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Er… I for one knew that Obama had spoken about Brexit… it was on the TV and everything… there was even someone called Trump talking a very different line… views expressed… in public… we could all form our own view on their motives. Not quite the same as the behind the scenes fun Putin has been having at our expense… I have no problem with Putin expressing a view on Brexit, any more than the leaders of Japan, Canada, our EU allies, etc… that is not what needs investigating… is it.
Anyway… it's worth looking back at this bit of Project Fear… and compare it to how things are shaping up for us now…
And, I stopped regulary reading the Guardian around the time of the election before last… but someone else pointed me towards this choice quote about the Brexit true believers inside government…
I for one knew that Obama had spoken about Brexit… it was on the TV and everything…
I wonder why why the government denied having asked him to intervene at the time then? If there was nothing nefarious about it then they could have told the truth.
the behind the scenes fun Putin has been having at our expense
I don’t remember you complaining when Corbyn and Gorgeous George were appearing on Russia Today, being paid to spout Russian agitprop over Libya and other Russian foreign policy objectives.
like Cougar, your road to Damascus conversion only appears to have happened once you discovered that the evil Russians were no longer backing your lofty liberal ideals. Not a peep from you over the decades when they were backing CND, the ANC, the IRA and all sorts of leftie goals
Agent Cob on Russia Today? Really?
being paid to spout Russian agitprop
Like what?
road to Damascus conversion
You know, it is possible to learn something and change position. You don't have to be sarcastic about it. It's generally a good thing to learn stuff.
the IRA and all sorts of leftie goals
What the **** does the IRA have to do with the left? Being on the left means wanting the government to help the people. If you think this means supporting terrorists then you have no idea about politics whatsoever and should stop talking about it.
Considering their very public opinions if there was a sudden change by Corbyn et al would this not be more newsworthy?
i thought George was just being widely ignored these days after people got bored with his I am anti whatever the establishment is pro today stance
Not a peep from you over the decades when they were backing CND, the ANC, the IRA and all sorts of leftie goals
Were you vocal on all those issues then??
It's telling how much you want to avoid any questions on the topic just how toxic you know it is.
Putin might be sad his team are out of the WC, but hes got the consolation prize of Trump & Brexit
hes the only person who'll be seeing a Brexit dividend, chuck a few million at Farrage, Banks etc, watch the UK shoot itself in the foot. (see also displacing syrians & helping exacerbate migrant crisis, as well as more open funding b& support of LePenn & AfD)
any MP is foolish to go on RT & legitimise them, on the left or right, was pretty surprising to see right-wing brexiteers such as Peter Bone & Owen Patterson chatting so happily with George Galloway on his Sputnik show in the run up to the referendum, RT were hugely pro Brexit, youd have thought thyed have twigged that it might not be in our nations interest.
Thats one of the weird things about all the right-wing brexies, its obvious that they are achieving Putins aims for him, even as he lobs chemical weapons about the UK freely, they still support the weakening of the EU & the UK.
What the **** does the IRA have to do with the left? Being on the left means wanting the government to help the people.
They're clearly running out of arguments when that pup rears its head. I'd be embarrassed for using that logic. Not even worth a response.
What the **** does the IRA have to do with the left?
It's ninfan, 99% of the planet is a bit lefty to him, Thatcher was just about a communist in his eyes
Okay ninfan, what sort of Brexit would you wish to see and how would you reconcile the northern irish border and the demands of businesses?
Blimey, some really desperate posts from Ninfan on this page!
It's the 5 stages isn't it- first you deny that there was any improper collusion, then you furiously accuse everyone else, then you try to convince everyone that actually it's completely normal and nothing to worry about. Still, it shows that pretty much nobody thinks there's any mileage left in denying it so that's something
Okay ninfan, what sort of Brexit would you wish to see and how would you reconcile the northern irish border and the demands of businesses?
Probably wants the UK to invade Ireland and reverse 1916-21. Yet, who's actions will probably lead to the Scottish independence 100 years after Irish Independence, and with it the end of the Union.
Okay ninfan, what sort of Brexit would you wish to see and how would you reconcile the northern irish border and the demands of businesses?
Waste of a good question mark that one 😉 His last answer was like any good brexiegammon Leave, what kind of leave, LEAVE!, yeah but how LEAVE!!!!
What the **** does the IRA have to do with the left?
Jesus wept! Did you even bother googling anything about the history of the IRA and Sinn Fein (of which you clearly know nothing) before trying to pick an argument with me?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker s'_Party_of_Ireland
http://www.marxist.com/ireland-gerry-adams-sinn-fein-and-the-redmondite-ghost.htm
Yet, who’s actions will probably lead to the Scottish independence 100 years after Irish Independence, and with it the end of the Union.
yeah, we heard before the indyref how it was inevitable that the evil Tories treatment of the Scottish for decades would lead to an overwhelming rejection of the Union, but it turns out that, just like Cullodden, it was all just puffed out chests and blue faced talk, so you bottled it and ran away.
At least the people of England and Wales had the balls to vote for independence from the EU, but like we all knew, the pussies on the establishment gravy train are trying their best and keep us in Hotel California.
I don’t remember you complaining when Corbyn and Gorgeous George were appearing on Russia Today, being paid to spout Russian agitprop over Libya and other Russian foreign policy objectives.
@ninfan, I have ranted about politicians of all hues taking RT money, as it happens. Pretty pointless whataboutery from you though, bringing it up as some kind of justification for Putin's involvement in the Brexit canpaign… which really should be investigated properly by our authorities… rather than leaving it to the 'mericans to maybe do it for us.
but like we all knew, the pussies on the establishment gravy train are trying their best and keep us in Hotel California.
So, Brexit is "being done wrong" in your eyes, fair enough… now how should it be done @ninfan?
Wasn’t it the Official IRA under Goulding that trumpeted the Marxist stuff? (Actually I know it was). The Provos on the other hand were less about political dogma and more about, well, republicanism. It was a New Year resolution of mine not to comment on or read the political threads on here again because it is a waste of time.
However, on seeing ninfy still here and still talking shit, I thought I’d make an exception, just to point that out.
Over and out.
the pussies on the establishment gravy train are trying their best and keep us in Hotel California.
So wait Johnson, Leadsom, Gove etc are enemies of the people now?
Meanwhile, Putin's murdering British civilians and the Brexiters are still supporting him.
The history books will look back on this period & frame the Brexiters as some sort of 5th column, within their own country.
Wasn’t it the Official IRA under Goulding that trumpeted the Marxist stuff? (Actually I know it was).
Left wing support for Irish Nationalism significantly predates the Goulding era split. James Connolly was writing about it being a battle for emancipation of the working classes in 1908, go rther and Marx & Engels were preoccupied with the issue.
It certainly helps avoid talking about today's issues
In the blinkered view that everything can be left or right leads many to some really misguided thinking.
I think the comments from Ninfan about the establishment gravy train in the remain camp are well wide of the mark. I would bet my house on Nigel, Boris, DD, Dr Liam, Jacob and Michael all having their money invested overseas and have already seen their assets soar as the pound has dropped. If, as most likely happens the country's economy tanks then they will make an absolute killing. Of course if Britain miraculously regains the influence and economic standing it had in the world prior to WW1 then of course they become heroes. A no lose situation for these guys, wish I could say the same for the rest of us.
Of course if Britain miraculously regains the influence and economic standing it had in the world prior to WW1 then of course they become heroes.
In in preparation for this I am going to go back to the old colonial names for countries. We won’t need trade deals we will just send a gunboat to Ceylon for tea and they will provide it for free if they don’t want a sound thrashing....
they all need us you know...
Not a peep from you over the decades when they were backing CND, the ANC, the IRA and all sorts of leftie goals
Don’t forget DFS, there’s got to be an explanation for those sofas.
I look forward to re-instigating my great grandfathers opium routes. I have a fleet of tall ships at the ready
The Cutty Sark can be released from Greenwich and as long as Johnny Foreigner doesn’t know how to use fire we will be all good...
Jesus wept! Did you even bother googling anything about the history of the IRA and Sinn Fein (of which you clearly know nothing) before trying to pick an argument with me?
Umm.. so some terrorists are lefties. Ok, but that does not mean all lefties are terrorists, does it?
Can I just confirm something Ninfan? Are you saying that being a socialist means you also support violence and terror?
Let’s get back to the matter in hand:
Okay ninfan, what sort of Brexit would you wish to see and how would you reconcile the northern irish border and the demands of businesses?
Boom Davies finally delivered something he promised to do
Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out.
I’ve been waiting for it for two years but surely this must finally sound the bell on the totally insane wing of the Tory party declaring war on the ever-so-slightly less insane wing?
this must finally sound the bell on the totally insane wing of the Tory party declaring war on the ever-so-slightly less insane wing
Yip
A hardliner in number 10 very soon
Hard Brexit is now the only outcome
Absolute madness
Hard Brexit is now the only outcome
If if you are going to do something bloody stupid you might as well really go for it with no half measures. Stride out with confidence and all that.
Considering how badly he handled himself & how poorly prepared he was at the brexit select committee meetings, I'm amazed he wasn't fired months ago.
Ironically hes actually the cause of the governments weakness, he was the genius behind May's early election to increase the governments brexit mandate 😂
Surely it's time for a vote of no confidence in the government over Brexit and the triggering of a General Election before the government cripples the country for generations to come?
The hardliners seem to insist that anything but a hard Brexit will be contrary to the referendum vote, but of course no one voted for any sort of Brexit beyond leaving the EU in some capacity.
I don't think that there's any consensus for a hard Brexit in Parliament, just a vocal minority in the Tory party but Theresa May seems to be trying to assuage them in order to cling to power rather than putting the Country's interests first.
GE to decide which type of Brexit the country gets?
Boris vs Corbs vs Libs for fully in?
That would rely on Corbyn actually deciding what sort of Brexit he wanted other than mumble mumble .... jobs. And, even then, we wouldn't know if that was something the EU would agree to.
I'm sure David Davies will now spell out his own far superior plan for Brexit …
[ obviously he won't ]
The original referendum was a total mess with just an In-Out option. Some people may object to a second referendum on leaving the EU, but a fresh referendum on the type of Brexit would be an option. It'd be a faff certainly but as a no going back, one off decision that will affect the Country for generations to come, it is significant enough. Personally I think that the EU would extend deadlines in order to get a go workable outcome.
I’m sure David Davies will now spell out his own far superior plan for Brexit …
he'll start with
Brexit means Brexit
then move onto
A red, white and blue Brexit!
How long does the whole vote of no confidence, leadership election etc process take for the tories? Is there time for their infighting or will we drive off the cliff edge with nobody at the wheel?
https://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/motion-of-no-confidence/
Doesn't look as if it would automatically trigger a General Election, but would do so after 2 weeks if a viable government can't be formed.
We'd have to wait an see if the EU would hold back negotiations until we'd sorted ourselves out. Personally I feel that Brexit is significant enough to warrant this approach.
do the tory Brexit rebels even have the numbers to unseat her, I doubt it. My guess Davis has gone because we are heading to a "rebranded" Norway deal.... he knows we'll have to cave to the 4 freedoms as no deal is not an option (for May).
That’s a shame .
He flogged himself flat out for 2 years to get the very best brexit deal and all he’ll get at the end is a knighthood.
It’s a shame the hard working British taxpayers can’t award him a sainthood.
There is no point in Tory MPs unseating the PM unless they have a plan for Brexit that the majority of MPs can back…
There is no point in Tory MPs unseating the PM unless they have a plan for Brexit that the majority of MPs can back…
That lack of forward thinking has never stopped them knifing each other before. Rats in a Sack.
The question is who would want the poison chalice PM job.
I fear Jacob Cream Cracker will be jostled to the front of the angry mob.
Gove the new Brexit Bulldog? Say what?
I fear Jacob Cream Cracker will be jostled to the front of the angry mob.
I think he prefers to stay in the background rather than actually be held accountable.
I am still suspicious this is is a bit of a mixup and Davis accidentally screwed up his fortnightly resignation threat.
Actually a leadership election with JRM vs Anyone-not-batshit-mental might be a good thing - don't think there's sufficient support outside his crew of 80 to get him elected, and that gives ANBSM (the new PM) a way to put him back in his box and get on with doing something that might actually give us a chance of economic prospeerity over the next decade or two.
And, even then, we wouldn’t know if that was something the EU would agree to.
Exactly. To have any vote at all we need the exact agreed deals that we would be voting on otherwise it would just be the same mess all over again.
Principled man refusing to argue for something he doesn’t agree with.
This was posted in the brexit bulldog thread, but had to reply....
It's DDs 6th threat to resign in 2 years, he didn't even do it when it would have had a big impact & done it to May's face on Friday, instead he went home to sulk over the weekend & did it 3 days later after the rest of the party had spent the weekend spinning it as a success!
His lack of knowledge of his brief at the brexit select committee meetings have been painful , he tried desperately to surppress his own impact assessments when they showed just how damaging brexit would be & of course he is the main reason that the talks have failed, not because of his spectacular incompetence, but because of his genius early election to solidify the Tories brexit mandate, that left them dependent on the DUP, who then held them to ransom over NI border
Principled man refusing to argue for something he doesn’t agree with.
So. I predict Gove.
"As a reward for your loyalty and principled selling of your Brexit friends down the river, Michael; as chief Skeksis, I'd like to offer you....
...this poisoned chalice...".
Sadly the public ridicule thread about Davis resigning has been closed, so I’ll copy what I wrote over there here.
BOOM
The Business Analyst has passed over his findings and upon seeing the scope and impacts has finally bailed and handed his notice in.
Save Maybot doing it.
Right, next …. off you go LyingBloHard
And thats it.
I hope this brings a lesson to the rest of the nasty party, that your own political careers are heading for the toilet.
Along with your racist vows, retarded outlooks and pathetic school brat infighting.
So...
Despite being asked many, many times ninfan still hasn't told us how he would see brexit working. Maybe like every other brexit voter I've spoke too he hasn't got a f****** clue.
Even those that voted Leave didnt really expect us to actually leave ... and it was almost guaranteed to pan out that way by having a Remainer in charge; like having a turkey organise Christmas dinner.
Money rules. Big business cant lose their access to cheap labour to maintain their big profits for those at top ... so as is the short sighted smash and grab contemporary way; forget about tomorrow - grab as much as you can today!
Grayling as Brexshit sec ? god help us!
So JRM has spoken:
Speaking on LBC, the Tory backbencher and prominent Brexiteer said he didn't think a no confidence vote in the PM was "immediately in the offing", but she needs to change direction.
"I think what the prime minister needs to do is to give up on the Chequers proposals, which David Davis in his resignation letter has pointed out don't actually deliver Brexit," he said.
"The problem with Chequers is the prime minister was very clear that Brexit would mean Brexit.
"She made a number of statements indicating she was going to do it properly and then she has decided to have a basically Remainer approach to negotiations and that is what has done her damage."
Well that's clear then - he doesn't like the deal but doesn't know how to "fix" it and certainly doesn't want to be responsible for "fixing it". Instead he'll stay on the sidelines criticsing and using vacuous soundbytes.
Grayling as Brexshit sec ? god help us!
He'd grab it with both hands to get away from transport. No-one else is dumb enough to take over the 'easiest negotiation in history'.
the whole process was always going to be a mess of monumental proportions, but it's now surpassed all expectations !
Some brilliant comments leaving from DDs colleagues
https://twitter.com/rosschawkins/status/1016196472726048768?s=19
Considering how badly he handled himself & how poorly prepared he was at the brexit select committee meetings, I’m amazed he wasn’t fired months ago.
If I'd been his boss I would have had the useless sod on a Performance Improvement Plan ages ago.
JRM knows as well as anyone that we are caught between a rock and a hard place if we want there to be minimal short to medium term economic and social disruption from Brexit. He's also hugely out of his depth and he understands that the worst thing that could possibly happen right now is a leadership challenge or a collapse of government.
Interesting times.
There won't be a leadership challenge. The hard brexiteers in the party, despite all the noise they make, are actually a small minority of Tory MPs. The rest are remainers. If they go for a vote of no confidence May will win it comfortably, and they know that.
Davis resigned because he's a bone idle thicko who was miles out of his depth, and wanted to spend even more time catatonically drunk. The Brexiteers are waiting for Boris to resign. Don't hold your breath chaps.....
its Rabid Raab!
Big business cant lose their access to cheap labour to maintain their big profits for those at top
Interesting that you think this is why businesses are pro EU.
Personally, I don't think they'd suddenly become more philanthropic outside the EU. And even if that were the reason (and I don't think it is) they'd just move work elsewhere.
The EU has become a very well integrated place, all our businesses have become dependent on each other, across the bloc, and that is how businesses grow. And we ALL prosper when businesses grow, despite the 'fat cat' type headlines. It's undoubtedly true that some business owners are taking too much profit and not passing it on to workers, and that is very bad. But don't get that confused with economic growth. The two aren't the same. Everyone benefits from a growing economy and strong businesses.
Brexit puts a massive spanner in the works for businesses that are trying to build industries and create jobs. It is NOT going to solve the fat cat problem - no way. It's going to make it worse, since unscrupulous fat cats will either leave, or continue feathering their own nests at the expense of workers anyway.
+1 molgrips
there is a big misunderstanding of this
Tory MPs openly describing this a shitshow, now
https://twitter.com/Simonhartmp/status/1016220905746436096
Despite being asked many, many times ninfan still hasn’t told us how he would see brexit working. Maybe like every other brexit voter I’ve spoke too he hasn’t got a f****** clue.
I thought it was obvious. Ninny and his crew want to leave the EU no matter the cost. The first part of their plan being was once the Uk has left it will be forced to deal with its new circumstances...the second part of the plan kicks in afterwards and we all know of course what that plan is.
As for DD,his replacement, Gove, Johnson, Fox, JRM etc, this is what happens when paid for education educates people far beyond their own intelligence.
The educated "stupids" are becoming an epidemic.
Dominic Raab?
You. Cannot. Be. Serous....
Ok. Not big. Not clever. But...
The new Brexit Bulldog is Raab(id)
Wasnt raab in favour of extwnding transition?
thatll please the brexies
Steve Baker, Mogg & other brexies not holding back on their criticisms of May now
They can gob off all they like. They won't actually do anything though. They'll bitch and moan, like always, but don't have any answers when asked what their proposals alternative would be? They don't have any actual proposals or policies. They never did.
And the very last thing shithouses like Gove or Johnson want is ownership of this car crash
here is a big misunderstanding of this
See Zippykona and his chocolate. He's not fat cat (although I dunno how much he weighs) but he'll have to spend more money and time dealing with imports post Brexit, making his chocolate more expensive and putting him at a disadvantage. If his profit margins are small it may end up not being worth his while.
And that same story will be happening all over the country.
If they go for a vote of no confidence May will win it comfortably, and they know that.
I might have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick, but I understand a Motion of No Confidence to be a vote of no confidence in the Government by Parliament (which could, ultimately, trigger a general election) rather than against a PM. Aren't the Tories are, technically, a minority government propped up by the DUP? It's not entirely implausible that a Motion of No Confidence could be won if enough MPs are concerned enough about the ruinous mess the government seem to be making of Brexit; the DUP might not be so supportive if it looks like a no deal exit might screw up Northern Ireland (I assume that a No Deal exit would result in a hard border).
we aren't talking about a no confidence parliament vote here though, are we? I think the potential challenge for TM the PM is a 1922 committee NC vote, where 15% of her MPs have to sign a motion to the head of the 1922 - that's 48 MPs if my maths is right. And while a large chunk of them are cowardly sheisters, that wouldn't stop them from ganging together if someone else was brave enough to start the fight.
@theotherjonv Don't think of it as a leadership contest, IMO. Think of it as a fillybuster.
How much time would a contest waste? how much closer to March and no deal does it get us.
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