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zokes
Just imagine if remain had won by less than 2% but suddenly that was seen as full endorsement of Schengen, the Euro, and a fully federalised Europe. I’m sure the leavers would have been just fine with that, coz “democracy”
Most remainers wouldn't have been fine with that I think! But yes, it makes the point nicely.
“Most remainers wouldn’t have been fine with that I think! But yes, it makes the point nicely.”
Actually, when you put it like that it probably makes the point even better: apart from our resident cabal here, most leavers aren’t exactly chuffed with the hard Brexit idea.
'discussions about what leaving the EU consists of and the advantages or disadvantages of the various post Brexit trading and social agreements have been utterly ignored and lost in the noise'
well it's a good thing that when asked, you set out your position so succinctly.
Mental Capacity Act 2005
Five Statutory Principles
The Act is underpinned by five principles, which are contained within the act and explained in the Mental Capacity Act code of practice:
a presumption of capacity - every adult has the right to make his or her own decisions and must be assumed to have capacity to do so unless it is proved otherwise
the right for individuals to be supported to make their own decisions - people must be given all appropriate help before anyone concludes that they cannot make their own decisions
that individuals must retain the right to make what might be seen as eccentric or unwise decisions
best interests - anything done for or on behalf of people without capacity must be in their best interests
least restrictive intervention - anything done for or on behalf of people without capacity should be an option that is less restrictive of their basic - as long as it is still in their best interests.
good analysis of Johnsons speech and whether its the first glimmer of a confirmed policy from the government or just part of the eternal Tory power struggle over Europe & Brexit
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/boris-johnson-one-brexit-speech-down-five-go
Heres my analysis of the Johnson speech:
Lying self-absorbed shyster makes the latest in his endless tedious leadership bids by spouting a load of vague meaningless drivel designed to appeal exclusively to the swivel-eyed old loons who constitute the Tory party membership, and will thus be electing the next leader
Has he sorted out the Irish border?
@mikesmith taking his condesemding nonsesne to new deprhs. Thr man who hasn’t the good grace to thank someone for a charitable donation. How is Tasmania for you today ? Still enjoying the benefits of a highly regulated and controlled immigration system
Oustanding speech from our next Prime Minister
You could almost say hes played a blinder! 😉
Yeah the rest of us, who arent so easily led, just see a guy whos lied lots before, trying to bullshit us again
amazingly some people still buy into it!
also contradicts Mays Lancaster House speech, so which is it to be?
once again the internat divisions within the Tory party only make things less clear, hence the negative reaction from both business & the trade unions to Borris' speech -I suppose in that way Borris has managed to unite differing groups!
How is Tasmania for you today ? Still enjoying the benefits of a highly regulated and controlled immigration system
No idea, sat in Manchester.
The benefits of a highly regulated immigration system relies on huge numbers of free to get, minuscule checked working holiday visas. It also leaves a number industries understaffed as they don't make it onto a list or staff have to leave because overall the job market may have changed but doesn't cope with regional fluctuations. As for condescending which bit are you on about? Was it asking for your homework? All I was asking for was a list of countries operating on WTO only - like you want the UK to do, it's a really short list shouldn't take long.
I think the basic problem is too many people believed Theresa when she said “We’re all Brexies now”.
Turns out about 55% of UK adults aren’t - and rising.
I remember suggesting a few hundred pages ago that by the time we left just about the only people in favour of Brexit would be the EU. Looking like we’re still on for that.
Turns out about 55% of UK adults aren’t – and rising.
source for that statistic ?
hes talking about this
Still enjoying the benefits of a highly regulated and controlled immigration system
What are those then?
hes talking about this
ah, a BMG opinion poll. Perfect
You may be interested to note that BMG’s final poll before the EU referendum in 2016 gave remain a seven point lead.
oops
They also ask people how they voted in the referendum. So useful to give an indication of how opinions are changing. These polls suggest that Leave voters still think we should Leave. So no real movement there. Of course, those Leavers haven't been asked to get behind a single Leave plan yet… 'till they do they can keep backing the thing they think/hope is intended…
Oustanding speech from our next Prime Minister
anyone else says this and we would all cry troll
Anyway look like he is plan to reach out to brexies has worked with those who supported him and the leave campaign. In terms of national unity he has a blair like ability to harm any cause he supports and the same level of hubris to be unaware of this.
Of course Jamba is trolling, but that’s a gentle and amusing troll.
We know he’s trolling, he knows he’s trolling and he knows we know he’s trolling.
I don’t agree with Jamba’s statement for an instant, but it was funny.
It’s really as much of a troll of some on the more rabid Brextremists on here as anything.
PS - now’s a great time to say it wasn’t trolling, you really meant it Jamba. Comedy timing and all. 🤗😎😜
Lying self-absorbed shyster makes the latest in his endless tedious leadership bids by spouting a load of vague meaningless drivel designed to appeal exclusively to the swivel-eyed old loons who constitute the Tory party membership, and will thus be electing the next leader
Yes, but he is also trying to appeal to the remainers, who he knows he needs if he is to be PM, by appearing "softer" than the JRM bandwagon.
That speech also indicated the fear the brexiters have over how their delusion is being picked apart by the sensible among us. As I have said before, Brexit is being picked apart piece by piece.
Oustanding speech from our next Prime Minister
He really knows his onions...No Carrots! Organic Carrots!
Of course Jamba was Trolling
he knows perfectly well that JRM is the next PM
he knows perfectly well that JRM is the next PM
Ooh a papist pm. That will go down well.
Nice try ninfan. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but you lack Jamba’s style.
Put simply, too crude, no subtlety.
And ZippyK - stop it. Leave that sort of thing to the bigots.
still no answers on Northern ireland ?
BoJo’s speech seems to have fallen a little flat.
Ninfan might be right. 😆
did he really mentions carrots ?
Yeah it was in the Q&A at the end Johnson was asked the unsurpring question about whether he had any clarity on the gov's actual brexshit position & he pretended he'd missheard clarity as the word 🥕,
Was weird even by Johnson standards, but I suppose playing the fool is his default position when asked for some substance to back up his bullshitting.
the DUP have once again told May to **** off . That should make Brexit negociations on NI a bit more complicated .
Never pay it all up front when you have to hire loyalty
Jambas - have you read Ruth Lea in the FT today?
bravo to Pro-Eu FT for publishing her views. The intolerant ^ should take note.
ninfan
Member
Of course Jamba was Trollinghe knows perfectly well that JRM is the next PM
Any good Conservative would concede that by a thumping Brexit-eclipsing majority, ‘none of the above’ is their next leader. This is a consistent result in conservative Home and bmg polls since the summer. Latest one being Johnson on 13% and R-M on 7%. No one at all on 51%. Kind of puts the ‘anyone but Corbyn’ movement at the last leadership bout into perspective.
The intolerant ^ should take note.
Did he shoot and miss again?
I think THM that “scrap any labour laws business doesn’t like” type Brexit is going to divide Brexy opinion quite nicely.
Other than that it was a bit frothy and didn’t seem particularly well thought out. It’s not my field so perhaps Ms Lea is brilliant but on the basis of that article you’d be hard pressed to see it.
More of the same deregulate and trade with people a very long way away but meet each and every one of their particular sets of their regulations because you have to if you’re not the one with the whip hand. Boris could have written it.
Is she meant to be any good? Serious question. I mean she’s FRSA similar to my father (FBA & FRSE*) and they don’t give that away lightly - but my father ain’t the man he was sadly and maybe Ruth ain’t so good these days either.
It does at least reflect her long held position reasonably well.
Let me know if you feel I’m being unfair.
*get it right Iain
IGM you are free to take your own views on what she says - I read it differently - and on her if you like. Her record and background speaks for itself.
I was more interested in the fact that the FT, to its credit, was happy to publish her opinions despite them being against those of the paper. Debate is important.
I noted the context and contrast with STW in passing but was equally amused that Ms Lea was herself a victim of LW intolerance in her past. It is alleged that she lost a job because of it.
Some cannot handle debate, preferring abuse and bullying instead.
Some cannot handle debate
Pot...
preferring abuse and bullying instead
...meet kettle.
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You really are a work of art, hurty
Yes - As I recall, it was alledged, though never proven, that the Blair Brown government (well known for its hard left policies) forced her out of the IoD. Apart from the fact it remains rumour not fact, the most interesting thing about that is that New Labour has that kind of influence with the IoD. But if Corbyn is being listened to by business groups then perhaps it’s true.
Like you say her record and background are notable possibly exceptional, (actually I think I also noted that), I’m just looking at the article itself and wondering whether she is past the height of her powers or it was just a bad day when she wrote it. Or perhaps as happens occasionally in the press, it got edited.
If you want papers putting views forward counter to their own positions, the Independent has been doing it to some minor extent throughout the Brexit debacle, but the Guardian has been really quite good on this point. Less so the Telegraph, Mail and Express (though the Mail May have changed - I’ve pretty much given up on it).
though the Mail May have changed – I’ve pretty much given up on it
Is its Sunday cousin still at odds with the main (and I use the term loosely) publication?
We shall have to disagree on both the Indy and the guardian, especially the latter
i have no strong views on her. I used to find her interesting in the 90s and early 00s but she has been largely off my radar for a while
but I am prepared to read what she and others like Roger Bootle write. I may disagree with their ultimate conclusions but they are not fools nor do they resort to extreme exaggeration or outright lies that many of those who cannot accept that democracy does not always deliver the results “they want” resort to.
I read many things THM (I actually particularly enjoy the Express), I disagree or dismiss many of them (Express gets an honourable mention again here). I seem to remember you wondering why an engineer was reading Bloomberg - answer, because it proves an interesting view point.
It’s a pity you’ve missed the Brexies in the Guardian because those articles have been some of the better cases for Brexit - I think they know they aren’t preaching to the converted and can’t do the normal jingoistic nonsense. They probably have been less prevalent lately, but then as time has gone on it has become harder and harder to put a convincing, non-nationalist argument for continuing with Brexit (sadly the democratic one had its foundations undermined before the referendum was run).
I haven’t missed them. I read them too, more for a giggle though. Only the evening standard is less objective.
But one side is in control of the narrative and that is never a good thing IMO
Edit: IGM misread your comment so ignore last post
But it was still a vote for Brexit – and the concentrated effort by the remainers has been to ignore and/or attempt to overturn this by rabidly arguing against Brexit and denigrating those in favour of it rather than constructively and actively promoting a form of Brexit that retained the freedoms they feared losing (AKA potential compromise)
You seem unable to grasp what that means in a wider context than "leave the EU"
But if we had a vote on whether to stay in tonight or to go out, you wouldn’t consider that a vote to go out commits everyone to go to the opera, or to go downtown and get tattoos, or whatever else the person at the front decides to do.
Illustrates it perfectly....
We could equally have voted to all go to the cinema... and when we look at what's on we find nothing anyone actually wants to see and the only seat available are for a kids film and that all the options people had voted for the cinema for are not actually available.
Of course the only thing we lose is a night out in this case.
Now we have a few people in charge most of whom didn't want to go to the cinema (having an idea what was on) but are now insisted we all got a vote and we must all go through with it and watch the Disney film.
Rogue One was ok as Disney films go. Pretty good even.
Which Disney film do we think Brexit will be?
“Which Disney film do we think Brexit will be?”
Frozen, only without the happy ending
Fight club
apocalypse now
Dr strangelove
Zokes - surely it’s the Frozen sequel
Frozen Out
Mary Poppins ?
😄
Rogue One was ok as Disney films go. Pretty good even.
Which Disney film do we think Brexit will be?
I think the point is no-one knows ... obviously some Disney films are better than others but in this case we are committing to whatever happens to have seats left or we can just turn up and stand in the lobby if it turns out everything is booked up.
It might be Disney... it might not... it might just be the one that no-one else wants to see.
A sensible approach would have been to say "We'll go to the cinema if we can find something most of us agree on watching that has seats".... "or we might have to reconsider"
In this case the reasons for going to the cinema seem completely diverse as are the expectations of what that will be in practice. Of course some people want to go to the cinema even if it does mean not seeing a film and just buying some popcorn in the lobby but I don't think that's what most of those who voted had in mind.
“Zokes – surely it’s the Frozen sequel”
Thankfully I’m yet to be subjected to it 😁
Turns out the cinema was closed down last year and in its place there's just a big hole in the ground. Enjoy!
I would go with "song of the south". Since Disney really dont want to let anyone see it.
I see our Brexy is fixated on things from the past not the future.
Fair enough, it’s consistent. 😉
Was it a good film back in the day ninfan? Does it still hold up now?
(Actually I think the Brexies secretly see the UK as the Rogue One 😋)
Hey, I found a BoJo smiley 🤥
Farage 😩
Mogg 🧐
I know. It’s not big and it’s not clever. Bad igm.
🤣
given the €15bn budget hole that needs to be filled
...the Italian job ?
Very good.
Not Disney though. Paramount.
I mean you’ll be wanting Brewster’s Millions next
Sent off for not reading the question.
How about Aladdin, where a fat clown like creature promises your wishes will come true and there will be money aplenty if we just overthrow the nasty Grand Vizier.
Remember it’s a fairy story children.
I know I abused the rules of your game IGM just rather amused about Junkers conundrum and the fact that Italy is being left behind. Odd no one mentions their econ growth !!!
Too good to miss the lateral post.
Glad it all calmed down on here today - with the one obvious exception - those who can’t accept the result went a bit OTT yesterday.
The Jungle Book?
With King Louis played by BoJo and Moggy as Kaa. Farage and Banks would make good vultures, and the whadja wanna do, I don’t know, whadja wanna do scene is the Brexies all over.
Don’t think I’ve got an entry for Shere Khan though.
Problem.
Reckon if we can include the star wars prequals now disney have them its ep1 all the hype and promise but with 100% dissapointment
given the €15bn budget hole that needs to be filled …the Italian job ?
Perhaps they could save 350 million quid a week by leaving the EU? They could even get a big red bus to drum up support.
those who can’t accept the result went a bit OTT yesterday.
Pathetic troll is pathetically obvious
(Actually I think the Brexies secretly see the UK as the Rogue One 😋)
Nah, this is Brexit, the movie
00:58s was 23rd June 2016, The last 18 months have been the bit between the two fences... will we make the final jump or will the Germans manage to chase us down?
He doesn't even get his front wheel off the ground when it comes to "the final jump".
But, even though the remainers are trying as hard as they can to drag him back to the cooler, Every time you watch it, you still sit there hoping that, this time, he gets away with it...
Why does it not surprise me that the resident brexy invokes WWII?
Yep. Stuck in the past. Twice now. Three times if you include their vote in June 2016. And four if you include the way they keep going on about a vote two years ago like it ties the country’s hands in perpetuity.
History ninfan, get over it.
Have a fairy story smiley. 🧞♂️
What did you just say? “Get over it !!!!” 😀
bravo with the morning humour, which is much needed with cancelled trains and cold platforms
So spanking sessions with Barnier off the table now. Ach schade....
still compensated with “dynamic reciprocal mutual recognition models” to keep us going on fin services.
Scratched record is scratched.
You do know that most of the escapees got slaughtered at the end of the Great Escape? Even McQueen is recaptured and sent straight to the cooler...
I try with humour. You might as well laugh as the Brexies try to take the country to the gallows.
Hmm. The Great Escape? Do Brexiters have a persecution complex?
I prefer to smile as we overcome the perceived insurmountable obstacles (albeit slowly) - a relief and a positive surprise
Barnier will be choking on his croissant at the common sense proposal that we have for financial services!! I await his rebuttal with anticipation
Non, non, non...et enfin....d’accord
What did you just say? “Get over it !!!!” 😀
Oh my giddy aunt.
You couldn’t make it up could you? 😂
You won we lost get over it and tell us your solution to all the problems you are causing.
I prefer to smile as we overcome the perceived insurmountable obstacles (albeit slowly) – a relief and a positive surpriseBarnier will be choking on his croissant at the common sense proposal that we have for financial services!! I await his rebuttal with anticipation
But where does this get us other than one obstacle?
How much better off will UK's financial services be or is this more about limiting the loss?
As with most things Brexit I'm not seeing this as a positive but just damage limitation in order to try and not lose out as much as we might.
What I haven't seen is any upside... what jobs does this CREATE (not preserve) .. what income will it bring (not try and maintain)
Steve
we have to deal with what is in front of us not what we wish was in front of us.
So my thought process is to think what does the proposal mean versus the alternative (as Barnier pretends) not what we have now
So a very sensible proposal that the EU would be foolish to reject - let’s see what they choose to do...
Oh go on..tell us what the common sense proposal is, THM , as you seem to be so close to it all