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The government and the opposition simply want to get in for party political reasons , regardless of the fallout. Short termism at its best. Sod the country.
blaming Brexshit for NHS nursing is BS
Sigh - many factors - one of which is Brexit - all the others lie at the door of the government… so, a combination of the government's approach to Brexit, and their movement of the goalposts for migrant health workers within the EU, and the hostile costly environment they have deliberately created for migrant workers from outside the EU, and the removal of funding for training for UK recruits, and the crisis in funding of NHS hospitals, and lack of funding of in community nursing, and arms length provision of nursing homes, and care homes… and… all AS WELL AS BREXIT.
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Labour are just the worst of all at the moment, they are sitting on the fence just to win the next election on ambiguity...
Being generous… it's because they also can't form a Brexit plan which would be supported by more than about a third of the population… both parties keep kicking the can down the road… what choice do they have?
There has been a 0,4% in total nurses according NMC figures from the peak two years ago. Drop in EU nurses is less than 5%, 1,765. NHS figures for England show increases for both.
It's not labour's job, it's not labour's mess, and unless strong 'n' stable calls another election, one way or the other it'll be done before they get a chance to do anything about it even if they had the most coherent policy ever formulated.
Sure, I personally would be much happier if they had a policy position that was articulate and clearly stated, but I'm also wise enough to see why for political expedience, having their cards on the table might not be such a good idea right now. It's not as if they need to take political risks to score points on the government right now, the Tories are astonishingly good at that themselves.
And here comes mefty also in egypt. Read the NMC figures - they are for TOTAL nurses across the UK not just NHS ENGLAND
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">" [quote="jamba"]Banks like Deutsche are much more of an indicator and they’ve said they will move lower level trade processing to Germany, high value add positions remain in London"</span>
And this has been categorically ruled out by thew EU as insufficient. Computer systems senior staff all have to be under EU law to trade in much of the EU financial service market
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">Michel Barnier, the European Commission’s chief negotiator, publicly ruled out a special deal for the City in December, stating that Theresa May’s red lines on Brexit made the loss of the so-called “passporting rights” inevitable. </span>
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> </span>
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">“In leaving the single market, they lose the financial services passport,” he said in an interview with European newspapers at the time.</span>
TJ if brexshit has shown us anything it's that it's all about little England!
NHS digital said that the rise in unfilled nurse positionz rose by 8% last year, im sure we can't blame Brexit for all of that but certainly doesn't help.
DUBLIN (Reuters) - Britain’s financial companies can either establish full-blown subsidiaries in the European Union after Brexit or fall back on financial regulatory “equivalence”, European Commission Vice-President Valdis Dombrovskis said on Thursday.
EU negotiators see no room for Britain keeping “passport” access to EU financial markets for its banks, diplomats in Brussels said earlier this week. And Dombrovskis told a separate event in Dublin late on Wednesday this could be discussed given Britain’s wish to leave the single market.
“Equivalence is applied to a third country with a regulatory and supervisory framework comparable with the EU and can be used as a tool,” Dombrovskis told a news conference in Dublin.
“Another possibility, which is currently available is the establishment of presence in the EU27, that doesn’t mean letterbox companies.”
Equivalence is a legal mechanism that allows countries from outside the bloc to access the single market of 440 million consumers in limited circumstances.
Banks were already speaking to local authorities in connection with relocating within the single market, Dombrovskis said.
“This is all that is currently available, but I cannot prejudge at this stage what the outcomes of the negotiations will be,” he added.
Thats the EU position
Equivalence has been ruled out by May and co with their adherence to stupid redlines, passporting is ruled out, letterbox companies are ruled out. All thats left is for the banks to move their operations into the EU unless May can come up with something in the next couple of weeks. Financial services have siad they need clarity by march.
it’s not labour’s mess
Oh, but it is. Without Labour MPs playing their part in the Leave campaign, do you really think things would have gone the same way? And the Labour leader going MIA when it came to key national campaign set pieces fed into the anti-Cameroon aspect of the vote. Oh, and the small matter of calling for A50 to be triggered early, and then whipping MPs to support triggering A50 without first planning what should replace EU membership. And if that wasn't enough to "doubt" the Labour leadership… since the snap election it has done bugger all to help form the future of this country or to hold the government to account over the Brexit issues… and yes, those are rules we should expect the official opposition to perform. Labour are failing us just as much as the government… when did they last do something that made you think that we'd be any better off as regards the Brexit process if they were to take power?
“Oh, but it is.”
No, it really isn’t. Labour (if you can call them that back then) were last in power in 2010. It’s not their fault hamfeatures was too chickenshit to get his party in line, just as it’s not their fault May has less backbone than an amoeba.
No cameron’s ego, no referendum, no Brexit
You can pretend none of this is on Labour at all, if you wish.
Feel free to address some of the points in my post, if you have strong opinions about Labour's role as regards Brexit.
Kelvin - as well as, much better!
Labour’s position is a clear as the Tories. The only difference if one party had the responsibility to execute the result of the democratic process. It takes some extreme political myopia to present Brexshit as a Tory issue. That this is what happens, is however, unsurprising
Thanks for the quotes TJ. How many UK banks already have subsidiaries in Europe that will give them full passporting rights? All but two and they are setting them up even the one that is essentially a domestic bank. What happens to EU banks with operations in the U.K. in the full colour not the monochrome world?
No one had ruled out equivalence and there remains a possibility that passporting will continue in some form. Why? Because that is in both sides best interests. Unlike some, I UK banks got on with it a long time ago which is why CEO of Barclays claims that he is far far more bigger concerns. So time to blow away the froth
“You can pretend none of this is on Labour at all, if you wish.”
And you can pretend that Jeremy Corbyn personally held a gun to the heads of every voter to make them vote leave.
See, we can both do hyperbole.
Fact remains, Cameron took a gamble with the nation for purely self-serving reasons and lost. The fact also remains that neither labour as a whole nor Jeremy Corbyn made him do it.
Your move.
Labour are also split if nowhere near a badly as the Tories. It is an issue for sure which has made it tricky for labour to produce a position that would satisfy everyone in the party. However while the tories make a huge mess of it and while Labur are not in power all Labour has to do is sit back and watch the tories implode.
Labours position has become more refined and work is underway to refine it further. Looks like a Norway style solution is what they are going to plump for
Your move.
Waiting for you to address some (any) of my points as regards Labour's role in the referendum, and failure to act as an effective official opposition since.
Did the presence of Labour MPs in the Leave campaign make a difference? Don't forget how close the vote was in the end.
When did Corbyn last question May about her handling of Brexit at PMQs?
Zokes - the friend of democracy. Does letting the people have a say in their future terrify you that much - even from Aus?
but you are being unfair on Labour. They are going to deliver a very different Brexshit. A jobs first version don’t you know. Hurrah
It’s a simple question: did Jeremy Corbyn force David Cameron to hold the referendum?
You can try as much whataboutery as you like, but the root cause remains
That is a very simple question… I'm not sure the answer accounts for what Labour have done since the referendum was called though.
But what is the answer?
The referendum was called because the Conservative party has been at war with itself over the EU for years. How does that answer any of my questions around the role of Labour politicians during the referendum campaign, and since?
Did CMD campaign for leave?
What was the root cause? More people voted to leave than to remain. Inconvenient as facts are. Still blame it on Dave. How dare the great unwashed have a say.
It’s immaterial. No referendum, no behaviour during or since.
Look, I’m inclined to agree in many respects with your argument, Kelvin. But as I said in my own post, I can also understand the party political benefit for remaining opaque at this stage. Let the Tories destroy themselves, let it become ever increasingly apparent to all apart from hurty, Jamby and ninfan just how damaging Brexit will be, then clarify the party’s position when the time is right.
Keeping your powder dry is a well known phrase for a reason, and is very apt here.
Cameron was one of the Leave campaign's biggest assets… he was also responsible for the "what you have now, or the contents of this box" referendum, held using the rules for an advisory referendum, but treated as an instructional one… and then pissed off! No single person is more responsible for where we are now.
All those non Tory leavers being led by the nose by Dave!! No really.
Compare the efforts - good or otherwise - made by the party leaders to prevent Brexshit then revert
Very amusing… the tribal blindness of both of you.
Kelvin take a look at Corbyn, it need nit be a long or a hard look to see what a huge contribution he made to Vote Leave. Then look at the map of the country and voting .. it was the Midlands and North that won it for Leave. Wales voted Leave.
BNP Oops interesting (would add that red faced smiley but nothing works here any ore). Well they are wasting their time and money imo 🙂
My personal view is labour should have taken a much tougher line and been leaders not followers ie Burnham is a classic example of this - Remainer, understands the importance of remaining but so scared of anti eu propaganda and its effects in the north of England that he remained only on the fence and indeed in his campaign for Manchester Mayor descended into racism
Labour has lost its way and lost its ability to lead.
POeople Like Hoey should have been kicked out for sharing a platform with Farage, Burnham should have been brought into line.
“Very amusing… the tribal blindness of both of you”
So is your insistence to disagree with someone who is by and large agreeing with the sentiments of your argument
Dave hoodwinking the great British public
we will ask the British people whether they want to stay in on this basis, or leave. We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome
how very dare he
Yes, he treated it as instructional, but the referendum bill was only passed by parliament in its form because it was for an advisory referendum.
We've done all this to death.
And you still cannae accept the democratic process
[ removed - pointless feeding of the troll feedback loop ]
You’ve only just noticed?
He's just very good at it Zokes.
I think it fills a hole in his life
Given how THM destroyed any vestige of credibility by being unable to back up his assertions in any way when pressed especially his insistence that he knew the Tories end aim / preferred outcome in all this he has merely become a figure of fun / source of irritation. Thanks to Aracer I have the killfile back so ignoring him is easy. All his assertions have been proven wrong with evidence while he is able to provide no evidence for his position.
Kilfile not working very well Tj - wish it was
But you are correct that in moaner world my assertations do not fit well
1. We have had a democratic process - boo hiss, the proletariat had a say
2. Both major parties fought a general election on the basis of respecting the vote - we can see the results versus the party that didn't
3. The economy has not collapsed as our side predicted, indeed we are now upgrading economic growth and the labour market remains strong
4. You kindly disproved the false stories about the NHS - thanks
5. Ditto Tories and Canada plus, plus - thanks ^2
6. There has been no mass exodus of bankers nor a collapse in trading nor has the UK ruled out equivalence indeed the concept is central to many aspects of the trade negotiations
7. We are negotiating a trade deal contrary to your idea that this couldn’t happen
8. Ditto passing phase 1
9. The Eu is increasingly divided on how to handle Brexshit
10. Inconvenient facts are just that - inconvenient
[11 a simple google gives links to the trade options, the UK position and the challenges it’s very easy to keep abreast of things if one makes a very slight effort {
If you're using a killfile, don't switch it off to read that load of empty nonsense.
Indeed better than expected economic growth and jobs is empty nonsense. The surreal world of remainers who can’t stop complaining.
I didn't bother. The jury is back and the verdict is " piffle with nonsense elements"
We are trying to negotiate a trade deal (complain/backstab) then we get what we are offered. Any attempt to backtrack on the 3 key deliverables from phase 1 makes the deal null and void
A divided EU is a very bad thing for the UK as it needs a majority to accept the deal offered for the UK to get it.
You missed “self-important twaddle” 😀
😀
So mike - the EU end up with the UK delivering a hard Brexshit. What do they say about being careful what you wish for?
To which the EU will probably muster a Gallic shrug, if they can be bothered.
I'm not trying to make your ramblings coherent just point out some flaws in your positives list.
UK is over the barrel here.
Indeed zokes the health of the UK economy has no bearing on EU - what was the word? Twaddle?
Where did I say that?
This is great stuff. Keep it going.
Freedom for Yorkshire!
'Given how THM destroyed any vestige of credibility by being unable to back up his assertions in any way when pressed especially his insistence that he knew the Tories end aim / preferred outcome in all this he has merely become a figure of fun / source of irritation. Thanks to Aracer I have the killfile back so ignoring him is easy. All his assertions have been proven wrong with evidence while he is able to provide no evidence for his position.'
and for all your protestations it's an open sore you keep prodding.
if you're going to use the killfile ( and i strongly suggest you do ), i would suggest you also refrain from commenting on comments from THM that may also be brought out by others, as it is even more pointless referring to these without the context.
not that context adds very much, or he's saying anything new, but you know...
where's this quote button of which people speak?
So mike – the EU end up with the UK delivering a hard Brexshit. What do they say about being careful what you wish for?
which makes everyone happy, Legatum gets to vulture strip the UK, the EU gets the Japanese companies to relocate and make money. Various Tories get to make more money from their offshore funds etc. Obviously you saw that Mitsubishi have announced their partial relocation?
Everyone's a winner unless you happen to live and work in the UK.
if you’re going to use the killfile ( and i strongly suggest you do ), i would suggest you also refrain from commenting on comments from THM that may also be brought out by others,
This plus lots. It's really, really boring 🙁
Remember THM has written a 138 page report about this.
Those really will be some very well informed 12 year olds.
I don’t think copying and pasting from MS Encarta then changing the font really counts any more
all Labour has to do is sit back and watch the tories implode.
This attitude is completely defensible. IF you are solely concerned with Westminster politics and who is up and who is down, and don't give a shit about what happens to the country in the meantime.
Personally, I don't subscribe to that point of view and will find it very hard to forgive any of the Labour politicians currently involved in this farce.
Thanks to Aracer I have the killfile back so ignoring him is easy.
is that the Greasemonkey script ?
Personally, I don’t subscribe to that point of view and will find it very hard to forgive any of the Labour politicians currently involved in this farce.
Indeed. If the economic forecasts are to be believed - and I can't see any reason to doubt them - then its labours heartlands that are going to get clobbered the hardest by Brexit.
I don't think that when that all comes home to roost that 'well you voted for it' is going to wash. They have a duty to represent the interests of their constituents, and those interests sure the hell aren't being served by the present course. Unless the labour party changes its feeble 'constructive ambiguity' tack, and actually grows a pair, then they'll be rightfully tarred with the same brush as the Tory's for the incoming shitstorm as they're essentially complicit
Andrew Rawnsley summed the present situation of Brexit fuelled political impotence and inertia perfectly in the Guardian the other day
We have a government that can't govern and an opposition that doesn't want to oppose
Well worth a read - Since this government can’t govern, parliament must take charge of Brexit
klunk - no its something else that only works on chrome - link in the forum upgrade thread around page 29 IIRC
Point taken chaps BTW
Binners, the alternative viewpoint would be that Jezza and the Marxists interest is in us being outside of A1P1 of ECHR, as that is necessary for them to nationalise without compensation.
I would wager my bets on that being popular enough in the heartlands to offset the damage caused by their position on Brexit
im fact, a ‘worst case scenario’ Brexit plays perfectly for them, as it creates the conditions that would justify widespread renationalisation
Yey! Slash and burn… and rebuild based on pure but flawed long standing left/right ideology!
Should I be embracing the opportunities of disaster capitalism, or looking forward to the return of a nationalised car industry?
[ note, I don't believe for a second that those leading either party really want either of this things - as for national ownership and/or subsidy - keep your eyes on the much needed USA:UK trade deal - it'll be far more restrictive than anything the EU has - most EU countries have more state ownership of infrastructure provision than we do for example ]
Well, we tried a third way but you all hated Tony
that is necessary for them to nationalise without compensation.
Is that on the cards? Confiscating assets? Did I miss that?
Anyway. Brexit is seen as a Tory thing IMO, regardless.
....mistakenly
It was Cameron's idea no?
No he campaigned to remain
As did May
He called the referendum. If it weren't for eurosceptic Tories we'd be in still.
I think you mean if it wasnt for the majority of voters who voted leave, we'd still be in
[daves big idea (sic) was that he could reform the EU ]
A useful twitter thread on how the UK formed and reformed the EU in recent history…
https://twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/884474494512975872
Tony was not the third way it was Maggie's way just greed wrapped in the red flag. The third way is post may and post corbyn. It's probably 20 years from now.
The Tories have @130k members approx
13.6m voted for Tories in GE
17.4m voted Leave
you have to find your villains outside the Tories
Has everyone forgotten about Farage? Either he's your man, or more realistically he was the figurehead for the majority of the British population that wanted out of the EU.
Definitely nothing to do with the big two parties. They wanted in.
you have to find your villains outside the Tories<
Murdoch
Dacre
Farage
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px;">then its labours heartlands that are going to get clobbered the hardest by Brexit.</span>
Those same heartlands voted for Brexit.
Now they were ill advised to do so but the problem from Labours viewpoint is whether people will backtrack or whether if Labour goes against it whether those heartlands will go for UKIP or other semi camouflaged tory subsidary. Bearing in mind the hard right press will do their best to blame Labour for the asset stripping of their proprietors mates.
Labour have already had a taste of how damaging referendums can be in Scotland when despite digging the tories out of their mess they got all the blame.
It wouldnt be representing their constituents well if the same scenario is repeated in their heartlands.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;">Has everyone forgotten about Farage?</span>
He is really just a tory who got into a hissy fit and left the party and then found it far more fun and less hard work being a rebellious outsider.
Given the choice between disaster capitalism and disaster socialism we might hope that all bar the zealots on either side would actually try to avoid the disaster rather than just play along with it in the hope that their “side” won in the resulting blame game.
13.6m voted for Tories in GE
17.4m voted Leave
you have to find your villains outside the Tories
Troll post. Nothing more.
Labour have already had a taste of how damaging referendums can be in Scotland when despite digging the tories out of their mess they got all the blame.
A fair point. And you could point to this as a reason for Corbyn refusing to appear at major Manifestio campaign events… but, while that might help the Labour Party, it still contributes to our current position, which isn't rosey.
Everyone should read kelvin's link and all the Retreaters should just shut the **** up then **** off.
You could have added something to stop being labelled as such kelvin. Your choice.
or edit multiple times 😉