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how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
It's pretty miserable being poor. Voting to make yourself even more poor doesn't exactly help matters
wait a minute did the EU close down the mills?
those cotton embargoing bastards!!!
Ninfan talking absolute grade A dog poop, please show us a single bit of evidence that UK manufacturing has declined because of EU membership?
Manufacturing output in real terms has been pretty good since we joined the EU (since 2008 not so much), productivity growth better than service sector even, but of course jobs have declined, its almost as if technology has completely changed the industry! (well that & st maggie turning us into a service economy)
https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/7617/economics/economic-growth-during-great-moderation/
In a way Ninfan highlights brilliantly the ignorance of brexiters, yearning to turn back the clock to a fantasy version of the world that can never exist again
& ironically its the manufacturers based in the former mill towns warning that they will be less competitive if we leave.
round of applause for ninny!
Do you earn more than, or less than, the median wage?
African or European?
and who loves Brexit and why?
[url= https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1769/43393124511_172dab5452_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1769/43393124511_172dab5452_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/297v78a ]IMG_1446[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikewsmith/ ]Mike Smith[/url], on Flickr
You are using coconuts
I know plenty of people on less than median wage, but they still go on foreign holidays. Often but not always Majorca or somewhere along those lines.
But Ninfan's lost his argument anyway that's why he can't answer my questions.
Do you earn more than, or less than, the median wage?
Median and mean are poor measures there is a reason why modal wages are not published...
Also unless the wage is adjusted for location and living costs the comparison is even more pointless....
According to Twitter the Govt is putting in a motion to have summer recess early!
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1018944366281416705
According to Twitter the Govt is putting in a motion to have summer recess early!
Well its not like there is a lot on and what there is isnt very important.
It will allow them all to head down to Blackpool for their hols to see ninfan and those other working class types from the northern mill towns.
ninfans constant drivel about working class areas voting leave is shown up in the fact that EVERY constituency in Scotland voted remain. The coal field towns in Midlothian, Fife and Ayrshire, as well as former steel producing areas of Lanarkshire, or the largely declined microchip manufacturing region of West Lothian, or the ship yards of Govan are hardly havens of bourgeoisie, caramel latte sipping ''Loads a money!'' decadence.
There are a lot of people for whom 2 weeks in Blackpool is their holiday. I stopped there briefly last summer with the family for the first time since I was a kid.and had a great time. Also the beach was spotless. I wonder how that was?
Not all working class areas in England voted leave. Some learnt a long time ago to see past the lies of the Murdoch press.
So Cougar you’re unwilling to compromise
I'm perfectly willing to compromise, as I explained in the rest of my post. We presumably differ on the definition of "compromise."
What the * has Provence got to do with it? Going abroad is a middle class thing is it?
Working class people go on * holiday too you ****.
You know you've crossed a line when "why can't we all just be lovely and respectful to each other and not be dicks" Molgrips makes this sort of post. It's like the mild-mannered geography teacher suddenly hurling a blackboard eraser at your head.
Its already become more democratic.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this please, @ninfan? How has it become more democratic? I don't follow.
Crystal ball time…
May signs an exit deal after Xmas, which includes transition period, and a signed off Ireland back stop… using brinkmanship to get it through her party. The deal says that the future arrangement will either be a third country FTA, with carve outs for NI, or the whole of the UK operating in the SM. Neither is ruled out. Customs can kicked down the road, apart from Ireland backstop, which in itself is just a can kicking wheeze anyway. After we exit EU, and enter transition period, where we no longer have a seat at EU, no way back, and still have no agreement on future with it, the real shit starts to hit the fan… multiple leadship contests… a general election… a referendum to choose between two future relationships, neither of which even a significant minority of people feel they can support… all while the "selling out of the working man" narrative gets ramped up more and more, despite the UK no longer being a member of the EU.
Telll me I'm wrong.
Interesting that an argument about the destruction of manufacturing in the North rears its head here.
I need to remind some people on here that it was the will of a certain Mrs Thatcher that got that ball rolling and it was the best part of 40 years ago.
Thing is lots of us working class northern types fought very hard against Mrs Thatcher but we lost and more than that we were "ethnically cleansed - politically" as succesive governments including that **** Tony Blair said that greed was good.
So here we are the working poor (on less than median wage) blaming all their woes on the EU and support the very ****s who laud Thatcher.
I am the epitomy of Northern Working class but i am not stupid enough to take the Rees Moggs at face value.
I have not been provided with any explanation of how Brexit will benefit the piss poor of this country.
The people that have engineered this, would not piss on the working class if they were on fire, they would warm their hands.
Absolutely. And it's not the only example- scottish fishermen is another. A tory government decided to shaft them in order to support english nearshore fishermen that they thought were more likely to vote tory. They couldn't even be bothered to do much to reduce the impact. And yet people blame the EU for the deal made by the UK, and put themselves on the same side as the exact sort of arseholes that shafted them in the first place and say Take Back Control so that it can be done again.
when people put a cross next to 'do you want to leave the EU? - yes' box means they want to leave the EU; just because it's a colossally, monumentally stupid idea, you have to respect the result and leave the EU.
it was a binary question with a binary outcome.
what a shitshow.
Kelvin
May signs an exit deal after Xmas, which includes transition period, and a signed off Ireland back stop… using brinkmanship to get it through her party.
I think May has just shown that she doesn't do brinkmanship. So I'm not sure where that leaves us - heading for a hard "no deal" Brexit almost certainly.
I'm slowly trying to move all my pensions and savings out of anything UK based.
Another minister goes and May gives more towards hard Brexit.
And today she might have to give to the other side.
This is becoming a proper mess ?!
This is becoming a proper mess ?!
Becoming?
France bought 17 acres of land at Calais & 100s of new staff for customs checks.
May folding to the ERG nutters & then shutting parliament 4 days early, just shows that the grown ups no longer in charge
Where is THM when you need some reassurance that it's all going swimmingly?
Its total and utter chaos! But then when you look at the lunatics who are presently holding May (and by proxy, the rest of us) to ransom, its hardly a surprise, is it?
They're free-market fundamentalists. Zealots! They're the parliamentary equivalent of the most hardline ISIS suicide bomber. Creationists absolutely convinced that their vision is correct, despite all evidence to the contrary
There is no reasoning with these people. There is nothing at all that is too important to be sacrificed at the alter of their unquestioning and totally irrational belief.
Jobs? The stability of a continent? Business? A nations economy? The Union? The peace in Northern Ireland?
All totally expendable!
The only positive I can see in yesterdays parliamentary anarchy is that the Remainers can now see the true extent of the damage these headbangers are prepared to inflict on us all. Anna Sourby was bang on in her rant at them yesterday, and I'm sure vocalised what a lot of us think of them.
I hope this is a sign that they're now going to finally grow a pair and take them on at their own game. That more rational people (who are in a parliamentary majority) start to stand up and make their voices heard too. They've allowed themselves to be cowed for too long by the RW press and their Will of the People bollocks
Thie is nuts, abasaloutely nuts. It won't just be food we'll be short on, but cold chain medicines as well - as QPs will invariably end up having to bin batches due to irregularities in transport.
Politicians don't get ut do they, because PPE from Oxford doesn't qualify you to make decisions about logistics.
Redundancy notice covering letter templates
"You voted for this so * off and sign on"
"You didn't vote for this * off and sign on"
And what will happen in Calais is EU money to build infrastructures and employ people which will benefit the area in the long term whilst Dover and the UK loose out.
Calais will have a big old port and reside in a country with trade deals with lots of places (including Japan now I hear).
Dover will have a big old port and resides in a country which has very few trade deals but is intending to do some over the next few years.
Now both those ports will need investment to move from cross channel ferry handling to long distance freight, but one will have the bonus of EU investment.
I wonder which will do better. Could be either, but if I were a betting man I wouldn’t back Dover.
All this is of course at the margins, no one is saying there’ll never be another cross channel ferry, but margins and emphasis matter.
Biggest free trade deals between Europe and Japan today.
No wonder the Japanese car manufacturers are worried of a hard Brexit.
I thought the Japanese / Toyota signed a deal the week after Brexit or something.
I imagine it says "to save you looking like a useless bunch of idiots, we'll stay in the UK but we're not paying any additional taxes that arise, you're paying that".
Japanese car manufacturers will now find it much easier to migrate new models to the EU and avoid all tariffs for the EU market.
Sunderland has a problem.
And Derby I suspect.
The European Union and Japan concluded negotiations on a free trade deal that will remove EU tariffs of 10 percent on imported Japanese cars and the 3 percent rate typically applied to car parts.
So those people who keep referring to the third referendum - are you suggesting that the GE was equivalent to a referendum?
We had a referendum in the 70s to see if we wanted to stay in the common market.
I think May has just shown that she doesn’t do brinkmanship. So I’m not sure where that leaves us – heading for a hard “no deal” Brexit almost certainly.
Heading for government falling apart. The soft brexit/remain MPs are getting a backbone and starting to rebel. They know that they can't trust anything the PM says because she won't stand up to Rees-Mogg and co. That's twice now she's agreed something and then done a u-turn.
She's shown she can be bullied, so the remainers / 'soft' brexiteers have the choice - join in with their own threats to stop her caving in further to the hardliners, or stand and watch as bit by bit JRM and Little Bo **** get their way.
Either way, I suspect that time is nearly up.
The best bit with all this is we still haven't heard what the EU think of the Chequers deal, my guess is their response will be a simple and emphatic 'Non'.
I think we're down to two options really, No Deal Brexit or stay in. I think the ship for a deal good for both parties has long since sailed (or been comprehensible torpedoed by JRM and BOJO as part of their scorched earth approach).
Redundancy notice covering letter templates
“You voted for this so * off and sign on”
“You didn’t vote for this * off and sign on”
There red will be no signing on as there will be no money left to pay out... zero hours contracts for everyone
I think we’re down to two options really, No Deal Brexit or stay in
There is a third option - kick the can down the road (as if!) and extend the A50 deadline. Given the choice between the no deal scenario and ongoing negotiation (and thereby UK membership) I reckon the 27 would go for the extension. If we're facing a no deal exit then deferring the cliff edge is the last resort of the non-hardline majority, but it'd probably be political suicide for May and solves none of the issues that have stopped meaningful progress over the last 2 years. We'd possibly end up with a split of the Tory party, a Momentum power grab in Labour, a general election and a completely hung/paralysed parliament - good eh.
I reckon the 27 would go for the extension.
How long would we need to resolve the competing desires of a population split roughly 50:50 to completely opposite views who are getting more entrenched?
How much money, time and effort are they going to waste to continue the charade? Also if it drags on a bit more and there is a GE in the UK or elections for the main players in the EU the mess gets worse. It is possible that you could get election campaigns in the EU based on forcing a no deal... or even in the UK...
i think they they just want something down on paper to start the transition. Once that starts it can be refined
Still think May will be kept in 'till after we've "left", and only after we've left will the true nature of our future relationship with EU be decided, and only then after multiple leadership battles, a general election, and another referendum. Years of chaos ahead… but it won't stop, or delay us leaving*.
Obviously, I hope that I'm wrong.
[ *by leaving, I mean no longer being members … we might well never leave the SM & CU, and if we do, it'll be long after May has gone ]
trouble is looking at the length of time big IT projects take the government to implemenet that something thats put in place for the transition, may well overrun by so long that the necessary implementation phase wont be over before another GE brings in a totally different plan... throwing business into limbo again.
The brexiters obviously think that the EU will blink at the last minute.
If it does go to a no deal will Toyota/Nissan etc sue the government for breaking Mays pledge she made at the start?
either way I get the feeling that its going to get to the stage of legal disputes
i think they they just want something down on paper to start the transition. Once that starts it can be refined
This.
As long as we sign the Ireland back stop in blood, we'll go into transition with no future relationship clearly spelt out. From the EU side, they then hold ALL the cards (rather than most of the cards).
throwing business into limbo again.
Business will never get "clarity" now, at least not in the next five years, unless Brexit is cancelled. That is becoming clear to all.
For whatever reason the Tory party decided to go this route alone. If May had wanted to she could have included brexiteers or remainers from all parties. Labour could not abstain with skin in the game and would be forced to declare their position...
She would then not be held up by the DUP to do what is probably required and have a border in the Irish Sea.
You never know maybe the Queen will step in a tell them to form a national government to try and work together to fix this epic fail 1930s style...
Anyone know when the vote on the Customs Union Amendment is? This would mean we stay/join in a customs union if no deal reached.
I wonder if Mogg has in fact caused this. Tory Remainers have realised playing nice doesn't work..
The Labour one was defeated. The Tory rebel one expected about 5pm. That'll be defeated as well… Labour rebels will outnumber Tory ones.
Aren’t all these votes and debates the wrong way round?
Should we not have discussed a wide range of options with the EU and then be voting on which one to fully hash out?
Or is all this fuss just to clarify our starting position?
at the moment it feels like Parliament think that they are negotiating but have failed to invite half the party... wasted effort, money and noise to just stand still ffs
Should we not have discussed a wide range of options with the EU and then voted in a referendum on the best one or two versus staying in?
That sounds very sensible.
Or at least picked one before triggering A50.
tick
tock
Should we not have discussed a wide range of options with the EU and then voted in a referendum on the best one or two versus staying in?
That sounds very sensible.
Burn the heretic.
Should we not have discussed a wide range of options with the EU
We did. Unfortunately they mostly involved unicorns and cake.
Labour backing union amendment with result about 6.30. Looks close.
If the bill is defeated/not approved does this mean it gets kicked back and re drafted for another vote?
Then it gets voted on later/next week if parliament is still in session? What if it is rejected and then the parliament rise? Would there then be no mandate for any negotiations until September?
This is the Commons not the Lords. If it wins, it become law.
(I'm quite happy for someone who understands it better to correct me).
As I understand it this is the mandate/position for the negotiations.
Ok, if it is approved it is law. What happens if it is rejected?
Actually after more reading it seems it will either be amended or accepted with each section/ amendment voted on
so either way something will come out today
Interesting line of commentary on Radio 4 PM this evening.
There are clear majorities in the Commons against various options but no clear majority in favour of any particular option. This raises the possibility that Parliament will simply not be able to agree a Brexit plan leaving the only option as putting the matter to the people in another referendum.
Reporter commenting that a second referendum now more likely than ever before in the face of a Parliament that simply cannot agree on how the UK is to leave the EU.
Oh the delicious irony of JRM forcing a second referendum through his wrecking tactics
<span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">Oh the delicious irony of JRM forcing a second referendum through his wrecking tactics</span>
But there's no guarantee that 'remain as we are in the EU' will be on the ballot. It'll be a choice between a s**t deal, or no deal. And the Brexiteers seem to want 'no deal'.
New clause on remaining in the EU medicines agency has been approved by parliament
Anna Sourby was bang on in her rant at them yesterday, and I’m sure vocalised what a lot of us think of them.
Soubry has generally voted against EU membership and other related issues. I don't get her vocal attitude towards it all because it's not in keeping with he record in Parliament.
Generally.
"There are clear majorities in the Commons against various options but no clear majority in favour of any particular option. This raises the possibility that Parliament will simply not be able to agree a Brexit plan"
Yup. And what's quite interesting is that the brexiteers chief strategy- that the vote to leave is 100% a vote for exactly whatever precise brexit that particular brexiteer wants- actually makes it harder for them to compromise on anything.
Bugger! Lost the amendment 🙁
Gutless mp's. Roll over to the nutters, but fight as much as possible against a sensible option
If the customs union amendment had gone through all anyone needed to do was felt until jan then it was a customs union.
it does not eliminate it from the options but it does make it more likely to be more of an 11th hour type thing. IMO
Apparently 4 Labour MPs voted with the government. Wonder who they were?
At a guess Hoey & Field will be 2 of them
Soubry has generally voted against EU membership and other related issues. I don’t get her vocal attitude towards it all because it’s not in keeping with he record in Parliament.
Generally.
You can vote against something, but when faced with an even worse option....
Looks like a few brexiteers are coming out and saying they want nothing to do with what is happening.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">grahamt1980
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Gutless mp’s. Roll over to the nutters, but fight as much as possible against a sensible option
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ouch, looks like the tories left no dirty trick unplayed
https://twitter.com/thomasbrake/status/1019305314032726017
Vince Cable & Tim Fallon missed the vote too !
Vince Cable & Tim Fallon missed the vote too !
Wasnt that yesterdays or are they even more ****ing useless than expected?
The Maybot really is showing her true colours. I would complain to my MP but he is a ****ing dishonest shitebag of the finest tory kind.
was it yesterday, sorry, came up on a feed saying today
Hmmm Brandon. Just as Vote Leave is referred to the police for breaking the rules, you break a gentleman’s agreement.
It’s almost like you’re trying to establish a pattern of behaviour...
I have decided that i shall hunt this ****er down and have a chat..........
Spineless little ****....
So, our parliament currently ratifies trade deals…
Our parliament just voted against ratifying future trade deals…
#democracy
https://twitter.com/jim_cornelius/status/1019332418044604417
Take back control is the slogan that will make the uk gag for decades to come…
big relief for pharma, but EMA is subject to ECJ, isnt that a red line or sumfink?
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1019345136055136256
ouch, looks like the tories left no dirty trick unplayed
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1019332554837643265