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<span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/01/29/angela-merkel-theresa-may-never-tells-wants-brexit/</span>
I haven’t. Kelvin
This little problem is becoming chronic now.
But if you don’t know what they are seeking you could read the papers, check the gov website or listen to the news.
Lol TJ.
we dont really know because she does not she is getting the best deal she can that will stop the tories imploding and her getting the sackif you don’t know what they are seeking
no one, not her not you,not I knows what this will really look like.
Still its good to see how much faith you have in politicians to deliver on their promises as you used to be scathing of them and if it was say the SNP saying this I imagine your tone would be slightly less reverential
We are going on holiday to the best and warmest destination. Where to I just told you [ as people shout multiple destinations and routes in the background] is essentially where we are.
The tories themselves admit there is no destination decided yet - they are going to have a meeting soon to decide.
that is of course when they will really start to fall out with themselves as 1) what many of hem say they want is simply not possible and 2) what is possible will not satisfy anyone but the rabid outies
"Hold up! Agree that this is the wrong thread, as this has nothing to do with Brexit… but he didn’t handle his condition partly because he couldn’t afford to attend his clinics"
The clinics discussed in the article aren't everyday diabetic care, they're where you end up after you've been killing yourself for many years. And many years of being told "you will die young if you carry on like this" by every doctor you speak to.
Like I say, I'm sympathetic to how people get there but it's a bit like smoking heavily for 50 years, getting diagnosed with cancer, keeping on smoking then saying you died because you couldn't get the day off to go to the doctor. He's not a good cause celebre.
Even Barnier has no idea what may and co want
He also said that the EU would not be finalising its guidelines for the talks on the future relationship until the EU summit in March. That gave the UK time to “clarify its position”, he said. He said the EU was still waiting for the UK to decide its official position. In the meantime, he would not be giving a “running commentary” on developments in British politics, he said.
And from the Torygraph
"The EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier has ruled out special arrangements for financial firms, while specific proposals for mutual recognition drafted by City bosses have also been knocked back by Brussels in recent weeks."
Which I think rather contradicts THMs assertions that May is making any progress on financial services. It is of course the obvious position to anyone who understands even a little of how the EU actually works. You know - the four freedoms are indivisible
But then assertions from tories that actually say nothing and are obvious non starters are nothing new
No it doesn’t but you do have to understand financial services to know that.
The FCA warnings yesterday give another hint on why the doomsday scenario presented those “who-want-to-remain-and-are-prepared-to-lie-to-achieve-their-goal-of-ignoring-a-democratic-result” are unlikely. Make nice lattes though.
The EU may like to present a hard face but they also know that they lose too especially in fin services and will also compromise. Listening to Newsnight podcast now and sensible point about Barnier’s little porky pie yesterday.
Interesting interview on farming today about frictionless trade and agricultural imports.
sell, sell now, the farmers are ****ed.
The fca doesn't sound that positive;
The head of the U.K. Financial Conduct Authority added urgency to Brexit negotiations by saying European governments must reach a transitional agreement for financial services by the end of March to avoid the risks presented by EU departure.
Financial contracts between the U.K. and E.U. worth up to a notional 26 trillion pounds ($36.4 trillion) -- particularly those related to derivatives and insurance -- may no longer be “serviceable” should an agreement not be in place, FCA Chief Executive Officer Andrew Bailey said Monday in a speech. He warned the effects would be felt in the EU as much as they would in the U.K.
Indeed it isn’t positive. So creating unnecessary noise (both sides) is silly.
Draghi joined in to yesterday with some sense
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px;"> That says absolutely bloody nothing</span>
It is as meaningless as the "bespoke deal" or "preparing for".
Of course people are trying to prepare but a)without good information they will be wasting a lot of resources on contingencies and also the plan they come up with may be a load of balls.
Anna Soubry firing the starting gun the Tory Civil War? I bloody well hope so. This farcical situation has looked unsustainable for god knows how long now, and is doing this country immeasurable damage. Its high time to call out the foaming-at-the-mouth, idealogical nut-jobs who've been calling the shots for two long.
She's right to call them zealots. Thats exactly what they are. And they need putting back in their box before they get to do irreparable harm
Don’t forget the nut jobs are getting noisy because they know that compromises are coming. An extreme version of Brexshit is becoming less likely not more. Hence the noise.
Hopefully so Hurty. Thats what the attacks on the civil service, the media, the judiciary, and pretty much everyone but themselves is about.
They're apportioning blame for that before it happens, because they know they were selling an undeliverable 'cake and eat it' fantasy.
What worries me is that their labelling of everyone who doesn't believe in their unhinged Empire 2.0 is a traitor/enemy of the people. And Mays cowardice in allowing them to get away with it is unforgivable
The language of the Brexiteers is becoming increasingly nasty, xenophobic and authoritarian. Rees Mogg in particular is a self-serving twonk who doesn't seem to care less about the repercussions of undermining democratic institutions, as long as it serves his ends
So a back-bencher calls for the sacking of the foreign secretary. That's going to happen then. Should give a clue as to where the balance of power lies...
I think it's too late to put them back in.
Every time moggy & co pop up with a fantastical unicorn heavy Brexit promise, the hard core brexies froth a bit more.
It makes Mays job of satisfying them ever harder.
And when DExEU comes up with some numbers admitting that Brexit is a terrible deal for the country, out come the remoaner civil servant conspiracy theories. Which feeds back into the frothing brexies....
All to serve the egos of a few populist nuts who would rather double down on lies than admit they are wrong
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px;">All to serve the egos of a few populist nuts who would rather double down on lies than admit they are wrong</span>
Some are populists nuts. Others just have a deep hatred for the EU for whatever reason (Gove is an example of this) and some others fancy taking advantage of the situation to push through their agendas.
Its going to be a very small number of people who end up really pleased with the outcome. Whether because we remain too tightly bound to Europe or not enough.
Question is whats going to happen to all those voters who thought it would signal a change in their favour?
Riots of course.
"Question is whats going to happen to all those voters who thought it would signal a change in their favour?"
Because Brexit is easier and cheaper to implement than remedying forty years of wealth inequality and lack of investment by a party which has absolutely no interest in doing anything to disturb the steady flow of cash upwards.
Good news! The (inner) cabinet are meeting today to start discussing what the UK's "opening pitch" will be as regards our future relationship with the EU.
[size=24]TODAY[/size]
But, of course, they've already made it very clear what that want to replace EU membership with… we've voted for it, and everything. Just don't let "them" know what it is, or it'll be harder to get what we want in the negotiations.
Riots of course.
That's a european thing. Tutting. Lots of tutting.
Farage proposed riots I seem to remember.
Sounds about right for Brexies / the far right.
We don't need to worry about the Retreaters taking to the streets.
Pre and post referendum exactly zero of the ****ers have been bothered to get their stupid fat arses off the sofa.
I'm not proposing them, just predicting them.
Of course, the "opposition" have also been very clear on what they want to replace EU membership with… people voted for them with full knowledge of that as well…
https://www.ft.com/content/618dbbc4-0740-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5
[img] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVWYuDOX0AATRiL?format=jpg [/img]
Both Labour and the Tories want a FTA with Europe. Neither view current options as being suitable for our needs - although lots of internal debate within both parties re the sticking points eg FoM, ECJ, transition arrangements and length - so both look for a “bespoke” deal.
Hence the noise. In the meantime we crawl towards a deal. Ironically amusing to see Barnier talking about the inevitable trade disruptions. For someone who represents several countries who are losers too from this, he seems remarkably relaxed
Neither view current options as being suitable for our needs
That neatly masks the fact that some people in both parties think that current options segregate us from our neighbouring market too much, and other people in both parties think that these same options keep us too closely bound to our neighbouring market. The "agreement" is that nothing has been agreed… nothing is clear. There is no plan for "the people" to agree with… but apparently we have.
Are we "crawling towards a deal" that has been explained to the electorate, or is that taking this "democracy" nonsense a bit too far?
Not sure why you find the concept of negotiations so challenging kelvin
yes of course it’s true on both sides there are differences about where the final lines should be drawn. Cue some expression including Sherlock Holmes
Oh, you are funny.
Block him and move on, Kelvin. Just like the brexiteers, the more he realises fewer people are listening to him, the more a caricature of himself he becomes.
Currently crawling away from a deal
Recent comments completely undermine the commitments given earlier regarding NI so right now its most likely a transition deal even will not happen
Kelvin - zokes has good advice.
Then you miss-understand again kelvin. No humour there, intended or otherwise.
Behind Barniers bluffing, they knowc exactly what we want and vice versa. They also know (1) they can’t deliver it for internal reasons and (2) they can’t allow the Uk to go to a hard Brexshit. So they have a dilemma. Notice how they jumped when TM hinted at HBrex last year?
Hence they fudged NI etc to move on. They need a deal too
now we can fart around pretending that the vote didn’t happen and/or we didn’t mess it up or we can get in with negotiating hard to ensure that we don’t end up with a hard Brexshit it’s not a tough choice
May seems to get that even if those who can’t accept the Democratic result can’t
Great visualisation on changes in social media since the referendum
https://cronycle.com/insights/brexit-2018-jan-edition
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Manfred Weber, leader of the centre-right European People’s party ( the grouping the tories used to be in before the loons started piling on the pressure) He is also a staunch ally of Merkel
"I hear a lot of things which London don’t want, but for the moment I have no idea what they want. No idea, no clarification about their orientation, about what they want to achieve.
I’m appealing to London: We cannot achieve anything with such a state of mind. The British government needs to come out with concrete proposals very soon, time is running and we need an orientation, what they want to achieve."
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So its obvious that May and go do not know where they want to end up and thus neither do the EU side contrary to what Davies and THM have said
May and her frenemies have told us exactly what they want to replace EU membership with… her/our intentions are clear… and we're backing her 100%! Rule Britannia!
My vote for a candidate from a party other than hers is also a ringing endorsement and overwhelming mandate for the clear plan she has set out before us.
The referendum was an overwhelming mandate for the alternative future relationship with Europe that Cameron laid before us when he called on us to choose our path. Such clarity! Such vision!
Negotiatimg for what, though? Has it been explained? Or agreed? Or (heaven forbid) voted on?
An interesting take on the present situation in the Tory party by Rafael Behr
I've just about given up reading anything from the Guardian… but that's a very well observed piece.
Dr
1. See v
2. Yes
3. No, that’s why we are negotiating
4. Not yet
anyone with access to the internet can access various sources that lay out (1) what we want - essentially 5 things - and under what conditions - 6-7 conditions depending on what you source. Then you can cross checks all these factors against the off-the-shelf solutions that could be chosen - to see the shortcomings and trade offs involved with each. From there you can see why we want a new - some might say bespoke - FTA that maximises the 5 and minimises the 6-7
i have posted various links in the past
So most of the claims made here and elsewhere are simply untrue. The info is there for anyone to see. So those who persist with untrue narrative are either too lazy to check or happy to deliberately state things that are untrue. Given that the intention is to overturn a democratic process, it seems grossly unfair to include this subset in the group known as remainers. That is very rude on genuine remainers.
Well link a few then, THM, or spell it out yourself. If not I'll assume you can't because there is no list of five things or 6-7 anywhere I've looked. I'm interested, go on, demonstrate that you can be informative and helpful.
You can assume what you like Ed. No skin off my nose.
In post brexit Britain, you don't rule britannia, britannia rule you. *
*unless you have non dom status
-
Have Philip Hammond and Jacob Rees-Mogg read your lists?
Perhaps the confusion is that TM is telling the EU to google it
5 things we want
Cake
Unicorns
Sovereignty
Blue passports
The British Empire back circa 1922
RM not clearly. His desires conflict obviously with several of the governments objectives
correctly TM ignores that
THM with more pish? there is not even agreement in the cabinet on what they want. The EU negotiators are alternating between pleading for some idea of what the torires want and laughing at them for being unable to spell it out.
So go on them THM - let us know what the government position is that you and you alone are privy to- 'cos not even May knows. The crunch cabinet meeting to thrash out the position is IIRC later this week.
No lists of hopes count of course. concrete proposals only please. Not wishlists of wishful thinking that are simply not possible and / or have already been ruled out
Put up or shut up. No answer just confirms what we all know - you have no idea at all and neother do the tories.
I prefer it when you use your kilfile
that way you might, just might, respect cougar’s wishes. Long shot obviously
Would you like the quotes again of Merkel, Barnier and other significant players asking for the Tories to actually spell out what they want?
"The British Government has still provided “no clarification” about what it actually wants to get out of Brexit, leaving the EU with “no idea” about the sort of relationship it is aiming for, a top Brussels ally of Angela Merkel has warned.
Manfred Weber, the leader of the largest group of MEPs in the European Parliament, said the UK needed “to come out with concrete proposals very soon” and complained that while Theresa May was happy to rule things out, she would not say what she actually wanted."
Have a listen to his statement
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-negotiations-talks-deal-manfred-weber-angela-merkel-germany-eu-michel-barnier-david-davis-a8196776.html</span>
Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s Brexit coordinator, suggested that the Prime Minister was locked in “a domestic negotiation” with her own cabinet about what her policy actually was.
Michel Barnier, the European Commission’s chief negotiator, also said on Monday that “without a customs union and outside the single market, barriers to trade in goods and services are unavoidable”. He said it was time for the UK to “make a choice”
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">On the Brexit negotiations themselves, he said the British government has unrealistic expectations — particularly on access to the EU market for financial services. U.K. Brexit Secretary David Davis has said the British government is seeking a free-trade agreement like the one the EU has with Canada but with much broader scope — “Canada plus plus plus” as he put it. And Chancellor Philip Hammond said last week he regards a post-Brexit deal that excludes services as unfair. “More than 80 percent of our economy is services. Services is the fastest growing area of global trade. And it is the area where we have our biggest comparative advantage,” he told the German paper Welt am Sonntag.</span>
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> Brok said that negotiations about the U.K.’s future relationship with the EU were so complex they would have to carry on into a transition period.</span>
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">But Brok said there aren’t any trade deals around the world open to financial services, and that the U.K would have to maintain EU standards if it wants to retain something close to the current access it enjoys.</span>
Ach schade kein kilfile
but thank you very much for proving me right. So you quote DD and PH being clear on the fact that one of our goals is to ensure that it (the deal that you deny) includes services (PH) and that it’s more than the Canada deal (DD) which only provides very limited access to services
so your chosen quote gives detail on part of what we want and also confirms that the warring parties agree. Bravo
its so much better when you supply quotes to kill your own arguments rather than other people having to point the pork pies out. Less time and angst
Even the FT
"Prime minister Theresa May is under mounting pressure to clarify the UK’s future relationship with the EU"
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">Downing Street said: “It is fair to say the prime minister has an open mind when it comes to these negotiations [about the future relationship with the EU].”</span>
Or the indy
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">It comes as Ms May faced increasing pressure to set out her position on the UK's long term relationship with the European Union in the face of growing dissatisfaction from both wings of the Conservative Party.</span>
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">The Prime Minister also resisted pleas to clear up confusion about her aims for the long-term relationship with the EU – despite warnings that her dithering would trigger a vote of no confidence in her leadership from Tory backbenchers.</span>
he is good at this trolling[ within the rules yet not respecting them] i will give him that
Ninfan is more entertaining though,even he can make cogent points in between his attempts to get a rise.
Not really junkyard - a good troll is believable and not easily refuted
come on THM - we want you to share your knowledge of this - knowledge not shared with May et al
So TJ now that you seem to be arguing for my points, we can progress
You have correctly identified that the UK government is seeking a FTA that includes services and that DD and PH both agree on that
So from your correct conclusion, we can now eliminate some of the existing off the shelf deals. Hey, it’s easy this stuff isn’t it?
after that - shall we try the Uak governments position on tariffs?
<div>teamhurtmore
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<div>Subscriber</div>
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<div>I prefer it when you use your kilfile
that way you might, just might, respect cougar’s wishes. Long shot obviously
</div>
The pot just called....
Se despite the collected EU negotiating team asking TM to give some proper details you still claim it's all there if we JFGI, though you are unable to actually point to the source you are reading. JRM despite being an obnoxious shit is also the figure head for the side of the party that have a significant amount of control on government policy due to the wafer thin majority/minority that May gave herself.
She can't ignore them and she can't do everything they want. But she can't negotiate properly with the threat of tanti's hanging over her..
THM - not at all
You claimed the UK position was clear. I have shown you that 1) the cabinet is divided and 2) the EU negotiators have no idea what the UKs position is
You said you knew what the UKs position was. Well lets hear it - put up or shut up.
That twitter map analysis is interesting.
I don't know if it’s meaningful, but it’s interesting.
it does suggest all the little Brexy snowflakes are melting away...
Yep
(the government and gov related bodies come up in the first few sites on any google search)
since you mention JRM you can help TJ with the tariff question. Then Jacob can be put back in his box and out of harms way
On the contrary having regurgitated ad verbatim what the other sides strat comm team want you to believe you then identified clearly (thank you) one of the key government goals and confirmed that PH and DD were agreed on that.
We are making progress. Now tariffs?
Not really going to play your little games, got links then post links, your always keen to shoot others down...
Any idea why the rest of the EU doesn't think the UK has a plan? Perhaps you need to get yourself over to Brussels and let them know how stupid they all are.
They are not stupid
They know how to manipulate the media narrative
You are demonstrating just how clever they are
If only our side was as smart and as media savvy
Tariffs?
a good troll is believable and not easily refuted
no that is an idiot. A good troll garners responses and a very good one garners them from folk who know what they are doing and still respond. He is going to hint and and allude to his point whilst wallowing in his own grasp of the opaque as he mocks your comprehension. We all know this. Nothing substantial will be forthcoming.
TBH I dont think he believes much of what he writes these days. Perhaps the slant but its just exaggerated for effect but neither side has any respect for the other.
I am not sure what anyone hopes to achieve here and I think this was what the mods were on about though we can all patronise within the rules. Its a bit pointless but we could.
Come on THM - we are all agog waiting to know what the tories hoped for end point is. Something concrete please not meaningless waffle and platitudes or something that is not possible / has been ruled out.
Your inability to articulate this shows clearly that you actually have no idea.
Put up or shut up
If tariffs is too tricky, how about
does the uk wish to negotiate trade agreements independently?
TBH I dont think he believes much of what he writes these days. Perhaps the slant but its just exaggerated for effect but neither side has any respect for the other.
Reckon it's just the latest recruitment drive for the Tory party, got to be some clueless mugs that fall for it still. The transformation of the inept HS to a spectacular leader who's charisma gave her an election result that she truly deserved and a job she loves with adoring supporters and a mandate to give every tory MP a shot at being a minister.
“No idea” - you old tease
you have just helped me identify one of the goals and one in which two apparently opposing parties are in agreement
dont spoil the progress
tariffs?
Does the UK government want to end the jurisdiction of the ECJ?
Here you go - some more quotes from serious commentators that show that May and co simply do not have an endpoint to aim for
The EU warned Britain that it faced gridlock in trade talks unless it spelt out its Brexit goals as the minority UK government struggled to deal with a backlash from its own MPs over a transition out of the bloc. ........
But, with concern growing in European capitals over political paralysis in London, Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, said that the subsequent phase of detailed trade talks would only begin as expected in March if the UK first made clear what it wanted.
“When it comes to negotiating with the British about the future, that time will come, assuming that they by that time have set out what they want,” Mr Barnier said.
The FT
Still waiting THM.
I have clearly asked you to set out what the tories end aim is - without posting meaningless platitudes or claiming impossible things are possible - you seem unable to do this. Why? Is it because you don't understand? Or is it because as the tories themselves admit they have no agreed aim?
Yes we know you like what Barnier says. - ok if you want to take that at face value fair enough esp as you know he was talking about fin service negotiations that you deny will happen too (so we know their starting position on passporting. So good to know there will be negotiations there too)
bsck to the idea that we have no idea what the Uk gov’s position is
1. services included - tick
2. Tariffs?
3. Jurisdiction of ECJ?
We can help, highlight the link, either Ctrl C then Ctrl V or right click Copy then Paste.....
It's not that hard...
[b]kimbers[/b] wrote:
5 things we want
Cake
Unicorns
Sovereignty
Blue passports
The British Empire back circa 1922
pfft
red unicorns
blue unicorns
green unicorns
orange unicorns
invisible unicorns (though we might be prepared to compromise on those, we know how tricky they'll be)
TJ is doing very well without them
go on try tariffs. Does the UK government have a stated position here? Yes? No?