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One Conservative MP finally manages to get the majority of the country to unite behind something…
https://twitter.com/nsoames/status/972220427065012226
…his grandad would have been proud.
(Edit: as @kelvin noted yesterday) Comrade Corbyn has been on message in Scotland these past few days pointing out how EU rules on state aid prevent him running the economic policy he wishes including nationalisations (hence May should not sign up to them *) and how freedom of movement allows immigrant workers to be used by “unscrupulous” bosses to undermine workers wages. Now Dugdale is comparing Corbyn to Farage 🙂
* Corbyn neglects to mention that Labour’s Customs Union plan would absolutely require the UK to sign up to these rules as the EU regards them as part of the “level playing field” requirement
@matty 80% of the vote at the snap 2017 General Election was for parties supporting Brexit & ending freedom of movement (explicitly in manifestos) and leaving customs unions (statements by ministers/shadow minsters). It was only the Lib Dems, Green’s and SNP that where suggesting otherwise. Pretty clear democratic mandate to just get the F on with it.
@Kelvin well I hope you are right. Bring on WTO as of April 2019 (inc total withdrawl from Common Fisheries Policy) and zero payment to the EU too. Win win.
still does not solve Ireland and other borders ?
Maybe you need to have another look at wto rules .
In the last election people were either voting against Corbyn or aagainst May.
A lib vote these days is pretty much wasted unfortunately. I can’t bring myself to vote labour but the chance to give that **** grayling a scare is tempting.
still does not solve Ireland and other borders ?
EU have already solved their own problem with that, with an extensive report on how to avoid a hard border that completely undermines all their own posturing:
I guess you missed it, but that's old news, Jamba posted it while you were away.
It's unicorns.
Yep been posted several times, but doesn't address the issue of no infrastructure at the border and also somewhat ironically ( tho brexies & irony seem immiscible) amounts to a load more red tape than the present situation & ultimately is dependent on some sort of customs/market/trade deal that will have to reconcile with many of Mays bonkers red lines.
It's good that Brexies are starting to pay attention to the EU, but maybe next time actually read what you are linking to?
still does not solve Ireland and other borders ?
EU have already solved their own problem with that, with an extensive report on how to avoid a hard border that completely undermines all their own posturing:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf
I haven't read it all but I did skim it and search for a few keywords such as IRA, Republican, Violence, Vandalism, Dissident, Murder, Smuggle, Kill, Intimidation etc but there seems to be no mention or consideration given. It's as if someone thought they'd just look at borders anywhere else in the world that wasn't a warzone and thought, yeah, that'll do rightly.
It’s unicorns.
What, the EU are selling people unicorns now? Who knew? I thought that it was just the evil, philandering Brexies who were doing that...
doesn’t address the issue of no infrastructure at the border
So, you’re telling me that despite all the hardline posturing, the EU have, behind the scenes, been planning to sell the Irish down the river with a negotiated compromise after all ? Who could have guessed?
You really haven't read it have you?
Very good blog on the nonsense of brexit:
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/brexit-gets-silly.html
I had a quick skim through that report; to me it also looked like a hard border, but with expedited paperwork.
For example:
ePassports: The use of ePassports with biometric capabilities can facilitate the
faster movement of persons across borders. The international standard for
ePassports is governed by the International Civil Aviation Organization 53 .
This is a lame attempt to dress up the fact that it's just not possible to avoid a hard border.
But Corbyn isn’t doing this, is he? That’s the whole point. All but a handful of his MP’s were/are pro-remain. Party members and voters are pro-remain by a huge majority. Even his own lemming-like Momentum followers are overwhelmingly remainers
But Corbyn is doing what he’s always done….. ignoring all of them and just representing his own personal anti-EU opinion
Really? You really think he can ignore all the above and still expect to be PM? Where are his votes coming from? Could it be that a decent amount of working class potential labour voters are leavers so the path to power requires subduing both sides?
I’m remain and a left wing leaning labour voter so no reason to cause a fuss but these threads have a habit of disappearing up the same posters arses just so they can disagree with others. Makes for a tedious thread and tedious forum. At least THM seems to have stopped fouling the forum.
The border issue is proper unicorns. It’s patently impossible for any border to be less restrictive from a red tape and infrastructure perspective than the current one. Yet, if we leave the EU then there will have to be one, in what is, for anyone with memory and half a brain, a rather unpleasant paramilitary war zone. Good luck with that. At least I won’t be in Manchester when they blow it up this time, and I’ve left school so bomb threats there won’t affect me.
Dramatic? Yes. But this is what the IRA and others did, and those dismissing this out of hand really need to read some history books.
Then we have the bollocks about public ownership, which is simply that: bollocks. It’s been done to death on this thread, so unless Jamby and Ninfan would like to bring new evidence to the table then please stop repeating it.
And yes, Corbyn is treading a fine line. But it’s one he has no choice in. Everyone underestimated the numbers labour haemorrhaged to the kippers, so treading an ambiguous line is from some perspectives sound politically at present, even if it’s very frustrating for left leaning europhiles such as myself. He’s not the PM, he has that freedom. To win an election he needs over 50% of the population (give or take) to vote for him. 52% of them voted to leave. Sure, probably fewer would now, but nonetheless a large proportion still would, and he needs a not insignificant number of those to win an election. In those terms, it would be one hell of a risk to run on a overtly europhile remain policy, and if he did don’t win, we’d still be leaving, and the Tories would be in power.
You only need about 30% of the population to vote your party into government
Well that’s patently false: both Labour and the Tories got over 30% at the last election and neither won outright.
It is a bit more than 30, and I mean a bit more. The disfunction nature of FPTP means you never need 50%+1 to win, you just need to have your voters in the right consituencies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_elections_overview
Good link perditus.
Sadly a good chunk of leave voters & every brexiter politician appears to have their head in the sand!
Yup, good link, perditus. At what point can queenie go “stop that, it’s silly!”?
This tweet from the Luxembourg PM sums it up quite nicely
Lux PM Bettel: "They were in with a load of opt-outs. Now they are out, and want a load of opt-ins.”
Damn EU… stopping member states trading with the rest of the world…
https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1GM088
(Reuters) - French and Indian companies signed contracts worth 13 billion euros ($16 billion) on the first day of President Emmanuel Macron's visit to India on Saturday, the French presidency said in a statement.
think what he could have done under WTO rules 😉
That's a pretty crazy "ban", isn't it.
After a long ride this afternoon, mostly in the rain, (107 km and 1397 m of ascent - yay for me) I think post Brexit UK (meaning really engerlund) should rename itself to better reflect its new status in the world and the rest of the world's true and proper perception of it. So from Brexit day next year the UK will henceforth be renamed simply David Brent and its subjects as the Brentish and queenie will be Queen of the Brents I am off to start one of those petition things.
With a motto, yes it's shit, we knew it would be shit but we did it anyway
But won't he have to leave the eu to do that?
Never mind snowflakes France describing itself as business friendly is an offence under the Trades Description Act 🙂 At least Macron has got the joke on deficit reduction etc and is planning €10bn in privatisations. France does plenty of global trade, they sell Saudi 4 times as much military hardware as do we.
A reminder on the NI border from the head of UK customs, no need for anything on the border in any circumstances
Ah more propaganda from brexit central, who do you trust more Robert Mugabe or brexit central?
Jamba, can we have a quote from the head of UK customs about whether CDS will be ready for your favoured "WTO rules" scenario? 12 months 20 days to go… While you're at it, ask him how WCO conventions would be satisfied by trading without an agreement with the EU/EEA and without a customs border between us and them?
A reminder on the NI border from the head of UK customs, no need for anything on the border in any circumstances
Care to explain why this isn’t complete horseshit? Can’t wait to see the DM et al. go apoplectic when “floods of economic migrants pour into the country whilst simultaneously both scrounging welfare and taking all our jobs”. After all, I thought one of the key tenets of Brexit was us “regaining control of our borders”.
This is just blatantly obvious stuff. I don’t mind an alternative view point, but it’s helpful if there’s an ounce of logic to support it, which clearly there isn’t here.
You're years out of date on how difficult it is to set up and run a business in France, Jamba. The "Micro" system couldn't be easier - junior uses it. I've a challenge for you, find a country where it's easier to start a business and then pay all ypur tax and social security. Being objective you need to find somewhere with less than one declaration to start a business and less than four income declations a year with no formal accounting simply a payment of 25% of your income each quarter to cover all tax and social security. Depending on what you do you may have to pay an additional local professional tax but in the case of ski instructor that's zero.
It's worth watching the Benn / HMRC guy video with the sound off and looking at the body language, especially when the HMRC guy concludes his evidence
Oh dear, I've been pulled into this thread 🙁
Wow. That video is awful. It starts with the premise that Hilary is fundamentally untrustworthy, and that other bloke is. Really shamelessly manipulative. And why are there cuts in between the questions and answers?
And he says his measures would cover 'the vast majority of trade'. So basically, everyone who wants to play by the rules can do so, but that's not what border infrastructure is for is it?
I'm trying not to join in the derision Jam but you are making it very difficult to do. Seriously, take those Brexit-coloured glasses off.
France's deal with india compared to this
Just highlights the deluded isolationism of Brexit
And more good news. I particularly enjoyed the part about the UK being a guinea pig for a harsh new US trade policy.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/uk-must-concede-everything-for-us-trade-deal-1-4703683
"This is what your bullshit xenophobia and bigotry inevitably leads to"
I'm not sure this adds to the the debate or if it undermines the argument for remaining in the EU, given your view of the target audience.
I’m not sure this adds to the the debate or if it undermines the argument for remaining in the EU, given your view of the target audience.
I think it’s more a warning of where populist policies of “otherisms” can lead to.
Stuart lee said it better
Vince cable wasn't wrong either.
Scapegoating immigrants or the EU for our own shitbag politicians incompetence has a short lifespan of we actually leave
So it's costing billions & creating ever more red tape & beuracracy to make the country poorer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43372084
And that is news? I think we covered that before page 10
Disgraceful post @perditus. Truly disgraceful.
Just so you understand my point of view my father in laws twin brothers were sent to Dr Mengele
It’s quite clear that irrespective of how much of the brexit vote was underpinned by racism and nostalgia, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by pointing this out. People have a great facility to convince themselves that they acted on the most exemplary of motives, and when you accuse someone of bigotry the one response you’ll never get is “oh yes I can see you’re right, I’d better change my mind”.
Pointing out that brexit isn’t working and cannot possibly work in the way that they want, on the other hand, may have some chance of convincing them.
Jamba - I don’t mean this in a nasty way, more a bewildered way, but based on what you posted, I can not understand your point of view. It seems totally internally inconsistent. Have you looked at the other supporters of Brexit?
Slow down and look round, ask yourself if Britain First etc, or Farage with his thinly veiled reworking of Nazi propaganda posters are really the folk you wish to align yourself with.
If that’s what happened to your in-laws (and it was horrific the things that happened) then I do not understand your position. Sorry.
Pointing out that brexit isn’t working and cannot possibly work in the way that they want, on the other hand, may have some chance of convincing them.
Given the levels of cognitive dissonance presented by leavers, I suspect you'd almost have more chance of someone accepting that they're a bigot.
If that’s what happened to your in-laws (and it was horrific the things that happened) then I do not understand your position. Sorry.
This. It would pay to look at the history of the 10-20 years preceding that photo, and compare that with where we are now. Insular nationalism has a rather unhappy history.
Don' forget that Jamba has expressed support for the French FN, read this thread for the period of the French elections and the joy he expressed at their results for confirmation. Once Fillon was eliminated he was right behind Marine Le Pen. Her father, the founder of the FN Jean Marie LePen, has been prosecuted for calling the holocaust "a detail of history" thus trying to rewrite history. The FN is xenophobic and anti-semitic.
Good to see as strong members of the EU we can expect support from the other member states in our current travails with Russia (sorry brexies for using a foreign word)
Don’ forget that Jamba has expressed support for the French FN
Ah yes, I remember that.
Definitely a case of "doth protest too much" going on, Jamby.
”they sell Saudi 4 times as much military hardware as do we.”
This isn’t something to admire you know....
It is ok, the Front National are about to change name to be less racist.
"One nation" perhaps?
So Brexit is going to cost EU 27 businesses 35 billion. The population is 443 million so that's about 8 euros per EU27 citizen. Brexit will cost the UK 30 billion for a population of 65 million (2015) si that's 46 euros per UK citizen. Try putting positive spin on that.
The EU27 meet in ten day's time, I'd love to be a fly on the wall.
Not only just 46 Euros each, but we get blue passports, more brown people and maybe unicorns....
Try putting positive spin on that.
Frankly if you can't spare 47 Euro's you shouldn't be here and are probably jobless scum. It will all be made better by the lower yacht taxes.
If the question was would you pay an extra £42 in VED what would the answer be?
I drive an electric car.
In France.... you just need to find 8 Euro in change somewhere
TYpical lazy stereotype from Vince Cable, which has been laughably amplified on here, illustrative of why LibDems seem to be stuck on 7%, one third of ethnic minority voters voted for Brexit.
"Brexit vote wasn't against immigration."
"How about a new relationship with the EU, as a third country, but keeping the four freedoms on the table?"
"That would betray the Brexit voters"
"Why…?"
"The majority of them voted on immigration issues."
…infinite loop…
Was that a reason mefty or just a list of unrelated statements?
How many of the 17 million voted because of immigration?
illustrative of why LibDems seem to be stuck on 7%
Stop talking out of your arse.
Just highlights the deluded isolationism of Brexit
But whilst India still wants to get away with exploiting the British immigration system, Australia looks like it just wants streamlined access for buisness people. I worked at an Indian pharmaceutical company based in the UK, they employed 90 percent tier two visa or spouses of tier 2 visa workers. They employed them on the minimum needed to get them into the country, then worked them over 70 hours a week under the threat of sending them home. They blackmailed the workers into producing drugs that were a danger to the patient.
I am fine with increased Aussie immigration though. At the very least it would hopefully be reciprocal in terms of visa opportunities.
"Edukator
Don’ forget that Jamba has expressed support for the French FN"
He defended literal nazis in America, murdering people
I am fine with increased Aussie immigration though. At the very least it would hopefully be reciprocal in terms of visa opportunities.
Quite a large number of Aussies can (until the axe falls) come to the EU due to having UK/EU relatives, makes a bit of sense trying to expand and maintain that. Given the Tories have consistently stated they want immigration down about the 10k level that is a very small number of reciprocal visa opportunities that would be available.
I worked at an Indian pharmaceutical company based in the UK, they employed 90 percent tier two visa or spouses of tier 2 visa workers. They employed them on the minimum needed to get them into the country, then worked them over 70 hours a week under the threat of sending them home. They blackmailed the workers into producing drugs that were a danger to the patient.
Im assuming you reported this to the authorities!?!
30 billion divided by 70 million is over 400 quid for every person not 40. And 30 billion is a ridiculously small estimate.
You're right I'm wrong. I should use a calculator rather than doing it in my head at my age. And even that wouldn't help as I lost the zero before getting to the calculator
In todays great, flag-waving Brexit news
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/15/unilever-brexit-rotterdam-hq-london
Unilever denies their decision to ditch their UK HQ and move it all to Rotterdam had anything to do with Brexit. Hmmmm....
Well they would say that, wouldn't they? Because if they don't then the Daily Mail would have a patriotic hissy fit and its front page tomorrow would be calling for a boycott of Unilever products for them failing to believe in Empire 2.0. I expect this will be the start of the exodus of companies also saying it has nothing to do with Brexit, while sprinting towards the welcoming arms of the EU
But don't worry Dippy Dave has said he could 'live with' a shorter transition period. Like he had a ****ing choice?! This is how it works Dave.... they tell you how its going to be. You nod, then say you can 'live with' that.
" The Netherlands offers better protection against hostile corporate takeovers than the UK."
is another way of saying we need the protection of EU anti-trust laws and there is no guarantee that the UK will provide the same protection post Brexit.
i think even the Daily Mail smell a rat 🙂
is another way of saying we need the protection of EU anti-trust laws and there is no guarantee that the UK will provide the same protection post Brexit.
I would be unsurprised if many of those economically in favour of Brexit would oppose this status quo - it allows non-EU capital to flow through the City during aggressive takeovers and enriches them, normally at the cost of 'efficiencies' ie jobs and the migration of assets/control away from the UK. It's an interesting unintended consequence that this free-for-all has caused a major corporation to move its base. I'm sure others who are at risk of this kind of hostile takeover will be looking at this with interest.
Daniel Hannan is apparently advocating a EU deal on the Swiss model. Interesting.
So freedom of movement for people, roughly in the common market - good.
But no voting rights, payments (which could of course be higher than they were given we got a rebate) - probably not so good.
And no ECJ - which people will have mixed views on. Supranational courts can be quite useful when nations decide to do whatever they feel like - and they do.
Of course Daniel can be a bit of a pariah in Brexy circles due to his ability to think as well as support the ideology of Brexyism.
So freedom of movement for people
Is the Swiss model really FoM? I had to jump through hoops to work there for a few weeks and that was just an assigment with my normal job. I still needed a work permit and it was pretty restrictive.
Bottled it.... swivel eyes have Stockholm Syndrome i reckon.
The Swiss are a pita. Getting equipment in and out means customs clearance, declared values, all that, and punitive fines if you get it wrong. It's an expensive place to live and expensive to do business. The last time I was there ( a few months ago ) my hosts explained how the government tried to stimulate business but to not great effect, particularly in the tech sector.
Beautiful place, and if you're a native in work, or well off, undoubtedly fabulous.
A loooooonnnnng thread, but a good read from Steve Analyst (@EmperorsNewC) which gives lie to some of the bullshit spun out by some of the main Leave protagonists on an almost daily basis.
https://twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/974373411165270017?s=21
Daniel Hannan is apparently advocating a EU deal on the Swiss model. Interesting.
Switzerland is in the Schengen area.
So is he saying that leaving Brexit means removing any kind of passport controls from our borders?
Of course Daniel can be a bit of a pariah in Brexy circles due to his ability to think as well as support the ideology of Brexyism.
🙄
Seems the UK government is now not going to shaft its citizens living in the EU and vice versa, how very noble of them.
We'll be staying in, in all but name if not a complete reversal.
I suppose the question now is how far is this band wagon going to roll whilst the UK sheds influence, jobs and business to the mainland, before the whole sorry mess is laid to bed?
Of course one of the things the Brexies got right is that being in the SM / CU without being fully in the EU is a bad thing. All the rules with no voting rights.
So in solidarity with that point of view I suggest we remain in the EU and keep the voting rights.
I think that’s what IDS and the like meant.