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With the government in total disarray over Brexit as the deadline looms, Jeremy at PMQ's is going for the jugular
He's asking her about improvements to bus services
Jesus ****ing wept!!!!
Given that most of us will be lucky to afford a bus ticket at the end of this, I think it’s quite a pertinent question
And the last to PMQs he has gone on about brexit and nailed May to the mast.
Binners - I really question you on this when you support Burnham who disgracefully played the race card to get elected mayer and a man who has no principles and no ideas.
Nothing Corbyn can do will please you - are you sure you really are a labour supporter not a shy tory? 😉
Critizing Corbyn's hard Brexit stance (which is pretty much inline with that of the non-ERG Tories, with wriggle room to allow for the occasional "jobs first" sound bite) does not make Binners, or anyone, a "shy Tory". Stop drinking up the propaganda.
Yeah, the irony of being accused of being a Tory by a Corbyn supporter, when Jezza's position on the only real issue of the day is directly in line with such tub-thumping, working class, socialist heroes as Ian Duncan Smith, John Redwood, Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox, Bill Cash and Michael Gove?
Wut?
Sarcasm flying everywhere. 😉 "shy tory" was a tease.
I really do not know where this idea Corbyn wants a hard brexit comes from. Its not in line with anything I have ever seen from him in recent years. His position is not mine no - but he is able to take a compromise and move along with the evidence.
I stopped voting Labour in the Blair / Murphy years duye to the fact they no longer represented my sort of labour parrty
Corbyn is not really who I would want either but he is a damn sight closer to the labour party I have supported for 40 years than any of the other contenders like Benn
Theme tune to TJs ideal Labour party
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs</span>
Rayban - why don't you just bore off? You really are not funny and ignoring your posts does not stop you making personal attacks on me. You have been warned and banned for the personal attacks. Please stop.
Bloomington heck JLR not holding back
They've already spent £10m on brexit contingency planning
& Reckon that they will have to ditch £80bn UK investment plan in case of hard brexit
https://www.ft.com/content/d077afaa-7f8a-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d
Bloomington heck JLR not holding back
They’ve already spent £10m on brexit contingency planning
& Reckon that they will have to ditch £80bn investment plan in case of hard brexit
Gloves are off, government has been listening to the they need us more than we need them lot too much and now the grown ups are back in the room.
JLR
BMW
Airbus
Rolls Royce
It's a big hole in the UK exchequer
Robert Peston on Facebook. Very interesting. Basically the idea of a bespoke deal isn't remotely possible. It'll be a Norway esque model or hard brexit. Unless common sense prevails and the whole thing is scrapped
This is one of the more important notes I've written recently, because it contains what well-placed sources tell me are the main elements of the Prime Minister's Brexit plan - which will be put to her cabinet for approval on Friday.
I would characterise the kernel of what she wants as the softest possible Brexit, subject to driving only the odd coach over her self-imposed red lines, as opposed to the full coach and horses.
And I will start with my habitual apology: some of what follows is arcane, technical and - yes - a bit boring. But it matters.
Let's start with the PM's putative third way on a customs arrangement with the EU, which has been billed by her Downing Street officials as an almalgam of the best bits of the two precursor plans, the New Customs Partnership (NCP) and Maximum Facilitation (Max Fac).
Last night I described this supposed third way as largely the NCP rebranded - which prompted howls of outrage from one Downing Street official.
But I stand by what I said. Because the new proposal of the PM and her officials, led on this by Olly Robbins, retains the NCP's most controversial element, namely that the UK would at its borders collect duties on imports at the rate of the European Union's common customs tariff.
The UK would in that sense be the EU's tax collector. And although the UK would have the right to negotiate trade agreements with third countries where tariffs could be different from the EU's or zero, companies in the UK importing from those countries would have to claim back the difference from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC), much in the way they currently claim or pay different VAT rates when trading with the EU.
The reason why, from a bureaucratic if not economic viewpoint, the UK would in effect remain in the EU's customs union is that there is no other way of avoiding border checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Or at least that is what the PM and her officials now believe.
To be clear, this would be an asymmetric agreement with the EU: Theresa May may ask EU governments to collect customs duties on behalf of the UK from companies based in their respective countries, but she knows they will respond with a decisive no, nay, never.
Which may seem unfair. But actually this would only be a problem if there were an imminent prospect of a future British government wanting to impose higher tariffs than EU ones. And certainly the political climate now - outside of Trumpian America - is for lower tariffs.
Just to be clear, there will be some of Max Fac in this new synthesised customs plan: IT and camera technology employed to reduce the bureaucracy and frictions of cross-border trade.
But the True Brexiters won't be wholly relaxed (ahem) by what they are likely to see as NCP by another name.
And there's more, of course.
Because frictionless trade and an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic cannot just be achieved by aligning customs collection rates.
It also requires alignment of product standards, for goods and agricultural products.
Or at least that is what the PM will insist on with her Cabinet colleagues.
And that alignment would in effect replicate membership of the single market for goods and agri-foods.
Which would see European standards and law continuing, ad infinitum, to hold sway over British manufacturing and food production - though the ultimate court of appeal in commercial disputes. would, in May's and Robbins's formulation, be an extra-territorial international court, like the European Free Trade Area's EFTA court.
Given that the ECJ would still have a locus below this final adjudicating tribunal, I assume the True Brexiters such as Jacob Rees-Mogg will be unamused.
But maybe they would take comfort that a British parliament could always withdraw from the trading arrangement, if there were concerns that the rest of the EU was discriminating against the UK.
At this juncture you are saying, I am sure, "oi! what about services?" - given that the UK is largely a service economy (80% of our economic output, our GDP, is generated by service businesses).
Well there is an aspiration to maximise access to the EU's giant market for services by aligning professional and quality standards, for example.
But equally there is a pragmatic recognition that maximising such access would require minimising restrictions on EU citizens moving to the UK to live and work; there is a calculation by Robbins and his officials that, among the EU's so-called four freedoms, free movement of services and free movement of people are pragmatically connected.
And since the PM has pledged to impose new controls on the free movement of people from the rest of the EU, she accepts that the EU will insist on some new restrictions on the sale of British services in its marketplace.
But May and her ministers are hopeful there is a deal to be done here, a trade-off: preferential rights offered to EU citizens to live and work in the UK, compared to the rights available to citizens from the rest of the world, for improved market access in Europe for British service companies.
We'll see.
In the round, you may conclude - as I have - that Theresa May wants a future commercial arrangement with the EU that is not as deep and intimate as Norway's, but is not a million miles from Switzerland's.
From which there follow two crucial if obvious questions.
Will the EU - its chief negotiator Michel Barnier and the 27 government heads - bite or balk?
If Barnier's word was gospel on this, the plan would be dead at birth, because it does put a wedge between the four freedoms: May wants complete freedom of movement for goods (and capital), but restrictions on people.
May's bet is that his employers, the 27 prime ministers and presidents, will be less dogmatic.
But what about her own cabinet and parliamentary party?
If they are in the True Brexit camp, like Davis, Johnson, Fox, and Gove, won't they cry "infamy, infamy, etc", threaten resignation and launch a coup to oust the PM?
Well, what the PM will say to them is that her deal, she believes, is the only one around that stands even the faintest chance of being agreed in Brussels (though, to repeat, you would be right to be sceptical of that).
Which carries a momentous implication - namely that if they reject her vision of Brexit, the default option of exiting the EU without a deal would become the sole option.
And although many True Brexiters would say "hip hip for that", if a no-deal Brexit were to become the only game in town, there would be a revolt of MPs and Lords against the executive, against the PM and her government.
Parliament would - almost certainly - reject exiting the EU without a deal and could, probably would, vote for the UK to join the European Economic Area and remain in the EU's single market.
That would, for most True Brexiters, turn the UK into what they call a "vassal state".
So come Friday, Johnson, Davis, Fox and Gove face an agonising choice: agree to a Brexit plan from May which will stick in their craws like a rotting mackerel head; or reject it and take the risk that what follows is almost their worst nightmare, not a clean no-deal Brexit, but the detested "Brino", or Brexit in name only.
Of course there is always a chance that if they shout and scream loudly enough, May will buckle - and will allow the cabinet to agree on obfuscation for the White Paper on her Brexit negotiating position, to be published 12 July, rather than a clear and unambiguous plan to be put to the EU, of the sort I've described.
If that were to happen, her authority would be undermined, perhaps fatally. And the possibility of there being no deal with the EU, on divorce and future relationship, would become a serious, potentially catastrophic probability.
And in related news... https://news.sky.com/story/vote-leave-whistleblower-shahmir-sanni-says-democracy-has-been-tainted-11426450
Vote Leave tries to get retaliation in first 🙂
Full report could make for interesting reading - no doubt the Electoral Commission will be the next to labelled enemies of the people.
If Pestons anything like right, Friday is going to be shit sandwich day- the only question is who is going to be eating it.
I predict more can kicking, not resigning ministers … somehow … they'll kick the can past the Leave date if they can find a way …
Well its sleepover on Friday and England match on Sat so the timings good to drop the bad news 🙂
I hope we are all going to boycott Jaguar from now on what with their surrender monkey scare tactics.
I hope we are all going to boycott Jaguar from now on what with their surrender monkey scare tactics.
The baby range rover is already cancelled, I'll be having a stern word with the driver about the next car he gets to.
MPs should boycott ther Jags too and go for something built by a proper British car manufacturer making British cars in Britain, just like they did in the good old days. So, Morgans all round!
Seems to me that the only way May can possibly now avoid the oncoming financial armageddon is to sit the shower of *s down tomorrow morning and say "Right! Enough *ing about now! There's two documents on the table in front of you. One is a Brexit deal involving remaining in the customs union and the single market - basically what we've got now but you can call it something else if it helps you keep the swivel-eyed loons happy - and the other is your resignation letter. Sign the first one right now, or sign the latter one and **** off!"
She won't, of course.
Financial armageddon it is then.
There is no chance of this being accepted by the eu
of course they will. They need us more than we need them, remember......
MPs should boycott ther Jags too
I think you are over estimating their commitment to the cause. The downsides of Brexit are for the plebs and not the Brexit supporting elites. Why Rees-Mogg company is setting up its Dublin branch and so on.
Its coming to something when its left to Len McCluskey to act as the voice of reason, state the bleeding obvious and try and talk some sense into an increasingly insane looking government
JLR is one of the manufacturing success stories of this country. Much of that is down to the dedication of a workforce who have fought tooth and claw for a future.
But now tens of thousands of decent jobs - the sort we will need more than ever outside the EU - are being put at risk by a government that places its survival, indulging narrow, extremist views, above the well-being of the people of this country. This is simply not acceptable.
So I say this to the Tory party, our jobs are not yours to play Russian roulette with. Drop your red lines and secure a decent deal, one that is to the benefit of the working people of this country. And if you cannot agree to put people before your ideology then move over and let a party that will, get on with it.
Oh... and apparently David Davis is about to resign....
Again.
Sure you are Dave
So, Morgans all round!
only problem, Mazda gear boxes and Ford engines.
Well according to raving nutter Owen "badgers moved the goalposts*" Paterson on state media outlet R4Today this morning, JLR can just import cheap bits from China instead of - you know - just-in-time supply chain from Germany, or wherever. I guess they will be scouring e-bay for knock-off clutch components and whatnot.
* https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/09/badgers-moving-goalposts-owen-paterson-cull
David Davis must have had more comebacks than Frank Sinatra.
@binners - I recently interviewed at learning establishment once frequented by DD. I inadvertantly said "I note that your alumni includes some of the greatest economic and political theorists of modern times. And David Davis". There was definitely some awkward giggling from the panel.
What really gets to me is that two years in the tories still don't have a position they can agree on let alone one that is acceptable to the Eu
The level of incompetence is unbelievable
The level of incompetence is unbelievable
In fairness it is pretty much an impossible task. Unfortunately although the people have spoken they seemed to have mumbled a bit and not said precisely want they want.
you'd have thought they would have had a plan before invoking article 50, hey ho you make your bed you better be ready to sleep in it regardless of the big steaming turd left by boris and his cronies.
Yes it's tricky. However to have spent two years squabbling goes beyond stupidity
because the costs and implications of any solution are so vast no politician has been brave enough to own that. Those wanting to leave can#t touch reality as it's so toxic and revert to expert bashing.
If May stands up and declares to have what they want will cost this and have these implications do you still want to go for it will finish her.
As a country, I think we desperately need another General Election before next March, where the main parties split into "Bremain" and "Brexit," fielding one of each for every constituency.
Or, alternatively, another "how long is a piece of string" referendum.
Sorting out this mess should have a cross-party group from the start, rather than wranglings within each party for personal MP gain and between the parties, after we all point the finger at May and tell her that she and Cameron have royally screwed this country for the coming decades.
I think that Danny Dyers assessment still stands up as the definitive statement on Brexit
At the moment Dave is rightly regarded as thee worst PM this country has ever had, because he got us into this mess for the sake of a short-sighted piece of party political chicanery.
But I think May will end up being regarded as even worse. The endless can-kicking, policy by vacuous soundbites, dithering and total wilful refusal to address the issue seriously will end up being the greatest dereliction of duty by a British PM, and quite possibly and World leader, ever!
I think that Danny Dyers assessment still stands up as the definitive statement on Brexit
Yup. It was at that stage we jumped out of the plane working on theory we could knock together a parachute before we hit the ground. Unfortunately currently the ground is approaching and we havent got past whether a parachute is the best idea or whether we should go for a wingsuit or possibly a helicopter instead.
Its not helped by the fact there are plenty of the brexit elites who are seeing the opportunity for large profits whilst making sure they wont be around for when it goes wrong.
Another shot across the bows from Business from the Guardian site:
Some of Germany’s most powerful businesses have warned that Brexit uncertainty is putting them off investing in the UK.
Germany Industry UK, which represents 100 companies, including BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Lufthansa, the train and bus operator Arriva and the steel producer ThyssenKrupp, said it needed “certainty and clarity about the way forward sooner rather than later”.
Bernd Atenstaedt, the chairman and chief executive of GIUK, said it was frustrating for his member businesses because they still did not know what a post-Brexit Britain would look like two years after the referendum.
“There is some reluctance from German business to invest in the UK with projects on hold because of the uncertainty about the future and with only nine months left before the UK leaves the EU, time is running out,” he said.
The can-kicking has surely reached an end? Mind you, someone noted that all these companies that are threatening to pull out of the UK are all based in Labour constituencies, so will the Tory's actually give a ****?
It should certainly be focusing Corby's mind, though. If thats possible?
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Mind you, someone noted that all these companies that are threatening to pull out of the UK are all based in Labour constituencies, so will the Tory’s actually give a ****?
It should certainly be focusing Corby’s mind, though. If thats possible?
The major victims of Brexit are mostly Labour constituencies which voted for Brexit.
Yes of course it's an impossible situation. Well, almost impossible (the solution is to abandon brexit). But the Tories charged into it head first and eyes wide open, the fact that they didn't think more carefully is not an excuse.
JLR can just import cheap bits from China
My brother-in-law and sister-in-law both work for JLR. Him as a some kind of product manager and her in buying/procurement (oh and she's German). I look forward to hearing their views on Mr Paterson's suggestion. I suspect they will be slightly less than complimentary!
But the Tories charged into it head first and eyes wide open, the fact that they didn’t think more carefully is not an excuse.
The vote giving approval to issue a50 was pushed through the House of Commons voted by a majority of 384 votes (498 to 114)
the blame is not just with the tories every member in both houses shares the culpability for starting this and for letting it progress the way it has. No insistence on cross party negotiation teams etc.
Not standing up and fixing a clear problem or at least trying makes them all as responsible as May, Boris,DD and the rest of that shower
the blame is not just with the tories every member in both houses shares the culpability for starting this and for letting it progress the way it has.
Many of them voted in favour of A50 against their own wishes because that's what their constituents voted, and they saw their jobs as democratic representatives. You have to admit there's a point to be addressed here - what should an MP do? Go with his or her own position or simply represent that of their constituents? I don't think their role is clearly defined, is it?
Of course, mathematically speaking it's not a good idea as we clearly saw - over 80% of the commons votes compared to 52% of the popular vote...
My MP voted to leave against his constituents.... power of the whip I guess
the point is that the MPs have a responsibility to not stand by. This is such a momentous change that little jibes at PMs questions doesn’t cut it.
Standing by and leaving it up to the conservatives should not be an option. They don’t even represent 50% of Parliament ffs...
Can I just say that I'm having schadenfreude overload laughing at the frothing gammons on Twitter
The sandwich that's been sitting on May's desk has now been picked up off the plate and now it is time to take a bite.
Fishing, same size industry as sewing machine manufacturing. You could not make this up... Total annual revenue from this vital British industry amount to about two weeks of revenue at JLR and other large UK-based multinational companies
The vote giving approval to issue a50 was pushed through the House of Commons voted by a majority of 384 votes (498 to 114)
Regardless of whether brexit is a good or bad thing, I can never forgive those MPs who voted for A50 with no plan in place.
Fishing is politically important. The tory gains in Scotland were partly on the back of promises about fishing
I think the SNP should take over the whole thing. We'll sort your shitstorm out but then we're off, alright? 😉
Fishing is politically important. The tory gains in Scotland were partly on the back of promises about fishing
And who was it who screwed the fishing industry, memories are short.
I would certainly agree that Labour is almost as culpable as the Tories. Slightly less so, they aren't in charge of the legislative agenda, but they have still been derelict in their duty.
You have to admit there’s a point to be addressed here – what should an MP do? Go with his or her own position or simply represent that of their constituents?
They should put what's best for the country over what people think they want, n'est-ce pas? What if their constituents want to abolish tax?
And who was it who screwed the fishing industry, memories are short.
Greedy fishermen, mostly.
Fishing is politically important. The tory gains in Scotland were partly on the back of promises about fishing
See Trump and Steel.... screwing over tens of thousands of people to help a tiny number because it sounds politically important,
At the moment Dave is rightly regarded as thee worst PM this country has ever had, because he got us into this mess for the sake of a short-sighted piece of party political chicanery.But I think May will end up being regarded as even worse. The endless can-kicking, policy by vacuous soundbites, dithering and total wilful refusal to address the issue seriously will end up being the greatest dereliction of duty by a British PM, and quite possibly and World leader, ever!
Yep - this will be in university political courses for generations to come as being far and away the most catastrophically stupid political machination ever attempted anywhere in the entire history of the world.
The original idea, the thought of deciding it based on a referendum, the way that was then run (with lies & breaches of electoral policy) and then the continuing pursuit of total economic devastation under the line that it was "the will of the people" is criminally insane.
The stupid thing is you really only need to take out about a dozen people to kill the idea off completely. Dacre, Farage, Johnson, Gove, Davis, Rees-Mogg, Murdoch - plus maybe a couple of hangers on/associates and the whole thing would curl up and die pretty quickly.
It goes back to the fact we as a nation don’t really know what our industries are.
we are famous for fish and chips so fishing must be a big industry.
It perhaps it is just much easier to imagine fishing compared to some cloud design service or it could be politically better to say we must save the fishing tradition rather than the call centers..
i can say I have no real idea where the UK generates its revenue.
The problem with fishing is that most fish caught in the UK goes for export, so can't really be delayed while custom checks are carried out, so need the frictionless customs that the fisherman voted against.
...and according to my cornish friend , all the fish caught in cornwall has to go off to a central eu fish market and then we have to buy it back.
Zippy
An urban myth
Tj sarcasm I think.....
He honestly actually factually said that to me as we were driving back to the airport.
As we had just shared his hospitality and we were in his car I thought I'd better bite my lip.
Feel free to go through my history as I was so gobsmacked at the time I had to let you lot know about it.
I remember when I was fruit picking in OZ we would sometimes ship from North Queensland down to the fruit market in Melbourne rather than Brisbane as a better price could be have then it would be shipped back to stores close to us.
seemed like madness but they did anything to maximise the sale price per box and the difference in transportation cost was minimal
the difference in transportation cost was minimal
Dunno if it is still the case but one company shipped langoustine from Scotland to Thailand for processing before they got returned as scampi.
A pretty good summary by Gary Younge of this whole chaotic farce
Rudderless and riven by Brexit, the Tories have only one ambition left
So on Friday at Chequers the government will do what it has been doing for the past two years: spend an inordinate amount of time negotiating with itself before producing a “solution” that is unworkable, only to take it to Brussels and discover it is also unacceptable. The problem is not just that they don’t have a rabbit; they don’t even have a hat.
Is there a single person who believes that by the end of today we'll be any clearer on anything than we were 2 years ago? Surely not even May believes there will be a shred of progress or unity.
All I'm hoping for is that some peoples bluff finally gets called and she issues ultimatums to the nutters to either sign up to a sensible option or resign, thus instigating the collapse of this utterly inept government, and then the two wings of the Tory party can set about the all out war with each other they've threatened for decades.
I don't have much more hope in Corbyn when it comes to the EU, but anything has to be better than this
Can the can (Suzi Quattro reference not deliberate) be kicked any further down the road or is this it?
I get the impression that as far as the likes of Airbus, JLR, Rolls Royce, Siemens etc are concerned this is the last chance saloon before they say "* it! Time to get the * out of Dodge to somewhere a bit less mental", and we start the rapid downward spiral into a dystopian No Deal hell that has previously only existed in John Redwoods head
Had Davis threatened to resign yet ?
I believe that the formerly disgraced minister Liam Fox has threatened to quit, thus improving our chances of getting a decent trade deal by 976.45%
Top Trumps are missing a trick here by not releasing a set of cards featuring cabinet ministers and their reason for quittage.
Top Trumps are missing a trick here by not releasing a set of cards featuring cabinet ministers and their reason for quittage.
More like the deck of cards the US forces had in Iraq. Who'd be the Ace of Spades in the Brexit deck though? J R-M, BoJo, May, Davies? Farage obvs the Joker,
We are at the point where the obviousness of this must start to be clear to more and more people…
https://twitter.com/nickcohen4/status/1015227587927388160
My local (tory) MP is a full Brexit roaster.
He's all over the news / facebook / local events and essentially all he ever does is shit stir to whip up the local Gammons:
"We must deliver the Brexit people voted for"
"We mustn't betray those who voted for Brexit"
"Brexit means brexit"
"Look at these people!!11! They're trying to betray Brexit. We musn't betray Brexit".
I have never, ever actually heard him define what people want from Brexit. Deliver what? Why? What does it offer to people in your area?
It offers nothing that's why. When we all end up poorer he can still say we delivered Brexit. Oh well you never said you didn't want economic ruin, we just delivered Brexit!!
Brexit chickens all coming home to roost
Come on Leave voters, you e all gone so quiet.. jambs, ninfan, turnerguy, deviant, cheek, even THM isn't here to tell us how great the Tories are doing
Anyway here's some for the gammons
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1015206409133350912?s=19
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1015223064555130880?s=19
The news is in. It's to be a specially picked cherry cake that we can have and still eat
It's a breakthrough. Unfortunately one that is simply never going to be accepted by the EU
got to start somewhere
Soft brexit it is then
Telegraph is frothing
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/;jsessionid=k0uy4b2ngvebpqfiqmgsffwavcbqwiv0/
Just wait till we concede even more to the EU
It's still not going to be accepted by the eu. It's just total nonsense
Why's it nonsense, specifically?
I can see some significant issues though - if Parliament has to argue over each and every rule for harmonization, it's going to be US style horse trading, we'll end up with people having to trade progressive legislation in one area for neocapitalist exploitation in another.
Why’s it nonsense, specifically?
FOM for farm workers and not bankers, and for engineers/factory workers but not hotel staff it all sounds a bit daft assuming those parts of the economy staying in the singlemarket are going to abide by the "rules"
sorry i meant Mobility Framework not FOM silly me
Brexit the rebranding exercise
Random Twitter comments
This would have been a good starting negotiation standpoint 16 months ago. But now? This is embarrassing.
On losing jobs due to leaving the EU.
It's something we'll just have to get through. Like the Blitz.
As it stands can I still buy my chocolates from Belgium at the same price?
Depends if they are on the list for goods to be on the free trade agreement.
obviously as it has taken 2 years to get to a position how long will it be to define all of the other policies and have those agreed.
If the fallback is we are in until everything is decided as a contributing rule taker it may make the Canada treaty seem fast...