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Look at the trend.
As with all trends, you have to choose what period to cover. My personal view is that including the period around 2012 is not terribly useful when it comes to predicting future voting intentions in a year or even two year's time. If you started mapping your trend in early 2015, it would be equally misleading in favour of Leave. Perhaps someone should have explained this to David Cameron when he was pondering a referendum around that time.
I do wish you were right, obviously, but all I can see there is 'Too Close to Call' from the second half of 2015 onwards, with no reliable lead for Remain emerging..yet.
Remain would have to campaign on the ticket of having been to the edge of the cliff, looked over, and decided it isn’t so appealing after all, but at the same time realising that we should be more aware of taking control of specific parts of our sovereignty that we always had but never exercised in the past.
Well yes, but try writing that on a bus and see how it looks. Complexity of Reality vs Simplicity of Fantasy.
Yep - like I said; they'd still have the best soundbites, whether true or not.
So, the lying blohard hasn’t resigned.. was that a lie too or did someone make the whole story up?
As is, he is quoted as saying “we can still save Brexit” which is language for, the deals done and I’m still whining on like an old MAWCB because I simply can’t shut my cakehole and face facts.
I’d still like to see him and foaming farage (yuk, I feel dirty typing his name) in the stocks outside Westminster for all to see and sneer at as a point of reference to those who lie as public servants and cheat the public into believing misstruths to promote their own political careers.
Yep – like I said; they’d still have the best soundbites, whether true or not
And the snazziest uniforms. You can't deny the fascists were always impeccably turned out.
In other news, Cliff Richard won £210k in damages for the privacy breach at his home against the BBC.
Cliff's privates were breached?
So, the lying blohard hasn’t resigned
This was his resignation speech for his resignation as minister last week. Sadly not him resigning as an MP to go and dive under a bulldozer shouting "freeedddooooommmmm".
I think we got the speech because after all his careful letter writing and posing looking seriously there were more important things on that day so he mostly got ignored.
Cliff’s privates were breached?
Yes, and this was broadcast live from the NEWSCOPTER!
So, the lying blohard hasn’t resigned.. was that a lie too or did someone make the whole story up?
No, he did resign, as ForSec.
It's Parliamentary 'convention' that an outgoing minister can if he chooses make a resignation speech to the house, and it's also convention that he is listened to rather than heckled. Thus, it gave him a chance to get the knives out if he wished, whereas if he'd had to do that either in post, or as part of a normal brexit debate he'd have been there to be shot at.
It also apparently meant another part of parliamentary process / shenanigans. Because people aren't 'allowed' to interrupt the way to show disapproval is to sit near him and silently shake heads, pull faces, etc. and because the eyes / cameras are on him they see the disapproval of the people near him. Except that didn't happen because his gammony mates all got there first, took up a load of spaces on the back benches, and then he arrived after and sat in the middle of them. So when you see it on the news later, all you'll see is him speaking and everyone around him nodding along.
Just seen an excellent and I think original turn of phrase to describe that arsehole Johnson.
A shit leaving a sinking rat.
Now that I like!
Well somebody needs to start publishing lists of the costs on the side of busses. The cost of control in a nice monthly income tax figure.
Cost of a border?
Cost of the eu bits to be replaced
Cost of jobs lost so far?
#ProjectReality vs #ProjectFantasy
Remain would have an almost impossible task,
It always seems impossible, until it is done.
I'm not prepared to see the ERG, "sell us to the US in a heartbeat" Liam Fox, Farage and Co win again.
Luckily we have a template ready to go.
Elections and referendums these days (someday it’ll get back to something approaching normality) are won on emotion - not cold hard logical & reasonable examination of facts.
And this is where I’d be sceptical of any kind of hope for remaining. Leave have all the emotion - freedom, control, the concept of being free of the shackles of rule from abroad. Don’t think they wouldn’t use it all again and even more strongly.
In a 2nd vote they’d be able to spin out loads of negative emotions to run alongside the “positive” emotions from 2016. “Betrayal,” “The establishment don’t trust you...” etc etc. It’s a heady mix and I can’t see what Remain would have with which to counter that.
I’d be all for countering Leavers with the dirty tricks they played but I can’t see where the emotional buy-in would come from and that’s what they’d need.
Presently, everyone in he country knows that the Leave campaign broke the LAW - not just rules, but the LAW. The ****ing LAW ffs. And nobody (that can actually do anything about it) seems to give enough of a flying ****. Corbyn and his coterie of headbangers - Milne, Mason and the other brocialists aren’t saying anything about it at all. So, yeah, the “democracy” we have now, as flawed and fragile as it is, apparently means nothing if you have enough cash to throw at it. We’re all ****ed.
This johnston resignation thing is a fudge btw to make brexit look palatable to the masses.
Oh look the hard brixteers are upset, Mays brexit plans must be the reasonable way forward.
Expect johnston to be back in a job once his task is over and everyones forgot about this.
those technical notices might do some good, the gammon won't care. But many more normal people when faced with the realities might swing away from brexit.
But many more normal people when faced with the realities might swing away from brexit.
The big question is how much irreversible damage will that take? In my opinion, with the likes of the retail sector, the impact of 2008 hasn't yet fully played out.
the UK regulatory agency used to be famous for recognising the grey in all drug trials which is why the UK was a popular research location.
if companies go to all the trouble of duplicating all the facilities and approvals in an EU location and then the UK manages to retain some access to the regulatory market they have an extra facility/headcount/cost so one will not be needed any more.
which one gets “streamlined”?
"We don't care, it's a price worth paying."
As a light hearted aside, does anyone else wonder why you never see Theresa May and Noel Gallagher in the same room?
they could just bullshit like the Leave campaign did and make wild promises about all the things we could negotiate with the EU if we promised to remain.
That is exactly what a remain campaign should do. Just state it like facts "we will negotiate with EU to stop freedom of movement", "Immigration will be at 10,000 per year by 2020". Maybe put it on the side of a bus
Brexit has shown up some fascinating contradictions:
- Being "in" the EU means the Commission will negotiate trade deals on our behalf (1)- we are stronger as part of a bigger trade bloc and better placed to get trade deals - but Switzerland (outside) has negotiated 25% more trade deals despite being tiny
- Being "in" the EU means the Commission will negotiate trade deals on our behalf (2) - but the latest trade deal with Canada didn't negotiate on all Services despite the fact that the UK is critically very different to other EU member states in the role services plays as a contributor to GDP
- Being "in" the EU requires UK companies to comply with standards - but many of the standards are set in Germany, flouted by other countries and in many cases shown to be completely fake (Nox in cars, boiler efficiency etc etc.) In these cases no action is taken by the Commission or the ECJ
- The Commission requires states to liberalise services and enact European treaties - but invariably takes no action when france and germany fail to do this
- David Cameron tried to negotiate controls on freedom of movement and the role of the EECJ and was laughed out of town and patronised for his efforts - since when Merkel et al have repeatedly interfered in UK politics stating free trade requires freedom of movement and ongoing supervision by the ECJ - but the EU has just signed a free trade deal with Japan that does not include freedom of movement or supervision by the ECJ
- The Commission requires the Uk to continue to observe rules in a transitional period - whilst blatantly breaking its own rules e.g. freezing the UK out of satellite constortia, medicines control etc before a deal is even concluded
- The Commission says that brexit will undermine security in Europe and creates concern for continual EU citizens living in the UK - but when the UK unilaterally makes pledges on security (intell) and right to remain the rest of the EU member states fail to reciprocate and the commission has nothing to say on the matter
- The Commission is legally required to negotiate in good faith and avoid cliff edge trade disputes as part of its bi-lateral agreements with the WTO - but is demonstrably doing the very opposite of this in the sequencing of the brexit negotiations
- The Commission says that in the brexit negotiations we must agree to coupling free trade, freedom of movement, common standards and the ECJ, but signs a free trade deal on behalf of member states with Japan that has none of these
- Unelected Commission officials says they don't wish to interfere in domestic politics - but solicit negotiations with the leader of the opposition party to our elected government and continually resort to highly personal attacks and leaks that are clearly designed to undermine our own elected representatives
- the British public is obsessed by the potential for chlorinated chicken imported from the States, but is happy that c70% of the chicken we can buy has salmonella, and blissfully unaware that most vegetables and salad served in restaurants since the 1990s has been chlorinated to improve food safety - most people haven't grown two heads or a tail in this period.
My reading of the above is that:
1) the public are mad
2) the conduct of the Commission on behalf of the EU member states shows it is highly political, mainly interested in preserving itself, and that the direction of travel if we remain in the EU is quite concerning from both a trade and sovereign state perspective.
You are confusing a trade deal with being in the single market … the EU have said we can have either … the costs and benefits of each have been clear for years. Pick one. Don't pretend you can have the greater benefits of one, with the lower costs/responsibilities of the other.
There are errors/misrepresentations in every point you make… but I think they've all been covered in the many pages in this thread… so I doubt anyone will go through them all again now…
those technical notices might do some good, the gammon won’t care. But many more normal people when faced with the realities might swing away from brexit.
Yep I can’t wait to see what gems they are going to put out, probably end up causing some mad panic buying clearing supermarket shelves.
I think we should really be standing back and giving them a huge round of applause for the fantastic work they’ve done in the last 2 years preparing us for this easy transition, just before they nip off early on their 10 week hols. 🙂
Quantify the Trade positives and negatives. Collective works both ways. We win and we loose but come up better overall.
Many of us were happy with the FOM and ECJ
I was happy with what the deal was before.
TM set red lines right at the beginning, the EU gave a set of responses based on those red lines.
We still don't know what TM wants. But the EU offer has been clear for most of the last 2 years.
im not sure where you cut n paste that from robdixon, but its full of falsehoods, was it from a vote leave/mogg associated site by any chance?
– Being “in” the EU means the Commission will negotiate trade deals on our behalf (1)- we are stronger as part of a bigger trade bloc and better placed to get trade deals – butSwitzerland (outside) has negotiated 25% more trade deals despite being tiny
the list of switzerand FTA deals includes some of the smallest countries in the world, by number it is higher, by export value ours are far (30%) bigger
more to the point switzerland is a unique case in the world, they invest twice as much as the UK in science & R&D spend way more than us on early years & hugher education, so many reasons for their success & have highest gdp per capita in the world, they invested that nazi gold wisely! 😉
– Being “in” the EU means the Commission will negotiate trade deals on our behalf (2) – butthe latest trade deal with Canada didn’t negotiate on all Services despite the fact that the UK is critically very different to other EU member states in the role services plays as a contributor to GDP
Both canada & the EU excluded (some) services from the deal, one of the big barriers here is because the deal did not include FOM, mutual recognition of qualifications etc, very hypocritical of brexies to try & use this! http://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/publications/can-ceta-plus-solve-the-uks-services-problem/
– Being “in” the EU requires UK companies to comply with standards – but many of the standards are set in Germany, flouted by other countries and in many cases shown to be completely fake (Nox in cars, boiler efficiency etc etc.) In these cases no action is taken by the Commission or the ECJ
No doubt that VW etc lobbied hard to reduce emission standards but recent ruling have enforced EU bans on german diesels https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/court-ruling-opens-door-diesel-bans-german-cities & of course Dyson won his ECJ battle in the end https://www.ft.com/content/562c55be-3654-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e
this is one area where UK should be staying in the EU to push for better standards & punishments as pollution & climate change doesnt obey national borders, a clear example of brexit self-harm, we clearly lose influence in the world on this.
– The Commission requires states to liberalise services and enact European treaties – butinvariably takes no action when france and germany fail to do this
again UK has been one of biggest drivers of liberalisation in services, research, medicines & air travel being notable UK success, not to mention EU patent court we have been huge driver in setting up !
– David Cameron tried to negotiate controls on freedom of movement and the role of the EECJ and was laughed out of town and patronised for his efforts – since when Merkel et al have repeatedly interfered in UK politics stating free trade requires freedom of movement and ongoing supervision by the ECJ – but the EU has just signed a free trade deal with Japan that does not include freedom of movement or supervision by the ECJ
Cameron (& May as home sec) chose not to enact the controls on EU workers already allowed by the EU & indeed used by many EU states to repatriate EU citizens who havent worked for 3 months , UK business are very keen to prevent this being used as it means we have a very flexible workforce https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-_b_13120104.html
EU/Japan trade deal is no where near as close as one we would want after Brexit & EU very clear that final arbiter on EU law is ECJ, they are setting up separate arbiter for EU/Japan deals
– The Commission requires the Uk to continue to observe rules in a transitional period – whilst blatantly breaking its own rules e.g. freezing the UK out of satellite constortia, medicines control etc before a deal is even concluded
this is partly a function of our very weak negotiating hand, but mostly its just lies UK itself agreed rules that 3rd countries couldnt take part in sensitive aspects of galileo & EMA is only open to EEA & full EU members, both ruled out by OUR government, leaving EMA was in one of governments first white papers
– The Commission says that brexit will undermine security in Europe and creates concern for continual EU citizens living in the UK – but when the UK unilaterally makes pledges on security (intell) and right to remain the rest of the EU member states fail to reciprocate and the commission has nothing to say on the matter
It was May that threatened to link security with a trade deal almost straight away after the vote & UK took 18 months to concede that EU citizens could keep same rights as UK BUT looking at GoHomevanMay & windrush scandal, EU are very right to be skeptical of UK government
– The Commission is legally required to negotiate in good faith and avoid cliff edge trade disputes as part of its bi-lateral agreements with the WTO – but is demonstrably doing the very opposite of this in the sequencing of the brexit negotiations
David Davis promised sequencing would be the 'row of the summer' obviously he meant to say the 'row-back of the summer' but whether shellshocked after his early GE disaster or because the idiot brexiters simply had no other plan we conceded this on day 1 of the talks, wit EU negotiators surprised that we hadnt negotiated on it as they expected!! https://www.ft.com/content/c7923fba-1d31-39fd-82f0-ba1822ef20d2
– The Commission says that in the brexit negotiations we must agree to coupling free trade, freedom of movement, common standards and the ECJ, but signs a free trade deal on behalf of member states with Japan that has none of these
see above Japa FTA is nowhere near close to benefits we enjoy now & brexiters pretend we will keep
– Unelected Commission officials says they don’t wish to interfere in domestic politics – butsolicit negotiations with the leader of the opposition party to our elected government and continually resort to highly personal attacks and leaks that are clearly designed to undermine our own elected representatives
' unelected comission officials' like Tusk- elected by the EU heads of state, Juncker- elected by MEPs, Barnier is an appointed trade delegate like every other trade delegate in the world, the democratic defict in the EU exists but only indirectly & they have 33,000 civil servants, UK has 400,000 (including 30,000 hired just for brexit!!)
& they are as nothing to the leaks & personal attacks from the brexiteers Johnson, Mogg etc have heaped on May, infact theyve been a better ally than 50% of her own party
– the British public is obsessed by the potential for chlorinated chicken imported from the States, but is happy that c70% of the chicken we can buy has salmonella, and blissfully unaware that most vegetables and salad served in restaurants since the 1990s has been chlorinated to improve food safety – most people haven’t grown two heads or a tail in this period.
chlorinated chicken is just (lazy) shorthand for lower welfare & other standards , more to the point its got **** all to do with the chlorine, its used at the final stage of processing so that american suppliers dont need to adhere to hygiene & welfare standards earlier down the line.The problem is that UK farmers would be fuct if they had to compete with American GMO crops, steroid fed meat & many other corners they cut which EU does not allow.
BUT my take on this is that you need to think for yourself before just reposting any old rubbish , it really makes you seem like you dont have a clue about this.
BUT I suppose its an excellent example of brexiters in that respect, so well done robdixon, well done
Petition to cancel Brexit due to dodgy dealings by the Leave campaign:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/223729
The interactive map of where people have been signing from is fascinating.
Being “in” the EU requires UK companies to comply with standards – but many of the standards are set in Germany, flouted by other countries and in many cases shown to be completely fake (Nox in cars, boiler efficiency etc etc.) In these cases no action is taken by the Commission or the ECJ
This is patently bollocks, Britains MHRA were one of if not the primary drivers of the EMA regs. Regulations that can and does get companies shut down for flouting the rules.
but many of the standards are set in Germany, flouted by other countries and in many cases shown to be completely fake
Also the UK sent idiots who didn't want to be involved to the EU, look at Farage's record he had the chance to do stuff but didn't vote or show up. You can't send this lot to represent you and complain they did nothing. It's been sabotage from day one with a lot of MEP's
Id really like robdixon to come back & defend his ill-informed post....?
Oh and petition signed and tweeted to my MP who apparently is in the shadow cabinet so no idea what they really think
https://twitter.com/mrchrisaddison/status/1019709983431290880
The interactive map of where people have been signing from is fascinating.
Higher numbers in most major urban areas as expected with the exception of Birmingham which is interesting.
With all the focus on the single market, customs union, economics and all the politics, we've sort of forgotten about all the other really great aspects of Brexit. So its nice of the police watchdog to remind us about the storming comeback of good, old fashioned, best-of-British racism!
The irony of someone (robdixon) trying to prove Leave have more than simple soundbites by cutting and pasting a load of verbiage in which every point is bollocks to varying degrees is luscious.
Stick to emotive soundbites. Remember your audience, they'll string you up if you sound too much like an expert. And you'll save a lot of valuable cutting and pasting time too.
no cnfidence letters coming from Philip Davies apparently
meanwhile...
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1019895529201963008
another resignation coming?
has May even replaced Gutto Bebb & sex-pest Andrew Griffiths the 2 other ministers shes lost in teh last week?
Did you hear the pet Brexit MP (David Jones) on Radio4 Today?
Because we import more food from them than they do from us, they are "reliant" on us, and not the other way around.
Because they import more drugs from us than we do from them, they are "reliant" on us, and not the other way around.
Higher numbers in most major urban areas as expected
Absolute numbers are skewed by the fact that there are more people in major urban areas.
Constituency sizes vary from 21,769 in the Hebrides to 110,697 in the Isle of Wight.
Switch to "Colour by % of constituents" for a more representative view.
Did you hear the pet Brexit MP (David Jones) on Radio4 Today?
I think the completely nonsensical bone-headed statements made by all the leading Brexiteers recently, add up to a pretty damning inditement of the quality of the private education system in this country.
remember when the UK government had a plan for Brexit (all of 2 weekends ago) & tried to go round the back of Barnier & appeal to the 27EU states directly by sneding them translations of the (now mogged over) chequers white paper, turns out that they were all mistranslated
I wondered if they’d get some unpaid intern to do it using Google translate.
Spent the day with a load of Dutch people. They asked about Brexit. I ranted, then during the ensuing discussion one commented on how stupid we were - they all laughed, I was about to counter but realised I couldn't.
Apparently on their media they showed the same kind of interview we saw after the result: "I voted leave to get rid of the brown people" etc.
Most French people I talk to about Brexit think the UK is already out and could not care less. They think it was stupid décision.
So after accepting it In December the tories have changed their mind. That is going to play well with the EU.
Swedish friend described Brexit as Britain has failed an exam.
So it really is now hard Brexit.
Here's the thing. We've been told for years how politicians are in the pocket of big business, how they're all corrupt, how business really runs things.
I'm genuinely hoping that turns out to be true, and they start applying the necessary pressure to get the whole thing abandoned
Most French people I talk to about Brexit think the UK is already out and could not care less. They think it was stupid decision.
A friend was in Germany a few weeks ago and as soon as people there found out she was British, they'd be laughing and saying how stupid all the English were for Brexit. Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe.
A couple of years ago (just before the Brexit vote and the American elections) I was talking to an American tourist in Scotland. She apologised for Donald Trump. I apologised for Brexit. We both went on our ways naively thinking that it couldn't actually get that bad, that Leave wouldn't win and that the Trump wouldn't be elected.
Oh how wrong we were....
<p lang="en" dir="ltr">Brexit Latest: The country is now divided between people who think the boss of Airbus best understands what running Airbus involves and people who think Nadine Dorries could teach him a thing or two about running Airbus.</p>— James O'Brien (@mrjamesob) July 19, 2018
https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js
A friend was in Germany a few weeks ago and as soon as people there found out she was British, they’d be laughing and saying how stupid all the English were for Brexit. Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe.
Yep. My office is on the 13th floor of a German Bank’s headquarters in Frankfurt. I’d echo exactly what your friend has said. Everyone there, from the taxi drivers and hotel receptionist to executives thinks we’re the most stupid nation on the planet right now. To be honest, I’d have to agree.
So after accepting it In December the tories have changed their mind. That is going to play well with the EU.
Well I think they’ve just been agreeing to keep the ball rolling to kick can further along the road.
Does seem that the current strategy is to pretty much threaten the eu with a hard Brexit to try and get her deal.
“threaten the EU with a hard deal"
ROFL
"We'll shoot ourselves in the head if you don't xyz"
Can Sinn Fein please take their seats.
These are extraordinary times and extraordinary things need to happen.
they won't as it's looks like they are going to get a "de facto" united Ireland
This is now the time that the phrase "Cluster ****" was invented for. Between Trump/Putin and Brexit, I quietly despair for the future of humanity.
to try and get her deal
Do you mean a trade deal? The White Paper was already full of holes and impossible implementations, and the amendments have made it so that it contradicts itself. There has to be a process of turning it into something concrete, and at that point the Tory party reject it (never mind the opinion of parliament, or "the people").
If you mean the withdrawal agreement, looks like all work on that is close to being scraped as DUP, ERG and Kate "the saviour of the union" Hoey have pushed the PM into rolling back all that has already been agreed on a backstop for Ireland and, payments for commitments previously made.
Anyone heard anything from the labour party? While this shitshow unravels?
No?
Thought not.
Not only do we not have a government. The opposition appears to have gone AWOL as well.
As this impending disaster materialises, Corbyn and his spineless, useless acolytes should be held equally as accountable as May and her shower of ****-wits
Do you mean a trade deal? The White Paper was already full of holes and impossible implementations, and the amendments have made it so that it contradicts itself. There has to be a process of turning it into something concrete, and at that point the Tory party reject it (never mind the opinion of parliament, or “the people”).
Yep and I agree the white papers a total farce 🙂
As this impending disaster materialises, Corbyn and his spineless, useless acolyte
Yes we get it. Corbyn is to blame for everything.
The "moderates" are the way ahead despite those idiots being the ones who helped UKIP and co gain ground when they dived rightwards after the tories to chase the "centre" ground.
Anyone heard anything from the labour party?
What are you expecting to hear, what would you do as leader of the opposition with an electorate who are split?
Corbyn is doing well by letting them get on with it. If Labour were running it they would have the same impossible job. Go for the sensible option and then give up your power as everyone votes for the other party for not doing what they wanted (leavers and remainers)
I'd like to point out a metaphor fail. It isn't a cliff edge brexit we are heading for but a mudflat brexit. The tide has been coming in for two years and next March will be the first time a lot of people realise that we are stranded. Then we are in for the fighting as the people who got us into the mess try to absolve themselves. After a protracted period of thrashing around, ingesting mud and brackish water, gasping and vomiting, we will just realise at the very end what we have done to ourselves.
I'm on hols at the moment. We are in the Algarve, hardly a hotbed of intellectual excellence, granted, but I think the experience of the flight out and the clientele is relevant. Presumably these people all hold down jobs.
Example one. A 20-30 year old trying to work out the saving of 20% on a £50 watch. "Is it five"?
Example two. Lad and his girlfriend. He is half cut by the end of the flight. They were last on the bus with us on the transfer. He was totally shitfaced within 45 minutes as he had presumably polished off a load of vodka on the bus. Nice start to a holiday.
Example three. Mr Compo. Claims a stewardess hit his knee with a trolley. Spends the rest of the flight wincing every time s stewardess comes near. Insisting on ice packs and getting a form to fill in. I've no doubt he has done this before and is just after 10% off his next holiday. His missus was sat across the aisle and didn't mutter a word.
We've also be warned to avoid one street in the town in the evening with the kids because of 'drunk people'. Almost certainly brits.
This is what we are 'going out to market' with. We are screwed.
Europeans I have spoken to just smile at our stupidity and a few have bemoaned an education system that leaves so many people so utterly unaware of the world around them.
Sat at a nice wine bar in girona last night fuming listening to a loud conversation behind me. Spanish bloke in good English discussing brexit with loud brits. She espoused how much she loves girona but voted out of Europe Spanish bloke asked lots of questions because he obviously couldn't understand why. Her go to answer was "I don't care" no discussion, no thought, no politely embarrassed murmur just "I don't care".
We are well and truly ****ed. I'll add she seemed an intelligent young woman and fairly well off. The sort of person that would be all for striding forward but, well, she just doesn't care.
So we will hear the first official verdict from the EU today on the Chequers proposal.
Sat at a nice wine bar in girona last night fuming listening to a loud conversation behind me. Spanish bloke in good English discussing brexit with loud brits. She espoused how much she loves girona but voted out of Europe Spanish bloke asked lots of questions because he obviously couldn’t understand why. Her go to answer was “I don’t care” no discussion, no thought, no politely embarrassed murmur just “I don’t care”.
We are well and truly ****. I’ll add she seemed an intelligent young woman and fairly well off. The sort of person that would be all for striding forward but, well, she just doesn’t care.
Embarrassing, plain and simple. I'll bet the Spanish guy was just asking if she had a good reason. But, hey, he's a dastardly foreigner (In her mind) trying to make her look stupid. Something it sounds like she needs no help with. Despair has been my prevalent emotion over the last two years.
'Nul points'
It's ok we've sent frothing Raab over there.
Massive bellend that he is & still selling the unicorns, it's gotta be better than permanently befuddled Davis
I know of one or two colleagues who voted to leave.
One of them actually told me "Yes I voted leave but I'm not all that bothered as I'm going to retire in Spain in a few years"
WTAF!
This is a well paid professional working for a large multinational. It just beggars belief how shallow or non-existent the thinking has been.
What are you expecting to hear
That Labour supports staying in the Single Market and Customs Union… i.e. that they have a plan that can be implemented, where the government do not. Additionally, that they will call for a referendum for "US" to choose between that deal and membership. I think that referendum could be won by the "outer ring" proposal, and we'd still leave. The alternative is, however we Leave, it will be sold as being "not the Brexit people voted for"… so it has to go back to the people. Most Labour supporters would support this clear two step approach… and so would many others, when it is compared to what the Tory/ERG/DUP/Hoey types are pushing on us.
Tory/ERG/DUP/Hoey types are pushing on us.
This is how it will happen.
There will be no deal.
In the years between leaving the EU and the next GE the rush will be on to completely tie us to the USA in attempt to set our future path in stone regardless of who wins the next GE.
You only need to look back a few years to see what the likes of David Davis, Liam fox were doing and who with, they were attending conferences in the US where the only talking point was how they could wrench the UK away from the EU and tie it to the US.
The type of conservatism you are seeing from Johnson, and Mogg etc, is not the British version, its the US version. The use of language, Johnson in his resignation letter calling us a Colony, or Davis recently blaming the French, or the Irish should shut their gobs over the border is all very deliberate. Some would say this is the leavers trying to absolve themselves of them blame for the coming sh*t storm, but it was always part of their plan.
Remember when people believed when the leavers said leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the SM or CU? I'm sure many people voted to leave on this premise, well now we see it wasn't true. All part of the plan.
Even this week when the Tories once again broke parliamentary conventions to achieve their goal of getting the country over the brexit line with no deal. The country has shifted to the right by a very long way, its not fascism as many are calling it, but we are on our way, and all it takes it 40% of the electorate to continue voting this way to achieve everything we are witnessing here.
And what of this glorious brexit?
Millions of jobs lost? Irrelevant.
Lower standards of living? Irrelevant.
NHS sucked up by US private health care companies? Excellent.
The intention was always to destroy it and rebuild it in their image. With quite a bit of disaster capitalism along the way.
Oh, I suppose I had better mention Corbyn and militan...I mean momentum, you ain't got a chance.
Have you heard May's speech?
Backstop is now dead.
Back to square one.
Nothing to show for last 2 years.
That Labour supports staying in the Single Market and Customs Union… i.e. that they have a plan that can be implemented, where the government do not.
Why would they support that though? When they are meant to be elected representatives of people who voted leave?
I'm playing devil's advocate here but tbh it's a fair question isn't it?
Because if you oppose people who do not have a workable plan, then you need to have a workable plan, or you are just expelling hot air, not showing you can do a better job.
SM&CU in an EEA+ manner means we are no longer members of the EU and allows future campaigns/politicians to push for cutting/replacing trade ties, if they wish. People have not voted yet to cut those trading ties, only the political ties. Any working replacement trading arrangement has yet to be spelt out, or agreed, within any party, or supported by any vote, by anyone.
Brexit is dead, just no-one realises yet. I'm still not sure how it's going to end, but I'm sure it will end. Politics can't trump reality.
Because if you oppose people who do not have a workable plan, then you need to have a workable plan, or you are just expelling hot air
No, you need to convince the public you have a workable plan. That's not the same as having one... Hot air isn't a problem in electoral terms as long as it's hot air people like.
And what happens to the UK when your bluff is called?
Just bullshit some more, isn't that standard practice?
I'm hoping that the end of that particular line is being reached though. But the problem is that leavers are always going to blame the EU if it goes tits up, and remainers are going to blame the government. That's confirmation bias, and it's human nature.
Brexit is dead, just no-one realises yet.
Reading the papers today, some of them seem convinced that it's not dead and that various EU countries are preparing for the UK to simply crash out with no deal.
Genuinely though - what happens? There's a realistaion that what is happening is criminal negligence of the highest order and they back down or they drive the bus off the edge and screw the consequences?