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C and A? Didn't they go bankrupt?
Do they actually loathe each other?
A draft of Theresa May’s Brexit plan has already been dismissed as unrealistic by senior EU officials, who say the UK has no chance of changing the European Union’s founding principles.
from the Grauniad. It was so obvious that this ws the case. the 4 freedoms are indivisible
Since before A50 was announced th EU made it clear that it was all 4 or none at all.
still like a British tourist on holiday the approach seems to be that if we just talk more loudly and clearly they will magically understand and we will get what we want.
Has anyone else passed the point where this is now starting to get really really worrying on a personal level?
Up to now I've always thought that this was absolute insanity, but its seemed suitably vague and hypothetical, and there was always at least some sense of blind optimism that maybe calmer voices might prevail above the lunatics.
But its suddenly felt like this shit is getting very real. Now I think we're genuinely getting to what Fergie described as squeaky-bum time. And we have a bunch of squabbling incompetents at the helm, who clearly haven't got a ****ing clue what they even want, never mind how to deliver it. There is not a cat-in-hells chance I can see this ending any other way than absolutely catastrophically. And that catastrophe is looming large now.
With every day that passes it looks more and more like the headbangers are going to get their dream - the hardest of hard Brexits
And we have a bunch of squabbling incompetents at the helm, who clearly haven’t got a ****ing clue what they even want, never mind how to deliver it. There is not a cat-in-hells chance I can see this ending any other way than absolutely catastrophically. And that catastrophe is looming large now.
With every day that passes it looks more and more like the headbangers are going to get their dream – the hardest of hard Brexits
Well we now live in a world where Danny Dyer's succinct political discourse is about the most sensible thing said about Brexit in the last 12 months, given that this is now the world we are living in its difficult to be surprised by any of it.
And just as the bus heads for the cliff, BoJo and Mogg are fighting over which one of them gets to grab the wheel and press the accelerator harder.
If it is hard Brexit either through will or incompetence then it will be bad for a lot of people.
overall the country will go on and people will survive just like they did in the 70s and 80s.
I fully expect to die at work in my 70s (retirement will not be an option) assuming there is still employment from a easily preventable illness due to no functioning public health service.
As someone who lives abroad, for some reason I suddenly got very worried last week. I'm now looking into getting a new passport (no dual-citizenship allowed so I'll have to give up my British passport). I suddenly started getting visions of being kicked out and being forced back to a UK that is rapidly going down the toilet.
I do want to move back to the UK but this is not the way I want my glorious homecoming to go.
I'm just wondering how bad it will have to be before the majority of those in Scotland choose another path. I guess iScotland might be attractive to many of the Remainers in rUK too.
Has anyone else passed the point where this is now starting to get really really worrying on a personal level?
Yup.
I live in a village in Kent, not far from the M20. At the very least, I can expect it to become a lorry park.
My employer has cut jobs on the back of the referendum result, virtually everyone I socialise with in London is reporting a similarly gloomy picture of a shrinking job market and costcutting. While this might be seen as schadenfreude by many who don't have to work in London, I've friends in the automotive and aerospace sector who really a tad nervous that the government that they voted for are looking out for their interests.
If the Conservatives follow through on a policy that will make most of us poorer, then at the very least they can expect a 1997 style wipeout once the effects have been felt.
Unfortunately, it looks more and more likely that we're heading for a hard Brexit. I'm personally looking forward to it, but that's only because I like to see things burn.
What I most looking forward to is, once everything goes tits up, is reminding the people who voted for it, that it's all their fault.
'No, it's your fault for sabotaging Brexit, you remoaniac! Traitor!!', is the response you should expect when you say 'I told you so.'
Interesting point scotroutes. Trouble is a large % of the yes vote in the scottish referendum also want out of the EU the independence side being such a broad church
I for one would far rather an independent scotland in the EU than a UK out of it.
I think overall the eff up of brexit will lead to more pressure for independence
What I most looking forward to is, once everything goes tits up, is reminding the people who voted for it, that it’s all their fault.
To which the standad Leaver argument is that it's actually the fault of Remainers for not beliving in it, being so negative, not negotiating well enough, not getting behind it, not accepting that "they won, you lost"...
Can't win.
The oly logical option is to stand up and admit why the referendum was called in the first place, state that it's actually impossible to deliver anything meaningful that makes any sense to anyone and apologise profusely to the EU for wasting their valuable time then spend the next 15 years rebuilding the things they've already burned and dragging the businesses back to the UK.
reminding the people who voted for it, that it’s all their fault
Good luck with that - they'll be blaming Barnier and Tusk, or maybe the Maybot once the Gove/BloJo/RM axis topples her. None of it will be because it was the 'will of the people'.
Once we are out I will write to that **** grayling every day asking why everything isn't fixed yet.
I will annoy that **** into an early grave.
reminding the people who voted for it, that it’s all their fault
I’ve gave up attempting to discuss Brexit with the leavers, all they get out of me now is “you’re a ****ing idiot”
Once we have a glorious no deal the goods that I sell we be subjected to a 30% tax.
Is there a list of how much other everyday stuff will go up?
Do WTO rules supercede any other deals we have?
Is it just eu stuff that will go up or Chinese as well?
I can access my private pension in 2 years time.
If I end up on the dole do I have to dip into that?
More not at all suspicious info on Aaron Banks and the money to fund Brexit ...
Is it actually possible to crash out without any kind of deal?
Wouldn't we need to construct more customs infrastructure pretty much overnight? ... and this seems to be necessary under WTO rules?
The government has made no realistic prepration for this.
Surely the most realistic option is that this boring but enourmously expensive limbo carries on even longer...
Perhaps that's the idea, the Leave voters were, on average, quite old after all.
Yes its quite possible to crash out without a deal and right now its the most likely option. " nothing is agreed till everything is agreed" means no transition period even. Without a solution to NI let alone a proposal on customs etc acceptable to the EU then yes - we crash out with no trade deals with anyone and rely on WTO rules
Don't WTO rules require a hard border in Ireland which won't exist?
Has anyone else passed the point where this is now starting to get really really worrying on a personal level?
Yes - way past. What is worrying is the possibility that MrsJ and even MissJ may have their status as residents in the UK put in doubt. Without going into personal details, MissJ's citizenship rests on a decision made by the Home Office some time ago which is not dissimilar to the Windrush situation. If they should review her case for any reason she may be in bother. Unlikely, maybe, but catastrophic if it should happen.
Yes - WTO rules mean a hard border in NI
Think I'll morph into a fly and pop into chequers on Friday just to witness the "discussion" first hand
Who would enforce the hard border?
Will all our planes be grounded?
Will the door be shut in our face at Calais?
Will the country grind to a halt?
Will the shit hit the fan next march or 2 years later?
Anyone would think the EU negotiators listened to our puffed-up idiots saying 'threaten a no-deal Brexit and watch them quake in their boots', and decided that would work equally well for them...
Zippy both sides of the border have to enforce it
No two year transition
Planes grounded yes, all happens in march unless the Tories get their finger out and start actually negotiating the possible rather than their wishlists of unicorns and magic
This is on display in my local spoons, not that we need to be reminded of the wetherspoons stance.
Has anyone else passed the point where this is now starting to get really really worrying on a personal level?
Yes. The work I do is quite likely to dry up in the long run, although we are seeing work that needs to be done to re-implement systems that are currently handled by the EU. But I do work for a large global company so perhaps an internal transfer is likely.
Personally? Yes the recruitment difficulties we are having getting staff nurses.
That Weatherspoons post is like a metaphor for Brexit itself
In the future we’ll be serving drinks that are considerably shitter than the ones we’ve got on at the moment.
They may be shit, but they’re British shit, so everyone’s just going to have to suck it up and pretend that it’s all absolutely bloody brilliant!!
What was stopping Mr Weatherspoon from doing that years ago? If trading with companies within the EU is such a ball-ache for him why wait till now to do it?
Christ "Tim internal market Wetherspoons" don't doubt the mans ability to serve cheap beer to the masses, but he is not going to create high value employment.
Told you folks this shit needs to run its course and really create some pain.
Awesome - cheap beer!
That'll be handy if I lose my job in high performance manufacturing due to Brexit. Always a silver lining and all that 🙂
This is on display in my local spoons, not that we need to be reminded of the wetherspoons stance.
When do the Guinness pumps get turned off?
This time next year we could all meet to toast ‘Taking Back Control’ at our local Spoons with that Kickstarter 9.30 am pint of Carling?
Carling, Green King IPA and John smiths for everyone!
Yay! 🤢
perhaps we could all meet up and share some fine European beers on their doorsteps
but they are not stopping Prosseco ? too much profit on that .
Flat warm beer for everyone .
do we reckon Wetherspoon customers can read a letter that long ?
First they came for the wetherspoons pre lunch drinkers, but i did not speak out because I'm not a pre lunch drinker.
Then they came for the mid afternoon lunchers, but i did not speak out.
Then I couldn't get a decent beer after work and I had to have it imported.
To be honest, I live in Yorkshire - plenty of good beer here. Mainly from breweries Tim won’t have heard of.
But I still won’t be bobbing into Whetherspoons for a drop of claret even if he does keep on serving it.
but they are not stopping Prosseco ? too much profit on that .
That's what they call hypocrisy.
Anyone for a Worthington E?
Wait.
"Kopparberg has said that it will transfer production to the UK post-Brexit"
That seems monumentally unlikely to me. Is there any source for this or is it another lie?
Also,
"the 93% of the world that is not in the EU"?
How's that worked out, then?
And and and... dear god those last few claims.
What was stopping Mr Weatherspoon from doing that years ago? If trading with companies within the EU is such a ball-ache for him why wait till now to do it?
Absolutely nothing that I'm aware of. The guy is a complete arse.
An arse with an agenda and a cross to burn, it seems.
Also,
“the 93% of the world that is not in the EU”?
How’s that worked out, then?
508M population of the EU
7.6Bn world population
6.69%, so he's factually correct.
Maybe we should invite the large numbers of poverty line RoW inhabitants that make up a large chunk of the 93% to come over and enjoy a pint in their local Wetherspoons - the gammons would love that! They can fund this by bringing us stuff to buy, free from the restraints of such annoyances such as duties, quality standards and safety. Hip hip hooray!
I've tried Mongolian beer. There's a reason Mongolia isn't a renowned beer producing region.
The reason is it tastes terrible!
like to see those numbers ^^^ normalized to spending power
I happen to have the normalized spending power outside the EU North America China Canada Australia etc
= **** all
I think you’ll find that aircraft makers in Namibia and Afghanistan will be queueing up to buy all those British manufactured wings that Airbus no longer require
I've often wondered what the potential impact of hard Brexit would be overall as you hear random 'this is cheaper under x rules' from both sides and whilst my hunch is that the logistics at the very least will make things more expensive I've not seen a calculation. It seems a couple of organisations have made a stab at this now:
The Oliver Wyman report illustrated the point with the cost of Irish beef, commonly sold in supermarkets. It wholesales at about £3.70 a kilogram. Argentinian beef, which is currently £5.50 per kilo because of EU protectionist tariffs, would come down to £3.50 a kilo after Brexit. At the same time, Irish beef would go up to £3.90 per kilo if tariffs were imposed.
But as Brewer pointed out, such a free trade agreement on Argentinian beef would only result in a 20p per kilo saving on beef – not enough to compensate for the higher cost of imports of other goods such as dairy, cars parts or electronics from the EU.
Full report: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/04/brexit-greatest-negative-impact-regions-outside-london
Ok so all the hard evidence says Brexit is bad for thr UK, all the benefits of leaving are on the face of it conjecture.
So putting the Tory Party dogma to one side (there are not many Tories that truly support Brexit anyway) what is the financial benefit to the few who actually want Brexit?
oldmanmtb
For some its investment opportunities, for others its the chance to get rid of employment protections, for some its about getting american healthcare firms that they are investors in into the NHS. Follow the money!
So basically Enemies Of The People.
Never waste a good crisis!
Cameron and Osbourne used the post-crash environment to take a hatchet to the public sector
I firmly believe that the hard right wreckers like Johnson, Gove, Davis, Fox, Redwood are deliberately trying to engineer the financial crisis that anyone with any sense knows a hard Brexit would be. They actively desire chaos! As a cover for what they really want to push through
So as the pound goes into freefall, flights are grounded, and every motorway is gridlocked with nose-to-tail artics, they would use the situation to take the same hatchet to workers rights, the benefits system, the NHS, environmental controls and god knows what else.
You'd be hearing a lot of government statements saying "Due to the unique circumstances we are faced with no option but to......"
... privatise the NHS
... reduce corporation tax to less than 10%, or 0%
... slash the minimum wage
... suspend workers rights
....etc, etc, etc
Thats their true agenda! And always has been!
Theres no way on earth any progress will be made on this much publicised Chequers away day on Friday. Because the headbangers don't want answers. They want their Hard Brexit Crisis
So putting the Tory Party dogma to one side
For some its investment opportunities, for others its the chance to get rid of employment protections, for some its about getting american healthcare firms that they are investors in into the NHS.
Tory Dogma viewed through the lens of a left wing view of Tory Dogma...
This sort of sums up the issues for me, Our political parties (and the people that support them) can't help but see this through a short term partisan lens, they probably don't even recognise it when they do it. If there's one issue that needs to be wrestled out of the hands of the Conservative and Labour parties it's this one.
nickc - trouble is my post is true.
Look at Mogg - moved his investment firm to dublin to take the profits when the pound falls.
Hunt - gets payoffs from a major invester in American healthcare firms
Liam fox quoted as saying he wants to use Brexit to deregulate the labour market ie to remove worker protections
ETC ETC
Look at Mogg – moved his investment firm to dublin to take the profits when the pound falls.
<pedant>
The move wasn't to short the £, but because:
"A number of existing and prospective clients requested domiciled access to Somerset's products. Blah blah
</pedant>
I agree it stinks though.
I can’t wait to see Barry Brexit’s face when he’s told that he now only gets 2 weeks holiday.
nickc – trouble is my post is true.
TJ I took the trouble to already confirm that for you, if you read my post properly
Tory Dogma viewed through the lens of a left wing view of Tory Dogma…
I don't disagree with you about the Tories, my point was that Brexit is too big a deal to be left to the likes of the political parties, Sure; the Tories will **** it up, they are your disreputable uncle who's only in it for himself, but the Labour party are just as idiotic about it, only this time it's your Mum, knows **** all about the world and how it works but at least has your best interests at heart, but will just wring her hands when it all goes to shit.
Brexit needs to be taken away from soundbites and posturing for the leadership of the Tory party. If there was a GE Labour might get in, but given their indecision on it, after a few months they'd be just as ****ed up as the Tories.
If there was a GE Labour might get in, but given their indecision on it, after a few months they’d be just as **** up as the Tories.
Im not so sure. Stamer is an infinitely better negotiator than Davis. As much as it pains me as a notional Corbyn supporter, it probably would take long for it to be made very clear to him that if he wishes to retain his new found office he goes for least impact Brexit. Else it wouldn’t be long before a large chunk of the momentum that got him leadership swallowed its own vomit, myself included, and suggests that the Blairite/Thatcherite Benn gets a stab at it. And if he offers to tear the whole thing up he’d probably get in.
And do you know what, as a died in the wool lefty, I’d accept that. There’s be a good deal more unity in the country behind Benn than Corbyn or any of the likely Tory contenders. And given the damage done over the past two years, unity is frankly more important than left/right/in/out/shake it all about hyperpartisanism.
Talking on the Gove thread about the lack of talent in the HOC right now - Starmer is one of the few I would trust to run a bath.
No way on Benn tho - his disloyalty and attacks on Corbyn rule him out for me. He is in the wrong party. A natural tory.. The rest of your point I agree with - just swap Starmer for Benn
No way on Benn tho – his disloyalty and attacks on Corbyn rule him out for me.
And ordinarily me too. But in this scenario I can see his oratory skills converting many. After all, Blair was a Tory too, and it didn’t stop him😂
I'd take anyone who's electoral appeal went further than the student union
How do you both think that the Labour in-fighting that would occur in a Benn vs Corbyn fight for ownership of the Brexit procedure and ultimately the heart and leadership of the Labour party would play out in the Media/papers? And the effects that briefing and off-records chats would have?
do you think that
a) it would make what goes on now look as mild as a gentle teasing dispute over who's paying for scones at a tea shop?
b) no, I;m sure the papers would get on side, and everything would be fine..?
It'd be as bad as the Tories. Probably worse. Jezza and all his coterie are rabidly anti-EU. Always have been. They hate it as much as IDS and Lord Snooty.
i don't believe a word of his recent half-hearted platitudes. If he were negotiating with the EU instead of the Tory's, we'd be right where we are now, just for different reasons
It'd be like groundhog day with different protagonists
Binners - why do you keep on talking such utter bobbins about Corbyn?
I’m not so sure. One thing Corbyn has that his right wing counterparts do not is a sense of duty to the party and its grass roots support. IBS amd snooty only care for themselves and their very rich mates.
Some of us have been paying attention to Corbyn's voting and speaking record as regards the EU for decades. He is a hard Brexit fan. His pretence at taking the party line during the referendum fooled no one, accept those who think he can do no wrong. Note that I started voting Labour only once he became leader, as I'm close to his position on most domestic issues… but he is, and always has been, anti-EU.
Binners – why do you keep on talking such utter bobbins about Corbyn?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the present labour party are still polling behind the most shambolic, inept government I've ever seen in my lifetime, because the leader is so weak and ineffective he can't even land a blow on this shower
He's absolutely *ing hopeless!!! The country has never been in more need of an effective oposition, and instead they've got a leadership that are just enablers for the far right nut jobs of the Tory party
It boils my *ing piss!!!! Because its the working classes that are going to have their incomes and rights decimated by Brexit, and the labour party under Corbyn is utterly complicit in this whole thing
The reason IMO mfor Corbyns poor polling is the infighting in the labour party and the breifing against him by lkabour MPs giving the right wing press ammo. Its discgusting IMO how much the right wi9ng of the labolur party would rather be out of office than support corbyn.
He is too damaged by them now I agree. However its the right wing of the labour parties fault not corbyns - and his appeal actually goes a long way.
Corbyn is railroading a party that is against a hard Brexit into supporting one. Nothing to do with "loyalty to the grassroots"… quite the opposite. And he is giving this government an easy ride… he wants them to take the blame for any short term damage (he thinks that it will be only short term, I do not), but wants to be outside EEA or any other close relationship structure with our neighbours, just as the government do. Labour MPs that point this out are harangued by the true believers.
infighting in the labour party... blah, blah, blah....
Change the record FFS. Maybe 2 years ago you'd have had a point? But now...? Seriously? Absolutely nobody is briefing against Jezza other than himself.
The reason why the Labour party are absolutely nowhere is because Corbyn and his anti-EU acolytes are so completely ****ing useless. Full stop!
Never mind what he's saying (in his half-arsed manner), look at what he's doing! On every significant issue over Brexit - at every critical juncture - He's whipping his party to nod through a hard Brexit against its wishes. He's like a guerrilla wing of the far right. He is fully supportive of their aims, hence the total absence of any real opposition
I think even most of the Momentum half-wits have now figured this one out
But Vote Leave won [s]Fair & Square[/s]
with such a leaky ship cant wait to see the emails where VL discuss leaking this report at midnight after the England victory
The reason IMO mfor Corbyns poor polling is the infighting in the labour party and the breifing against him by lkabour MPs giving the right wing press ammo. Its discgusting IMO how much the right wi9ng of the labolur party would rather be out of office than support corbyn.
He is too damaged by them now I agree. However its the right wing of the labour parties fault not corbyns – and his appeal actually goes a long way.
Yeah, just like all those pesky liberals in the Republican party who are wrecking Trumps chance at greatness.
Lol.