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Remember the RoI, population c4.7M and a higher GDP per capita than the UK.
But yes getting off track, Brexit does nothing to unite the union, just as the English response to the Easter rising did nothing to pacify the separatists.
And the Irish based their entire economy on attracting foreign companies through ultra low tax incentives - something that Scotland would never be able to stomach, absorb economically or be outright stupid enough to attempt in the first place.
Ireland is also heading for the cliffs again, considering how the world is headed towards increased levels of protectionism and a showdown between the US and EU over Iran.
Suggesting Ireland as a beacon of economic good practice, is actually exactly what Brexies would argue in favour of as well....
Remember the RoI, population c4.7M and a higher GDP per capita than the UK.
Yes, context is everything, if you want influence in a nation of 65million then 5 million people is a very small number, based on a fluctuating border Scotland is defined as a nation but realistically it's still a historic distinction, you can have the influence on the rUK that the size of your vote gives you.
What is the actual upshot of the Lords votes?
Do the House of Commons say that they don’t like it and tell the lords to stuff it?
I know that I should know how my government works but until recently I was happy to leave them to it but it’s very personal now.
ZippyK - roughly. But it means the commons have to vote again and tends to embolden rebels in the commons.
I note with interest that it is Northeast MPs that have broken ranks with Corbyn and asked for a second referendum - exactly the people the Brexies have been saying couldn’t support staying in the EU because they’d get voted out. Interesting.
The commons can overrule/ignore the Lords but basically it looks bad and reduces credibility.
The commons now get to to vote on on these Lords amendments.
With the government in dissarary over their customs union plans, theres a risk that the Tory unity won't hold for the votes.
With Corbyn absolutely crushing May today with some pretty simple CU plan questions (his best pmqs this year & May looking more desperate than ever). Maybe labour might start working to block the brexishambles
The commons can send it back to the Lords (up to 3 times I think?) demanding they rethink.
However, if that happened, the time scale is to short to go through the process, so the commons would be forced to accept the amendment.
Bwhahahah.
**** democracy, glad to see the adults in the lords in charge for once anyway. Bring on the benevolent dictatorship and let the proles learn their place again.
**** democracy, glad to see the adults in the lords in charge for once anyway. Bring on the benevolent dictatorship and let the proles learn their place again.
Given what asking the people did for the country your idea may have some merit. Not fully convinced yet, but getting there...
Lords is basically advisory. Commons can use the Parliament Act to force it’s will. Oh hang on. Advisory you say?
What’s the difference between a customs partnership and a customs union?
The words 'partnership' and 'union'.
An interesting argument put forward by Andrew Rawnsley that May knows that theres no way she can get a vote to exit the customs union through parliament. The numbers just don't add up. With Nicky Morgan, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke et al making it known theres no way they'll vote for it. So any commons vote on the subject means a defeat
So she's ploughing on regardless, to shut the noisy headbangers up (Boris, Rees-Mogg IDS etc) so that when (not 'if') the bill is defeated in the commons, she can say "oh well... I tried.... but the numbers just didn't add up. What a shame, eh?"
The lords know full well the numbers don't add up, so they're teeing up amendments so that a parliamentary majority can knock them down. Still a disaster (no voting rights in the EU), but essentially 'as you were'.
Whats needed now is for Corbyn to use his grey matter (difficult, I know), reject his inherent anti-EU knee-jerk, and advocate Labour supporting single market membership. Then this whole shitstorm is dead in the water.
Can you imagine the wailing that would induce in the Daily Heil, Boris and chums? What a joy to watch that would be, as the government simultaneously imploded
Brexiters in full on panic mode, now want to extend transition as they still can't figure out how to make it all work.
https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/994477709211459585?s=19
Yeah, it seems to be dawning on even the densest, flag-waving ****-wit that their grand project/pipe-dream is a totally unworkable shambles, so they're looking to get their excuses in early, and shuffling off
Brexit is a mess. Even its cheerleaders will abandon it
and with Trump threatening big sanctions on anyone working with Iran , and the EU determined to stick with the agreement , the UK is stuck in the middle .
wheres THM to remind us the grown-ups will fix it all
even the grown ups have given up!
The sensible thing would be for the UK to hold rank with the EU on this, which is what they seem to be doing so far.
Even if we did follow the USA on Iran, I think even the most frothy mouthed brexiters are beginning to realise is won't win us any grace with the trump administration.
Mr Hannan, writing on ConservativeHome, said he was often asked, "not working out the way you thought, is it?" He said: "To be fair, they've got a point." He went on: "I had assumed that, by now, we'd have reached a broad national consensus around a moderate form of withdrawal that recognised the narrowness of the result."
He backed being in the European Free Trade Association (Efta) - participation in the single market of 500 million people, but without the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.
Yes, that’s Daniel Hannan. In the Eveny Stannit (to misquote Eric and Ernie)
Discuss
Thanks Daniel. So basically, just getting rid of the ECJ. Couldn't we just have done that by ignoring its rulings like everyone else does?
Discuss?
the truth is out there, it's in 40ft high letters all over the place, it's really hard to miss and being charged with delivering any of it will result in a massive screw up. At least a lot of the leave leaders are spineless...
I may disagree with Hannan, but at least he has more brain cells than mills (Blackadder III reference)
It's interesting that in terms of volume and vitorial that the Brexit press has not really reacted that aggressively to the Lords votes.
If you remove the Rees Mogg John redwoods from the press the kick back has been virtually zero- so has there been a moment of " this is really not a good idea" among the swivel eyed?
Time for Labour MPs, members, voters, to remove the obvious block on us keeping a close EEA type relationship with our neighbours…
It's been fairly consistent over the last few days from these two
I don't disagree that the Lords might be in need of some sort of reform, (but this is hardly the time or the place). I must admit I'm finding it funny that now they are actually doing some damage prevention, against the interest of thier traditional support base, that same base is calling for abolition because they don't like what's being said.
Dare I say that our democratic political infrastructure is actually bearing up in a time of chaos and performing as intended?
Maybe what brexit needs is a new brand image to revitalise support, maybe something like this...
Is it thirteen or fourteen bills on the trott the Lords have knocked back now? I've lost count...
The momentum on brexit has well and truly stopped still, and we're about to see reverse gear engaged.
We're well and truly into 'you couldn't make it up' territory when it was Dave, lest we forget, who stuffed the Lords with Tory Peers who are now gleefully revelling in telling Theresa to eff off. For this they are rewarded by being labelled as Traitors and Enemies of the People by the headbangers., but I suspect are being cheered on by the less unhinged majority of Tory MP's
Whats not being remarked upon as much, but is equally as significant, is the number of labour peers who are also as happily waving two fingers at Jezza and the labour leadership when being whipped (or attempting to be) to vote against remaining in the single market etc. I'm pretty certain the vast majority of Labour MP's (who are pretty much all remainers) will be willing them one in that too.
Its 14 amendments sent back now for a vote in the commons. Every single one of which is potentially rubbing out Theresa's precious, oh-so-important red lines. No wonder the Mail/Express/IDS/Redwood fruit-loops are so apoplectic
There's hope yet. God bless the unelected old duffers! Hurray for democracy!! 😀
Democracy is as democracy does. 🤩
Or
Brexit’s like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.
Well, they're small and brown, but I'm not sure I want to find out what they taste of where Brexit is concerned.
We’re well and truly into ‘you couldn’t make it up’ territory when it was Dave, lest we forget, who stuffed the Lords with Tory Peers who are now gleefully revelling in telling Theresa to eff off. For this they are rewarded by being labelled as Traitors and Enemies of the People by the headbangers., but I suspect are being cheered on by the less unhinged majority of Tory MP’s
Maybe this is what THM meant by the grown-ups coming up with a solution.
I presume another BoE downgrade in UK growth expectations isn't worth mentioning here… already so low before the downgrade that it's probably not newsworthy.
The Brexit cheerleaders have successfully moved the narrative on from "project fear" to "voters knew they were voting to damage our economy and standard of living" anyway.
Lords is basically advisory. Commons can use the Parliament Act to force it’s will. Oh hang on. Advisory you say?
The Commons can't use the Parliament act. There wasn't a Queens speech/opening of Parliament last year(or this year either) setting out what legislation the Government wants to pass into law.
No queens speech, no Parliament act.
Dare I say that our democratic political infrastructure is actually bearing up in a time of chaos and performing as intended?
It certainly seems to be heading that way, in part
May has 'split her cabinet' to find a solution to the customs arrangements.
I think you'll find they're already split dear.
Ooh it's just like The Apprentice. Next week BoJo can head the Remain team.
"May has ‘split her cabinet’ to find a solution to the customs arrangements."
Even leaving aside the brilliant choice of words, it's just become an office teambuilding exercise hasn't it? We'll split into two and whoever can build the best spaghetti bridge wins. Except that the hard brexiteers insist spaghetti is an EU conspiracy and build their bridge entirely out of blutac then declare themselves the winners because it doesn't collapse as fast as you'd expect
It is awesome in its patheticness. Kicking the can down the road by a full 4 days - I wonder if it's just so that she could say "see you next Tuesday" to her cabinet colleagues?
We’ll split into two and whoever can build the best spaghetti bridge wins. Except that the hard brexiteers insist spaghetti is an EU conspiracy and build their bridge entirely out of blutac then declare themselves the winners because it doesn’t collapse as fast as you’d expect
Perfect.
amazing, nearly 2 years in and the government are still no nearer deciding what kind of brexit we are going to get.
Best of all, they are arguing over two non-functional alternatives that have already been rejected by the EU.
Has one half of the cabinet being sent of to discuss the 'Fairies and Unicorns' option, while the other half look at the finer details of the'Uber-wizzy Internettty Super-Duper, Space Age, Mega-High-Technology yet-to-be-invented' variation?
Klunk wrote,
"amazing, nearly 2 years in and the government are still no nearer deciding what kind of brexit we are going to get."
But when they do decide, it'll be The Will Of The People and everyone will have known that was what they were voting for
"Best of all, they are arguing over two non-functional alternatives that have already been rejected by the EU."
I'd like to think it's a delaying tactic to bring things to a real crunch..
Option 1 being hard brexit /economic suicide for decades to come.
Option 2 being a retraction /let's call the whole thing off.
Bit of a gamble seeing as corbyn has again said he'll whip abstention from his MPs, quel surprise.
The man is an utter disgrace, he's supposed to be leader of the opposition yet he repeatedly is towing the tory line by having Labour abstain from critical votes. He'll have to come down from sitting on the fence at some point, hopefully he'll land in a very thorny Bush.
But when they do decide, it’ll be The Will Of The People and everyone will have known that was what they were voting for
I think at least 48% knew exactly what they were voting for, so let's do that.
The man is an utter disgrace, he’s supposed to be leader of the opposition yet he repeatedly is towing the tory line by having Labour abstain from critical votes.
Hang on a minute. Being in opposition doesn't mean automatically disagreeing with the government on every issue. It's not a Monty Python sketch.
He isn't pro-EU and never was, so you could hardly expect him to take a hardline remain position now could you?
Most of the rabid leavers have at some point been pro Customs Union
Who has made them change their collective minds?
"He isn’t pro-EU and never was, so you could hardly expect him to take a hardline remain position now could you?"
I see your point, but he could allow his MPs to vote on critical issues, that's how Parliament is supposed to work, if a fair amount of whipped Labour MPs are too scared vote, then it's going to squew the result. It's not really democratic or representative.
He sounds more and more dictatorial rather than socialist, as time goes by. There's a certain irony there.
For the many, not the few, but only if I agree with it.
that’s how Parliament is supposed to work
Hah. Parties and whips are a bit of a problem when it comes to representative democracy aren't they?
Hang on a minute. Being in opposition doesn’t mean automatically disagreeing with the government on every issue
Exactly. Politics would be a lot better if MPs could openly say they agree with other parties policies. I have even been know to agree with some Tory policies (not many admittedly) but when I do I am happy to say so.
I’ve never knowingly agreed with a Tory policy. Well.... certainly nothing this inept self-serving shower have come out with (I see today they’ve found a shed-load of cash to throw at grammar schools, while starving the rest of the education system of funds)
Unfortunately, I’m one of the 48% of the population who’s views, on probably the most important political process in my lifetime, aren’t represented by the main opposition party either
Both the main parties will be rightly damned for generations as this shitstorm unfolds!
Top chops to dominic grieve.
Johnson has to be the most shameless politician since Blair (& I think Blair believed he was doing the right thing in his egomaniacal way, johnson just wants power)
I actually seriously think Boris Johnson is mentally ill!
I used to think he was just a shameless opportunist, and he is, but now I think the main problem is that he’s a dangerous fantasist.
In his befuddled, ego-ravaged, vainglorious head, I think he seriously believes that he’s Winston Churchill, and Brexit is his WW2. That he’s fulfilling his destiny leading a grateful nation out of the EU and on to the glorious second empire, and that he will be judged by history, and lionised, as this great leader
Now if only Theresa would step aside and let me fulfil my/our great date with destiny.....
Really good interview with Dominic Grieve in today’s guardian. About the most sensible assessment of the folly of Brexit as I’ve heard articulated by any politician. He’s definitely got the measure of Johnson and the rest of the headbangers in his own party
Come on guys and girls , it is starting :
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/12/students-plan-summer-of-defiance-on-brexit
Johnson has to be the most shameless politician since Blair
I am not a fan of Blair but I think you are doing him a serious disservice here. Whilst his relationship to the truth does seem somewhat relaxed its not in the same league as Johnson. Blair mostly lied by omission, eg 45mins if you take the most optimistic/pessimistic view of Saddam's capabilties and also hint its strategic and not tactical, whereas Johnson simply makes rubbish up.
In, sort of, I think agreement with Binners I think he is one of those really good salesmen types who can convince himself that whatever he is saying at the time/suits his personal aims is the truth. So having thrown in his lot with Brexit he needs to really, really believe in it.
Shock horror...
"Theresa May faces deadlock over Brexit customs rules, after senior politicians attack both proposed options"
So everyone's opposed to the rediculous unworkable plan(s) ....not just the pesky euoreans.
Make up your own joke…
Unicorns or illegal unicorns, that is the question.
its ok, everything will be fine
https://news.sky.com/story/red-warnings-for-uks-post-brexit-nuclear-safeguards-11374097
Not illegal radioactive unicorns !?!
We manaaged to conquer the world without nuclear power.
Turn the ****ing things off and let the lion roar.
Yes but the locals were only armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and dry guava halves.
Sod the power generation bit. nuclear medicine will be completely screwed.
May looking wobblier than ever at PMQs
fairly obvious Brexit is beyond the Tories capabilities (irony being that Labour have no better ideas)
https://twitter.com/gaurangmorjaria/status/996725265811279873
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/996711808747491329
https://twitter.com/Corbynator2/status/996729032917094401
https://twitter.com/JerryHicksUnite/status/996726647452786688
Well Corbyn can **** off for starters. Useless ****.
Did the government just nationalise a railway 😉
<p class="story-body__introduction">Rail services on East Coast Main Line are being brought back under UK government control.</p>
Transport Secretary Chris Grayling told Parliament that taking control would provide the smoothest transition to a new operator.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44142258
Not really a supprise that labour are no more prepared or competent. It's impossible to manage a cluster **** like Brexit well.
I think this is the first time that Corbyn has actually made Brexit the subject of his questions at PMQ's
not that it made much difference. The Maybot just ignored him, and parroted some pre-programmed answer about something completely different anyway
I really want to believe that this could be signalling a shift in policy from the labour front bench towards Brexit.
In reality he probably won't mention it again for another ten months, and Emily Thornberry and Kier Starmer will still trot out a similar 'have cake and eat nonsense' as the Tories, while Jezza and John get on with planning their socialist revolution
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binners
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I think this is the first time that Corbyn has actually made Brexit the subject of his questions at PMQ’s
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Nah he did it last week (& touched on it the week before?) May was absolutely flumoxed by it then too.
I suspect theres a team of tory spads already started work on deflection stratagies for her next week, the variables are how many of her own party will have tried to publically undermine her position in their own personal brexit missions to become PM themselves
Binners wrote,
"I think this is the first time that Corbyn has actually made Brexit the subject of his questions at PMQ’s"
You think a lot of things about Corbyn that aren't true, tbh.
If he could just continue having his weetabix and finish her off I would be grateful.
No, you’ve got it all wrong. It’s like this:
https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/
(I’m kind of surprised this hasn’t been quietly removed given how ridiculously wrong it is)
(but then, Dan Hannan)
I really want to believe that this could be signalling a shift in policy from the labour front bench towards Brexit.
Please, oh please...
Awesome how Hannans brexit wet dream up there is already way off the mark, before weve even brexited, no wonder he's changing his tune<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">(& of course blaming remainers for not coming up with a plan)</span>
It's funny how the brexies have stopped saying
"They Need Us More Than We Need Them"
Will this be another one of those red lines that the Brexees always threatened to walk out over, but won’t?
Again.