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Remainers didn't damage anything - we just wanted to keep the ****ing status-quo, but it was the idiots who wanted an abject fantasy of sun-drenched uplands with blue passports, galloping herds of unicorns showered in pixie-dust and all the other stuff, but 2 years later haven't come-up with any measure of a workable solution that isn't damaging to a significant proportion of the population and wasn't founded on xenophobia and downright lies.
Brexit will not be the Brexit people voted for.
The only question voted on was should the UK leave the EU, you've no idea what "the people" voted for beyond that
To be fair, it won't be the brexit people voted for OR against, you can't dilute such a complex issue into a binary question.
Gina Miller says she met with the Norwegian government, who said: "We want what you've got". She says Norway does sit on committees but at the same time they are rule-takers.
But the nastiness of Brexit by those who were on the losing side has been sustained and I fear it has done lasting damage.
Remember Jo Cox?
Remember Citizens of nowhere?
Remember all those studies by the brexiteers proving that everything is going to be fine?
Now consider an advisory vote based on fraud, and lies. All really going to bring a country together.
the nastiness of Brexit by those who were on the losing side
Just give us a plan. Any plan. So long as it isn't built on unicorns and cake. Just give us a plan. Then I'll get behind it.
Yesterday had dissident republicans having pot shots at the bizzies. Now the UVF have stated that they will cause disorder over the coming days (it’s that time of year after all). It’s a delicate balance in NI - and it’s a time of year when that balance will be tested more than ever. This, if you’re a Brexit shitehawk, is just scaremongering.
I really don`t see them coming to what little senses they may have previously had.
The level of projection in the post but especially in this line is quite amazing.
I also like how you fail to notice the subtle difference between this and a general election.
Whats your personal idea of what brexit should be? Since lets face it there are probably as many ideas of what brexit should mean as people who voted for it.
There's been some very similar ranting (to moomans) by brexies on Twitter..
I think seeing Davis & Johnson humiliated has been a bit of blow,
Now their worst fears are coming true; turns out the Brexiters never had a plan, remoaning mrytle Maybot is ditching her red lines & the Brexiters just crumbled.
If they had a real plan they'd have ousted May & would be leading us to the sunlit uplands
Instead they are cowed & cowering behind May's petticoats (Gove Leadsome etc) or flounced off to the backbenches to gnash & wail like Johnson, Mogg & Davis.
The real tragedy is that there are genuine issues that the country faces, even if brexit had delivered all it promised, it wouldn't have fixed them.
Of course the reality is that it was always going to be a shitshow, and suck up money & all of the Governments attention, making all those problems worse....
I think the football has made me depressed
Did anyone watch that debate mentioned earlier?
Did Jacob Cream Cracker tell us all the answers?
The one thing I will agree on is that Brexit has divided the country.
I said this on page 1. The elephant in the room is, why, and what do we do about it?
Remainers didn’t damage anything – we just wanted to keep the **** status-quo,
I don't want to keep the status quo. I want us to reform, to address the concerns which caused that divide.
I don’t want to keep the status quo. I want us to reform, to address the concerns which caused that divide.
This is the sensible, pragmatic approach and the one which a sensible government should have taken.
labour with a 2 point lead over tories in latest yougov
Tories were 3-4 points up a few months ago, will that cow brexies to be more loyal for fear of a corbyn victory or will they use it to wreck May plans?
Voting Intention: Conservatives 39%, Labour 39% (8-9 July)
Latest I could find..
The only question voted on was should the UK leave the EU, you’ve no idea what “the people” voted for beyond that
Yeah, he seems to pop up once in a while, with not a hint of irony accuse those who voted remain of being brain-dead, then promptly tell us that the voting slips actually had an entirely different question. He's best ignored really.
It's coming home, it's coming home, geo-political reality is coming home.
So FT is reporting that "May has abandoned plans for a tight new relationship between the UK's financial services industry and the EU".
Love it or loathe it, this is the sector that provides 11% of government tax receipts. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
My last post seems to have disappeared into the forum black hole… so I apologise if this ends up being a double post… the article linked to is worth posting twice anyway…
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opinion/boris-johnson-resignation-brexit.html
Blame "remainers" all you want for our current situation, but when you promise the undeliverable, and then blame others for not having a plan to deliver it, it's your responsibility.
Interesting study here :
basically says remains are a bunch of neurotic losers and leavers are, interestly, more conscientious.
Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly.
Mooman, for.ypu to post that means you don't really understand the magnitude of what you've done.
I don't want to be an arsehole about any of this but it's a MASSIVE deal. Aside from potentially trashing the economy and Britain's status as a competent stable country, you've taken away a big part of my own personal identity. You've withdrawn me and my kids from our European community.
And we still cannot see any plausible positive reason for it. Remainers do not see ANY good reasons being put forward by leavers. I don't want to feel superior, but how can I give credit to leavers when all I see is misunderstandings, reactionary emotions and incompetence from government?
I feel depressed and fearful for all our futures every day because of this. We are being told by major industries that they will leave if they have to. But all we ever had from Leavers was vague promises. So please give me positive news. Tell me what's going to be good.
It's like someone burning your house down and then complaining you're in a bad mood all day 😉
Another question for mooman. Why do you think we care so much that we lost?
and leavers are, interestly, more conscientious.
Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly.
Glad I didn't have any tea when I read that.... Would have covered the keyboard.
Glad your still looking for things online to reassure yourself there, is it any less bull shit than most of your links?
True, but it also shows that brexit voters are massively authoritarian and that remainers have more ability for deductive reasoning.
I would rather be a little neurotic and able to think well than be a conscientious authoritarian. Which feels like a bit of an oxymoron
Not entirely surprising neuroticism has been strongly linked to higher intelligence
Yeah it also said the leave voters aren't very smart, which might explain why they voted for brexit & trusted Boris Johnson & Farage 😀
When compared to Leave voters, Remain voters had higher levels of numerical risk literacy, were more likely to engage in analytical System 2 thinking, and tended to perform better in deductive reasoning tasks.
It's ok remoaners our smug superiority remainers intact
Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly.
Let us all take a moment to just bask in the conscientiousness of Boris Johnson… go on… soak it all in…
Boris is very conscientious....... About himself. No one else mind
I'm in a bus being driven off a cliff that's approaching at an ever increasing speed.
I think I've got every right to be a bit 'neurotic'
(Neurosis: chronic distress with the absence of delusions)
Shame this is in a US newspaper and not plastered all over the front pages in the UK:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opinion/boris-johnson-resignation-brexit.html
Shame this is in a US newspaper and not plastered all over the front pages in the UK:
It's probably behind the Times paywall, as that's who she writes for normally.
Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly.
Whoever wrote this definition clearly had BoJo and David Davis in mind.
I mean obviously putting those two in charge was a remainer plot. The real talent was always err...
....
....
Liam Fox
It’s like someone burning your house down and then complaining you’re in a bad mood all day
I've come to dislike analogies, they are often used as a misleading way of avoiding thinking about the real issue under discussion. But this is a really good one.
Talking of Fox, why hasn't he resigned yet? Any theories?
Cowardice
And we still cannot see any plausible positive reason for it.
This.
There's plenty of propaganda and rhetoric, sure. We're "taking back control" (of something we already have control of, and achieving it by, uh, relinquishing any control we had in in Europe), regaining sovereignty (which we never lost) and we'll be able to "make our own laws" (which we already do). We can tighten immigration laws (which we already could and chose not to) and can have blue passports (which we can anyway, and also whoopdy ****ing doo). Erm, something about bananas?
Brexit is an idea, an emotion. We want to be free, like Mel Gibson in Braveheart. But there's no tangible, practical reason for it beyond that emotion, other than a few very rich people wanting to be even richer and to hell with everyone else. The Express readers and the bottom half of the Internet have been duped.
A pretty spot on summary Cougar.
Yet, when nothing is delivered and the country is in a mess. It will be the fault of the people who didn't vote for it.
Any one know if there is any substance to the rumour that Boris has got personal financial issues (a comment on a German newspaper website)?
We want to be free, like Mel Gibson in Braveheart.
Yes. In that movie and in countless others, they were fighting against oppression and subjugation, which is laudable. But parts of the UK have transferred that concept to the EU, but it's really not like that.
The EU is for the benefit of all its members, in all sorts of areas. That's why they have stuff like air quality legislation and fire safety regs. That stuff costs big businesses money, but the EU makes them do it because it benefits everyone, down to the very poorest. Freedom of movement enables people to get jobs where there's work and crucially for me it enables people to broaden their horizons if they want to. The single market makes business co-operation easier and enables EU companies to compete with US by giving economies of scale. It slashes the amount of red tape involved in business cooperation.
Of course it ****s up from time to time, everyone does. But overall it's well worth it for the benefits. We've evolved the modern UK as a key part of the modern Europe. Trying to unpick all that in a couple of years is going to be an absolute shit show. We're having to do a mountain of work and spend a shitload of money to reproduce everything the EU does, that we've already contributed to. And it's not even to stay still - we'll be going backwards anyway.
'Freedom' is a poorly defined concept anyway. I'm free in that I'm not living under an oppressive regime, but I'm not free to do absolutely anything I want. I can't build an extension on the side of my house for example because there's a sewer easement. We live under loads of rules, but they exist for the betterment of society as a whole. And it's the same for the EU. Those rules that the EU makes are (or are intended to be) for the benefit of everyone.
AND on top of all that - let's not forget that we were involved in making those rules. We had democratic representation - the EU is a democratic institution. That's why this us vs them stuff is such rubbish. We ARE the EU. There is no 'them'. There are Brits there, sitting alongside the Poles and the Belgians, making the rules. You voted for them, or at least you should have.
All of the reps that we buy from say that it's dire out there. Whole rows of shops gone in 6 months.
The shops that are left, are scared to buy . Everyone is scared of tax and mortgage rises.
Uncertainty kills confidence. Once confidence is gone we are ****ed.
**** every single **** that voted to leave.
Just reading a précis of the proposed Brexit plan on the Beeb site.
According to the government the plan:
<p class="story-body__list-item">Gives the UK an independent trade policy, with the ability to set its own non-EU tariffs and to reach separate trade deals</p>
<p class="story-body__list-item">Ends the role of the ECJ in UK affairs</p>
<p class="story-body__list-item">Ends annual payments to the EU budget with "appropriate contributions for joint action in specific areas"</p>
Appropriate contributions? I wonder what they will all add up to?
Talking of Fox, why hasn’t he resigned yet? Any theories?
Raab on Today this morning; anyone else hear him fail to commit to negotiating the deal this document sets out.
"It's your intention to push this paper through?" (having previously pushed the point that it's one that the two leading brexiteers felt the need to resign over)
"It's not my intention, it's the government's intention which i support"
I think it's a clever choice by May, forcing them to get into line or leave one by one.
I don't blame the leave voters, am fairly sure my wife was one, I blame a system that allows voters to vote on something so complex, but ALSO allows politicians and the media to propogate massive untruths, or at the very least uses hypothetical conjecture as the basis for concrete argument.
Why is it so difficult to prevent politicians bullshitting? Can political debate not at least borrow some principles from courts of law? Should freedom of speech really extend to allowing damaging untruths or half-truths to become fact?
For what it's worth, my otherwise wonderful, multi-cultural and tolerant wife voted Leave (probably, she won't admit it outright) because she believed it would cut immigration and mean less overcrowded hospitals and classrooms. The logic that the government could easily solve both problems if it really wanted fell on deaf ears (she doesn't believe in the magic money tree either, even when I asked how many schools the DUP bung alone might have built...).
Needless to say we pretty much have to avoid talking politics in the house now...
Why is it so difficult to prevent politicians bullshitting? Can political debate not at least borrow some principles from courts of law? Should freedom of speech really extend to allowing damaging untruths or half-truths to become fact?
Given how the Brexiteers on the radio at the weekend were still promising cash for the NHS without admitting how much Brexit was costing - and they were allowed to get away with it it's not going to stop.
The rise of the Alternative Fact/Enough of Experts means that even a proven lie is just ignored as somebodies spin on it
I think it’s a clever choice by May, forcing them to get into line or leave one by one.
Suffering the death of a thousand papercuts instead of getting it over and done with, yeah genius.
It still amazes me that the incompetent litany or errors by the moronic May and Cameron before her are somehow portrayed as a cunning machiavellian plan.
she believed it would mean less overcrowded hospitals and classrooms.
Dunno about classrooms, but as a percentage there are more migrants working in the NHS than using it. Lower net immigration = fewer hospital staff per patient = more overcrowded hospitals. She's (probably) voted for the opposite of what she wants.
Brexit is an idea, an emotion. We want to be free, like Mel Gibson in Braveheart. But there’s no tangible, practical reason for it beyond that emotion, other than a few very rich people wanting to be even richer and to hell with everyone else. The Express readers and the bottom half of the Internet have been duped.
By giving away their rights.
Immigration will continue from countries outside the EU, whose citizens along with ours will have less rights than EU citizens...part of the brexit ideal.
Some atlanticist's such as Fox wanting to sign a quick and very one sided trade deal to become a vassal 51st state. Another part of the Brexit ideal.
The most offensive thing has been listening to these C**ts talking about ending free movement, and no one, particularly in the media pointing out it ends our free movement too. Them taking away that from me is unforgivable.
I'm entering politics, and those who think this is a total sh*t show should do so to, because even after Brexit, it won't be over by a very long chalk.
Front page headline on the Daily Mail today:
"BREXIT: NOW IT'S GUERILLA WAR"
You'd have thought that given their circulation, they'd have been able to afford a spell checker. (It's "guerrilla".)
A pretty succinct and accurate piece on our own Pound Shop Trump from the New York Times
Boris Johnson has ruined Britain
It's a great piece, but must we post it quite so many times in this thread?
Seeing as Brexit is the single most cyclical subject in the history of the world, ever, it seemed perfectly apt, yes. 😉
From:
In some manufactured goods sectors where more complex products have the potential to pose a higher risk to consumers, patients or environmental safety, a greater level of regulatory control is applied. The European Medicines Agency (EMA), the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) facilitate part of these regulatory frameworks. In line with the UK’s objective of ensuring that products only go through one approval mechanism to
access both markets, the UK is seeking participation in these EU agencies, as an active participant, albeit without voting rights, which would involve making an appropriate financial contribution. The UK would want to secure access to relevant IT systems, ensuring the timely transfer of data between UK and EU authorities
So to be part of these systems (that we currently are) since this is deemed to be a good idea, the country will have to pay, but will have no influence or voting rights. Yeh! - go us.....
Yay, now we’re really taking back control!
Molgrips - was that supposed to be satirical of Remainers being a bunch of delicate Snowflakes?
particularly in the media pointing out it ends our free movement too.
Only for the plebs. For the Brexit elite there are always options. Get Putin to pay for a Malta passport or get your French citizenship sorted out fast.
waaait a minute wasnt mooman just being all snowflakey about us remoaners being mean to the poor brexies?
anyway
I see May is fluffing trump for a trade deal, ironic as TTIP was as used (falsely) by leave voters as a reason for brexit 🙂
how desperate we have become!
i hope the EU tells May to F off . Barnier always said the UK could not cherry pick the services it wanted .
Unless of course they put a high price on those services .
and maybe the Leavers could tell us what their plan is ?
A lot easier to moan at remainers instead ..............
Come on Turner guy and Mooman , we are waiting !
waaait a minute wasnt mooman just being all snowflakey about us remoaners being mean to the poor brexies?
I think he must just have a reminder set to pop back and join in before leaving without really adding much...
without really adding much…
Well it works for Boris and Farage....
I see May is fluffing trump
Thanks for that mental image, I'll not sleep tonight.
Snowflakes - folk who melt away under pressure.
So by recent Brexies posts on here, not remainers who simply refuse to melt away.
Brexies on the other hand...
Gammon snowflakes doesn’t really make sense does it?
Gammon slushie? Bit odd and leaves a bad taste in the mouth?
A lot of snowflakes = a blizzard.
Watching Barry Gardner on QT the Labour Party’s policy is presently looking even more ‘cake and eat it’ than the Tory’s.
Seriously .... what is the point of the Labour Party if they can’t even oppose this *ing madness?
Theyre an irrelevance. The sofa I’m presently on has more political instinct than the labour front bench!
*s!
Seriously …. what is the point of the Labour Party if they can’t even oppose this ****ing madness?
Theyre an irrelevance. The sofa I’m presently on has more political instinct than the labour front bench!
As has been said many times, a lot of Labour's heartlands voted for Brexit. They are probably rather concerned that if they do go full remain, Farage, Snooty et al. supported by most of the media will turn on them so viciously that they'd be reduced to having about as many seats as your sofa has.
I think in modern parlance it's what's termed a wicked problem.
But right now it's a lot more the government's than it is theirs. Whilst their "small target" approach irks me greatly, given the rabid hate most of the media have for anything to the left of Tony Blair, I have to say I can't see much to be gained from standing up and being absolutely crucified. Let the Tories continue their implosion on their own. Triggering a Labour implosion too won't change where we are for the better.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">Cougar
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<div class="">Subscriber</div>
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">A lot of snowflakes = a blizzard
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Good good effort at trying to masculine up the snowflake image ... but reading all the remainer comments on this thread kinda makes it impossible now😂
but i I will repeat what I have already said. If you remoaners put half as much effort into looking at positives about Brexit, instead of potential negatives, then your world would seem so much brighter ... I know change scares certain types of people; but embrace it - you might like it.
Please feel free to give us a comprehensive list of the positives...
So what are they? Plenty of people have asked you for what you see as the benefits, but all you've done is snipe at people from the sidelines.
btw "potential" = actual, current.
but i I will repeat what I have already said.
You haven't said anything of substance. You simply pop up, hurl abuse, then bugger off again without making a single positive or proactive statement.
What positive things will Brexit bring?
How will it facilitate things that cannot already occur?
What will the intended and unintended consequences of brexit be?
You wanted to leave. I was presuming therefore that you had a plan, or at least a vague notion, of how this would all work out in real life. Perhaps provide something approaching a comprehensive answer to any or all of the above and you might find a more receptive audience.
Mooman - as with all brexies, Good soundbyte, no detail.
Come on what are the positives? Unless you count the poor hygiene American meat that the us wants to sell us
mooman - Member
Mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
If you remoaners put half as much effort into looking at positives about Brexit, instead of potential negatives,
I've put lots of effort in buy I've only found one possible positive, but it's overwhelmed by negatives.
You seem to think I started off negative about Brexit and am looking to justify it. But the reason I am negative about it is because it's an awful idea in the first place! I've listed them here, and the news keeps listing negatives every day.
So it's not really fair to criticise us for being negative is it? Prove to us why we should be positive. Give us good news.
Moomans, you've nicely stunned to Brexiters....
If I believed that unicorns were real my life would be much brighter.
It wouldn't make them any less of a fantasy though
So May's fluffing didn't work too well on the orange one.
This man knows the positives of Brexit
This one has an idea too
Moving the UK down the list of negotiating powers out of the EU, holding the EU back and dividing people mean they get more of what they want.
Just who is running this country now?
I think the brexiters are a bit shy on putting in writing what the positives of brexit are to them but I would guess;
- Less dirty foreigners in the country
- Reduction of people rights (you know, those people we don't like who shouldn't have rights)
- Ability to make up are own laws (I know)
- Reduction of workers right (for any one that runs a dodgy business)
Now you wouldn't want to admit to that as you would then put a position forward that could be debased in seconds.
If I believed that unicorns were real my life would be much brighter.
It wouldn’t make them any less of a fantasy though
That kind of language isn't going to promote debate kimbers.
For me, a positive of Brexit is that a sufficiently social-minded government could give lots of state aid to its own businesses and industries, which would benefit the works of the UK in theory.
However, I think that without strong export markets these industries are unlikely to be better off post Brexit. Other countries in the EU will find it far easier to shop within the EU; for countries outside it we'll be competing with the entire rest of the world.
That kind of language isn’t going to promote debate kimbers.
It appears that most of the Brexiteers have no interest in debate, the lack of info/plan/facts tells us that, why not take the piss out of them?
It appears that most of the Brexiteers have no interest in debate
Mooman has already said the reason he doesn't come here is cos he feels Brexiters are bullied, that their side isn't being heard and Remainers don't listen.
why not take the piss out of them?
Because it's being dickish, and see above. I'd love to engage, hear his side, and maybe he could see my side. But that's never going to happen if you just pile in and insult him constantly. On this, he has a point and he's dead right.
Mooman has already said the reason he doesn’t come here is cos he feels Brexiters are bullied, that their side isn’t being heard and Remainers don’t listen.
No he comes in here yells remainer snowflake and runs off again.
We have all asked for an outline of what he wants from Brexit to which he ignores it and comes back shouting reaminer snowflake about a week later.
Reap what you sow
You are right of course molgrips but it's inevitable when the Brexiteers won't say why they believe we are better out of the EU.