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For the love of god tell me why the WTO is a good thing when it will put prices up in the shops and hard working brItish taxpayers out of jobs.
Don't ask questions or concern yourself with detail ... JUST BELIEVE!!!!
'Labour would be unable to nationalise the railways under new EU rules'
not true. but repeat it often enough i guess is the idea?
Guardian reports May as saying the govt is “looking closely at” the USA-Canada border as a model for the Irish problem.
Wonder how closely she’ll have to look before they see any problems…
Looks perfect. Can't see any CCTV cameras in that picture. Well, maybe one or two.
from the ft quoted in the grauniad
The US is offering Britain a worse “Open Skies” deal after Brexit than it had as an EU member, in a negotiating stance that would badly hit the transatlantic operating rights of British Airways and Virgin Atlantic.
British and American negotiators secretly met in January for the first formal talks on a new air services deal, aiming to fill the gap created when Britain falls out of the EU-US open skies treaty after Brexit, according to people familiar with talks.
The talks were cut short after US negotiators offered only a standard bilateral agreement. These typically require airlines to be majority owned and controlled by parties from their country of origin.
Such limits would be problematic for British carriers as they have large foreign shareholdings. Under existing arrangements, UK-based airlines are covered by the “Open Skies” treaty that requires them to be majority EU owned.
not true. but repeat it often enough i guess is the idea?
Indeed. And a Conservative government brought the England&Wales rail network back into public ownership… and had services in England run by a publicly owned body (before stupidly passing it back to the private sector to fail)… and we've always been subsidising rail… all while inside the EU. And it doesn't take more than a few moments to investigate if there's any state involvement in the railways by other EU states…
[i]kelvin wrote:[/i]
And it doesn’t take more than a few moments to investigate if there’s any state involvement in the railways by other EU states…
Not if your only source is Brexit Central
In a world with so much information and facts available it's actually quite hard or blinkered to miss everything that contradicts your position.
Depends. I don’t believe anything I read unless someone has taken the trouble to write it on the side of a bus. Anything worth writing has got to be worth writing on the side of a bus, right?
@aracer I read everything from thecanary via Huffington Post to Breitbart. Those two pieces from Brexit Central are spot on. So the onky source of remainer “trith” is what, The Guardian ? The paper that was given and declined to run fhe Oxfam abuse scandal ?
In relation To Corbyn’s / Labour’s new Brexit stance he took a pot shot at May today in Parliament for saying she would copy over the EU’s rules on state aid. As per the Brexit Central piece there is simply no way the EU will agree any trade deal or customs union without a counterparty agreeing to those. It was a key part of the Canada Deal that EU companies are able to bid for Canadian Government contracts.
I love the "can't nationalise" thing. I mean, the straight up fact is that Britain's railways are run by governments, just not us. The German government is Arriva's single shareholder. Abellio? That's the Dutch. C2C is owned by the Italian government. Kelois is the French. Everyone but us knows it's a good idea to have state owned railways- such a good idea that they bought 70% of ours.
But you don't even need to know that- you just need to remember that we've previously nationalised rail services. In fact the Tories did it.
In a world with so much information and facts available it’s actually quite hard or blinkered to miss everything that contradicts your position.
Says the man who has chosen to live in (and apply for permanent reisdence/citizenship ?) of a country with one of the most tightly controlled visa based immigration systems in the world. A country with a long track record of being far less liberal than most of Western Europe. Whoops.
Whoops
Look… a squirrel!
Jamba I posted link a couple of days ago debunking your garbage about not being allowed to nationalise stuff. I don't suppose you bothered to read it, because you never do.
there is simply no way the EU will agree any trade deal or customs union without a counterparty agreeing to those. It was a key part of the Canada Deal that EU companies are able to bid for Canadian Government contracts.
Yup… take back control by leaving EU… give that control, and more, away to the EU, USA etc as we try and get trade deals with them, from a position of weakness. So, our country trading on worse terms, with less say over our regulations, the tiny party at WTO and ISO, and all for what?
In a world with so much information and facts available it’s actually quite hard or blinkered to miss everything that contradicts your position.
true but first you feed THM and now he is[assumed] banned you engage with his attack poodle
If you choose to ignore the obvious noise an actual real debate can breakout, have you not realised they are both just here to spoil the thread as "lefties" spoiled it by bullying jamby with repeated demands for evidence and logical arguments.
he just have a bus and packet load of hope and hyperbole
Not just one squirrel there....
Private companies must be allowed to quote for any government contracts
EU rules on state aid have developed and tightened over time, what the Tories may or may not have done in the past is very old news.
Having state as existing shareholder very different than nationalising something
EU just rejected a French railway reorganisation saying it was state aid
If you can realistically nationalise things under EU rules why is Corbyn so upset by May’s announcement in her Mansion House speech and why has he been a lifelong Eurosceptic ?
Corbyn has zero chance of nationalising water, post and railways if we are in the EU or subject to state aid rules. Remember he and McDonnell don’t even want to pay current market value but some sort of historical privitisation cost.
You just explained how the constraints of future FTA will be greater than those imposed by EU membership. The fantasy politics of key UK players can't ignore the increased integration of global economies… isolation is stagnation.
Any sign of an answer to my WTO question?
No chance at all.
Private companies must be allowed to quote for any government contracts
Surely you could stipulate that all profits must be re-invested in the business instead of given to shareholders. You wouldn't get any private bidders - problem solved.
Anyway - if you can't renationalise things, how did we end up with Network Rail and government owned banks? I think the Network Rail model would work for other things, no? I think this is the kind of thing Labour is proposing.
The Tory party as a whole (If there is such a concept) is looking nervous, they (both camps of the party) are aware they are in real trouble and there is no obvious escape route (electorally or ecomomically)
For many in the Party this will be a defining moment as Brexit approaches - the question is how many of the Tory remainers will support Mrs May as she trundles over the cliff.
As Corbyn has split the Labour Party (but had some time to marshall it's resources) The Tory party will be split by the brinkmanship of bŕexit with no time to recover - as I pointed out this is the best that Mogg and the swivel eyed can hope for, however if you read around the edges and study the words (some said some not) its obvious how deep the fear is for the survival of theTory Party - Rees Mogg understands why people voted for brexit, he understands why that has not translated into an electoral mandate, he and the rest of the party know that it will take very little negative impact (post brexit) for them to not be electable for a long time- he also knows that a labour govt will and can throw borrowed money at post brexit land to keep the masses on side - until it really goes wrong of course.
There is a monumental failing in the tory Brexit proposition - it's all promises based on **** all
Then there is Labour who can make promises on tangible things- nationalisation, tuition fees etc.
It's a proper catch 22 for the right wing, to succeed you may have to fall on your sword.
Caveat emptor.....
how did we end up with Network Rail
Well, "very old news" is Jamba's rebuttal to that.
Those two pieces from Brexit Central are spot on.
No, they’re not. For all the reasons outlined above: they’re simply rose-tinted delusionism.
Private companies must must be allowed to quote for any government contracts
OK, let’s explore this furphy from a couple of angles:
1) Train franchise goes out to tender as usual, but no bids are received because within the terms are a need to, for example, freeze fares or some other commitment that would restrict profits. I guess it’s no trains or publicly owned trains now...
2) Does there even need to be a tender process? When was the last one for TfL?
Well, “very old news” is Jamba’s rebuttal to that.
But we were in the EU at the time no?
I thought so.
Didn't Northern Rock get 'nationalised'?
It certainly ended up in State ownership.
As did the bigger banks.
Can we except that both EU membership and any alternative trade deals, would place some limitations on the public/private interface, and move on? Of course increased public ownership of public services and infrastructure is possible as an EU member.
JC's already talked about a modern model of state ownership. So for example, the govt could buy out a company such as, I dunno, BT Openreach, just like any other company would. It could then buy shares and become the sole shareholder if it wanted.
If nothing else, I think this Daniel Hannan **** fantasy has aged well.
https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/
**** me. That is bat shit crazy. Sort of fan fiction porn.
Just read it WOW
I take it back Jamby, you are the rational wing of the fervent Brexit brigade 😉
1,118 pages of remoaners moaning, Jambalaya trolls them, they froth at the mouth even more and 10 more pages are born.
Bloody brilliant, good work Jamba!
Blimey. What a nutter. Never mind Jamby, he makes Mogg seem realistic
🦇💩🤪
mitsumonkey
Member1,118 pages of remoaners moaning, Jambalaya trolls them, they froth at the mouth even more and 10 more pages are born.
Bloody brilliant, good work Jamba!
Well, I think we're all glad you turned up to make such a valuable contribution
Subscriber
Private companies must be allowed to quote for any government contracts
How come it is fine for our most important services to be national (NHS, police, fire services, army) yet for other critical services like transport and power these must be driven for corporate profit?
in our brave new world will our borders be patrolled by the lowest bidder? I mean G4S would probably be a prime bidder and that does not fill me with hope...
One of the biggest issues is next April will be about 1-2 years too late to implement any changes or solutions for borders or businesses. Nothing in government moves quickly. If orders for equipment are not already in place it will not be here by the time "Brexit" hits...
now or you could be a cynic and say from TMs last speech that the transition was potentially perpetual and that the EU will have no finance gap as we are still prepared to pay our way for services even if we don't have any say in the rules we have to follow. Or that really will will just be in but without the benefits and now totally subservient in the name of freedom
in our brave new world will our borders be patrolled by the lowest bidder? I mean G4S would probably be a prime bidder and that does not fill me with hope…
On the plus side, it would probably guarantee freedom of movement
That prediction of post brexit Britain brought a tear to my patriotic British eye. I had to have a nice mug of tea out of my special Queen Mum mug to regain my composure. Seriously, it makes the painted bus look sober and reflective. Since Jamba reads so many sources, I wonder if he has a quote on it? Or is he too busy getting into Mikesmith/zokes about living in Oz...despite having declared on here that he is going to retire elsewhere?
Yeah and missed the fact I'm now living in Manchester....still when you find yourself on a pitch without a ball it seems the only choice is to play the man. In other news still no good news...
Tough break Mike, still; the only way is up, eh?
Theresa May’s chances of securing a deep free-trade deal with the EU were dealt a blow when Stefaan de Rynck, the main adviser to the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, stressed that the rules of the single market required far more than her chief proposal – a mutual recognition of standards.
May claimed in her speech last Friday that the UK could negotiate a future trade relationship based on mutual recognition of standards overseen by a third party court, made up of EU and UK nominees.
So thats her nonsense about a free trade deal blown out of the water. as was clearly obvious to anyone. 3rd party court obvious non starter.
And also Irish PM says mays technological border is also a non starter.
More chickens come home to roost. Another step closer to the cliff edge
Tough break Mike, still; the only way is up, eh?
Well all my own choices, yet another remain vote for when it's needed though the next vote will need a bit bit of paper to cover leave choices.
[i]jambalaya wrote:[/i]
@aracer I read everything from thecanary via Huffington Post to Breitbart.
In which case I challenge you to post something from thecanary or HP supporting your points. If the only place which backs you up is BC, that really ought to tell you something. Even Breitbart is likely to be less delusional than BC regarding Brexit. But then clearly when you read something in BC you get all excited because it appears to back up your views.
The genuine (and totally predictable) economic damage has already really started. And still the fudge and cloud-cuckoo-land cake-it-and-eat-it nonsense continues.
May seemingly has only one priority.... to stop the Tory party self-destructing.
And everything else is a mere afterthought.
People are going to look back on the ruins of this country's economy in years to come in total disbelief at the sheer incompetence of it. A government in total paralysis while trundling towards economic armageddon, and a completely useless opposition quite happy to let them get on with it.
and just in case UKIP or the Loony Right of the Tory party isn't racist enough for you
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43301773
<p class="story-body__introduction">The ousted former leader of the UK Independence Party, Henry Bolton, says he is setting up a new political party.</p>
Mr Bolton, who was voted out last month at a meeting of UKIP members, said his new party would "campaign unceasingly for our full independence from the EU".He said "there is an urgent need for a new way of doing politics that truly involves communities".
I just struggle with the 1 in the O of One not being quite centred. Did they create that logo in Excel?
Monsters.
Thats precisely what I thought Leku. I can't even look at it without twitching. It truly is a crime against typography. They should have just gone the whole hog and done it in Comic Sans. It would have been appropriate
I guess he will have got it done in time to get the tax deduction this year...
and the other one nation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Hanson%27s_One_Nation
I guess he will have got it done in time to get the tax deduction this year…
What tax deduction?
ah out of touch on UK tax rules... thought he could claim something out of it
Looks like nice Mr Farage has come out in support of Trumps tariff plan even though it'll help screw the UKs steel industry some more.
Nice to see who he really supports.
In case anyone missed this, who actually thinks a UK government can acutally deliver any form of controlled border that Brexit needs?
intersting article, neglects to point out the Maybot was Home Sec when the disastrous e-borders scheme was attempted, so presumably she kbows its an impossibility to get working for Brexit.
I reckon the govs solution will be to just let everyone be a 'trusted trader' & try & ignore the explosion in tax dodging & smuggling
It is amusing watching all these oldies shout about 'technological solutions' without a clue what it might entail!
I used to play Elite as a kid, so am wondering - what should I be ferrying from ROI and vice versa through the fantasy trust-based border to make the biggest profit post-Brexit? (Excluding narcotics, slaves and guns, Elite fans)
Water to London?
Might be a good source of straight bananas in the future and other EU delicacies.
So we will all be singing the star spangled banner soon. How does subservience to the US equate to TBC. Not only will we be a rule taker but we will be taking them somewhere the sun doesn't shine, hard, without the benefit of any lubricating agent.
To quote the man:
“Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off--then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can. This is my substitute for pistol and ball. With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.”
As I get seasick some **** brexiteer is going to get their *** hat knocked off shortly.
Interesting article by Nick Cohen in The Observer on Sunday (page 54). He offers a plausible explanation as to why the Tory right are apparently ignoring reality when it comes to Brexit.
why the Tory right are apparently ignoring reality when it comes to Brexit.
Because they are ****s?
Got a link or is it nsfw?
Maybe this one? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/06/britain-eu-motives-brexit
Its a simple lack of understanding and living in an echo chamber from many I think - plus those who want a deregulated economy
On the basis that article isn't by Nick Cohen, it is safe to assume it isn't.
@mike noted you are now in Manchester
@aracer the Labour party fought the 2017 GE on no freedom of movement, no single market and no customs union. I imagine some the left leaning / remain papers mentioned it. The first two they put in the manifesto the last one the shadow minister confirmed it in an interview.
Northern Rock was bust. It was taken over by the government to stop people losing their money, businesses their loans/overdrafts and staff being out of a job all pretty much overnight.
Interesting comment from Newsnight panel discussion (available on youtube) that now leaving the single market and customs union isn’t “hard brexit” for remainers. Shows they have come to terms with reality, now “hard brexit” means WTO.
WTO Brexit is the simplest and cleanest form, certainly needs time to prepare but we do 60% of our trade outside the EU (IMO real number is higher for RoW and lower for EU, Rotterdamn effect and trade diversion caused by EU protectionism = higher prices paid by uk consumers). As I posted before we have a £30 trade surplus in services with the EU and £60bn with the rest of the world.
Why do we need the WTO? If it puts up prices in UK shops why not just ignore it?
but we do 60% of our trade outside the EU
Surely that's under the terms of EU trade agreements, which we won't have post-Brexit...?
Haven't we just cancelled all our trade agreements?
@zippy standards, trade dispute resolution etc
@moly yes that does include trade with South Korea etc which is subject to EU negotiated agreements but those will be “photocopied”. Our largest trade counterpary is the US (ignoring EU as being one country). Interesting stat from Ozzy diplomat - we used to do 7% of their trade now its 2% as stuff was diverted to EU. Australia is looking forward to getting that trade back. As I said every new trade deal means less business for the EU in the future.
Yup.
Aviation knackered, raw materials import costs up, financial industry knackered.
No word on how our families living in on the continent will be affected.
I wonder how the knackered UK social care system and lack of affordable housing will cope with the redundancies and knock on health issues.
Don't get ill or lose your jobs peeps, it's all worth it for a different colour passport.
"Rotterdamn effect"
Are you still trotting out this tired old lie???
"ignoring EU as being one country"
How convenient....
To be fair jamby, El Presidente Trump has already offered us a crippling aviation deal.
A sign of things to come from our special relationship with the USA.
The vultures are circling over the carcass of the UK's exposed underbelly, make no mistake.
Jamb, why can we not sort out our own standards and disputes?We will be arranging our own trade deals,it’s not like we’ve never done it before. If we enter into a trade agreement with someone and they don’t like what we do surely they can just take their money elsewhere.
How dare a foreign organisation march into this country and tell me to put my prices up by 30%. We are showing the EU that we are prepared to sacrifice everything for freedom only to enslave ourselves to the despotic WTO.
"photocopied"
Which country has said that they won't be seeking additional concessions from us when we seek to replace trade deals? When will these new trade deals be ready? Do we leave the EU in a little over 12 months time?
WTO Brexit is the simplest and cleanest form, certainly needs time to prepare
How long will preparations take? Do we leave the EU in a little over 12 months time?
And it’s fairly apparent that along with the rest of Theresa’s pie-in-the-sky book of dreams, there’s not going to be a ‘transitional period’ either.
12 months to take off....
no single market and no customs union
When does the switch over from CHIEF to CDS complete to support trading with EU&EEA countries as an outside country? Do we leave the EU in a little over 12 months time?
Also David Davies today, I'm paraphrasing..
"There's about 11 big issues that we can't agree on, but I can't remember what any of them are"
We could literally replace our government with a cold, 2 day old lasegna and get more coherent ideas.
@moly yes that does include trade with South Korea etc which is subject to EU negotiated agreements but those will be “photocopied”
But the other country has to agree to that! We're weaker and smaller than the EU, and they know we need the trade deals asap, so they'll want to extract more concessions from us. They can simply shop elsewhere in the meantime.
Naive in the extreme to think that will all go swimmingly, IMO.
@aracer the Labour party fought the 2017 GE on no freedom of movement, no single market and no customs union. I imagine some the left leaning / remain papers mentioned it. The first two they put in the manifesto the last one the shadow minister confirmed it in an interview.
May has campaigned on the platform of a fairer and more united Britain, the presumed end goals of which she appears to be travelling further away from on a daily basis. I wouldn't put too much faith in any political commitment or manifesto promise from any party until it's actually in law.
Northern Rock was bust. It was taken over by the government to stop people losing their money, businesses their loans/overdrafts and staff being out of a job all pretty much overnight.
Free market: suck it up, sunshine. Either the government can re-nationalise industries or it can't. What it definitely should not be doing is corporatising the profits whilst nationalising the risks.
WTO Brexit is the simplest and cleanest form
Well, except for all the agreements and regulations that would need to be re-written and agreed, including air travel, standards, nuclear industry regulation, NI, etc. Really, WTO Brexit is about as messy a Brexit as it can be.
but we do 60% of our trade outside the EU
So we do 40% with the EU, just less than half. And you willingly wish to put that in jeopardy? Seems like one hell of a risk.
higher prices paid by uk consumers
Please explain how paying WTO tariffs on imports will reduce prices for British consumers. I'll wait.
@zippy standards, trade dispute resolution etc
But why do we need these aspects? Surely they're just anti-democratic supranational entities telling a sovereign nation what it can and can't do?