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Ok it’s the Indy, but even so...
Interesting - FoM in all but name?
French Blue?
Brexiters have demonstrated since June 2016 they have nothing.
They know they have lost the argument over the case for brexit when the likes of Johnson and Davis are threatening to resign if the UK doesn't leave the CU, that's how desperate they have become.
I love that David Davis is threatening to resign, as if that would do anything, he has been spectacularly in effective even by this government's standards.
Let's hope this is all a good sign of remaining in all but the official name, will still have an effect but hopefully limited to the tories getting royally screwed for the next generation.
Plus would be awesome to see all the old ones who are so anti eu get in a massive froth
I love that David Davis is threatening to resign, as if that would do anything
is the that the same numpty who plans to retire in 2019 anyway 🙂
However I think they (Mays people) will fold like a wet paper bag at the 11th hour.
i think this is the plan, it’s why I keep saying Mays keeping the plates spinning , they’ve got to get so many things in place to keep the country from just grinding to halt that I don’t think it’s possible in the timescales if at all(and they know it) but they’ve still got to pedal the Brexit shite.
All the silly things like having our driving licenses accepted abroad and a zillion other things like the certification to allow us to service planes assuming we can actually fly them anywhere, so many things so little time.
Good news for the Brexiteers on the driving license front - my latest one has the glorious Union flag on it - awesome!
Still got the pesky EU flag on though 🙁
who should they have let do the negotiations do you reckon
The only people who seem to have a proper handle on this are Keir Starmer and Nicola Sturgeon. can't really see may letting them negotiate tho.
All the silly things like having our driving licenses accepted abroad and a zillion other things like the certification to allow us to service planes assuming we can actually fly them anywhere, so many things so little time.
I've mentioned before that I've got a mate who is a senior IT consultant for one of the larger, more important government departments. I'm off out for a pint with him tonight. Some months ago they were all informed that basically everything non-Brexit related was being canned, and all existing staff, plus **** knows how many more they've had to recruit, will be working on nothing else but preparations for the upcoming shitstorm.
Despite all these resources being thrown at it, its just a given that pretty much nothing will be in place on time, as its simply an impossible task. Every other government department is no doubt the same
Just imagine how much this is costing?!!
Just imagine how much this is costing?!!
Billions an billions an billions an billions an billions but the will of the people must be obeyed.
IMHO I doubt if many who voted for it will be alive when divorce bills finally settled in 2064.
I’ve mentioned before that I’ve got a mate who is a senior IT consultant for one of the larger, more important government departments. I’m off out for a pint with him tonight. Some months ago they were all informed that basically everything non-Brexit related was being canned, and all existing staff, plus **** knows how many more they’ve had to recruit, will be working on nothing else but preparations for the upcoming shitstorm.
My mate's wife is the IT director for one of the Government's major IT providers and is still waiting to find out what they want and even if they did, doesn't know how they'd be able to recruit enough programmers from India and get them visas in time to make it all happen. Notwithstanding, we also have the Government's prowess at major IT procurement, because they alway manage to do that under budget and in time, don't they? Even if they could drum up enough pixie dust and unicorns...they probably needed to start at least 2 years ago.
Yeah.... I’ve heard the same. Lots of people on big salaries sat around twiddling their thumbs as nobody has a clue what it is they’re actually meant to be doing, due to the fact that the government doesn’t have a clue what they actually want them to do. A complete vacuum at the top. Which is surprising given the towering intellectual heavyweights presently occupying ministerial positions?
But they all know that the systems they’re using at the moment are all EU systems, and they’re all (totally pointlessly and very expensively) going to need to be replicated and then integrated.
As you’ve pointed out, with the governments impeccable record at large IT projects, I’m sure it’ll all be fine
My mates comment on the recruitment thus far? The wrong people doing the wrong jobs
One good thing to come from this. We know that politicians generally are massively overpaid and not worth the money. Next time they propose a pay rise I suggest they get minimum wage and the cleaners get the rest.
mrmo - actually have met quite a few, the reverse is true. To get someone capable of doing the job the market rate is probably much higher than they are paid. Look at what they get paid when they quit. Some of them are doing the job because they have an axe to grind / believe it’s a public service, some are not up to the job and are being paid about right.
You wouldn’t get me doing that job for that money.
almost every mp becomes a multimillionaire off their salary and expenses. We buy them big london houses on expenses, allow them to pay their families from expenses and otherwise profit from it - to say nothing of the bribes ( part time directorships)
corrupt, venal and very very expensive.
Igm, one question why are we where we are if our MPs are capable? They voted to trigger A50 with no plan. Remind me what is their job?
Your comment about being paid about right and not upto the job, remember that the median wage in the UK is pitiful
David Davies certainly seems to get paid a lot for sucking on the arms of his spectacles whilst saying whimsical things.
I reckon I could handle that.
Ooh - ultimatum from the EU:
It's possible that May and Barnier are colluding to force the softest possible Brexit whilst allowing both sides to keep face with their respective organisations - May needs to make it look like she tried, but they both really want a soft Brexit.
A catch up on patents… info is old… but that just means there should be no surprise that we're pushing on with it all…
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/02/28/patent-law-theresa-may-s-new-brexit-battlefield
…of course, the reduction in cost, time and complexity of granting a patent once across the whole economic region (including the UK) is still true for so much more than patents…
Hearty chuckle at Arlene Foster accusing Barnier of being dishonest 😂😂
And another vote lost in the lords, brexishambles proceeding as normal
Just a shame the idiots are dragging is all down with them
Apparently Leave.EU, Arron Banks, CA and the usual suspects were given access to information about Labour party voters by some political consultant.
So, Liam Fox is rattling on about how the 'unelected' House of Lords are trying to block Brexit, the Tory hard right are bludgeoning anyone who dares to doubt how beautiful and bountiful Brexit will be, whilst simultaneously opposing a referendum on the final deal. So much for democracy, eh?
Its almost as if when they were banging on about 'Taking Back Control' they omitted to mention the specific names of the small coterie of people who would be specifically doing that
Hearty chuckle at Arlene Foster accusing Barnier of being dishonest
Oh, it's even better than that! What she specifically accused him of is wilfully failing to see an alternative viewpoint
That, coming from a Creationist! Lolz!
some numbers rather than brexiteer ideology
Ba
Based on government estimates, in the long term the Brexit scenarios below would cut the amount of money available for spending on public services by the equivalent of the following:
- EEA model: £260m per week (equivalent to about 9% of what we currently spend on the NHS).
- FTA model: £875m per week (equivalent to about 31% of what we currently spend on the NHS).
- WTO model: £1.25bn per week (equivalent to about 44% of what we currently spend on the NHS).
- Government preferred bespoke model: £615 million per week (equivalent to about 22% of what we currently spend on the NHS).
http://ourglobalfuture.com/reports/too-high-a-price-the-cost-of-brexit-what-the-public-thinks/
Captain confused is being grilled by the Lords Brexit committee
This live blogging of it is hilarious
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/991339772776976389?s=19
Im thinking MPs should be breathalysed before govigi evidence like this
Davis has surely been on the sauce
Some epic comments on the express..
Presumably Ian is talking about his hero, farridge, and Rupert would definitely win in a 'who has the most chromasomes' competition.
Davies is a well known drunk
Hearty chuckle at Arlene Foster accusing Barnier of being dishonest
In fairness once the DUP are brought they seem to stay brought. I guess thats a form of honesty.
So, Liam Fox is rattling on about
His claim about Labour MPs in leave areas was an odd one. I am sure he meant to follow up to say the same about tories in remain areas.
I don't see anyone mentioning the tory MP claiming the founders of Legatum are persons of interest to the French intelligence agencies and Russian agents?
Serious question:
Given that this thread has gone to 45,000+ posts and there are very many entrenched conversations and rivalries within it . . .
Yet, the Brexit ‘conversation’ is continually evolving . . .
Is it time to close this thread down in favour of several themically based EU Membership threads?
Y’know, to make it a little more accessible?
EDIT: perhaps have a EU/BR prefix for subsequent threads?
Once again the cabinet have failed to get behind a single option for the future relationship with the EU - despite only having two options on the table and neither of those options actually being possible as they do not fufill the demands of the GFA. No deal that satisfies the GFA requirements = no deal = no transitional arrangements = utter chaos
Side note: has THM got a lifetime ban?
Not saying this should be a lefty echo chamber, but it's definitely a far better discussion without his non-stop bellendry
Government defeated again in Lords over Irish border issue.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-43951972
Bye bye brexit..
<div class="bbp-reply-author">tjagain
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">Once again the cabinet have failed to get behind a single option for the future relationship with the EU – despite only having two options on the table and neither of those options actually being possible as they do not fufill the demands of the GFA. No deal that satisfies the GFA requirements = no deal = no transitional arrangements = utter chaos
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There really is no option to solve the Irish problem. Literally nothing. So it will boil down to the lesser of all the evils
Cancel Brexit and suffer the wrath of the 17 million who voted for it
Piss off the north
Piss off the south
Piss off the EU
The fact the idiot Tories formed a soft coalition with one of the parties with the biggest possible interest in the Irish border is simply mind boggling.
In a few years there are going to be some fantastic biographies telling what actually went on behind the scenes during this shambles
There are several easy solutions to the NI issue. However small minorities in the tory party or the DUP will not allow them.
1) full regulatory alignment for the island of ireland. Very simple. the unicorn imaginary border can go in the north sea. ( of course actullly the unicorn border is impossible which is why the DUP will not go for this but apprantly the magic border will work between NI and the south). The actual people of NI want no border with the republic- its critical to them. Very few NI folk are hardline unionists and NI already has quite differnt laws to the rest of the UK in many areas - the real issue with this is Scotland would want the same - and that May and co cannot stomach
2) UK remain in a full customs union - norway option - the best and simplest option
3) full regultory alignment for the whole of the UK -
Some idiot came up with a load of 'red lines' and shes boxed herself & the nation into a corner.
What's bonkers is that after 23months the government are only now trying to decide what sort of customs deal we want ! (Ignoring that the eu will laugh the proposals out of the room anyway)
The level of incompetence is truly impressive even for the Brexiters !
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Side note: has THM got a lifetime ban?
Not saying this should be a lefty echo chamber, but it’s definitely a far better discussion without his non-stop bellendry
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I believe he got a ban. How long we don't know - he did send pms to someone after his ban but also there is a suspicion he tried to flout the ban by re registering in another name so getting further bans
Its a shame there are not more leavers on this thread and Jamba seems to have left as well - but I think the reason no leavers post anymore is they have so comprehensivly lost the debate that there is nothing they can post
there are leavers on this thread, myself included, but as I have already mentioned, the generic ‘whole topic’ infighting gets in the way of discussion.
And by the way; your classic ‘self righteous far right Kipper racist’ voice might shout the loudest, might call the arrogant shots . . . but you are wrong.
Britain is better than a xenophobic Brexit. The people of Britain don’t want Brexit.
’No Brexit’ is the best deal on every articulate level.
We do specifics here as well @bodgy … what specifically are you looking forward to after we Leave?
it’s definitely a far better discussion without his non-stop bellendry
Absolutely. But if he's reading this shit and then pm-ing people without posting then that's a whole new level of weird. Pretty sad really.
Lol. Stupid question.
I’m not looking forward to leaving, or anything after, because quitting the legacy of our combined European allegiance is a retrograde step. Brexit promises nothing more than isolation, poverty and increased beurocratic chaos.
As has been so wantonly demonstrated by the ‘chaos and retract’ shambolic minority Tory government.
The ‘Brexit’ project is a Far Right mistake, driving the country into a pseudo-empiricist ruin.
@bodgy, I thought you just said you were a Leaver… oh well.
there are leavers on this thread, myself included,
@kelvin - 😩
Ouch. Just shot myself in the foot there.
Three glasses of red and a shambolic edit later and I declare myself as a ****ing leaver? WTFing F?
#stupidbloodytypo
For the purposes of clarity; I whole heartedly oppose Brexit, oppose separating ourselves as a country from our closest network of trading allies and oppose separating ourselves culturally and politically from the other members of our geographical continent.
I am remain. Utterly, ardently REMAIN.
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"Deadly wrote,
Absolutely. But if he’s reading this shit and then pm-ing people without posting then that’s a whole new level of weird. Pretty sad really."
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When TJ was banned forever, he used to read the forum then PM me things to post on facebook 🙂 People are mental, what can you do?
Well, with the power of the new forum… you can block them!
@kelvin: BUT BUT BUT! Will of the people! Oh......
Good rant by james obrien on "the will of the people" below
My thoughts on what is happening poll wise in this twitter thread…
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/991947544849772545
Very simple. the unicorn imaginary border can go in the north sea.
Irish Sea might be better! 😉
Not saying this should be a lefty echo chamber, but it’s definitely a far better discussion without his non-stop bellendry
Always found his tone irritating, and as an aside he was pro-remain, but I thought the content of what he said was often interesting. It is a bit echoey in here now, I read it a lot less because it’s just a circle of Tory-ineptitude-bemoaning now!
good point well presented - Irish sea it is
@airtragic , we can slag off what the other UK parties are doing (or not doing) as regards all this mess as well, if you want.
Well I like the Lib Dem approach best personally, but no other bugger seems to!
The lib dem approach is reasonable for sure - shame they have no chance of power nor do they deserve any 😉 SNP and Greens are pretty good as well and up here they have power
Both of the main parties seem irretrievably spatchcocked between the irreconcilable positions of the two poles of their support bases.
At risk of annoying you TJ, I’ve posted before that I think the SNP’s position of this union bad but that union good is intellectually incoherent at best.
I think the SNP position is basically **** off you tory ****s.
One that I agree with.
That doesn't annoy me - its just political debate. What annoys me is the racism of those like THM and pontificating by those who do not undrstand scots politics. Understand what is going on and reach conclusions that are valid is fine even if it differs from me and the SNP do have some contradictions in their stance and membership however its fairly simple. In the EU we choose to share sovereignty. In the UK we have no choice and the UK actively acts against scotlands interests. thats the major difference. iS in the EU would be able to for example raise taxes on booze and not have to use the flawed minimum pricing scheme. iS in the EU would be able to use much more radical taxation schemes. iS in the EU would have a lot more freedom than it does now.
Scotland is diverging politically from England but is constrained by the UK union in a way it wouldn't be by the EU
At risk of annoying you TJ, I’ve posted before that I think the SNP’s position of this union bad but that union good is intellectually incoherent at best.
Not sure it is tbh. The UK and EU are different unions.
Crucially its about power and soverignity
Scotland has minimal influence at Westminster and Westminster has a long history of acting for England when its to Scotlands detriment. Scotland has no choice in many areas. sovereignty is Westminsters
IN the EU iScotland would have influence and any power the EU has is given to them / shared with them and the sovereignty resides with the scottish people
Basically iScotland in the EU would not have tory austerity forced upon it
For the record THM was not banned and not tried to get around the ban as he isn’t banned.
He's probably deep deep undercover on a secret mission
Crucially its about power and soverignity
Scotland has minimal influence at Westminster and Westminster has a long history of acting for England when its to Scotlands detriment. Scotland has no choice in many areas. sovereignty is Westminsters
Scotland is only an issue due to history, with only 5 1/2 Million people it's a very small place similar to Yorkshire.
The Pro Brexies and Rampant Tories do seem to have gone, it seems to be common around the place, those that are left are really those who are in the all or nothing camp,
Finally the UK democracy is kicking in and starting to hold the PM to account, hope this continues.
Ta Drac. My confusion
mike - similar size to Finland, Sweden, Norway, a bit smaller than the Netherlands, IIRC. Plenty of independent countries around that size - indeed I believe units of 5 - 10 million are as big as you can get a have proper representative government.
IN the EU iScotland would have influence and any power the EU has is given to them / shared with them and the sovereignty resides with the scottish people
Basically iScotland in the EU would not have tory austerity forced upon it
This is very reminiscent of the kind of airy statements the brexies were making before the EU referendum. “It’ll be fine, they’ll give us what we want”. How much influence, in a union where you’re about 1% of the population and (if you’re in the Euro) fiscal policy is set for 27 other countries (Netherlands are about 3x bigger than Scotland btw)? Most analysts seem to think that, had you gone independent, you’d have had something that made Tory austerity look like a picnic! And it’s not true to say that Scotland sends more money to London than it gets back therefore quids in; an iScotland would need to spend on those reserved matters that the U.K. government currently handles. I think the parallels are striking; at the end of the day both movements are about appealing to the notion that us, here are better off without them, over there. This feels wrong to me and so I’ll find arguments against it, TJ you obviously like it so you’ll do the opposite. Like most political arguments, it’s about justifying your gut instincts!
Its not about justi8fying gut instinct to me. Its about having the chance to have a progressive government..
Yes we would have little but some influence in Europe because of the way the european parliament works. Also EU membership is much less restrictive than UK. iScotland would have control of taxation for example and also full control of its national resources and would not have to pay punative charges to acccess the national grid for our electricty generation.
IMO there are two sorts of scots nationalists. Ideological ones who want independence no matter the cost and pragmatic ones like me who have no ideological attachment to an independent Scotland but see it as an opportunity to have a greener more progressive government - ie no tory governments ever again
And it is true that there is more money raised in scotland than is spent here. a lot of tax raised in scotland is reported in England and thus does not appear on the scottish side of the books
This makes the thread drift a long way tho lets leave it until we have another vote
No discussion on the massive amount of “really? are you sure?” from her majesty’s peers?
It's almost as if the Brexiters 'plans' are in a complete shambles.😂😂😂
Meanwhile outside my local train station tonight the PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN !!
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Scotland is only an issue due to history, with only 5 1/2 Million people it’s a very small place similar to Yorkshire.
Remember the RoI, population c4.7M and a higher GDP per capita than the UK.
But yes getting off track, Brexit does nothing to unite the union, just as the English response to the Easter rising did nothing to pacify the separatists.
I like the Brexitometer.
I think the Mash has pretty much nailed it as regards the Lords: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/house-of-lords-only-senile-old-bastards-in-country-who-dont-back-brexit-20180509164445
Isn’t it a case that even the head bangers have realised the final result will be a shambles so have gone off to lick their wounds while the remainers have no need to tell each other ‘I told you so’?