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I'm one of the percentage who thinks we should take to the streets, overturn our political system, drag boris Johnsons entrails through the gutters then torch everything.
Who's with me comrades?!!!
Second referendum would be just as divisive, and probably too close to call. Could well galvanise the 'will of the people' populists as much as those who have newly realised what a bag of shite Brexit is going to be.
The total implosion of the Tory party, and possibly Labour too, would be interesting to watch, mind you.
don’t think the government is doing a good job of it but still think it should carry on as is. Does not compute.
Because they have a piss poor understanding of what democracy means.
I do see more negative brexit stuff from the right wing press pop up on my FB.
The papers can sway it if they want.
Hopefully a foreign press baron realises he will lose some millions.
So (according to that poll) people don’t like the decision, don’t think the government is doing a good job of it but still think it should carry on as is. Does not compute.
I expect a large part of it is because the propaganda machine never stopped. Every day people are being told the decision has been made; that we had a "democratic" vote; that the will of the people must be obeyed; that anyone who dares to speak out against it is deemed to be a traitor; we won you lost get on with it; I could go on.
It's not hard to see how a lot of people would think that carrying on is the "right" thing to do because something something democracy, even if we're demonstrably the only country in the history world ever to be attempting to impose economic sanctions on itself.
The will of the people is easily ignored when residents want to stop someone building a block of flats on the site of a house, or fracking or a rail line through your village.
**** this government and **** the stupid idiots who are too thick to realise the are being had over.
I'm not going to say I'm with binners but I have been saying for a long time that it will come to riots before it's over. We may joke about how the leavers are propped up by their zimmer frames but there's also a substantial EDL skinhead contingent.
The will of the people is easily ignored
The will of the people is easily ignored when the people you're referring to are the 16 million that voted to remain. Screw those guys and their will.
I think the riots will come, but only after we've left and even then it'll take a couple of years. Our economy will tank, but not immediately, borrowing will become extraordinarily expensive & we'll see general foreclosures on a regular basis. The government coffers (well, the government's ability to borrow more) will dry up and we'll enter a period of proper 1930s Germany style austerity. That's when the riots will occur. Of course the three brexiteers and voldermort's wife will have long since done one.
Though if Nissan up sticks up here then we might have more localised trouble sooner than that.
Its Norway or bust
https://www.channel4.com/news/by/gary-gibbon/blogs/brexit-white-paper-takes-shape
It baffles me that two years after the referendum, we still haven't even defined what we "want."
I still say the most likely outcome is that the UK stays in the single market and the customs union (the Norway option still requires a border, after all). This will result in having to follow all the rules, not have any say in those rules, but probably only pay 70 - 90% of the current bill.
But hey, blue passports, right? And none of the EU crest bollocks on the cover!
Anyone see this on C4? https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1011636382786314240
Sound is a bit quiet, so somebody kindly posted a transcript on reddit
US Embassy diplomat
"People haven't yet internalized, the economy is going to tank. I better sit on my cash.
The EU27 says, We're a club, here are our rules, you tell us how many of the rules you're prepared to accept and we'll kind of tell you where in the clubhouse you can go. That is not the British conception of what this is at all. They sort of see it as a negotiation between two equal parties.
But the British government is not interesting in telling people, you know, this thing that 52% of you said that you wanted, here are the range of options - there's less good and then there's very, very bad.
They haven't actually done a lot of, sort of, macroeconomic modelling of this, almost, like, deliberately. Like, 'We don't want to know, because leaving is going to be great and its what people voted for so lets not spend government money on analysis, that suggests that maybe people got it wrong'"
Seneca Johnson - Deputy head of economic affairs
"You know, growth is starting to slow down but what we're probably going to see is a longer term slower slide. Inflation went up from 0.5% to 3%, so it's quite a significant increase... and that's not inflation from a growing, bubbly economy.
That's inflation from an outside shock. So, that's the worst kind of inflation. That's going to be a problem.
This coming at the end of a long period of austerity. People are very, very tired of it they're very frustrated by it. And some of those longer term economic issues are some of the things that fueled brexit. So if brexit ends up not helping them, or not obviously helping people economically, that could have political knock-on effects."
Embassy diplomat
" But if, I think, the economy sinks, then that's going to put political pressure on the government. And for the people that voted to leave, they are terrified... because something they've been fighting to achieve for almost 40 years. I mean, its a generational struggle. They've now won and they're absolutely terrified that its going to be snatched away from them."
https://www.ft.com/content/3b583050-d277-11e6-b06b-680c49b4b4c0
Yet, as the economic historian Richard Roberts notes in When Britain Went Bust, his absorbing, lively account: “The years from 1964 to 1967 witnessed essentially a continuous sterling crisis.” From the mid-1940s to mid-1970s, Britain was the heaviest user of IMF resources. The word was that the IMF’s ritzy Washington HQ was paid for by the interest on UK loans. Britain had emerged from world war two with heavy debts and an unsustainable initial exchange rate in the Bretton Woods system. There was also the problem of sterling balances, private overseas holdings of the currency used to finance trade in the sterling area. As holders sold sterling when the exchange rate looked vulnerable, they accelerated declines in the currency.
Now consider the current situation.
I’m getting the increasingly feeling that this is all just deliberate time-wasting now. And all cabinet members now know, despite their posturing, that any final ‘deal’ will be whatever the EU plonks on the table and says...
“There you go. Take it or *ing leave it!”
Knowing full well that no government can possibly countenance the economic meltdown that a ‘no deal’ crashing out would truly involve, and expect to survive 24 hours
Its all fun and games when it’s all hypothetical, but how long would the country look at news footage of 20 mile queues of HGV’s at every port, as all the Car plants shut down their production lines and the pound goes into freefall?
I’m saying About 20 minutes. Even a posturing *-wit like Boris Johnson must know that?
Then the Brexiteers will have to account to both remaines and leavers, equally angry, just for different reasons, for their lies.
Do any of them look like they’ve got the stomach for that?
They'll survive as long as they keep blaming the situation on the EU "being unreasonable" for not giving the UK a free trade deal, no strings attached.
See the trouble is is the government caves and goes for a deal that saves industry but upsets leavers how does that inspire confidence for investors.
i mean in 12 months time they can pull out or try to change the rules. Or will the “deal” need to be time bound so this horror happens every 5 years?
Whatever happens, huge damage will have been done to the economy.
It will be a generation before the Conservatives can claim to be a safe pair of hands again.
If they ever want to have a majority in the HoC, their best bet is probably to push for Scottish independence.
I am not sure any of the current crop on either side can be considered a safe pair of hands... no one seems to have any set policies or end goal
See the trouble is is the government caves and goes for a deal that saves industry but upsets leavers how does that inspire confidence for investors.
Which is why the EU are so insistent on a back stop and not happy about a time limit. What ever the outcome this is going to take decades to fix.
To give some idea, look at northern/welsh steel and coal towns and look at how they haven't coped with the fall out of 1980's. 30years later and many towns are no where near recovered. As for racism, that is also going to take decades to put back in the box.
Blaming the EU has worked up to now, why won't it work in the future? One thing we do know is that there are plenty of deluded xenophobes who will always blame foreigners before looking in the mirror.
The will of the people is easily ignored when the people you’re referring to are the 16 million that voted to remain. Screw those guys and their will.
This is exactly the issue. If you offer a binary decision and accept it on a tiny majority then, whatever the outcome, roughly half the electorate will be pissed off.
The referendum result required a far more grown up approach than that our pathetic politicians have offered.
As for racism, that is also going to take decades to put back in the box.
Not it sure it has ever been in the box just people were not so vocal for a short time
The end of the Tory’s?
Really?
While in normal circumstances that may well be true - and i’d Love it to be - have you had a look at the Labour Party front bench recently...?
Noticed how they’ve been putting forward a bold visionary alternative policy....?
Thought not.
Why the hell would the Labour Party be considered any less culpable for this monumental **** up?
Corbyn and his useless, inherently anti-EU acolytes have acquiesced in this car crash every step of the way
They've acted as willing enablers from the second Jezza said Article 50 should be triggered the day after the referendum.
They won’t be forgiven for the upcoming catastrophe either
It does make me wonder how the ultimate end of this will play out?
because one things for sure... it won’t be through the usual labour/Tory ping pong once all of them have destroyed any last vestige of economic credibility.
i think this could all be putting in place a pretty seismic, and really destructive chain of events
We really are screwed!!!
Brexit won't actually happen. Most extreme case will be a BINO and even that's unlikely IMO.
The end of the Tory’s?
If only.
I'm no anarchist but I do believe our political system needs a thorough overhaul.
I’m no anarchist but I do believe our political system needs a thorough overhaul.
How do you force a change? Both parties are complicit and I can see doing everything that they can to block any investigation into how the referendum and the aftermath panned out.
So yes we need change, I just don't see the turkeys voting for Christmas.
See the trouble is is the government caves and goes for a deal that saves industry but upsets leavers
Is "saving industry" and "not upsetting leavers" of equal importance on the table here?
How do you force a change?
Sadly I have no idea.
Is “saving industry” and “not upsetting leavers” of equal importance on the table here?
Of course not. I would love to understand why our politicians "really" want to push through this absurd disaster.
If you offer a binary decision and accept it on a tiny majority then, whatever the outcome, roughly half the electorate will be pissed off.
I'm repeating myself here but,
Leaving everything pisses off half of those who voted.
Remaining and doing nothing pisses off half of those who voted.
Leaving "BINO" pisses off pretty much everyone who voted, it's what no-one on either side of the debate wants.
Remaining and pledging to address the concerns of those who voted leave? Immigration controls, more funding for the NHS, blue ****ing passports, that's gotta catch 75% of the electorate at least. No?
I would love to understand why our politicians “really” want to push through this absurd disaster.
That's easy. Follow the money.
https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1011731514491654144
The hole just keeps on getting bigger.
Remaining and pledging to address the concerns of those who voted leave? Immigration controls, more funding for the NHS, blue ****ing passports, that’s gotta catch 75% of the electorate at least. No?
Could be a viable strategy as the government could actually use the immigration controls it's always had but chosen not to utilise.
But that's also contentious though as my theory is that immigration controls were purposely not utilised in order to whip up anti immigrant sentiment in the electorate.
That puts the blame squarely in May's court for being incompetent when it was on her watch before she was PM.
And politicians generally, never mind the PM, don't have a track record of holding thier hands up and admit being unfit for thier jobs.
They generally just retire to the Cotswolds or have emergency meetings in Afghanistan when the heat on thier morals gets turned up.
Remaining and pledging to address the concerns of those who voted leave? Immigration controls, more funding for the NHS, blue ****ing passports, that’s gotta catch 75% of the electorate at least. No?
Could be a viable strategy as the government could actually use the immigration controls it’s always had but chosen not to utilise.
this was only a strategy just after the referendum. Once it got to A50 there was no climb down.
the bed has been made and it doesn’t matter that it is full of shit it is the only bed there is now
Could be a viable strategy as the government could actually use the immigration controls it’s always had but chosen not to utilise.
But that’s also contentious though as my theory is that immigration controls were purposely not utilised in order to whip up anti immigrant sentiment in the electorate.
That puts the blame squarely in May’s court for being incompetent when it was on her watch before she was PM.
And politicians generally, never mind the PM, don’t have a track record of holding thier hands up and admit being unfit for thier jobs.
They generally just retire to the Cotswolds or have emergency meetings in Afghanistan when the heat on thier morals gets turned up.
It's not even as complicated as that, they exaggerate the net migration by including people who don't intend to settle, eg international students and then pretend to be doing something about it by going for the low hanging easy to get fruit (students, spouse visas etc) which in reality changes very little and damages the uk economy (international students) and rights of it's citizens (marriage visas being based on how much you earn, creating a two tier right to a private life).
They created this mess by wanting to be seen to be doing something that they thought would be easy, where the optics looked to your average cretinous voter, like they were enacting real change.
this was only a strategy just after the referendum. Once it got to A50 there was no climb down.
the bed has been made and it doesn’t matter that it is full of shit it is the only bed there is now
Not according to the EU, 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.'
A far more sensible and diplomatic stance than our own mantra of 'no deal is better than a bad deal'
They created this mess by wanting to be seen to be doing something that they thought would be easy, where the optics looked to your average cretinous voter, like they were enacting real change.
Theresa May had a big hand in this.
How do you force a change?
Outside of a revolution you can't. The current system of government is in full control of what that system of government should look like and how it works. Democracy in a way is like a dictatorship - yes you can vote for different parties but no you can't vote to change how the system works so you have to have what you are given
And given that the parties are not really as different as a lot of people think and the back and forth changes made by each party are typically small and slow not a lot really happens other than the same system continuing.
The country asked that jobs and peoples futures be sacrificed in the name of freedom.
The proud patriots of Sunderland in unison stepped forward.
More Heroes of the British Empire are being created every day.
Here's another hero who used the vote to enrich himself off the fall in the £,
whilst for those that voted for him it mean inflation & less money in their pockets
https://twitter.com/mk1969/status/1012086482314711042?s=19
I know someone who voted leave and now bitterly regrets it.
He's presently got a decent, well-paid job at Jaguar Land Rover
Turkeys and christmas and all that...?
At least he will be taking back control of his DIY.
That report in the Echo* will just be the start. I'd be surprised if they weren't looking at pulling the plug entirely. People forget it's just a big shed with a series of robots and machines that can relatively easily be unbolted, put onto a ship and moved anywhere in the world. The staff are sadly largely expendable with very little handover required (you can tell this from the huge numbers of agency workers they continuously hire) . They'll wait until after we exit though as then they'll qualify for relocation funding to other EU countries.
Turkeys: Christmas and Thanksgiving methinks.
*bear in mind it's in the Echo, it may well be entirely made up and sourced purely from the Pennywell rumour mill.
Lord Ashcroft telling UK firms to go to Malta after Brexit.
As said above, just follow the money !
Its like Groundhog day
Iain Duncan Smith is presently repeating his ridiculous claim that it won't matter if companies like BMW, Nissan and Airbus pull out and relocate as most of the economy consists of small to medium sized businesses anyway
It really is beyond belief that we've being led down this path by these economically illiterate morons.
Its telling that theres only one cabinet member who's ever run a successful business, and thats the one who's most totally opposed to this lunacy. Phillip Hammond
And I know Jeremy Hunt is listed as owning a business, but using a front company to avoid tax while buying loads of properties with your inherited wealth isn't really a proper business, is it?
My small business needs customers who actually have money to spend.
It really is beyond belief that we’ve being led down this path by these economically illiterate morons.
I doubt if they are economically illiterate. They just don't care as it won't impact them, they all have their own personal benefits in being out of the EU but clearly they are going to mention them.
Did I read somewhere that Jacob Rees Mogg has jumped ship and moved his Hedge Fund firm to the EU?
Nothing like standing up for your belief's eh..
I know that none of them give a flying **** what happens to the little people as long as they get to make a few quid, but In the case of Iain Duncan Smith in particular, I genuinely believe that he really is that dense!
I think its safe to assume that all the more prominent Brexiteers will end up making a killing out of things one way or another. And if that involves dropping a massive bomb onto the countries economy..... well.... whatevs?!
Thats patriotism for you. Nationalism isn't what it used to be
My small business needs customers who actually have money to spend.
TRAITOR1!!1
You just can't see the opportunities. The ability to sell extra bent bananas and running massive border warehouses are just two of the business opportunities on the sunny Brexit upland.
Did I read somewhere that Jacob Rees Mogg has jumped ship and moved his Hedge Fund firm to the EU?
He has set up an office in Dublin, obviously following Ashcroft's advice and setting up somewhere in the EU to mitigate the consequences.
Binners, I have mentioned it before, but ask why a Kiwi who made a killing in the breakup of the Soviet Union might be so firmly invested in Legatum and pushing so hard for a hard brexit?
Some of the Brexiteers at least recognise that leaving the EU and the resulting economic chaos is a way of blamelessly instigating structural reform of our economy. As I've said a great many times, we should be wary that the government wish to curtail employment protection rights.
I think that the lesson learned during the 1980s was that all of the coal miners who were nerfed out of a job suddenly became successful entrepreneurs and rabid Thatcherites and that everything was sorted out in the end.
The scary thing is these hard right fruit loops are so detached from reality (as the rest of us experience it) that they actually believe all this Ayn Rand 'Creative Chaos' bollocks.
iain Duncan Smith being a perfect case in point. He is very fond of telling his own 'riches to riches' story about how he experienced a period of unemployment when he left the army. Yes, you planet-headed *, but not all unemployed people live mortgage-free in a massive country pile they inherited, with unbelievably rich family paying all their bills.
The way he likes to tell it, you'd think it was I Daniel Blake
*ing ****s, the lot of them!!!
If IDS ever tells the truth it's by mistake, I think you do have to be fairly smart to be that consistent
Ah..IDS...
His Curriculum Vitae speaks for itself: http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/12_december/19/newsnight_ids_cv.shtml
He was referred to as "The Quiet Man" by colleagues because "The F***ing Idiot" was deemed too close to home.
But - yay democracy, right?
Whilst I like the change in tone and stance in this thread, supporting remain, it’s telling that those that voted Brexit have little to say anymore.
Its cleary sinking in those economic downturns we all predicted are here to stay, loss of jobs and swathes of the U.K. in the grip of pending huge unemployment.
And the future ?
Well job interviews are already being smattered with the question “how did you vote in the referendum?” Whilst it’s not a question I really want to be brought up in an interview situation, it’s clear that the direction is that Business doesn’t want employees with limited outlooks and retarded vision. So, will this become the norm ? I think so as there’s nothing in any HR rule book that says the question can’t be asked. After all you need a team that works cohesively and progresses.
Well job interviews are already being smattered with the question “how did you vote in the referendum?” Whilst it’s not a question I really want to be brought up in an interview situation, it’s clear that the direction is that Business doesn’t want employees with limited outlooks and retarded vision.
Wow.
I'm not sure if I'd answer that. However I'd probably launch into an explanation of my views which would not leave any doubt.
Happened recently to 4 of my (ex) colleagues (and friends) as they were offloaded a week after the referendum along with just under 900 Contractors... and of those that I keep in touch with all but 2 are still unemployed and seeking new roles.
#brexitsucks
But it will come to all, hard questions need to be asked if you have any consideration of how you define your business and it’s output.
Funnily enough even leave voters arent so keen when the costs of Brexit are laid out
(scroll to end for opinion poll)
http://ourglobalfuture.com/reports/too-high-a-price-the-cost-of-brexit-what-the-public-thinks/
Well job interviews are already being smattered with the question “how did you vote in the referendum?” Whilst it’s not a question I really want to be brought up in an interview situation, it’s clear that the direction is that Business doesn’t want employees with limited outlooks and retarded vision.
Hmm, mind you any employer who googles my social media history would get a fairly idea of my position on this cluster****. Out of interest is this hearsay or do you have any more evidence that this is being asked. Not that i am surprised but the amount of fake news floating around.
Much though I deride those that voted to leave, I don't think its appropriate (or even allowed) to ask about your political leanings during a job interview. Even if the elitist arse within me is now thinking "what a wonderful way to differentiate the wheat from the chaff".
Much though I deride those that voted to leave, I don’t think its appropriate (or even allowed) to ask about your political leanings during a job interview.
But it would make a good question to understand a persons views. If a leave( or remain) voter can explain in an interview why they voted the way they did, it would give a good idea of there world view. Things like how much research they did, what factors they considered, how they feel the process has gone etc.
Even if the elitist arse within me is now thinking “what a wonderful way to differentiate the wheat from the chaff”.
It would be a great thing to do. You could even ask them why they think it is a good idea to leave and weed out any future racism problems...
Oddly enough, I don't see anything that says employers can't ask about how you voted. It's strange since you're not allowed to ask about any other personal information.
Unless, of course, Brexit is classed as a religious belief. Then it's covered.
That is odd. Oh well. I know what’s going on the recruitment criteria for my evil empire then!
I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable asking someone how they voted. I might however ask someone how they decided which way to vote.
You wouldn’t need to ask directly. Could you fill in the questionnaire with the following questions...
Do you long for the golden days of the 1950’s?
is Winston Churchill the greatest human being who ever lived?
Brown people? There’s too many of them? Yes or no?
Nigel Farage? National hero or total ****?
Isn't telling your employer about your voting a bit .... Victorian?
Oh wait
As Victorian as the hankering for a return to Empire. So rather fitting actually.
So, will this become the norm ? I think so as there’s nothing in any HR rule book that says the question can’t be asked.
I doubt there's anything in the HR rule book which says you have to answer.
A Red White and Blukrain Brexit.
We spend £500 billion to get rid of Eastern Europeans so that we can have Europeans from even further east.
Looks likes something is happening, conference bewtween Ireland and England coming up, and with the indications that the EU is ramping up preparations for no deal.
So have the grown ups taken control yet?
Well job interviews are already being smattered with the question “how did you vote in the referendum?”
…
I think so as there’s nothing in any HR rule book that says the question can’t be asked.
I'd hazard that it's potentially illegal. You're not allowed to ask about things like memberships or affiliations. Political affiliations would surely fall into that category.
In any case, I'm not seeing any compelling reason to tell anyone how you voted, ever. The whole point of a vote is that it's done anonymously.
Political affiliations would surely fall into that category.
It's not an affiliation, Brexit isn't a party issue.
Ha, stick that in your pipe you Remainer Snowflakes.....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44649959
"Theresa May said the deal was "an enormous boost" for the UK economy."
"The prime minister said the deal reflected the government's strategy to "build on our close relationships with allies like Australia" as the UK prepares to leave the EU."
Yippee.
But wait. Hang on a moment......
"The "Hunter class" ships, which are anti-submarine warfare frigates, will be built in Adelaide by government-owned ASC Shipbuilding, creating up to 4,000 jobs there, "
While the overall budget is £20bn (35bn Australian dollars), only a part of that will come to BAE Systems for the design and build of the frigates." (a figure of a few million is mentioned!)
Well at least that is something to be happy about..... isn't it?
ahem
"As the frigates will be built in Australia, BAE's shipyards on the Clyde in Glasgow are unlikely to see a significant boost to jobs."
and....
"..this looks like a design which was heavily subsidised by the UK taxpayer, being sold overseas, and wholly to the benefit of BAE Systems. It appears that the UK taxpayer sees none of the direct payback or royalties from that investment."
Is it me? Or is this classic SPIN?
is this classic SPIN?
Did a politician say it?
Did a politician say it?
Well it was leaked by the Australian, co-incidentally owned by News International....
Its not spin its complete bollocks...
Actually its a symptom of the fact that when it comes down to money and jobs those spending the cash make the decisions.
Passports
Frigates
Cars
Planes
There is a pattern or a prophecy depending on your views