[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

But but but...the euro has already failed, remember? It’s dead, you can’t use it any more and I haven’t got a wallet full waiting for my next trip 😳

Nope. Cmon mike at least get one easy fact correct

16.1m of us, not enough

No, we falsely promised Armageddon and people saw through it. Correctly it turns out

Nope. The voters would have had nothing to vote about without being given the opportunity in a referendum. Which was supposed to fix Tory party squabbles.

How dare people be given a say?!? We tried that with the Scots and almost screwed that up too. We didn’t learn did we?!?

why would anyone give people a say. Glad no one is suggesting another referendum then ....

He called the referendum

that all three major parties had previously promised...

Which was supposed to fix Tory party squabbles.

That’s right, Tory Party squabbles:

😀

Oh good… another politician who's played politics.

That doesn't give us a way forward that the country can get behind? Does it?

Be helpful… outline a replacement for EU membership that a majority of people would support over retaining membership…

<spoiler>16.1m of us, not enough</spoiler>

the 16 million you want to ignore - that always ends well - Still a democratic right to campaign to remain however uncomfortable it makes you

<spoiler>No, we falsely promised Armageddon and people saw through it. Correctly it turns out</span>

Crystal Balls again? Let us know after we leave

That doesn’t give us a way forward that the country can get behind? Does it?

Be helpful…

Be helpful? I know, how about we ask the public what they want in some sort of vote, and then we can all get behind the outcome of that?

I'm amazed nobody has tried it before.

the 16 million you want to ignore

As opposed to the 17 million you want to ignore you mean?

So, outline an alternative to membership that you think would be "more popular" than retaining membership. Go on … just for fun, while we wait for politicians to stop kicking the can…

<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px;">As opposed to the 17 million you want to ignore you mean?</span>

As soon as May and Davies can present what that looks like we can evaluate if it meets the needs and desires of the 17m, Sound fair?

So, outline an alternative to membership that you think would be “more popular” than retaining membership. Go on … just for fun, while we wait for politicians to stop kicking the can…

Hmm, an alternative to membership that I think would be “more popular” than retaining membership? That’s a tough one.... how abou leaving the EU?

I only wish I could come up with some form of “evidence” that would show this would be a more popular alternative than retaining membership. If only I could think of some form of way we could have gone out and asked people their opinion and decided which was the most popular option before making our minds up?

nope, totally stumped, sorry.

This could be quite long and boring…

…but the point is, as soon as you propose a model to replace membership of the EU with, while you'd win over many people who voted Remain in the "Membership VS MysteryMeat" referendum (the better the devil you know reluctant remainers who prefer your model), you'd lose (I'd suggest) many more who voted Leave expecting quite a different type of meat was going to be in the mystery box (the this isn't what I voted for brigade).

nope, totally stumped, sorry.

You and the government, try some details, markets, immigration, borders, flights, nuclear, trade....

If your proposing the cut all ties model then see how many agree with you?

Good job the gov isn’t proposing that mike - except in the minds of the most extreme manipulators of the truth

Oooo so how many support each model? We need another poll as you don't actually know do you

THM, we're hoping Ninfan might outline what he wants, and to discuss how much support his suggestion would get… while we wait for the exiting speeches from government ministers planned in the next few weeks that are (so it has been spun) supposed to outline for the first time what the government wants to replace membership with. Or you could save those ministers the effort and tell us now…

(just to get one step ahead, people have tried to support the myth on here by quoting general election results and ignoring the scottish parliament, so please don’t do that again, it’s really silly)

The historical general election results are rather important for general elections. Since those show the same voting methods in use. Its why for example MEP elections are pretty useless for GE.

Yes they were in trouble before but the absolute collapse has an odd overlap with the numbers going to the SNP and the post referendum blame games.

You and the government, try some details, markets, immigration, borders, flights, nuclear, trade…. If your proposing the cut all ties model then see how many agree with you?

no, I’m proposing that we leave the EU.

the precise details of what that might end up looking like, I’m perfectly happy to leave open to negotiation.

to outline for the first time what the government wants to replace membership with.

Non membership? Does that help?

So Leave Regardless 1 Vote.

So Leave Regardless 1 Vote.

No, I think you’ll find it was “leave” 17,410,742

there were no conditions placed on this, it was a vote to leave

i would suggest that anyone seeking to caveat or pre-condition their choice in the way you purport to be valid would be somewhere within the 25,359 rejected ballots.

So, go on, outline the replacement for EU membership that more people would prefer to remaining a member…

No, that was the past, this is the present when we need to flesh this whole thing out, if you don't care what it looks like then that is fine - 1 Vote. Other people do not agree with you, as shown by the posters in here asking for different things and giving different reasons for leaving.

Is this really a difficult concept to cope with?

So, go on, outline the replacement for EU membership that more people would prefer to remaining a member…

not remaining a member

That’s the replacement for EU membership that 17,410,742 voters were all agreed on support for

You may have missed it somewhere amids all the noise and hyperbole of the hysterical (but clearly superior, younger, outward looking and more intelligent) remainers wailing and screaming about not getting their own way for once

As difficult as the concept of a negotiation.

A negotiation that involves compromise etc

?

i would suggest that anyone seeking to caveat or pre-condition their choice in the way you purport to be valid would be somewhere within the 25,359 rejected ballots.

Convenient.

So you dont feel that some people may have been mislead, either to vote remain or leave, based on the faulty advertising?

Or maybe thought that as it was an advisory only referendum that there would be a second chance to review what was decided on by the elites.

A negotiation that involves compromise etc

Indeed THM, one that requires compromise. However I’m sure you would agree that, of course, that the single unifying factor of everyone who voted to leaves vision of what leaving looked like was that it involved leaving.

at the moment the STW remainer vision of “compromise” appears to involve “well, you leavers need to compromise on leaving, and we’ll just carry on as we were as if nothing has changed”

 it was an advisory only referendum that there would be a second chance to review what was decided on by the elites.

i don’t know where they might have got that idea, since the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom told us all that the Government would enact whatever the decision of the people in the referendum was, and indeed the government was elected on that basis, as was the successor government elected on upholding the outcome of the referendum and putting it into action.

one would have assumed that if there were widespread, nationwide opposition to this course of action, then the political parties pledging to overturn the outcome of the referendum and not pursue the plan to leave would have won th3 subsequent general election?

democracy eh?

Actually I am all for a compromise that doesn't completely **** up manufacturing industry or lead to people blowing stuff up in Ireland. Basically the things the quitters couldn't be arsed to think about when placing a big old X.

C'm on ninfan - tell us how to solve these problems instead of just trolling. You and your 17M mates voted for this. I don't think it unreasonable that you should have to come up with some solutions.

My compromise solution is something that looks exactly like we have now but we get a blue passport for example

C’m on ninfan – tell us how to solve these problems instead of just trolling. You and your 17M mates voted for this. I don’t think it unreasonable that you should have to come up with some solutions.

Would you accept an outcome/compromise that involved us leaving the EU?

and if so, why haven’t you spent the last eighteen months campaigning in favour of that rather than campaigning to ignore the outcome of the referendum?

Lots of people who voted Remain could get behind a compromise that got rid of EU membership, but minimised the impact on their rights of movement, and their line of work… but lots of people who voted Leave would be dead against that. So… outline the compromise you have in mind… outline a proposed replacement for EU membership that more people would back over continued membership than wouldn't…

Its a negotiation we made an offer we were happy with (stay you get a blue passport - it seems very important to some) now you counter offer

Just as I thought - tedious troll doesn't have any solutions.

Of course not, that would involve alienating people who don't want that version of leave (along with the rest of the country who democratically don't matter)

As for why people have campaigned against a few reasons

We Can - it's called democracy

We are still waiting for a credible plan from the government that doesn't contradict itself or be full of holes- until that happens don't expect much support

We see a no win outcome where the UK will be worse off with the only good news being it's not quite as bad as we first though (ie still not good or better than now)

Everything is about economics for you guys. For many people there are much wider issues

outline a proposed replacement for EU membership that more people would back over continued membership than wouldn’t…

I don’t believe there is any compromise that could retain continued membership of the EU, sim0ly due to the fact that that wouldn’t be a compromise, it would be ignoring the outcome of the referendum

everything else is up for grabs

edit: @THM, indeed, “worse off” is a relative term isn’t it - even the much cried over economic predictions accept its a case of “not quite as better off economically than we might have been but still better off” - and that’s before anyone discusses the effect on schools, housing, community integration and social cohesion, etc - all of which involve highly subjective considerations of what “better off” and “worse off” might mean

That they seem to be unable to vocalise or agree on, it's tough having to actually do something isn't it.

Also worse off is in a wide ranging sense from diversity, tolerance and a spirit of cooperation that has reverted to petty squabbling and a lot of anger/hate.

Still when the government pipe up we will all know the secret plan and will all obediently agree it's the only gig in town and we had better all just jolly well get on and enjoy it. #DemocracyForDictators

Right then

everything else is up for grabs

We want single market, freedom of movement, cooperation, happy to pay for access, some influence in decision making and the ability to get back in if and when it's deemed a good idea. Throw in citizenship or lifetime residency with all current EU citizens living in the UK and we might be getting somewhere. Also rule out bad deals with the US involving Health and Food

I don’t believe there is any compromise that could retain continued membership of the EU

So if we ended up with a Norway style deal do you think that would really be in the spirit of all the people voting leave?

We are giving up membership - that is what people voted for

Each of the other solutions - including WTO - involve compromises in relation to the governments stated objectives

The outcome will be determined by negotiations.

By presenting a divided front we make the likelihood of a negative solution more likely. Which is why the EU surpress their divisions while we seek to magnify and expose them. Who are the fools?

Economics THM money's not important until there isn't any... can't pay your bills from the morale high ground... etc

That’s right, Tory Party squabbles:

Aah - I missed the bit where Nick Clegg became Prime Minister. Suddenly your posts all make sense.

@teamhurtmore

So, @Ninfan, if the goverment said that our new relationship with Europe included getting rid of our Schegnan opt out, as part of helping to keep a close working relationship with the rest of Europe, what support would that have in the wider populaituin? Would it have your support? It would no doubt win over lots of people who voted Remain back in the day.

So if we ended up with a Norway style deal do you think that would really be in the spirit of all the people voting leave?

Jesus, it’s really difficult to get you fixed mentality remainiacs to open your eyes and ears isn’t it?

Q. does it involve leaving the EU?

A. = Yes - then it encompasses the variation of outcomes inherently considered acceptable by those who voted to leave the EU in the referendum (the majority)

A. = No x then it does not encompass the variation of outcomes inherently considered acceptable by those who voted to leave the EU in the referendum (the majority)

have you got it yet?

The outcome will be determined by negotiations.

By presenting a divided front we make the likelihood of a negative solution more likely. Which is why the EU surpress their divisions while we seek to magnify and expose them. Who are the fools?

Ah our opinions both don't matter and are highly dangerous. Great to know.

The outcome of the negotiations should be weighed up to see if it is in fact a good deal, otherwise we have just failed deal making 101 by admitting from day 1 we will take anything that is offered or go for the nuclear button.

I'm sure if required THM would be calling Pickfords to organise his move to Athens or Krakow if the deal said it was the only way....

You are getting the hang of that spoiler gimmick aren’t you. It’s very smart.

We should all shut up and be happy with what we are given by the back-room wizards. That's democracy.

Ah our opinions both don’t matter and are highly dangerous. Great to know.

Starch with that ?

Troll conviently ignores pages of comments about EU workers and our rights (and those of our children) as regards movement for work, education, adventure, love…

Those things are hard to express in pounds and pennies, and hence of no importance.

Its one party that is now 99% focused on pounds, shillings and pence including fretting that our GDP may be a full 0.1% below a previous forecast.

You decide which is more important

have you got it yet?

I am just fascinated by the sheer stupidity of putting everything from the Norway option to WTC rules under one banner. I am not sure if its deliberate or not?

We should all shut up and be happy with what we are given by the back-room wizards. That’s democracy.

you mean like when we weren’t given a referendum on the EU constitution/Lisbon treaty that was rustled up for us by the back-room wizards, despite repeated promises and an election manifesto pledge to give us one? That sort of democracy?

Indeed dissonance - have you noticed how people react when you mention bespoke deals that take into account the important nuances. Some even praise the Norway off the shelf idea. Odd isn’t it?

Bespoke = anything

Norway has been praised as a better than some of the crazy talk - though worse than current

Another non sequitur. You're on a roll tonight.

That (Norway) at least is true

Indeed dissonance – have you noticed how people react when you mention bespoke deals that take into account the important nuances. Some even praise the Norway off the shelf idea. Odd isn’t it?

Of course it’s Odd, some people find lots of things odd, like not committing yourself to a particular outcome in order to give yourself room to negotiate the best possible broad outcome - would you believe that some people find that odd too? I suspect that it’s mainly the type of people who go in to buy a new car or house and open discussions by telling the other party what the actual maximum price they would possibly be willing/able to pay is though. Mind you, if it’s those type of people then we probably shouldn’t be surprised that they expect negotiations to be concluded pretty quickly, should we?

Bespoke = anything

It is about as useful a term as "brexit means brexit". About its only use is as a way of judging people. Anyone who witters on about it can be safely ignored.

Norway has been praised as a better than some of the crazy talk – though worse than current

The "worse" is quite important though. Since anyone who voted to "restore democracy" (another pretty useless term) should be appalled by the idea. Also anyone who is still stupid enough to believe Boris and his lies about 350 for the NHS.

Since they pay in the cash and follow the laws but have sod all say.

 I suspect that it’s mainly the type of people who go in to buy a new car or house and open discussions by telling the other party what the actual maximum price they would possibly be willing/able to pay is though. Mind you, if it’s those type of people then we probably shouldn’t be surprised that they expect negotiations to be concluded pretty quickly, should we?

What like Red/Pink (pencil) lines?

Like saying we will take whatever deal we are offered or go for the option no other developed country uses?

Or by letting ministers prattle on and contradict the negotiations?

Yes there is a hope some sort of deal can be struck quickly as the alternative is exceptionally messy (even for those sticking their fingers in their ears about any reports) if not at least MP's will have a say at the end.

I suspect that it’s mainly the type of people who go in to buy a new car or house and open discussions by telling the other party what the actual maximum price they would possibly be willing/able to pay is though.

Ah, of course, the "keep your cards close to your chest" bullshit the media were pushing last year. No one believes that any more.

The government can't form a plan that the majority of them don't consider a dud. When brinkmanship forces them to make the difficult decisions, the chance that most of the public consider their plan a dud is pretty damn high… then what?

Being a member of the EU is better than the “Norway option” which is a total dogs breakfast. WTO option is my preference and aside from that pretty much anything is better than being a member.

Being a member of the EU is better than the “Norway option” which is a total dogs breakfast.

Agree. Customs arrangements are woeful.

pretty much anything is better than being a member

I'm sure you can picture a "bespoke deal" that you consider binds the UK to closely to its largest trading partner… with no control over how that partner transforms itself in future.

How about some concrète solutions ?

Like for Northern Ireland.

Look. The Remainiacs want  a bad outcome so they can 1) say we told you so 2) try and get Brexit reversed

As for the car buying example its more like telling the salesman you are buying the car come what may and at any price of his choosing

IMHO we will get the best free trade deal with the EU if we make a clean break and trade under WTO for a while for a bit

Look. The Remainiacs want a bad outcome so they can 1) say we told you so 2) try and get Brexit reversed
…
IMHO we will get the best free trade deal with the EU if we make a clean break and trade under WTO for a while for a bit

So, Jamba, your "good outcome" is to Leave with no deal… and then start working on an FTA from a position you view as strength. In that case, what is the "bad outcome" you claim "remainiacs" want?

You want a very different outcome to many people that voted Leave. Yes Jamba? Multiple conflicting alternatives to membership are still in play… is there one that, in your opinion, would win the support of the public when compared to continuing membership? I haven't seen much to suggest that there is one… the politicians leading our two main parties obviously don't think they've identified one yet.

I’m not sure why you’re all bothering.

Jamby is yet to back up a single point of his with fact (other than with graphs that don’t cover the time period in question or that support the argument against his position).

Ninfan simply trolls for a reaction.

THM quite happily lies about the content of a post just above his own, then goes silent when called out on it.

All three deliberately derail discussion with misrepresentation of facts that are at best tangential to the point at hand.

If they could agree on what they want… as Brexit cheerleaders… that might be informative… it might even be something we could reluctantly get behind as well.

If they could agree on what they want… as Brexit cheerleaders… that might be informative… it might even be something we could reluctantly get behind as well.

We have agreed, that we all want to leave the EU.

its the one thing that you lot have spent 18 months trying to argue we shouldn’t be allowed to do.

If the remainers had spent less time shuffling places between screaming, calling us names and burying their heads in the sant we could have had a meaningful discussion about agreeing on an outcome that respected the will of the majority (ie. to leave the EU) but in a manner that retained some of, what you felt to be, the advantages of membership via a future agreement.

instead you’ve wasted any goodwill you might have had by spending 18 months calling us names and trying to ignore the outcome of the referendum.

It was your own unwillingness to talk sense that means the “extreme brexiteers” as you put it ended up negotiating the outcome.

your loss

Oh zoky you are so unkind. Do you know how much effort it takes to fit into to the rest of the discussion 😢

point of order kelvin - I am a remainer, not a Brexshiteer. So you can make stuff up about other things but I would prefer you not to misrepresent my position. Is that okay my old china -  little less time with silly gimmicks and a bit more with the truth?

Talking of truth, how about those who cannot accept democratic votes give up making stuff up for Lent? There’s a thought

40 days of honesty - I know it’s hard and we can leave the main guy out as the religious overtones might just push him over the edge, so can the rest of you manage it?

only 40 days and then back to making what they hell (oops) you like up after that....

LOL at ninfan blaming the remainers...

Anyway one more try - any solution to the NI border? I'll be honest - I don't have a clue how to make it work so please share your solution.

Edited - I probably shouldn't be rude.

You are not alone AD - aren’t you amazed that the EU let it pass with a fudge?

I mean it’s not as though they don’t look after peripheral members is it?

No solution? Sshh, you don’t tell, we don’t tell. It’s the way we do things. Remember those funny Maaatricht Criteria?!?  Same idea....

@Ninfan, try following the key back room people in the Leave campaign(s) on twitter… they disagree with each other more than I possible could disagree with them, even if I tried. Several have had to delete there accounts, because the LeaveOnLeave vitriol was getting so bad. The idea that it is people who want to keep retaining EU membership on the table are the ones preventing some kind of consensus on what we might replace membership with, is laughable.

And @teamhurtmore, you are a Brexit cheerleader… the fact you think it isn't the best course of action hasn't dampened your fervour for it over the last year or so.