Forum menu
but does anyone think that the skull cracking at Chequers and the subsequent white paper would have been better done near the start of the process rather than close the end?
we couldn't show our hand to the EU (even though they new exactly what we wanted from the start and it was really to stop the brexit wing of the tory party from going apoplectic). Every thing going on in government at the moment is for the benefit of the conservative party everybody else just **** rigjht off!
In maintains the status quo
That's the thing. It doesn't have to mean that at all. Remain could (and should) equate to "reform" rather than "do nothing."
That's the truly mad thing mike. Davis has been doing something in his meetings with the EU for 18 months. He then eventually finds out his own sides position, he doesn't like it at walks. What has he been doing?
I imagine him dressed up as some sort of court jester in Brussels, with pointy shoes with bells on, and a pointy hat for Michel Barnier to play hoopla on. (A bit like the scene with Francis Drake in Queenies court in Blackadder II.)
That’s the thing. It doesn’t have to mean that at all. Remain could (and should) equate to “reform” rather than “do nothing.”
What I wanted to see was a remain being an all in vote and commitments for our MEP's to turn up at least...
What has he been doing?
3 square meals, nice hotel and some air miles?
That’s the thing. It doesn’t have to mean that at all. Remain could (and should) equate to “reform” rather than “do nothing.”
With MEPs like farage actively working against the interests of the UK... Not likely.
We need UK MEPs that are actually prepared to do thier jobs, you know maybe attend the odd meeting and parhaps make some arguments as opposed to doing nothing other than slag the EU off and wonder why no one is talking to you any more
So now the tory remainers are jumping on the 2nd referendum bandwagon along with the blairites. Much as I would love to reverse the decision, it's never going to happen. I have no idea why they think the result would be any different. But they want to compound the idiocy of giving the people a vote the first time round by giving them an opportunity to confirm it? Madness.
I have no idea why they think the result would be any different. But they want to compound the idiocy of giving the people a vote the first time round by giving them an opportunity to confirm it? Madness.
Well the last 2 years will have shed a few supporters, mostly through death and the rest may just realise it's not a protest vote.
edit:
meh, what Mike said, more succinctly.
The vast majority of the idiots who voted for it last time are still out there and I see little evidence they've changed their mind. The main thing that fuelled the original yes vote was the people sticking two fingers up to the politicians because they felt they weren't being listened to and a new vote will simply confirm this. It'd be the easiest campaign in history. All Farage, JRM, Johnson et al will need to do is say 'we told you so'.
The vast majority of the idiots who voted for it last time are still out there and I see little evidence they’ve changed their mind.
We don't need the vast majority to. Just about 2% ish.
I now fully support a second referendum. So should everyone else.
And if the idiots vote for a no deal brexit (they will), what then? I understand why some might think it's a good idea, to me though it just feels like playing russian roulette with the issue. What is required at this point in time is some dry, sober pragmatism from people who actually understand what's going on. You're not going to get that in another referendum.
Well after 2 years they can present their vision, perhaps they can register to have their option on the ballot
Remain
JRM Version
BoJo Version
Corbyn Version
May Version
Farage version
What is required at this point in time is some dry, sober pragmatism from people who actually understand what’s going on
Sadly though for some of those people who understand what is going on there is no interest in pragmatism.
Molgrips - I can see that point of view, but I didn’t support the last referendum and I would struggle to support another one.
A referendum is a divisive tool unless there is an overwhelming result. In our country at the moment it would simply increase divisions and tension.
Somebody died because of the nasty campaigning last time round, and I suspect it would be worse if we do it again.
Now to be fair Greening’s suggestion of a three way transferable vote might assist with that issue, but I’m not convinced.
What we need is for politicians to do what they’re paid to do and do the right thing for the country.
perhaps they can register to have their option on the ballot
Have most of them got a version?
A referendum is a divisive tool unless there is an overwhelming result.
It is, that's why the rules need to be set up. Qualified majority etc.
What is required at this point in time is some dry, sober pragmatism from people who actually understand what’s going on. You’re not going to get that in another referendum.
Yes but both parties already said they're going to blindly follow the result regardless, and a full U-turn is going to be tricky. They may be able to wriggle out of it by voting on 'the final deal'. But the problem is that even if the deal is rejected and the UK stays in, it'll still look like a temporary situation so confidence will be destroyed which won't help either.
If they abandoned it and committed to remaining for a generation, there'd be riots. The country's in a crisis situation that was totally invented by David Cameron for absoutely no reason. FFS.
Do you think that people who didn't vote last time would get off their arses now?
Hopefully now we have more knowledge of what leaving means they might be more inclined to do so.
I have friends who were abroad and couldn't vote who have returned with a now adult child.There's 3 more remain votes.
Then there's a least 5 leavers I know of that have died.
I think that leave shout the loudest but most people were perfectly happy the way we were.
More cloud cuckoo land bulshit from our former foreign secretary in todays Torygraph. Basically, if we all just believe, then everything will be absolutely brilliant
He obviously doesn't do irony when he spouted that we should “rediscover the spirit of dynamism of the Victorian age!"
Yes... but you'll probably be less enthusiastic about' the spirit of dynamism of the Victorian age' if you were about to die at the age of 23 in an industrial accident down a mine, or as canon fodder in another colonial excursion, or maybe just of hunger or typhoid in a workhouse
He really is a total ****ing cockwomble! It mystifies me that there are still people who haven't or won't see through his self-serving idiocy
There are 3.5 million British people elsewhere in Europe who didn't get a say last time, but would be amongst the most affected; would they be able to engineer themselves a vote this time? It would be drastically unfair otherwise (it was last time, but presumably nobody thought the country was mad enough to have to do anything about it).
If they could be included in the vote it would provide a massive swing to remaining.
Then there’s a least 5 leavers I know of that have died.
You don't reverse a 1.7 million vote margin by relying on people dying in two years. 20 years maybe, but not 2. The underlying reason for the yes vote has massively strengthened, not weakened. People have even less regard for politicians now than they did two years ago. Two years ago everyone thought they were a bunch of self-serving elitists, now they think they are a bunch of incompetent self-serving elitists who are trying to subvert democracy. They're not going to vote for a complicated, nuanced solution to an intractable problem, they're going to vote for the simplistic solution, which is to stick two fingers up to the people who tell them they're too stupid to understand and make their own decisions.
I read somewhere ( so that makes it a fact!) Leave would be a minority in 2020 due to people dying.
The underlying reason for the yes vote has massively strengthened, not weakened. People have even less regard for politicians now than they did two years ago.
Where are the polls suggesting that swing? UK polling gets a hammering internationally by not picking up trends/difference well enough and for GE not accounting for the FPTP well enough. What are the current numbers for Leave/Remain?
The vast majority of the idiots who voted for it last time are still out there and I see little evidence they’ve changed their mind.
Due to the voting demographic being heavily skewed by age, in a fair vote remain would surely win now just because of the number who have died off and others who have come of voting age? That's before we consider people changing their minds.
The main thing that fuelled the original yes vote was the people sticking two fingers up to the politicians because they felt they weren’t being listened to and a new vote will simply confirm this.
The main thing that fuelled the original yes vote was immigration. Everything else was secondary.
I now fully support a second referendum. So should everyone else.
Third referendum. And no, I don't support it. As I've said before, a) I don't believe that a referendum has a place in a parliamentary democracy, and b) I don't trust that it'll be held fairly. And if 'leave' wins again then it truly is game over.
However, that said I'm starting to think that another referendumb might be the only tangible way out of this mess. Now that all the lies have dissipated, the only reason being offered now for leaving the EU (besides the real one, which is that a bunch of rich people stand to become even richer) is that it's "the will of the people." If we can dispel that notion then brexit is dead.
Where are the polls suggesting that swing?
YouGov (IIRC) has showed a consistent nominal majority for leave up until about this time last year, and has shown a consistent nominal majority for remain ever since then.
A second referendum would only be worthwhile if both sides were somehow restrained from lying out of their arses.
The campaign period should be six or so televised debates with simple titles like 'NHS', 'Immigration', 'Jobs', 'Food' etc. and those debating can only use 'evidence' and statements that has been submitted beforehand and proved as NOT BULLSHIT!
Anything they bring up during the debate which wasn't pre-approved needs to be instantly called up and checked/vetted etc. with some sort of three strikes and you're out type arrangement so people can see whose arguments are actually valid and whose are just nonsense.
The fact that no politician in Britain would sign up to having their statements independently verified on live TV would be very telling...
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/07/09/leave-voting-conservative-party-members-are-starti/
That is probably the more significant stat at the moment, Leave loving tories are leaving May
Aren't there only actually 16 Tory party members left alive? And they've been senile for years, so just sit smelling of wee in Eastbourne telling everyone they used to come here when it was all fields, and moaning about the number of darkies around nowadays?
Speaking of which, latest immigration figures show that the drop in EU migration has just been replaced with migration from non-EU countries. So people who are ... you know..... the wrong colour?
I wonder how that news will be received by the UKIP racists?
Tracking support for leaving the E.U. from 2013 ish when it was around 62% to today when it’s around 47% is interesting.
It bounces around a fair bit but you could do a fairly good linear regression for the data set.
It has to be now for the Brexies, because they are increasingly part of the past.
They cannot afford to miss their chance.
The reason for a second referendum is due to the politicians being too weak two years ago to stand up and reform and are still the same trying to push the responsiblity to other people
There are 3.5 million British people elsewhere in Europe who didn’t get a say last time, but would be amongst the most affected; would they be able to engineer themselves a vote this time? It would be drastically unfair otherwise (it was last time, but presumably nobody thought the country was mad enough to have to do anything about it).
If they could be included in the vote it would provide a massive swing to remaining.
i know people who live in Spain who voted leave. More than a few sadly.
This is not a vote about the economy, jobs etc. but an abstract concept of being able to stand independent free of the rest of the world like in a poor quality swashbuckling made for TV movie. If anything the failure of our politicians has made people want this more
Around 1% of the population die every year. Just to be sure, I’m all for another referendum in about 9 months time 😏
Also, it doesn’t have to be a binary referendum. The reality is so much more nuanced. Also also; rules should be predetermined as to majority required, as they should have been last time. Ridiculous that a decision so close to the wire as that should dictate such a tumultuous course of action. Should have been; too close to call = status quo.
The sky isn't falling on many people, indeed there has hardly been a significant change for many, so why would they think anything "bad" might happen if "we" Brexit even by the most brutal way possible?
The hard Brexiters know this and the faster they can get "negotiations" to collapse and/or end, the better for them.
If May drags out the talks long enough for headline grabbing financial issue to occur, a 3rd ref may happen.
Perhaps, though, May is kind of hoping that as economic issue become apparent, those affected will actually not demand a 3rd ref but scatter, ineffectually, between between Labour, Liberal and UKIP? (Other political parties may be available in your area- Check your local subway wall.)
All I know is it's been a long time since a referendum or GE and I'm goin' cold turkey without me regular hit of suffrage.
Now that all the lies have dissipated
Have they? Even if that were true it goes both ways. The nutters will say the world didn't fall in as was predicted, they'll point to increases in the stockmarket, they'll point to reduced immigration. Even though these things are spurious they'll say them anyway, and everyone will believe them. What will remain say? They'll say the same as they did last time, and the leavers will say they've already proved they were wrong. Then they'll say that they warned the establishment will try to reverse the people's decision, and they have been proved right. There's not a cat in hells chance of remain winning a new referendum.
There’s not a cat in hells chance of remain winning a new referendum.
I don’t think that’s true! Let’s vote on it 😉
A second referendum would only be worthwhile if both sides were somehow restrained from lying out of their arses.
Sadly that can't happen. Politicians don't deal in the facts, only soundbites. Seems like a good time to link to an article by Madeleine Albright.
She quotes a well known facsist:
“I will tell you what has carried me to the position I have reached. Our political problems appeared complicated. The people could make nothing of them… I…reduced them to the simplest terms. The masses realised this and followed me.”
they’ll point to reduced immigration
I thought immigration had increased, along with the additional costs to employers of having to rely on applicants from non-EEA countries, now that our neighbours are avoiding coming here due to our new found attitude to them.
May is caving into Mog.
I thought immigration had increased
It has overrall, but immigration from the EU has decreased so that's what they'll say and spin it as immigration as a whole. You think they will be worried about not getting their facts right?
Sadly that can’t happen.
This is true. No point asking people to vote where their votes can not take into account multiple contradictory Brexits. Any vote which is "Remain" or "any one of multiple contradictory visions of an alternative" will end the same as the last one. The politicians can paint a different picture for every group of possible Leave voters, and drill down and market to them in different ways… once again with "separate" campaign groups offering different visions via closed off Facebook ads and the like.
I'm up for a vote on "Remain or plan A", no matter what plan A is. I'm not up for "Remain or any of plans A-Z". What would be the point?
For what it's worth, I think there "might" be a plan A that would get a big win against Remain… but only the prospect of having the public vote on it will bring it about… leave it to the squabbling politicians and they'll end up with a plan that the public would never back…
Mooman -
The whole remain anxiety is built on being ignorant and believing whatever you read.
He might be (inadvertently) partially right here. I think remainers are ignorant. Brexiteers are ignorant too. Infact, everybody is ignorant!
We are ignorant because brexit has never happened before, we are ignorant because there is no plan, we are ignorant because nobody seems to have a clue what they are doing and while those in favour of brexit may think that it will lead to rainbows and unicorns, i suspect that the lack or planning and (again) ignorance being displayed may mean we just end up with a cluster****. I guess that makes me a remoaner.
May is caving into Mog
That's as much her clinging to power as anything.
We keep hearing about the 1922 committee, but nothing ever seems to come of it.
The battle appears to be as much about who gets control of the Tory party as the EU.
It won't be another referendum but a G.E that solves* Brexit. May goes, Bojo or other in and then:
Bojo hard vs
Corbyn soft vs
Cable stay
*unlikely
@ctk; so a LibLab coalition then? Not the worst case scenario in fairness.
Surely there's no "soft brexit" that makes any sense whatsoever? If we're going to accept FoM we might as well stay in the EU. What do we gain?
What do we gain from any of it? vs what we lose?
The harder the Brexit, the more of our current benefits we lose, and the more hypothetical benefits we *might* gain according to a load of people I really don't trust in the least.
Surely there’s no “soft brexit” that makes any sense whatsoever? If we’re going to accept FoM we might as well stay in the EU. What do we gain?
I said this a couple of pages back. It's the "least worst" brexit option and looks at first glance like it might be a reasonable compromise, but it pleases literally no-one. The remainers don't want it and the leavers don't want it either. It achieves, as you allude to, absolutely nothing.
Yes but thats the point it has to be a compromise- the vote was 52-48.
I've just seen some mealy-mouthed Conservative spokesman, 'Bernard Jenkins' apparently, say that the changes made to the Chequers Brexit Agreement have not changed the Chequers Brexit Agreement.
For their 52% of the vote the Brexiteers get to leave the EU, for their 48% of the vote the remainers get a soft Brexit.
So we all get ****ed, but gently. Remind me why we are supposed to be doing this again?
It's a "cut the child in half, and give each parent half each" type of compromise. And then expect both parents to accept your wisdom.
So we all get ****, but gently
Not all of us. Some will make a pretty penny out of it.
Someone needs to put in an amendment to screw over Rees-Moggs business side step to Dublin and Lamont French residency (say MP salary needs to remain in UK or similar) amongst others.
And it isn't a "soft Brexit", nothing like it. But people suspect that it's something that will be modified towards that when negotiations get going. I think it's more likely to go nowhere.
Once again, returning from a trip to Europe, I'm reminded how utterly bonkers it is that we are leaving. Perhaps the remain campaign should have just paid for trips for all to some random part of Europe as a campaign tool....
The people closest to me that voted Leave have a house in France that they've visited several times a year for 40+ years. Plenty of regular visitors to other EU countries that are convinced we're better off out.
Yes but thats the point it has to be a compromise- the vote was 52-48.
a) It doesn't have to be anything of the sort, it was an advisory referendum.
b) It's not a compromise at all, as @kelvin eloquently explained it a few posts back.
c) The "compromise" here, as I've said multiple times, is to address the concerns of those who voted leave. The #1 reason for voting leave was our immigration policy, we can shore that up without leaving the EU. Reform, not remain.
Not all of us. Some will make a pretty penny out of it.
It's not even that that's their main motivation. Just because the Brexiteers won't vocalise a coherent vision, don't be fooled into thinking they don't have one. They do. They always have. But its unlikely many people would vote for it. This they know full well. Just look at the people who we're talking about here, and look at their general opinions on pretty much anything.
They're all free-market fundamentalist zeaolts
They want to turn the UK into a sweatshop/tax haven economy, using freedom from the EU to tear up workers rights, environmental controls, slash tax for corporations and the rich, dismantle the welfare state, and privatise everything in sight, but most of all the NHS.
They're quite coy about saying this publically, but be in no doubt what the long term goal is. The fact that they got the working classes, who are going to be absolutely ****ed over if they get their way, is one of the greatest political deceptions ever pulled
ION, Robert Peston earlier today:
"So as I suggested earlier looked likely to happen, Theresa May seems to have capitulated and accepted all the rebel Brexiter ERG amendments to the Customs Bill.
Or at least that is what well-placed sources tell me.
If so, Theresa May has "swallowed something designed [by the ERG] to be indigestible" - and has thus shown herself to have become their hostage.
Her Chequers Brexit deal seems to be history only days after the ink on its associated white paper has dried: it is difficult to see the EU agreeing to levy the UK's tariffs, as the ERG amendment demands; and absent that implausible agreement from the EU, there is no longer a credible customs plan that would keep open the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic (or at least not one that the EU would recognise).
This implies the UK no longer has a credible plan for its future trading relationship with the EU.
Which feels like crisis territory. And it's only Monday."
The people closest to me that voted Leave have a house in France that they’ve visited several times a year for 40+ years.
I know now similar people in Spain who did the same. The expectations are that they get to keep everything they already have but also get more.
there is never any mention of sacrifice in the leave campaign. This is why a second referendum would turn out the same. The options are be a rule taker (sacrifice) or be a world leader in WTO...
There have been no consequences as the event has not happened. All these aircraft and car manufacturers need to do is make their parts in the UK then there is no customs issue. Simple jobs all round. The stock markets are up but these mean nothing to people in general.
I do like the idea of all MPs being required to onshore not just their salary but all of their money and investments...
That's the "they need us more than we need them mentally" they think we can still do what we like while stopping everyone else doing similar.
So Cougar you're unwilling to compromise nor are the RW media backed hard Brexit brigade. I wonder who will win?
Just to be clear Idont see the Chequers paper as a soft Brexit.
So Cougar you’re unwilling to compromise nor are the RW media backed hard Brexit brigade. I wonder who will win?
The RW media have already won to a large extent. All they need is no workable deal to be offered and they can blame the EU
the time for compromise and reform was after the referendum and then no article 50.
No politicians will stand up and say this is madness we need to stop and take a step back. It has gone too far
There was never impetus for a plan or a deal so there is none.
Make no mistake the RW papers will blame the EU for not accepting the deal or giving us options. The LW papers will blame incompetent ministers. Ministers will resign and that revenue will disappear but the EU will remain as a focus for hate... at some point remainers will start hating the EU as it reminds them of what they lost...
at some point remainers will start hating the EU as it reminds them of what they lost
I know where my hate is going to be directed, and it isn't the EU. It's at the lying, scheming, self-serving, mendacious bastards who got us this far.
I'd happily serve time to be left alone in a room with Boris Johnson
I know where my hate is going to be directed
How much of it should be directed towards the idiots who voted for it? I'm about as leftwing as they come but I really struggle to have much sympathy for the white working class who have allowed their ignorant prejudices to override their own interests.
How much of it should be directed towards the idiots who voted for it? I’m about as leftwing as they come but I really struggle to have much sympathy for the white working class who have allowed their ignorant prejudices to override their own interests.
Yessir massah
how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
Is that what you think has happened here?
You think that somehow, post-Brexit, the country's going to become more left wing and egalitarian? Really?
how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
and how is it going to get better?
How much of it should be directed towards the idiots who voted for it?
I have to admit when I see people in Cornwall and Wales, in particular, saying they hope they will keep being handed bundles of cash and getting worried it wont happen my sympathy levels are rather low.
I just hope they dont fall for the lies again and this time hold the right set of elites to blame. Although admittedly most of them would be hard to find since they are busy off shoring everything.
You think that somehow, post-Brexit, the country’s going to become more left wing and egalitarian? Really?
Its already become more democratic.
and how is it going to get better?
Lefties like you have spent years paying lip service to ‘inequality’ while not giving a flying **** about the factories and jobs lost to the EU. You think the people in northern mill towns really care if you find it more difficult to spend a week in Provence?
Its already become more democratic.
Lolz. Is your ideal democracy where the people get to vote on every major issue? You think that's going to be better? Answer this please.
But also answer the original question - do you think the UK is going to become more egalitarian and equal after Brexit? If so, why?
Lolz. Is your ideal democracy where the people get to vote on every major issue? You think that’s going to be better? Answer this please.
Nah Ninfan's ideal place is where the people who agree with him make sure that their point of view is protected from those who are not the same. The way he belittles opponents as lefties etc. tells you he doesn't like to be challenged or have his views confronted. It's a shame debate is now at the point of name calling rather than engaging over facts.
You think the people in northern mill towns really care if you find it more difficult to spend a week in Provence?
How much time do you spend in northern mill towns?
You think the people in northern mill towns really care if you find it more difficult to spend a week in Provence?
What the **** has Provence got to do with it? Going abroad is a middle class thing is it?
Working class people go on ****ing holiday too you ****.
Working class people go on * holiday too you *.
Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth.
liberty equality fraternity
How does Brexit deliver that to the people??
Erm I live in a northern Mill town and I enjoy my European holidays.
I also have to work for a living so that makes me a working class Northern mill Town dweller.
My parents emigrated to mainland Europe too, so it's nice to be able to flit over for a visit and it's nice for them to have reciprocal health care agreements in place so they don't have to pay crippling private insurance costs.
Maybe they'll get booted out of Spain and forced to repatriate into the UK.if all this nonsense goes ahead.
Ninfan once again demonstrates what a troll he is.
Ninfan once again demonstrates what a troll he is.
Once Rabb and Rees-Mogg get in charge and wipe out those tedious regulations which protect workers to some degree then he will be right. Be no time for holidays in the brave new world. A day trip to Blackpool or another seaside town was good enough for the commoners in Victorian times and so will be good enough again.
I live in a northern mill town. How are things going to improve for me and my friends ninfan? I’m especially thinking about the ones who work for a gym equipment importer who’s prices went up after brexit but who’s customers won’t stand the increase so the company is now working at a loss?
Mooman
Most of the remainers are not ignorant. Pretty much everything predicted by remain has happened. Leave still cannot come up with a coherent plan and all their prediction have been shown to be bogus
You think the people in northern mill towns really care if you find it more difficult to spend a week in Provence?
I live in a northern milltown, and grew up on a council estate in an ex-mining village in Newcastle, and yet I managed to see past the dog-whistle politics of the right and their media collaborators. Clearly I am a class traitor. If that's the case then I have no shame in being a bourgeoise bastard.
I live in a northern mill town. How are things going to improve for me and my friends ninfan?
Do you earn more than, or less than, the median wage?
how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
Voting themselves deeper into servitude doesn't help them.