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TJ-
"Another pint on the speech. For the first time I have seen Corbyn actually seems to understand the various devolution issues and in a well crafted section makes the SNP into allies not enemies over this"
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Yup. And I think it's really this simple, previously he (reasonably enough) listened to the presumed experts in Scottish Labour, who were all simpletons. Now he's either getting better info from new people there, or he's just ignoring them
Its taken Corbyn long enough to come round
but labour once again taking the lead with Brexit (transition, citizens rights etc)
Cementing labours position as the party of business, http://www.cbi.org.uk/news/comprehensive-customs-union-with-the-eu-a-real-world-solution/
while the Tories try & herd unicorns....
to be fair on May shes tried similar promises, but has been undermined at all opportunities by the constant stream of cabinet & backbench Brexiteers sniping at her whenever she tries to put a position forward
It definitely sounds better than the Tories but, crucially, there’s still elements of cake about that the EU won’t accept.
The 2 main parties are asking for & offering things which they simply cannot promise or seem remotely able to deliver!
A total cluster-F!
20 months of Tory infighting over Brexit has simply presented Corbyn with an open goal with a semi-repspectable sounding policy, that his own party wont shred to pieces as part of their own personal ego wars to secure the PMship in the near future.
Where's our resident sanctimonious blowhard?
Its a resaonable starting point for negotiation thos. clear in what he wants. No huge barriers to most of it. respectes the GFA most crucially which nothing from the tories does.
May has agreed no divergence for NI and no border in the irish sea but no CU for the UK - that is simple nonsense and cannot work
What Corbyn is asking for is somewhere around the Norway/ Switzerland option
Isn't this also awful?
We can't negotiate our own deals, and we have little or no say in what the EU decide to do.
Either we leave properly and at least get the benefits (such as they are) or we admit it was all just stupid and give up and stay in.
No one likes admitting being stupid......
What corbyn wants is still a stupid and impossible helping of cake, but it's a differently stupid and impossible helping of cake from the tories and perhaps more importantly it can be seen as one step closer to calling the whole thing off.
Where’s our resident sanctimonious blowhard?
Missing believed banned
Jeremy Corbyn COMEDY GOLD 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
“Supporting new cake” - PMSL you could not make this up
https://order-order.com/2018/02/26/corbyn-join-us-supporting-option-new-cake
In othet news OBR revises economy up again - get in 🙂 🙂 🙂
Isn’t this also awful?
We can’t negotiate our own deals, and we have little or no say in what the EU decide to do.
Either we leave properly and at least get the benefits (such as they are) or we admit it was all just stupid and give up and stay in.
Paving the way to stay in or rejoin after a 2 year transition.
Jeremy Corbyn COMEDY GOLD
Nice little bit of irony to brighten up an otherwise dreary Monday. Thanks jamba.
Oh and is Guido Fawkes now just a less funny right wing version of the Mash?
In othet news OBR revises economy up again
#fakenews
I thought growth was revised down, http://www.cityam.com/281076/uk-economic-growth-revised-down-end-2017
wasnt it was the OBRs prediction revised up?
& we all know what brexiters dont believe in forecasting 😉
watching the tories sink themselves as the party of business to chase the dying demographic of little englanders is amusing, more so now that the opposition are actually looking out for the country's interests re Brexshit
“Supporting new cake” – PMSL you could not make this up
To be honest I'm getting used to the right making things up, appears to be the only way they will make their case.
I wouldn't laugh too hard - over on pistonheads some of them are turning their compasses around now. Lots of the UK may follow.
Not that it's my benchmark but did you see the bit where the CBI endorsed this move?
Hooray, we’ll finally be rid of these sort of shennanigans
https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/968082475137359874
Oh and is Guido Fawkes now just a less funny right wing version of the Mash?
Less funny and design looks a bit Ling.
ninfan getting a bit desperate there?!?
he was qualified to be deputy secretary-general, then got promoted to secretary general
sounds like pretty standard career progression to me!
still at least free of the shackles of the EU we'd escape such controversial; appomitments
<div class="bbp-reply-author">ninfan
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Hooray, we’ll finally be rid of these sort of shennanigans
Because at no point has any British government appointed people with no qualifications or experience to undemocratic positions
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In othet news OBR revises economy up again – get in
Where ?
I'm cherry picking but: " The persistence of weak productivity growth does not bode well for the UK’s growth potential in the years ahead."
The only good news is we've saved a few quid on coppers.
he was qualified to be deputy secretary-general, then got promoted to Secretary General, sounds like pretty standard career progression to me!
Wait till you see the relocation package he got between posts...
Guys - the tone of this debate has been good the last couple of days. I welcome Jamba and ninfan back to make the case for the other side. can we please keep it respectful and debate the issues?
I think mrlebowski just about has it right. It's all about political manoeuvring by Corbyn, for his ultimate goal of getting a socialist Labour government. The customs union serves him well in two ways, it appeases the right wingers in his party and more importantly drives a wedge between Labour and the Tories, therefore more chance of a major parliamentary defeat and ultimately a general election.
I'm not sure how his former backbench rebel colleagues on the left of the party will see it, more than likely as a betrayal. Fortunately for him they pose less of a problem than the backbench rabble rousers in the Tory party. It's obvious he's tried to appease them too, mentioning the 'opt outs' on posted workers directive and public service competition directives. This has received mixed reactions, John Mann for example is happy with the position whilst Frank Field isn't. I can't see the EU or ECJ accepting any exemptions that impinge on any of the four freedoms.
NInfan has no position except to troll, increasingly poorly and irrationally these days, and anyone who defends this needs to have a long hard look at themselves - i bet he voted remain - not that I would believe any answer he gave to anything.
I think mrlebowski just about has it right. It’s all about political manoeuvring by Corbyn, for his ultimate goal of getting a socialist Labour government.
I find this very strange its like criticising a striker for scoring a tap in. He is a politician its hardly news they do things for political reasons.
I can’t see the EU or ECJ accepting any exemptions that impinge on any of the four freedoms.
Me neither but i think its a far more realistic starting position
Having at first pretty much dismissed Corbyn's speech… …and I still think it's muddled… …and very hard to get agreement with rEU… but… I think he's made a few good moves…
1) He is proposing pretty much what Mefty and myself almost agreed was a good compromise… a customs union/agreement with the EU for manufactured goods… leaving us to persue our own course (god help us) for food, fish and services.
2) Proposed that we keep collaborating in bodies such as Euratom, Eurasmus, and food standards and chemicals agencies.
But, his attempt to claim some kind of Brexit dividend to spend on public services either points to his lack of economic understanding, or groups him in with the other disegenuous Brexit cheerleaders.
whattiler, four freedoms don't have anything to do with the customs union. There also seems little chance of the EU accepting any of his demands for a say over the rules of the CU. It's just a different type of cakeism.
[i]oldnpastit wrote:[/i]
What Corbyn is asking for is somewhere around the Norway/ Switzerland option
Isn’t this also awful?
It's a lot less awful than any of the alternatives which "honour the result of the referendum". It wouldn't actually be terribly painful overall - probably worse than our current position, but a lot of things would stay the same. The obvious advantage being that Farage is still out of a job.
the captain, I was referring to his exemptions on posted workers and public services competition directives, these have plenty to do with the four freedoms. His demands for a say over the CU are just a political tool, his demands for these exemptions are ideological, but both as you say different types of cakeism. I think he knows this but his main objective is not to get the EU to accept them it's to get in to No 10. FWIW I can't fault him on that, if it gets rid of the Tories and we have a socialist Labour party in government. Something we've not seen since I've lived in this country.
[i]Junkyard wrote:[/i]
I find this very strange its like criticising a striker for scoring a tap in. He is a politician its hardly news they do things for political reasons.
Thank goodness he's finally worked out how to score an open goal.
[i]kelvin wrote:[/i]
But, his attempt to claim some kind of Brexit dividend to spend on public services either points to his lack of economic understanding, or groups him in with the other disegenuous Brexit cheerleaders.
Maybe he appreciates there's no advantage here to pointing out the other side are lying (remember how well that did when it was tried before?) and you're better off just joining them in the lie.
The devolved parliament are ratcheting up the pressure as well. May has conceded that they devolved parliaments need to pass a LCM. There is a huge power grab being attempted by westminster. Latest proposals to reduce / eliminate this position have been completely rebuffed as the Tories want to hold a veto power - having conceded all repatriated powers over devolved matter must go to the devolved parliaments. Needless to say the tories have been sent home to think again.
Its a rather interesting sideshow but could derail the whole thing.
It will certainly make the next couple of weeks interesting. There will definitely be some panic at Tory hq and maybe astonishment that it's possible to come up with a plan.
I fully expect we are heading back to the commie terrorism attack lines very shortly rather than a policy retort. does may have any cash to bung the CBI for support?
#magicmoneytree for emergency use only
Corbyn gives his most important speech for ages and what does the BBC do in the very next radio news report?
Play highlights of the speech? Nope
Get some impressions from the Government on what this means to them? Nope
NO!! They dig out BLOODY Farage from somewhere again to moan about how this will lead to a betrayal of the majority of voted out... You couldn't make it up. If I was a cynical man I would say the Beeb and Farage are in cahoots on Brexit.
Cherry picking access isn't an option, Kelvin, as it's already been ruled out by EU leaders. The financial services sector has been specifically cited as a not possible by Macron.
"Le plein accès des services financiers au marché unique "n'est pas réalisable", insiste toutefois le président français, "Il ne devrait pas être possible de choisir ce qu'on veut dans le marché unique car cela signifie le démantèlement du marché unique"."
All or nothing so nothing.
yes the excuse used to be the following UKIP had I wonder what they say now
Ed, I suggest leaving services out of a deal, you say financial services can't be included. Hmm…
There seems to be somebody missing from this thread for a few days....
Hmm what? You didn't mention financial services, I did. No need to be a THM about it.
The devil is in the detail, a customs union on manufatured goods implies so much more including a host of services.
Which intelectual property rules do you use?
Which standards do you comply with?
What sort of quality system do you apply?
Who ultimately has the final say in th ecase of litigation?
EU ones obviously, ECJ included. And British ones too post Brexit if the dream of unfettered manufacturing is to be realised. Two sets of standards normes and procedures, shoddy ones for the Uk and proper ones for anything going to Europe. Britain doesn't make cheap consumer tat that just needs an EU sticker, it produces bits integrated into EU qulatity procedure based manufacturing for people like Airbus.
It's one thing being in a customs union but another thing making it work if you've ditched compliance for the service sector which is now outside the union.
No cherry picking means no cherry picking just as Brexit menas Brexit, so Britian is going to be competing with Algeria and Moroco rather than its EU partners unless it accepts a level of integration comparable to Switzerland which I would reminfd you all is in Shengen, already a step better than the UK is now on freedom of movement.
At least, however unworkable, someone has come up with a plan that can at least be seen as a starting point for negotiations.
What was it the leavers shrieked after the referendum to the remainers: “stop moaning and make it work!” (Completely failing to realise that usually in adult life, if you make a mess, you get to clear it up)
Well here we are, someone who were he not Labour leader would definitely have voted leave has come up with a plan that at least isn’t completely batshit crazy. Most of his party of remainers seem happy with it. When are the actual leavers going to present something that’s might be the basis for a workable solution?
Second Referendum (we have done this at length already)
On final deal. Notwithstanding the fact that voting down a negotaited deal gives WTO, even if there was a “stay in the eu” outcome this would simply ensure the eu offered only a ridiculously punative “deal” to ensure we stayed in
Muligan / do over. The outcome was clear - Leave. Both sides in campaign made it crystal clear we would leave the single market and customs union. No justification for asking same question twice. Had SNP won 50.1 to 49.9 there would have been no second IndyRef “just to make sure”
@binners the UK media is heavily Remain especially tv, you can’t hang onto that crutch. Remain lost as they ran a terrible campaign, not entirely their fault as the pro arguments are so weak and virtually no one is a real fan of the EU as we saw.
A quick note on trade. We have a close to £90bn annual trade deficit with the EU in goods (£30bn in cars alone), all stuff with varying degrees of tariffs. Without a trade deal the EU will be screwed as this is all stuff we can buy from elsewhere and at a significant price advantage either via new trade deals or unilateral lowering of tariffs especially items which the EU applies protectionist tariffs too (like clothes and footwear). Our exports to EU have fallen significantly already over past 10 years, new growth markets lie elsewhere. Secondly we hear much about services but whilst we have a £30bn surplus with the EU we have a £60bn surplus with the rest of the world - we have a huge trade in services without the “EU deal”. If EU tries to block financial services (it can’t block the 70% of our service trade which is non-financial) then the big winner will be New York which in the EU’s eyes is an even greater Satan.
A quick note on trade
That was not quick and just another long winded re hashing of they need us more than we need them. Its just not true
we are still 4 % of their trade and they at least 40% of ours. It is not hard to work out who gets most harmed in this scenario.
Fingers in the ears brexit.
Still waiting for that list of successful countries on wto deals...
Jamba - the UK media is overwhelmingly tipped towards leave. Print media is 80% leave and the TV takes its " impartiality from a midpoint of that. Hence all the airtime Farage gets. Far more than he should do for the amount of support his party has.
Scottish leader deabte in ther GE UKIP got a place with less than 2% of the vote and only one MEP and NO other representation, Greens did not with over 10% of the vote, 6 msps and countless councillors
UKIP / leave get a huge bonus from far too much publicity and no hard questioing of their nonsense
The comparison with the Scotish referendum is interesting, I read something about the Scotoish referendum and was surprised that the voting age was 16. So in 2014 the voting age was 16, when it was known that the very youngest voters were in favour remaining in the UK. In 2016 the voting age for the EU referendum was 18 when the very youngest voters were in favour of remaining in Europe. Whether enough would have registered to tip the balance we'll never know.
edit:
Without a trade deal the EU will be screwed as this is all stuff we can buy from elsewhere
You're gonna ditch the Porche for a Tesla - good man !
Financial services in Euros will not go to new york. It has been made abundantly clear that that type of trade must be under EU jurisdiction.
Edukator manufacturers all over the world deal with multiple standards, domestic vs various export markets. There aren’t worldwide standards on most things, look at cars and electrical goods. Even in financial services where in theory there are global standards there are big differences in regional and national (even inside EU) implementation. Business just deals with it.
when it was known that the very youngest voters were in favour remaining in the UK.
got a source for that ? My understanding was it was the other way - younger in favour of independence.
I don't think it clear cut tho and the SNP. Greens adn Lib dems have all had policy on reducing the voting age to 16 for a while so a principled stand
another difference was in scotland they allowed EU residents in Scotland to vote but no ex pats. that certainly tipped the vote away from independence but again was the right and fair thing to do.
Yep they adhere to the most common standard. Still no clues on the countries doing well on wto?
Any countries trying to get out of trading blocs with the exception of blow hard trump who has not managed to leave his.
Edukator general view was that 16-18yo Scots voted to split from UK hence SNP setting the age to 16
There will be an opportunity to vote on the EU at every futurevgeneral election as any party can stand on a manifesto to hold a new “lets re-join” Referendum or indeed just join (our 1975 Referendum was held after we had joined the EEC). My own view is that all the major parties will move on and future elections will be about new trade relationships globally and the EU will be very much yesterdays news.
And business deals with being in countries that aren't part of the national system is doing stuff in house. A large part of UK exports are supplying parts and sub-units becuase it's as easy for a German company to buy from a UK supplier as German supplier. Add a barrier and it's as easy to work with Moroco so why not deal with Moroco which isn't easy but ultimately a lot cheap than the UK:
A long post I wrote a few days ago but didn’t upload when back online - the Economic modelling critique is well worth reading if people want some meat / detail
Some favourite stats from recent past
400,000 French living and working in London, 20,000 Brits in Paris. Yes its a lovely city but not a place to try and work and earn a living Mr Macron ...
For every 1 person the UK requests arrested under the European Arrest Warrant, the UK receives 8 requests from the EU. So on a pro-rata basis that’s three times more than would be expected. To paraphrase The Donald “Europe are not sending us their best people are they?”
New group of academics (inc Cambridge Uni business school) and business people has been formed to counterbalance anti-Brexit bias in academia.
https://briefingsforbrexit.com
Read a fascinating analysis they produced this week of various claims and reports by economists including the infamous Treasury model from last week. 58 pages and quite “techy” but well worth a read imho. Many other good pieces on the site already and more arriving.
No real evidence the EU was instrumental in UK growth since we joined. Advent of WTO much more significant and we’d probably have seen much same growth had we not joined the EEC.
Treasury model (Sadiq Kahn’s even worse) very biased anti-Brexit in its assumptions and with glaring omissions (eg not factoring in boost to manufacturing due to fall in sterling), not modelling any unilateral changes in WTO tariffs (highly likely policy), highly constrained immigration in Leave scenario when govt has made it clear we will have a controlled visa based system. Notwithstanding this the differences in outcome are very small and highly speculative given the long period of analysis (guesstimation !). It’s also worth noting that on a GDP/head basis the projections are quite similar for remain/leave - remain gives higher GDP but with much higher population. Also points out that UK (and Malta) are the only EU countries to export more outside the block than internally. The UK is a global player and needs trade arrangements to suit. EU doesn’t suit.
Interesting piece from them on Irish border, makes same points as have I, tech solutions very possible and workable and used elsewhere in world and real “game” here is EU via their lackey Ireland trying to tie the UK into a customs union in order to restrict our ability to sign global free trade deals .. remember every new deal we sign will mean less business for the EU - cutting tariffs on food, clothing, footwear and of course cars. EU advisor confirmed electronic solutions would work for Irish border and in fact offer a competitive advantage should UK roll them out more widely.
Jamba - the SNP. Greens and lib dems have all had lowering voting age to 16 in their manifestos for years. Principled stand not opportunism. Same as allowing eu citizens in Scotland to vote which almost certainly was the margin of defeat. However the right thing to do so a principled stand. They do not have the power to do so for elections
something a tory would not recognise if it bit him
If the EU referendum had been as principled and allowd EU citizens in the UK to vote it would have been remain that won
Well if a technology based solution is possible to NI why has no one come out with a proposal? the answer is of course one isn't possible.
So no countries on wto doing well, nobody leaving trade blocs?
There is one way in which a referendum could be held that would respect democracy. Blair’s presumption is that a second vote would offer the choice between the deal on the table and remaining in the EU. He is nearly right. Instead, any second referendum could offer only the choice between the deal on the table, and leaving with no deal. The decision on Brexit has already been taken. Choosing between leaving with or without a deal is the only way that another referendum could be held in a way that respects democracy. That is an abstract way of saying: this is the only future referendum that could respect the people in Bedford who voted Leave.
Tom Simpson is Associate Professor of Philosophy and Public Policy at the Blavatnik School of Government, University of Oxford,
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-ethics-of-a-second-brexit-referendum-equality-trust-honesty/
That report is utter nonsense
It claims there is a policed border for people smuggling - there is not as there is a common travel area. Utter nonsense adn no details of how a technology based solution would work. It compares it to the US canada border which is a full hard border with customs controls
Business just deals with it
ye they go on all the time about how much they enjoy red tape and the benefits of this to trade. No one is saying they wont cope they are saying they will be hampered which is self evidently and undeniably true.
For every 1 person the UK requests arrested under the European Arrest Warrant, the UK receives 8 requests from the EU
source please.
So on a pro-rata basis that’s three times more than would be expected.
Not enough information to see if this is true so soure and figures please
To paraphrase The Donald “Europe are not sending us their best people are they?”
Nothing would make me want to paraphrase that bigot or what he represents. Is it shithole countries you want us to trade with ?
Tom Simpson is Associate Professor of Philosophy and Public Policy at the Blavatnik School of Government, University of Oxford,
Hang on who? Is that one on ebay.?
And
So no countries on wto doing well, nobody leaving trade blocs?
Jamba - there’s some intelligent people write nonsense.
The decision on Brexit has already been taken.
This highlights someone with an agenda - ie take anything they say with a huge pinch of salt - because if it were true then the 2016 referendum itself would be anti-democratic, wouldn’t it?
And arguably it was. And arguably not.
However as someone (Davis?) once said, if a country can’t change its mind it ceases to be democratic.
Jamba, your quote is nonsense dressed in fine words.
In other news has anyone seen the Ancestry advert taking the piss out of Brexit?
when even the ad boys think it’s a joke...
Edukator general view was that 16-18yo Scots voted to split from UK hence SNP setting the age to 16
You're quite right, Jamba, I managed to type the exact opposite of what I'd read. Sorry. Which also implied the opposite of what I'd intended in terms of the voting age not being lowered for the EU referendum. sleep needed.
As for Gudgin, he's very good at being critical with hindsight but no so good with his crystal ball. He has to convince 27 states a virtual border is doable and acceptable, including the republic of Ireland. Even if it's doable I can't see Dublin accepting.
Tom Simpson is Associate Professor of Philosophy and Public Policy
Think thats an appeal to authority there.
Looking at a few of his arguments
"The votes cast in 2016 said that the possible trade-off between wealth and sovereignty was worth it"
No they didnt.
Then we have "The deeper objection to re-running the referendum is not just the obvious incompatibility of doing so with democracy."
Note how he just declares victory. Having one vote and its game over is indicative of an electoral dictatorship not a sign of democracy.
"If Brexit does not happen, something more profound will have happened than half of the voting population’s political preferences having been frustrated"
There is a rather obvious flaw here. It shows a lack of faith in his sides ability to keep the lies going.
"by their actions Britain’s elite would have expressed contempt for the British people."
On the plus side it will be Britain's elite. Most of the elite Brexiteers do their best to avoid actually being in Britain.
I really hope his normal work is better than this shite and its just the fact he is a Brexit loon that is making his arguments so piss poor.
Speaking of the democracy thing. Good to see the hard right are apparently seeking legal advice on if Corbyn wins the vote. Parliamentary democracy only goes so far for the hard right elites.
I look forward to all the defenders of democracy attacking them. I suspect though they will vanish.
Remember why it is essential that Leavers do everything they can to keep the sensible option off the table, by painting it as being undemocratic… it is because they know the sensible option is more popular than any single alternative they can propose and achieve… they want you to think that picking between the unpopular alternatives is all we have left.
I include both Jamba and Corbyn in that camp… they both want very different incompatible alternatives to the sensible option… and both know that people will only support their option if it is weighed up against the other… rather than if weighed up against remaining a member of the EU.
He has to convince 27 states a virtual border is doable and acceptable, including the republic of Ireland. Even if it’s doable I can’t see Dublin accepting.
Closer to home than this, I thought one of the arguments for Brexit was stronger control of our borders. Now what's the point of doing that in Dover and the main airports if anyone who the EU has let in can just waltz into the UK via Dublin then across a soft border between the UK and Ireland?
Careful what you wish for… the obvious answer is ID cards and constant checking of your "papers" to show that you are allowed to be here. Oh, what a pretty future we have to look forward to… I dread to think what the "hi tech" version of this might look like.
I dread to think what the “hi tech” version of this might look like
Decent 4g?
say NO to jamba
'What Corbyn is asking for is somewhere around the Norway/ Switzerland option'
Anyone who suggests this has clearly never tried to import or export anything from or to these countries.
This forum doesn't work very well still on android/chrome 🤔
The decision on Brexit has already been taken. Choosing between leaving with or without a deal is the only way that another referendum could be held in a way that respects democracy. That is an abstract way of saying: this is the only future referendum that could respect the people in Bedford who voted Leave.
Tom Simpson doesn't half talk a load of cobblers for an Oxford professor. On the basis of that argument we can't hold any more general elections in a way which respects democracy. That is an abstract way of saying that no future general election could respect the people in Bedford who voted Tory last time*
*sorry I CBA checking who the people of Bedford voted for in the GE - I'm just making the wild assumption they're Tories if he's citing them as his bastion of Leave.
labour win 700 majority [ not that it alters the good point you made]
In any democracy the people can change their minds or its not democracy. This is not a hard point to grasp.
[i]Junkyard wrote:[/i]
labour win 700 majority
Whoah, hold your horses - are you not respecting the choice of the people of Bedford who voted Tory in 2015?
If I was a cynical man I would say the Beeb and Farage are in cahoots on Brexit.
Not much cynicism needed - R4 Today has become Farage's own talk show.
Just for ninfan
Turns out that our corrupt government do Indeed flout the rules when appointing their mates
Careful what you wish for… the obvious answer is ID cards and constant checking of your “papers” to show that you are allowed to be here. Oh, what a pretty future we have to look forward to… I dread to think what the “hi tech” version of this might look like
Dear god, you don't believe that drivel do you? ID cards do not equal 1984, why would 'constant checking' follow them if they were adopted? FFS they can't even afford to keep bobbies on the beat let alone add 'constant checking' to some agency's remit.
Ironically last time David Davis quit government it was over ID cards, the kind of big brother approach he's all for if its EU citizens or at the NI border.
But Brexit & hypocrisy are not uncommon bedfellows
An open border, but with reduced rights to work and settle for those free to cross that border, suggests more internal checks, for which documentation will be required. Not exactly a scare story Mr @FuzzyWuzzy. But I admit "constant checking" was hyperbole.
Like the quick check most employers should be doing at the start of a contract? It's not an arduous requirement is it?
If we get ID cards we could use them as legitimate ID on flights inside Europe instead of those awkwardly sized passports we are stuck with....oh...wait....
Best description of brexit yet on Today this morning - giving up a three course meal now on the promise of a packet of crisps in the future.