Forum menu
A little respect goes a long way in promoting discussion and debate in a friendly manner.
I think you’re onto a lost cause with that one where THM is concerned. He’d sneer at his firstborn if it made him feel superior. This is evidenced by the fact he’s actually a remoaner [sic] himself.
When remoaners stop posting deliberate lies then they qualify as remainers - otherwise....it’s insulting to be lied to consistently by hard core remainers who are as bad/worse than hard core Brexshiteers
binners - the safe bet at the end of this is that there will be a trade deal. Why? Because it’s in both sides interests
this is where this whole “in” stuff is important and why people deliberately use the words “in the CU” to confuse people
"When remoaners stop posting deliberate lies then they qualify as remainers – otherwise….it’s insulting to be lied to consistently by hard core remainers who are as bad/worse than hard core Brexshiteers"
It's too easy to throw around terms to describe people who don't fit with one's own ideology. It's rife right now and it's not exactly helpful. I politely asked if we could have some respect in this thread, just before I agreed with your point.
I will politely ask once again if you would please desist from referring to those with whom you disagree as "Remoaners" and if in your view someone is either incorrect or mis-informed then perhaps it might be useful to politely explain this with citations.
Otherwise, end up in the situation whereby we fling thinly veiled insults at one another because it's all too easy to dismiss those who disagree by dehumanising them.
then perhaps it might be useful to politely explain this with citations.
In this particular case I suspect you stand more chance of Rees-Mogg leading the charge for a federalised Europe and the dissolution of the monarchy
binners – the safe bet at the end of this is that there will be a trade deal. Why? Because it’s in both sides interests
I find your naive confidence in our 'Negotiating Team' quite sweet and charming. You've seen who's in charge of negotiations, right?
What I don't understand is why May gets to transform the UK so profoundly in such a short space of time. Why don't we have any democratic input into the future of our country? I thought we were all into the democracy now?
May is also trying to quell the rebellions within her own party. You could argue that it's party before country, yet again and you may be correct.
IMHO, what should have happened immediately after the referendum result is the convening of an independent public inquiry to look into the causes, pros, cons and to make recommendations.
Its all about 'Taking Back Control' Molls
If you wanted to be picky you might also refer to it as the greatest assault on parliamentary democracy this country has ever seen, but, you know.... you're probably an enemy of the people
Now that the Tories have reneaged on Phs 1 by demanding a hard border in Ireland, how can anyone trust a word they say. That is really going to help with negotiations.
Binns. I would suggest that the naive thing is to believe that DD is in charge. Ditto Barnier. They are front men. The real work is done by their skilled teams.
How can an assault on democracy involve referendum, parliamentary votes and a final vote. Talk about twisting the truth.
Mol. You can’t argue for representative gov on one hand and then complain when they exercise that peer on the other.
@THM, I hope that you take my point on wording and language in the spirit that it’s intended?
Agreed on DD and Barnier being the public face on negotiations, that much should be obvious to anyone.
And do you feel that the Great Repeal Bill and subsequent debate about Brexit in both houses has thus far been given adequate time given the gravity of the situation we find ourselves in?
Mol. You can’t argue for representative gov on one hand and then complain when they exercise that peer on the other.
I can complain when it's executed badly, and I bloody well will thanks.
What's happened is there's been one vote on a very high level concept - to change the future of the country. And *every single part of that change* has been cooked up in secret by a small group of people.
There is no framework for this. There is no process. It's being made up as it goes along. Leaving the EU, that's one thing, but the reshaping of the country according to a small group of idiots, that's something else entirely. You think they should have that much power?
The real work is done by their skilled teams.
In secret, behind closed doors. What was that about representative democracy?
I've said many times over the years our system is ****ed. Still is, I'm still right.
How can an assault on democracy involve referendum, parliamentary votes and a final vote. Talk about twisting the truth.
In general, it is very easy for all of to us to identify where a referendum and/or other vote has been used to either dismantle, or work around, or prevent the taking up of, democracy. Both historic and contemporary.
Specifically… the referendum in question was not for any particular path to take, and was consultative not binding… and the result was far from decisive… however our parliamentary representatives feel bound by it… and a final vote on a deal, where the alternative is leaving with no deal, is entirely vapid… it does not allow whoever is voting (be it MPs or us) to either have a say over the deal, or to reject it in favour of continued membership if they/we consider it preferable.
What do you expect mol? we are involved in a negotiation with the EU. Do you want it live on SKY Brexshit so that those that you argue are not intelligent enough to participate in th vote can watch it instead of Jeremy Kyle
naked mud wrestling between Fox and Verhofstadt after the 21:00 threshold
there is a process so you are not correct, but there is no framework. Why? Because no one has done this before
It was very clear. It couldn’t have been clearer. Do you want to remain a member of the EU. Yes or No? Hardly high level - it’s a very basic core question and a perfectly valid one
naked mud wrestling between Fox and Verhofstadt after the 21:00 threshold
Still playing the "there is a plan, but it needs to be kept secret because of negotiations" card THM? No one believes that any more, do they?
It was very clear.
A narrowly won vote to Leave the EU does tell us what "the people" are happy to replace EU membership with. Some take it as a mandate for their own vision of the path ahead, some as a mandate for any path whatsoever that excludes EU membership. It's likely neither.
One thing that we have had drilled into us over the last year, is that when you hear the words "very clear", get ready for the very opposite.
"I would suggest that the naive thing is to believe that DD is in charge. Ditto Barnier. They are front men."
Of course DD (along with some other cabinet ministers) is in charge. Unless you believe in these conspiracy theories about how the civil service is trying to undermine brexit. Being in charge does not mean he's doing all the work, but it does mean he sets the policy agenda.
"One thing that we have had drilled into us over the last year, is that when you hear the words “very clear”, get ready for the very opposite".
Indeed. Those of us old enough to remember the Thatcher/Major era recall the repeated use of "in real terms" by politicians when confronted with the fact that their meaningless economic jargon actually meant cuts, stuff becoming more expensive or that the value of the pound had just fallen through the floor.
No - in fact never played that at all kelvin but feel free to make things up to suit
I have simply stated (appreciate that this is a tough one for you) that both sides have starting positions that they know are incompatible. From there, they will negotiate solutions that will involve a series of compromises on both sides. We saw that in phase one and we will see it again at every stage. Around this, there will be lots of noise
Tell me how a question - should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU? - could be considered anything other than very simple. The fact that non economist who regularly abuse the dismal science (sic) now focus all their time on arguing little else other than economics and in the meantime abusing data is rather amusing
DD setting the agenda? Is this a puss take? The EU set the agenda at every stage. Why does every fact have to be distorted at every stage??
Oh, silly me, I thought the various and unclear positions that members of our government keep spouting were simply "posturing"? Isn't that the word you use? We have no idea what the government want to replace membership of the EU with, because they haven't agreed it amongst themselves yet.
appreciate that this is a tough one for you
What an idiot I am for feeding the time wasting troll.
On the "promise" of lack of a Customs Arrangement (despite it being specifically allowed for in a recent government bill), don't forget that CDS is likely to not be in place in time for next year, and CHIEF is not being updated to cope with rEU customs… so, the "promise" means that, on "our side" we HAVE to have a transitional arrangement in place for next year… "we" have put ourselves over a barrel as regards keeping goods moving.
(Sorry about the jargon… have a quick search fellow IT types.)
That's my hill farming clients f****d then.
If there should be no trade deal within the 2 years up to 2019, without transition arrangements the ‘default’ exit position would 12
<span style="font-size: medium;">
</span><span style="font-size: medium;">certainly include tariffs on all main agricultural commodities. The scale of tariffs under a negotiated deal could be anything from 5% to perhaps 40% while under default conditions they would be around the higher end of this scale: a 12.8% tariff plus a variable amount per tonne depending on the cut, which can amount to as much as 50% ad-valorem equivalent (AHDB, 2016). </span>
We have a very good idea
the problem is that it cannot be achieved without compromise.
All that is unclear is where the boundaries of the compromises will lie. But by being so obviously divided we simple make the likelihood of them lying on the harder side more not less likely. One reason why I dislike the rabid version of remaining - it’s merely making a bad situation worse instead of better.
Divided? By "we", do you mean our government? Or "the people?"
The solution for this is for the government to decide, and state, what it would like to replace EU membership with, and then ask "the people" to support it.
The EU may well say no, or seek to heavily modify what we get (of course they would) but at least the government would have the strength of clarity and the support of "the people". Of course, if that support doesn't manifest itself, we remain, or an alternative plan must be arrived at. Why go to the EU with no clear aim, or an aim that doesn't have strong support back in the UK?
As a rabid remainer, I like the idea of JRM as PM - it would kill Brexit once and for all.
Joking aside though, given May’s redline in equal treatment for GB and NI, and her no customs union statement, has she just reneged on her much lauded move to stage 2 deal?
I think yes, but it might need some forensic examination of her position, statements and deals to know for sure.
They have
They did
Hence we are in a messy negotiation
You still seem to be forgetting that the decision on ending membership has been taken
Why IGM is uncle Vince going to stage some remarkable recovery?
when the Tories go, we get Brexshit #2 the one that puts jobs first
'Tell me how a question – should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU? – could be considered anything other than very simple. '
I don't know, perhaps we could ask someone who used it as a protest vote against 'politicians'?
Why IGM is uncle Vince going to stage some remarkable recovery?
Doubt it. Why the question?
when the Tories go, we get Brexshit #2 the one that puts jobs first
Putting jobs first is surely infinitely preferable to putting rabid right-wing ideology first, just in front of some misty-eyed old bollocks about a return to empire?
TMH seems to me post JRM/Borid/Fox intervention Hammond was put firmly in his place by May with No10 confirming that we would 100% be leaving the customs union.
In other news Barnier trying to turn a vice into a virtue, yup they’ll be some increased barrier to UK/EU trade overall. For us that’s a very small price to pay for broader free trade greements and being able to buy things more cheaply elsewhere. For EU thats less business with their rich neighbour. Also laughable he is again unabke to understand what the UK’s position is, crystal clear namely l; a bespoke trade deal including financial services with no budget payments or the alternative of no deal and no money
Luckily for us losing 26 is a small price whereas them losing one is bad ehFor us that’s a very small price to pay for broader free trade greements and being able to buy things more cheaply elsewhere. For EU thats less business with their rich neighbour.
Also laughable he is again unabke to understand what the UK’s position is, crystal clear namely l; a bespoke trade deal including financial services with no budget payments or the alternative of no deal and no money
so give us access for free as either way we are not paying. Gosh the EU must be very tempted by that offer. Jamby lend me your car and bike for nothing or its no deal and no payment - tempted? PS you need me more than I need you obvs
`the time wasting troll'
It's ok cos we have loads of time to spare, it's not like there's a ticking clock or anything...
this ****ing quoting bollocks is pissing me off. it's like this forum was half-built by a work experience student who buggered off without finishing the job.
Bit like the brexit "strategy" then
Don’t worry captain - quite a lot of folk have been busy preparing for what comes next !
Yeah... Boris bought some water cannons
THM is talking about his area, he, to be polite, knows nothing about exporting or importing goods, or the preparations required, or the time required to complete them.
How do you know?
Thats a very bold statement
Assuming that you know a lot about import-export are you suggesting that people in this area are not busy preparing? That would be very odd
What do you expect mol?
Not sure what I expected, but I'd have hoped for a long series of debates, discussions and public engagement on how our country should be going forward.
What we actually got was a small number of dubiously qualified people making it up in private. The fates of 65m people are at stake here. This isn't just some party policy.
Well we had a referendum and a vote in parliament - what do you want. For our representatives to take soundings at each and every step of the negotiation process. Could this be a new role for Tony Bliar - he new a thing about focus groups etc?
what do you want
I said what I want. Public debate and engagement. Not too much to ask of a democracy is it?
How about a cross party brexit department with executive power?
If I were PM I'd create one and defer to it on everything. This is beyond party politics.
Assuming that you know a lot about import-export are you suggesting that people in this area are not busy preparing? That would be very odd
I've got a mate who works in a major government dept who will be enormously effected by Brexit
In true government fashion they've got a lot of highly paid consultants in, and taken on lots of staff to cope with the massively increased workload. All existing staff have been told there is basically nothing else on the agenda other than working on Brexit-related nonsense like duplicating EU systems
Theres only one slight problem....
As Mr Barnier has pointed out, and as even the most casual observer can see.... nobody has got a *ing clue what it is the government actually want, where it wants to go, or even the vaguest idea about what exactly it is they're meant to be working towards. The whole thing is just rudderless and drifting, and about to ground itself on a beach.
And the clock ticks on with still no leadership or direction from this shambolic government
Private companies trying to prepare will be facing exactly the same problem... WTF is it that this bunch of idiots actually want? Where is the final destination?
Nobody has got the remotest clue. Least of all anyone in the cabinet.
My mate is getting the * out of dodge, as he doesn't want anything to do with the impending car crash, and is completely convinced, having seen it first-hand, that the economic fallout from this is going to absolutely catastrophic
are you suggesting that people in this area are not busy preparing?
No one has suggested any such thing, of course.
Now… when does CDS need to be in place by? When is it currently predicted to be in use? How firm is the end date for it completely replacing CHIEF? What happens to supply chains if we Leave the SM&CU before it is in place? Is it just additional cost? Or additional delays? Or a complete stop in trade for some goods?
Everyone needs to plan, and make changes, but they don't know what they are planning for, or when for. And, unlike FS, the mitigation required isn't just about having the option to move some key staff to another jurisdiction.
So are we deprived of public debate??
Has the great British public had a direct say?
Have they been given an opportunity to vote in a GE where all parties made their positions on brexit clear - at least in terms of the quaintly old fashioned notion of respecting the result of a referendum?
Have our representatives had the opportunity to vote on A50?
Thats q a lot delivered in the name of democracy - blimey even those you previously argued (I think) we’re ill equipped to participate, had s vote
versus we had all of the above but it’s still not fair and we are going to reject it all - and you dare to use the word democracy in the same breath 😳
Clear?!? There's that word again… in an age of constructive ambiguity.
Well kelvin let’s see. I said that quite a lot of people were busy preparing to which you replied that I knew nothing about import-export. Ergo, you must be suggesting the opposite of me. Which is very odd. Very odd indeed especially since your subsequent post seems to indicate that quite a lot of prep is required. More than fin services apparently.
Lets hope they are not doing what you say, otherwise they will be up the proverbial gum tree
Ok kelvin - you tell me what the Tory and Labour positions were ahead of the last GE?
which parties said they would respect the vote - if any?
which parties said they would not - if any?
how did each one do?
Is there a point to this ramble?
It's not all rosy in the EU poor Merckel (Merkel?) is having to do a May and get her team in.
Does anyone here think the EU is going to last ? Should we wait till it comes crashing down and then adjust to the inevitable .
I know nothing about flying a space shuttle. I also know that you know nothing about it either, THM. I'd like to bet I know more about import/export than you having done it with both EU countries and the US. British companies really don't want the same hassle as dealing with the US of A with 27 more countries but that's where you're heading without membership of the customs union. For each EU state it'll just be one more none EU state to deal with, for British companies it'll be as many lots of paperwork and declarations as the number of EU states they deal with for as many transactions they make. Still poisoning the thread I see, calling people remoaners and being unpleasant with anyone who disagrees with you.
So no answer. Does that mean I can adopt your phrase - are you being (what is it?) a time wasting troll?
the questions really were v easy unless there is something to hide?
Have they been given an opportunity to vote in a GE where all parties made their positions on brexit clear
No.
I still don't know what the Tories' position is, even after they won. Or Labour for that matter.
You are arguing that everything is decided and sorted, even though you KNOW it isn't. I really don't understand your position at all THM. You unequivocally state that which is obvious and don't mention that which we need to know.
I'm sure you've heard of the story of two balloonists lost in fog. They descend to just above an office car park and shout down to a chap leaving the building,
"Where are we?"
The chap responds "You're in a balloon!" The one balloonist then says to his colleague,
"Ah, I know where we are now, just land here we're near home".
"But how do you know?"
"That guy gave an an answer that was factually correct but gave us no useful information at all. I therefore conclude he's THM from Singletrack, and I know he works in the City so that's where we are. I know how to get home from here."
What people are saying Hurty is that trying to ‘plan for the future’ in the present political environment, with cabinet ministers making up freelance policy on the hoof, and providing endlessly contradictory statements by the day, is like getting the map out to plan a route, but some people don’t know where they want to go, and the others are randomly shouting different destinations at opposite ends of the country
its a total ****ing shambles
No Ed but thanks for returning with your false accusations.
I could quote both manifestos mol but fear that would be a waste of time. You seem to prefer a state of denial. I have not argued what you claim either. On the contrary I have stated there both sides have laid out contradictory positions from which they will both compromise and the we don’t know where the point of compromise will be.
Binns. Then they shouldn’t be running businesses. We know the worse case scenario. We know the best scenario. And we know that the tesult will be somewhere in between. So hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
Is “Borid” an amalgamation of Boris and Horrid, Jamba?
Strangely apt
Aaaah.... I hadn’t realised it was so simple.
you did forget the other option....
**** off to somewhere less backward with a government that knows it’s arse from its elbow
i’m sure those particular wheels are well in motion
Leading Tory Brexiteer Peter Bone is in channel 4 news right now, proving that along with a number of his colleagues, he hasn’t got the first clue how business (or reality) actually functions
they’re living on Planet Penis
Which gov would that be?
It takes some impressive chutzpah for THM to pretend that he thinks we had a GE in which the major parties made their position clear, when a year on there is open warfare within the Tory cabinet and the Labour Party is entirely MIA.
The only thing that’s crystal clear is that none of them has a ****ing clue and they haven’t progressed beyond the headless chicken act.
Does anyone here think the EU is going to last ?
PhilXX1975 - Actually yes. They have that peculiarly British trait of mixing gun boat diplomacy (figuratively of course) and muddling through in just the right measure to survive for a very long time.
They actually kind of remind me of us when we had an empire - not certain that’s a good thing but definitely better to be inside doing that outside being done to.
Ok captain - are you suggesting that the Tories and Labour were not clear that Brexit vote - the democratic one - was not going to be respected?
Perhaps you are also suggesting that when old Jezza was ruling out a second referendum that he was only pulling our plonkers and shouldn’t be believed ?
that really is impressive chutzpah
Labour certainly not clear. Ruled out a second referendum but not remaining in (members of 😉) the EU.
Very careful language.
So hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
You mean, reorganise supply chains, production and distribution to [b]prepare[/b] for UK&rEU trade to come to a standstill on April Fools Day next year, because the UK gov IT systems and infrastructure aren't ready for a no deal… but our government lands us with one (a scenario that doesn't even need a vote in parliament now)… and then [b]hope[/b] that is all wasted disruption and investment, because it is close to business as usual come the end of the A50 period (at least for a year or so)? Some companies are indeed making moves that like… but for others… if "the best" scenario occurs, and they thrown all their money and resources on "the worst", then it's game over.
Of course, for some, the no deal scenario next April IS the best outcome. Some of those people have huge sway over what might happen. So should companies plan, invest, spend, and prepare for that outcome?
Jezza has a policy on Brexit?
THM last time I asked you this you said that the Tories were looking for 'the best possible deal'. That says absolutely bloody nothing. I think it is you who are in denial about the issues. See Binners' story for information. You seem to think it's all going well. Maybe, but no-one actually knows where it's going, or what those in charge even want. Is it right that these things are decided in the dark?
welcome to Brexit britain .
No I don’t. Just that it is going better than “people who want to remain and also complain a lot while making things up” mistakenly complain
ditto the economy ...
Ask the Eu mol. They are running the agenda
Speaking as a diabetic and horrible person, he didn't die because of a £150 fine or DPD, he died because he didn't handle his chronic medical condition, for a very long time. It is very sad, and it happens quite a lot because one day of bad control doesn't feel like a big deal but years of bad control kills you horribly. But even I draw the line at making the obvious take back control joke though.
This doesn't make PM Theresa May or Brexit any less terrible an idea though.
Ask the Eu mol. They are running the agenda
It's not for the EU to set UK government policy THM… have you been sharing glasses with the real Brexit fans? Who triggered A50 before correctly preparing, or forming a plan for what we want to replace EU membership with?
he died because he didn’t handle his chronic medical condition
Hold up! Agree that this is the wrong thread, as this has nothing to do with Brexit… but he didn't handle his condition partly because he couldn't afford to attend his clinics, and that was because sick and medical leave is a thing of the past for him and many like him. That absolutely is an issue for his "employers", and government regulation.
No it’s isnt. That’s why I didnt say it was. You might want to have a think about this making stuff up problem. It does waste so much time
No I haven’t
The same people who knew that the very lengthy - if you are to be believed - process cannot start before A50 was triggered. Still the bloody Tories were behind old Jezza who wanted to trigger it straight away
You can prepare for a negotiation before you put yourself in the situation where a successful negotiation is essential. Discussions WITH THE EU couldn't begin before the A50 period, but the current discussions INSIDE THE UK could have occurred before we started the clock ticking.
And don't pretend the government has finished its internal discussion, and "made it clear" to everyone what they are seeking, and are broadly supported by "the people"… we're all in the dark… and the country doesn't even look ready to enter the A50 period… never mind exit it…
THM, you seem to think "respect the vote" is a complete, coherent and credible plan. I have a clue for you. It isn't.
Anyone want a link to the killfile? Why you guys continue to engage with THM is beyond me. His " I'm clever than you " shtick is looking more and ridiculous as it becomes even more obvious he doesn't have a clue -even about financial services where he pretends he works
There is still not even a decision from May and co of what they want as an endpoint - just meaningless platitudes and wishful thinking saying they will have outcomes that clearly are impossible. The way they are going now I think in march when the EU have to ratify the withdrawal agreement the EU will refuse to ratify it as the NI border is still not solved and indeed remains insoluble.
Hasn't that been pushed to October now TJ?
Of course, six months might be enough for EU politicians to get ready for April Fools Day, but everyone else needs to know something far sooner.
I love Merkel mocking may.
Merkel - tell me what you want
May - make me an offer
Merkel - tell me what you want etc etc
When none of the buffoons in the tory party can yet actually formulate a policy that is agreed between them how can they have a negotiation?
The tories are bluffing Europe with an off suit 7 & 3, and Europe knows it.