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this will either be WTO or full membership.
Neither is acceptable to around 50% of the voters.
Whereas a 'soft brexit' isn't acceptable to around 100% of voters. This halfway-house option, whilst being the second-least damaging choice, pleases neither those who wish to remain nor those who wish to leave.
It's absolutely pointless, we end up with a deal (ideally) similar to what we have already only without any say in how the EU is run. We become rule-takers instead of rule-makers, we literally "take back control" by relinquishing the control we once had. It's farcical. The only options which have any point - for some value of - is to remain in or crash out.
Also, I may be wrong on this, but I don't think that we automatically qualify for WTO do we? It'd have to be agreed by the existing countries and there's over a hundred of them.
If anybody is going back to the madness of WTO and no deal then it needs to be explained to people, properly and impartially so that people are aware of exactly what it means to them and realistically how long it will take to get anywhere. Then you can gauge how many idiots the country has.
Latest attendance figures I saw for the “meaningful vote” march were around 100,000
I was up in town earlier - not for the march - but I saw the fringes of it and it was heaving. Traffic elsewhere was at a standstill. Couple of helicopters overhead.
So, the person at the front of the 'pro-Brexit' rally is wearing a Tommy Robinson / EDL tee-shirt - I can't think of a nicer bunch of people 😉
I can’t think of a nicer bunch of people
It truly was a missed chance to be selling shares in Unicorn farms and banana benders, while feeding them with magic beans.
WTO doesn’t sort out Healthcare, movement of people, NHS Staffing, security, policing, law enforcement, borders, Northern Ireland and hundreds of other issues.
I know many people who live in Europe and still voted leave.
the bulk of the country do not care about the issues you mention from what I can see online. They believe we can do anything we want or we can just take what we want.
One way to look at it is only 30% of the country voted to remain the rest either wanted to leave or presumably did not care enough either way to vote
the bulk of the country do not care about the issues you mention from what I can see online. They believe we can do anything we want or we can just take what we want.
Well now we are at the pointy end, if people don't care let the rest of us fix them.
The only reason they don't want to ask any question that could stop brexit is they know the answer
One way to look at it is only 30% of the country voted to remain the rest either wanted to leave or presumably did not care enough either way to vote
The other way to look at it is only 30% voted to leave and the rest either voted to stay or assumed that not that many mad people lived in the UK. Should the UK really be held to ransom by 30% of the population?
Should the UK really be held to ransom by 30% of the population?
Is is this not normally the way? A few people with strong or loud ideas drive something forward.
nothing has seemingly happened. People will only take notice once it starts to directly impact them which is of course too late.
I guess there is a Union for Airbus and BMW. Have they organised a march/protest against the government? They have been told they will be directly impacted but I have not seen and action.
30% voted to leave, 30% voted to remain - not enough to decide anything s should have just been a null vote.
Of course that would have had to be setup before the vote where the line for anything to happen would need to be over 50% of the population who are able to vote.
We’re ducked.
Wait and see. I’ll wait from abroad!
or presumably did not care enough either way to vote
You're overlooking those who couldn't vote for whatever reason.
Should the UK really be held to ransom by 30% of the population?
It's about 25% of the population. 17m out of 65m.
nothing has seemingly happened. People will only take notice once it starts to directly impact them which is of course too late.
Hence the government needs to take action now.
Stuff that has been seen so far...
Currency issues
NHS Shortages
A list of massive bills that are coming up
Impacts are being felt everywhere, people are up in arms all over the place, 100,000 in London right now, every time somebody asks serious questions about Brexit we get a heap of meaningless soundbites with no plan of action from those telling us to shut up and get on with it.
30% voted to leave, 30% voted to remain – not enough to decide anything
So presumably we shouldnt do either, right?
Well ninfan once you support taking the kids off parents you are probably close to cutting the baby in half.....
Come to give us some answers about how the UK moves forward with this? The brexiters seem to have gone all light on details recently (well for the last 10 years)
Come to give us some answers about how the UK moves forward with this?
Yeah, we leave the EU, as promised.
hope that helps.
I didn't actually vote in the referendum. I live abroad and had forgotten to renew my voter registration. TBH, I wasn't paying that much attention because the chance of it actually happening seemed so remote.
I feel quite stupid now. If there is another vote you can be absolutely certain all my paperwork will be in order.
I'll be voting remain, by the way.
So presumably we shouldnt do either, right?
I addressed this a thousand pages ago.
The result of the referendum showed that we are a country divided and there are a lot of people who are unhappy with the status quo for various reasons, some misguided or outright barking sure, but some potentially valid concerns too.
The correct course of action therefore should neither have been "throw the country under the bus" or "do nothing," but rather analyse why people are unhappy, acknowledge and address that, and attempt to bring about change. Immigration was a big issue, for instance; we can do something about that right now, we have additional powers at our disposal that we - that is to say, the UK government - choose not to implement. You can have your blue bloody passports too if you like, we don't need to leave the EU to do that either.
"Remain" shouldn't be the alternative to brexit, rather it should be "reform." Some people you'll never please and the more rabid brexiters won't be happy until we're living in Victoriana as the head of the Empire, but I believe that this is the solution most likely to appeal to most people on both sides of the debate.
hope that helps.
Not really, it's fairly meaningless and doesn't address any of the major issues.
Just heard from the marches.
The Free Tommy lot rounded off their day by attacking the police. Meanwhile, folk from the Meaningful Vote march are currently going round with bin bags picking up litter.
I know people who voted Leave to achieve exactly what Cougar is suggesting… they hoped a big enough Leave vote would shake up both our relationship with the rest of the EU, and our own system of government here… they wanted governments to put a hold on the UK further integrating within the EU, they wanted more opt outs, they wanted our government to make things more difficult for migrant workers… they wouldn't support "no deal" under any circumstances… some would still vote Leave to avoid further integration, and reduce migration… some are shocked at where we are currently heading, and consider their vote hijacked, and would vote against Leaving now.
Peaceful protest is all good and well but the most memorable demonstration of displeasure that actually resulted in a change was the poll tax riots. Mind you I don’t remember many protests after that until the second iraq mess but I would be happy to learn more.
as has been said if a million people marching did not stop Tony going to war what hope do a few thousand against the rabids...
I can't quite believe that I just read that.
The fact I can not remember protests really changing government policy?
there are only a few I can remember (or paid attention to) in recent years
poll tax
student fees protests
Iraq war
Only one brought down a government (a contributing factor plus an unpopular policy and the party also wanting change)... that being said I would not advocate violent protest but just standing in a square seems to do nothing.
Just an opinion and I would be more than happy to be proved wrong
This must be the only protest march that w€€k stain Corbin isn't all over like a cheap suit.
Wish I could have attended myself waving british passport with an EU flag sticker on it. Don't think it'll make one ounce of a difference sadly.
This must be the only protest march that w€€k stain Corbin isn’t all over like a cheap suit.
I think he is opening a refugee camp in Lebanon or something, so he dodged a bullet there.
@cornholio ,well over 400k on the Countryside March in 2002 as well.
@cornholio ,well over 400k on the Countryside March in 2002 as well.
Shh Flashy - we're not supposed to point out how the educated, pro-european metropolitan elite & STW bourgeoisie happily pointed the finger and jeered all the way while other peoples culture, identity and jobs were under attack.
it's OK ninfan we can discuss things like grown ups, got any further than leave the EU as a plan? Or were you busy on the Brexie march?
got any further than leave the EU as a plan?
- <b>Denial</b> – The first reaction is denial. In this stage, individuals believe the diagnosis is somehow mistaken, and cling to a false, preferable reality.
- <b>Anger</b> – When the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue, they become frustrated, especially at proximate individuals. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"; "Why would this happen?".
- <b>Bargaining</b> – The third stage involves the hope that the individual can avoid a cause of grief. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek compromise. For instance: "I'd give anything to have him back." Or: "If only he'd come back to life, I'd promise to be a better person!"
- <b>Depression</b> – "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon, so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one; why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the individual despairs at the recognition of their mortality. In this state, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time mournful and sullen. - <b>Acceptance</b> – "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it; I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, individuals embrace mortality or inevitable future, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. People dying may precede the survivors in this state, which typically comes with a calm, retrospective view for the individual, and a stable condition of emotions.
Let me know when you've reached stage five and we'll talk about future plans.
Well if Wikipedia is to be believed the countryside alliance aims were to improve services in the country and tried to protect local businesses.
That sounds all good If you ignore the promotion of fox hunting and deer stalking as well as their support from the BNP.
still didn’t change anything. There is no fox hunting and only people can choose to shop locally supermarkets cannot be forced to.
Let me know when you’ve reached stage five and we’ll talk about future plans.
Ah your still in the jump first then find the parachute plan....
their support from the BNP
Which was roundly condemned and unwelcome.
Bit like this, really,
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2018/04/nick-griffin-declares-his-support-jeremy-corbyn
There is no fox hunting
O......K.
U ok Flasheart Hun?
This all a bit elevated for you isn’t it?
meanwhile, I see Zulu’s shitting his pants agin. Always fun to see. 😂
I think ninfan is still in stage 1 Denial.
😜
Just playing with the illogical extremes of this thing.
Given how much of UK trade with non-EU countries is through EU trade deals that would cease with a hard Brexit, how much of the UK’s world trade do you think the rEU might stand to gain via a hard Brexit?
I’m just wondering if financially a hard Brexit might work for the EU - assuming they get the £40bn or so either way.
So ninfan, how do you PERSONALLY benefit from brexit? What has the EU done that has PERSONALLY impinged on you?
The rest of the EU , especially the ports in Holland, Norway, France which account for the vast majority of our trade by sea (& Ireland) are all preparing extra customs infrastructure in event of a no deal. And warning manufacturers to find alternate supply lines.
Our government are putting out the message of 'stay calm, everything will be fine' at the same time waving around the threat of 'no deal'
No wonder businesses like airbus, BMW etc are shitting it.
No deal would be a huge blow to the EU, but I think they see-
the shambles in government,
Theyve seen how weak May is, theyve spoken to her face to face & found her just as robotic & unimaginative as she's caricatured.
Sitting opposite Davis at the talks theyve stared into that brandy sozzled vacuum of original thought
They've just seen the saner members of the Tory party cave for the sake of party unity
& those Brexiters who put idealogy above everything else; Europe, party, country or the citizens of the UK, have shown the opposite.
I think the EU will risk a no deal, now that they've seen that the wreckers have the upper hand & that a decent trade deal would be taken up initially, & used as a springboard by those same far right brexies slowly implementing their low tax, deregulated, fantasyland.
Honestly Zulu has no idea, he just likes to parrot the usual crap but can't really say what he wants, it's probably too complicated for him.
far right brexies
Roughly two thirds of parliamentary constituencies represented by Labour MPs voted to leave the EU.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38769838
Wow Flasheart, you’re getting right in. You sure you can manage this level of discourse?
It is not a surprise that areas that are traditionally Labour may feel excluded from the then government so a vote against David Cameron and the establishment is always likely. Plus if you have seen manufacturing and the like moving away and someone says vote for me and I will bring all the jobs back the you do that too.
worked for the leave campaign worked for Trump.
trouble is the reasonable approach to the result to reform was ignored by Westminster and we are where we are
Want to see how voting trump helped people
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/us/politics/donald-trump-tariffs-trade-war.html
It's about there with the he lied to us bit of modern reactionary politics, maybe it's the internet that has saved us
Yeah labours problem (I suppose its because of their hi number of inner city MPs?) same proportion of labour members overall voted remain as constituencies voted leave.
Polls show that bregret is increasing, much more so among labour voters but still not huge swing, what is increasing across all voters is dissatisfaction with how the government are handling things
basically labour have a brexit identity crisis
sorry for the OT but this episode of Atlanta episode 7 is sill on iplayer & you should all watch it !!
1. Denial - we don't need a plan, this is so easy it'll all be over before the ink would get a chance to dry
2. Anger - we have a plan, and we're furious that you want to know what it is… to know it is to undermine it
3. Bargaining - we're having another lock down at Checkers, to thrash out many contradictory plans amongst our elite few
4. Depression - we'd have a plan already, but those pesky Remainers are everywhere, undermining us
5. Acceptance - there never was a plan, but who cares… will of the… blah blah… sore losers… sod Ireland… sod you all
Ninfan trotting out the 5 stage GCSE level analysis is frankly over simplification, if you work in health which I think you do this simply does not apply to all equally.
To quote John Lydon " Anger is an energy" and personally I have never got past stage 2 in respect to anything including my health and Brexit.
For me stage 5 is giving up..... well anything beyond stage 2 actually.
I like being angry it suits me....
The 5 stages of grief make a lot of sense, as for change it also does but as usual it is being misappropriated by people who cannot change peoples opinions by rational means
I'm guessing that when the dust settles, the Tory and Labour party, in their current form, will no longer exist.
Whatever happens, it will tear both parties apart. Look back through history and you'll see parties that dominated UK politics yet don't exist nowadays in the way they did back then, or at all.
I suspect this may be the only silver lining from the whole shit show.
No the real silver lining is when the great unwashed (I am part of this group) realise they have been really and I mean really shafted by the Boris Davis Fox Mogg brigade.
Maybe then they will get some political understanding.
Both parties have successfully transformed themselves and their policies to stay "relevant" (in power or ready to be in power) many times over the decades. They consume and push aside any third force or smaller party with ease. Most notably on Europe and racism. Both parties will stay the main forces in party politics… but likely that, for most of your life, neither will be a party you really trust or want to vote for.
Both parties have successfully transformed themselves and their policies to stay “relevant” (in power or ready to be in power) many times over the decades. They consume and push aside any third force or smaller party with ease. Most notably on Europe and racism. Both parties will stay the main forces in party politics… but likely that, for most of your life, neither will be a party you really trust or want to vote for
We're so apathetic here.
I remarked to my mate the other night that if this was happening in France, there would be another revolution.
We put up with any old shit
We deserve all we get really😢
So ninfan, how do you PERSONALLY benefit from brexit? What has the EU done that has PERSONALLY impinged on you?
I think the real answer is there will be less immigrants so that will make him feel better. Has no impact and he wouldn't even notice the lower number but he would feel better just knowing it.
Think that is the same for a lot of people that voted Brexit as when asking them they can never give any specifics.
Think that is the same for a lot of people that voted Brexit as when asking them they can never give any specifics.
It’s worse than that - often they give specifics that will be greatly exacerbated to differing extents depending upon the nature of our departure and the trade deals that may be signed in desperation thereafter
No one has told me what soveiignity means
In my opinion we've not had sovereignty since Suez.
The " Special Relationship".
Uncle Sam stifled The Lion's Roar.
Good old Hunt - apparently 'threats by business' are inappropriate ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44593095). You couldn't make this up!
No one has told me what soveiignity means
It's fairly clear, it means 'taking back control!!!??!?'
Basically the message is we are screwed but to be a bit less screwed we need to appear to all really want this shit show and prove to the EU we are completely suicidal and ready to crash and burn in an attempt to achieve mediocrity.
No wonder businesses like airbus, BMW etc are shitting it.
Nah they aren’t, it’s only business,if being in the U.K. doesn’t bring value to brand or just gives them headaches they’ll relocate.
UK Gov had 2 years to come up with something solid , businesses dont like uncertainty 🙁
Good old Hunt – apparently ‘threats by business’ are inappropriate ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44593095 ). You couldn’t make this up!
Thing is they are not threats, they are a business and won't hesitate to relocate if it means lower costs and fewer trade barriers.
They are already making plans, and starting to act in some cases which is a lot more than the UK government has been doing for the past two years.
Hunt got pwnd by Marr as he used his own quotes against him.
Obviously hunt is an idiot, but his position is that of the Brexiters & May
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1010842231673098241?s=19
and the more you look the more bent the vote becomes.
In other news the makers of “Where’s Wally?” are threatening to sue as the hunt starts in earnest for the British Foreign Secretary.
Where are the bloody Taliban when you need them, eh?
long way to go to hide from the Heathrow vote.
Comes to something when you'd rather fly into a war zone than be exposed as the spineless, opportunistic fraud that you clearly are?
Ah, discussing a trade deal are we?
opium ?
Nationwide search for a visually impaired bulldozer driver continues.....
#findBoris
MIA along with Borris
Lets face it would would have been shocked to see him there
In my 20s I thought people in positions of senior Managment were smart and clever.
In my 30s I thought I could be one of them
In my 40s I sort of became one of then
In my 50s I know most of them got there by circumstance rather than ability or inheritance or privilege.
The older I get the more I realise that the Moggs Boris Davies Fox May ( I can go on) are just basically "shite" at what they do.
"visually impaired"? I'd want the bulldozer to be driven by someone fully capable of doing a decent job of it!
Fully agree old man. I have come to realise that plenty of people hold plenty of power without having really done anything to earn it. Happens at work, happens in government, no doubt happens most places. It takes you getting a bit older to realise.
Fully agree old man. I have come to realise that plenty of people hold plenty of power without having really done anything to earn it. Happens at work, happens in government, no doubt happens most places. It takes you getting a bit older to realise.
I realised that as soon as I went to secondary school....
In my 50s I know most of them got there by circumstance rather than ability or inheritance or privilege.
The older I get the more I realise that the Moggs Boris Davies Fox May ( I can go on) are just basically “shite” at what they do.
What I'm finding now is there are a lot of people who are in senior positions who are there on merit and ability in business, part of that in knowing how to play the game which is a skill set in itself. Politics is a very different game that just isn't appealing to a lot of people.
Politicians have always been prone to being economical with the truth, but this modern populism of the likes of Trump, Farage and Johnson has taken us to a whole new level.
These principle-free, morally bankrupt snake oil salesman will just stand there and shamefully tell bare-faced lie after bare-faced lie, knowing full well they're telling bare-faced lie after bare-faced lie, with not a care in the world as to the consequences as long as their own ends are met.
Boris Johnson has known all along that Brexit is going to be an absolute catastrophe. He just doesn't care!
Like the rest of his uber-priveledged ilk, as with the banking crisis before, he'll be safely insulated by power and wealth from its calamitous economic effects
its all just a game