if the voters don't like the Labour plan or don't care about it and the tories win again with help from media. What sort of plan would bring people around to a majority agreement?
That's why they need to offer:
1) a plan for an achievable deal
2) a public vote on that plan
the time for fantasy politics is over
The Tories
1) don't have a plan
2) have ruled out a public vote
pair those two together, and they are ripe for being brought down and replaced
There is no realistic plan that can win in a vote, if the public are also offered a fantasy. Hence all that they (we) will be offered is a choice of fantasies.
Or will the Irish be given special allowance?
Still covered under the common travel area?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
In all seriousness the major services will keep running money from the magic money tree will be thrown at the problems and a half arsed implementation of “standards” will be applied
shortly followed by austerity max...
1) a plan for an achievable deal
2) a public vote on that plan
And again, what if the public don't vote for the achievable deal (assuming you have a guarantee that it will be agreed and not just something that just looks achievable). Remember how the public are not very good at voting for the right thing....
We choose the deal, or we give up on Brexit.
At some point, that decision needs to be made, and it looks like it'll have to be made by "US"…
…a wise Labour Party would now say…
"Here is a proposal for a workable deal. If you want a Brexit like this, vote for us… or if you now think Brexit should be abandoned, also vote for us. The Tories are the party of no deal Brexit, we are not. We are the party of anything but no deal Brexit."
A shed load of people will still go for no deal because they don't understand the entire consequences, does anyone?.
They've been sold the idea that anything EU is bad, therefore everything not EU is good. Plus they are largely deluded and believe we have the upper hand because we're British and British is best. No deal means the EU will cave to our superiority and give us what we want.
Labour can offer two ways out:
- an achievable Brexit plan
- a public vote
Those who want maximum disruption, with no plan for the future, can vote for someone else.
Let those people vote Tory or UKIP.
I think most of them will anyway.
Let those people vote Tory or UKIP.
I think most of them will anyway
Yes, the same that are voting Tory or UKIP now. You are rating the average voter a lot more highly than I am.
You know most of the voters won't have a clue what you are on about and just want to know when the immigrants are going don't you?
Great Ben Jennings cartoon in today’s Guardian
You know most of the voters won’t have a clue what you are on about and just want to know when the immigrants are going don’t you?
Clearly I do think more highly of other voters than you do.
So, do you want a general election? Do you want another vote specifically about Brexit? Or do you want some remix of the current shower to sleepwalk us into a mess that'll take the rest of our working lives to clean up properly?
A shed load of people will still go for no deal because they don’t understand the entire consequences, does anyone?.
A lot of people will vote for no deal because
it is at least a tangible option where there are some established rules (wto)
Remainers who want to punish leavers (or vice versa)
Or for all the noise and bullshit inactivity to go away (from the news). I think people would like to be living in caves rather than watch one more tv show full of hot air.
That's the irony… you can't vote to "tear it all up" and then expect it to be quietly over by tea time.
The brexiteer mentality is laid bare when barnier points out the bleeding obvious fact that the white paper isn't a workable proposal and Rees mogg likens him to an aggressive mafia boss. Well let's hope nanny finds a horses head next to Teddy at bedtime tonight Jacob.
it is at least a tangible option where there are some established rules (wto)
It still doesn't seem to have sunk in yet that the WTO is a private members club, of which the UK is only currently a member through being in the EU. The US, Brazil and Australia have stated that they would block UK membership unless they get trade deals that benefit them. There is no automatic enrolment to trading under WTO and some countries have seen weakness and decided to go in for the kill. When brexiteers claim we can/will trade under WTO rules post brexit they are lying (who'd have funked it), it is another agreement that has to be reached quickly but current member will be able to dictate terms, so the UK will be royally rogered.
https://www.ft.com/content/92bb5636-a95b-11e7-ab55-27219df83c97
https://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing-simple-about-uk-regaining-wto-status-post-brexit
Anna Soubry on the last leg at 10.
That could be interesting
Currently sat in Zell Am See hospital waiting for my wife to come around from surgery after she broke her arm this morning.
Marvellous things these EHIC cards.
Nicer even than a blue passport though?
Hope your better half is ok Col
Can we expect a hike in European holiday insurance?
They even spoke perfect English to us instead of all that foreign they speak over here, bloody EU
Imagine an alternate reality where the Germans kick us out of the eu.
They then fine us 40 billion quid and demand that all car and aerospace manufacturing is moved to mainland Europe.
Then all brits are denied rights to travel in the eu and have to queue up to get in .
Then they impose extra taxes on stuff we want to buy from the eu.
Do you think that the hate press would be happy with that? Would they feel free or ****ed over?
Those articles re the WTO are interesting... not only do we lose the power of the EU block but we get to negotiate a second time against powerful farming lobbyists...
Looks like we will be heading to a proper free market.
Farmers (who voted resoundingly for Brexit) won't be chuffed to find that their expectation that they'll receive their subsidies direct from HMG are going to be seriously disappointed that they'll be pawns in a further negotiation with WTO that'll probably leave them poorer....Brexit the 'gift' that keeps giving!
Can we expect a hike in European holiday insurance?
Read the T&Cs, many insurance policies require an EHIC. So to answer your question, yes.
Rees Mogg on Channel 4 News it could be 50 years before we see the benefits of Brexit.
FFS
My 103 birthday will be a belter.
Farmers (who voted resoundingly for Brexit)
I'm enjoying the schadenfreude. The UKIP veg grower round this way is in for a nasty shock and much lower turnover.
Well theres a first me agreeing with Mogg, i think all is more or less lost and we will end up in a very bad place.
Our ecomomy with its full employment is smoke and mirrors and the productivity statistics confirm this.
The tax rises and services cuts that will be required to keep the shit show running will be very unpleasent.
The Tory party will end up out power and Labour will not be able to cope with the post brexit economy without borrowing lots of money.
The grown ups know this hence Moggs comments, but truth is they are well enough financially protected to ride the storm.
The likes of Boris, Mogg Farage, Davis etc all know the US obsession with "posh" England gets them all business opportunities including books, tours, investments, non execs etc.
This was WW2 in UK political terms, WW1 was Thatcher.
This was a fight for who becomes our "parents" and the EU has lost us and we are now Trumps Bitch.
Rees Mogg on Channel 4 News it could be 50 years before we see the benefits of Brexit.
I sure he will see the benefits of it sooner than that but of course he won't mention what he is getting out of it personally.
A nice sound bite vid of him saying that wouldn't be a bad thing to be doing the rounds
Rees Mogg is a little twerp who got his first stiffee when matron rubbed his tummy at boarding school. He hasn't the first concept of ordinary folk and actually uses this as a selling point for the tossers who lap up celebrity appearances on HIGNFY at face value.
The average **** in the street who thinks the circus of PMQs is how things get decided just forms their stupid opinion on soundbites. For heaven's sake, even that totally useless and unwarranted 'knight' Soames is able to sound ministerial amongst the current wunch of bankers. Yes, he of wardrobe and key fame. Shame on us. If the EU choose to **** us over (as we deserve), any sane person can only say "Well, there you go".
The whole thing is a national disgrace and I will never, ever vote Tory again as I used to prior to 2016. And yes, I admit I was wrong my whole voting life up until that point.
Here is a thought. If by some miracle we were to remain in the EU, the new Japan trade deal has, in one fowl swoop, negated the need for Nissan, Honda and Toyota to actually produce their cars in the UK. OK it cuts down on transport costs to Europe but there will surely be a political will to bring those jobs back home since there will be no tariffs and quotas any more.
Nissan is French owned.
Good article in the Guardian - that Ninfan might agree with for once
My own work confirms this. The 2016 exit poll showed that Trump won because he decisively beat Clinton among the 18% of Americans who did not like either candidate. These voters tended to be suburban, college-educated, Republican-leaning men. These “reluctant Trump voters” were undecided until the very end of the race, but ultimately decided that the devil whose policies they liked was better than the devil whose policies they didn’t.
One can be outraged at how Trump is enforcing immigration laws without thinking eliminating enforcement is a good idea
AdvertisementDemocrats have done nothing since Trump’s election to reduce these feelings. On issue after issue the Democratic party has moved to the left, catering to a progressive base outraged at Trump’s election and seething at how the Democratic establishment foisted a fatally flawed candidate upon them. The latest progressive cause célèbre is for eliminating America’s border enforcement agency, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (Ice). One can be outraged at how Trump is enforcing America’s immigration laws without thinking that eliminating all border enforcement is a good idea. An idea like this keeps Republicans united in their support for Trump as it clearly shows how unacceptable the alternative is.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has, predictably, hardened the attitudes of many Trump supporters. As minor issues are blown up into major catastrophes, it’s not surprising that potentially major issues like Trump’s embarrassing and obsequious behavior towards Russian president Vladimir Putin in Helsinki get overlooked. It’s “boy who cried wolf” syndrome writ large; when the media cries “wolf” at every passing shadow, many Trump backers simply don’t believe them when they say that a wolf might actually be coming.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/23/liberals-donald-trump-support
This is also, exactly why I think Corbyn will lose the next general election.
For those of us that are hard of thinking, how does that link to leaving the EU? Is it that some people will vote for anyone/thing that promises to hit the hate plank of people they identify as "others", and won't vote for someone/thing that they feel might not do so?
Wrong thread, whoooooo! You seem a bit hurt though, that the Blairites may have a point.
Hopefully the Blairites will have their own party by next G.E
Hopefully the Blairites will have their own party by next G.E
Don't think the divided Tory party would use that name for the non ERG group, no matter how close to his polciies they are....
Hurt? Blarites? What the actual __ are you all on about? Weird. Perhaps there's another thread I need to read.
Hurt? Blarites? What the actual __ are you all on about? Weird. Perhaps there’s another thread I need to read.
I think that the general point, which is loosely tied to this thread, is that the polarised left are making themselves unelectable. Whether it's Corbyn, selling out the young and centrist remain voters, loud social justice types putting off moderate Tories who may otherwise vote for a Blairite government, or Democrats who's increasing swing to the left in response to Trump is only serving to harden the attitudes of supporters who may have ditched Trump.
If you read that article carefully, it is only one base of Trump supporters that are attracted by his racism - the rest aren't.
And as you're response shows, the left seems to have an innate ability to utterly ignore that fact. So yes, that article is indirectly linked to this thread and the way UK politics is in itself going.
I don't believe for a second that the current labour polling numbers are a true indication of what they would achieve in a general election. And if they do win because hard brexiteers vote for UKIP, the following election will be a wipeout for Labour and they won't get in for another two decades after taking on the poisoned chalice of a post-Brexit government and solidifying a centrist-tory response.
"The Left" over this side of the Atlantic make use of the anti-migrant feeling as much as anyone. The current Labour leadership's only real red line as regards a new relationship with the EU is that "FOM must end".
"loud social justice types"… you'll need the define which issues you think are a turn off for "moderate" voters, and why. I might agree with you, but I'd need details.
Nice that, after all I've said about Corbyn and his cabal, in this thread, that my "response" to a pretty random post can be seen as proving something about "the left".
I see Hunt is getting his excuses in early. So that when we crash out with no deal and the country dissolves into anarchy, it'll all be the EU's fault, apparently.
No blame can be laid at the door of the clueless ****-wits on this side of the channel
I knew the Libdems had an in/out referendum on the next major change, in their manifesto in 2010. I hadn't appreciated they had taken steps to force an unconditional in/out vote in 2007:
"Tomorrow the Liberal Democrats will table an amendment to the Government’s parliamentary motion proposing the Queen’s Speech. Our amendment calls for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union."
https://www.libdemvoice.org/vince-cable-on-european-referendum-1609.html
Might well have been a better time to have had it.
Corbyn has just delivered a speech to stress the 'advantages' of Brexit to the UK
At least he's finally done away with the pretence that he was ever in favour of anything else. So it looks like the left of the Labour party is now totally in step with Rees-Mogg, IDS and the Hard Brexiteers.
At best this speech was an unwelcome distraction from the dominant challenge of protecting UK jobs in the face of the catastrophe of a “no deal” Brexit and the long-term pain of a hard one. At worst it was a cynical dogwhistle aimed at already grievously misled Leave voters – and the dipping of Labour’s toe into some very dangerous waters.
Makes you wish he'd carried on naval-gazing about the exact definition of antisemitism for another 6 months
We really are totally ****ed, aren't we?
Opposition my arsenal, pathetic self interest from a man completely out of his depth. A government so injured and begging for a coup de grace and he does this.
No lube no reach around
I formally tender my resignation from this country.
I'm obviously out of step from what this country wants.
I ask nothing of the UK and I expect the UK to ask nothing of me.
It was nice while it lasted but **** you.
So, the benefit he is welcoming is… a less well off country… strange definition of "benefit".
He needs to go.
Jeremy Torybyn.
I thought momentum were very much single market.
Nah zippy - it's the policicians who are out of step. A hung referendum result was grabbed with both hands as a mandate to leave come what May, and despite many of them being aware that it'll damage the UK for a decade or more they're still doing it to cling to their addiction of 'power'. A responsible approach would have been to take the referendum result as a mandate to review our relationship with the EU, to tighten up the things that were already in our power that were causing grief (blue passports!) and then for a group of grown ups to decide what if anything to do about leaving or staying. Too late for that now though.
I wrote recently how I wished to punish labour for their awful handling of the Scottish Indy ref. They were until fairly recently the largest party in Scotland, and held far more Scottish MP's by a long way over any other party. They allowed the SNP to stroll into draw the support of the working class in Scotland. Their feeble capitulation in Scotland is almost sad to behold.
They now have Richard what's his face in charge at Holyrood and Corbyn saying Brexit is good. Corbyn does not strike a chord up here where remain support was 2:1 in favour. Labour could have relied on 40-50 Scottish MP's in the past, but I now almost hope for a Labour wipe out. They have lost my previously staunch support and may not win it back for many years.
I thought momentum were very much single market.
Nah, the leadership are Bennites:
Can we expect a labour remain revolt?
As that would involve someone developing a spine, I wouldn’t hold your breath.
the leadership rules, combined with the Momentum takeover of the party now mean that any condemnation of the Beardy Messiah will simply get you deselected.
I’m just surprised that the average Momentum member, being apparently young, metropolitan and educated, and therefore Remainers, are still going along with their cult leader facilitating a right wing coup.
His speech today was apparently delivered with the express intention of wooing Tory leave voters
I just despair
Dominic Raab confirmed preparations are being made to stockpile food in the event of a 'no deal' scenario in which food supplies are disrupted.
This is better than a 'bad deal' how exactly?
And in other news.
Theresa May has risked the fury of Brexiteer MPs by announcing plans to keep the UK under EU laws for a further 21 months.
The 1972 European Communities Act will not be fully repealed until the end of the planned transition period, at the end of 2020 – rather than on exit day next year.
Dominic Raab, the Brexit secretary told MPs the move was necessary to “ensure the statute book functions properly....in accordance with the agreement we have made with the EU”
Just what the hell is going on?!?!
And also:
Jacob Rees-Mogg's investment firm opens second Ireland fund but insists it 'has nothing to do with Brexit’
And Ian Paisley suspended buy the DUP for shenanigans, what doe that make the conservative majority now?
Ok look. I disagree with Corbyn on the EU but calling him a Tory or saying he's the same as Mogg is bloody stupid. They may want the same thing on one particular point but I'll guarantee its for completely different reasons.
Doesn’t really matter how we get there, does it Molls. The end result is all that matters. And the hard right nutters must be delighted with Jezza
I don't think that Corbyn is the same as the tories but it demonstrates he is nothing more than a self serving politician just like the rest of them. They all differ idealogically one way or another, except for their greed for control and power.
I don’t think that Corbyn is the same as the tories but it demonstrates he is nothing more than a self serving politician just like the rest of them. They all differ idealogically one way or another, except for their greed for control and power.
What complete shit
They all differ idealogically one way or another, except for their greed for control and power.
I am not sure Corbyn is greedy for real power. He does his best to show he clearly doesn't want to be Prime Minister.