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The Brexiteers of Flintshire must be delighted.
As all this thread (and I) have recently focused on has been the economic argument for (against) Brexit, this letter to a local paper was a chilling reminder of the utterly nonsensical reasons some (many, maybe most?) people voted Leave:
(I've had to transcribe this)
"I am 70 and so I was born after the war. I do, however, vaguely remember rationing, and I've seen the '50's through film, and lived as a teenager through the '60's. And I know people were happier, and men like my dad whistled while they worked!
Life was simple, and we appreciated more, or am I just looking back through rose-tinted spectacles tat we can't, for love or money, get anymore?
I voted to leave the EU and would do again. For those who moan, and think only in pounds and pence, I have some advice.
Go and see the film, Darkest Hour, followed by Dunkirk, and when you see how torturous a decision it was for Churchill to fight the likes of Hitler, rather than surrender, and how many young men, and common people were killed, in order to keep this Britain great, and ruled by a sovereign, and not a dictator, and be governed by our own parliament, you should realise Brexit is the only way to thank them for their sacrifices."
I had the misfortune to see some Sky BS/News yesterday where they had some reaction to the survey that Germany/germans feel the UK is still to obsessed with WWII and beating Germany, a great reasoned response saying how not many in Germany cares these days and how moving along and not being stuck in the past is what has helped the continent to get somewhere not feeling like you have to fight/battle for tiny little pointless victories.
The Old Brit went on to say how the UK was forced to fight for everything and that the Dunkirk/Waterloo/D-Day etc was what made us and we need to carry on.... pathetic really
perditus
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<p style="margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent; line-height: 1.2em;">The Brexiteers of Flintshire must be delighted.</p>
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Interesting reading.
Brexit really does just keep on giving doesn't it ?:-(
blog/2015/jun/09/waterloo-a-german-victory
Ah well.
Imagine I was able to edit my post and put a link about how there were more German speaking people than English on our side at Waterloo.
And so the report on the economic impacts of brexit cannot be shared with the proles, only MPs, in secret.
One can only speculate that the news is too bad to be shared with the great unwashed, lest they go forming opinions of thier own.
Whatever happens, we must not be allowed to interfere now. :/
"<span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #444444;">Go and see the film, Darkest Hour, followed by Dunkirk, and when you see how torturous a decision it was for Churchill to fight the likes of Hitler, rather than surrender, and how many young men, and common people were killed, in order to keep this Britain great, and ruled by a sovereign, and not a dictator, and be governed by our own parliament, you should realise Brexit is the only way to thank them for their sacrifices."</span>
and there was me thinking it was about supporting our allies in Europe.
Great post PJM.
The lat point you make, so true.
A lot of relatively poor people thinking immigration is why they have been left behind... Though it's easy to label a lot of Leavers as a bit dumb in reality I am angry that they were lied to so many times for so many years. If enough people blame the EU people will begin to believe it.
Yet when things go wrong they will be the FIRST to feel the economic pain. 🙁
I have NO time for the likes of Mogg/ Farage/BJ..etc when they have an almost religious Jihad going on where they would get us out of the EU at any cost. Any cost.
Hateful humans.
The tory scumbags need to realise that whatever power grab they do they will be handing on to Labour.
I am frigging praying for an early election Zippy...
Lets have a chat about Churchill, the other less mentioned side.
Black and Tans, Concentration Camps, Bengal Famine.
So easy to forget the parts of his character that don't fit the narrative.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42896996
And today the glorious leader decides to appease the nut jobs on the right of her party at the expense of the rest of us
Yeah, saw that earlier.
The EU have already started it's a total no go.
This could be the end of her. At last.
EU will just listen to her "fight" say no way. UK caves. As usual.
Tory brexiters go mental and kick her out.
As much as I despise her I'm not sure if I want her to go... Yet.
She is the ultimate ironic ally of Remainers in many ways due to how utterly incompetent she is. 😀
She is the ultimate ironic ally of Remainers in many ways due to how utterly incompetent she is. 😀
Not very ironic. She is a remainer.
^^
I know, but she can't actually be one openly! She has to "bring back control" of... Whatever.
If she is being so incompetent as an act to sabotage Brexit then it's truly Academy award material. 😀
Not very ironic. She is a remainer.
You know it's actually hard to tell what she is, perhaps she needs another reboot
kind of a bit like this
More
I guess the real question is if anyone else in the tory party has the guts to try to lead through this bit of a mess? There was a whole lot of ducking around the time of the last leadership battle.
A lot of relatively poor people thinking immigration is why they have been left behind
its true they blame immigrants for all their problems
TBH its a great trick the right wing low regulation tories have played to make sure foreigners get the blame for rapacious right wing politics rather than the authors of it, the very same authors these poor folk just gave more power to
the notion gove, boris or farage give a shot about the working class plight is as spurious as saying i GAS about the aristocracy
Locally I do know companies that only employ immigrants [ mainly because the employers flout employment law and immigrants tolerate it - reduced red tape essentially] What I never understand is why no one blames the employer for this.
Brexit wont make the working class at the heart of this union...look who is leading the charge into it.
If she is being so incompetent as an act to sabotage Brexit then it’s truly Academy award material.
Given her previous, I'm not convinced the imcompetence is an act.
i am not convinced she is competent enough pretend to be incompetent
Lol 😀
Lets have a chat about Churchill, the other less mentioned side.
Black and Tans, Concentration Camps, Bengal Famine.
So easy to forget the parts of his character that don’t fit the narrative.
And his decision as chancellor to take us back into the gold standard was catastrophic, precipitating an economic crisis, the general strike and defeat in the next general election.
Mays obviously incompetent, it's just that the rest of the Tories including the Brexiters are too terrified of embracing the Brexit shitshow to become PM.
Judging by Baker & Mogg repeatedly lying in parliament about civil servants being the enemies of Brexit, they are getting very desperate in their quest to shift the blame onto anyone but themselves.
Also of note every scumbag on Twitter declaring Finsbury park terrorist & murder Darren Osborne a hero seems to be a Brexit fan..... Smashing that stereotype
If it wasn't for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.
If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.
Churchill was rather enthusiastic about death camps, IIRC.
Extraditions to the UK under EAWs now being delayed over Brexit
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2018/0201/937559-extradition/
The Supreme Court has suggested that the Court of Justice should be asked if, in the context of Brexit, a requested state is required to decline to surrender a person to the UK under a European Arrest Warrant, whose surrender would otherwise be permitted, in all cases, in no cases or having regard to the particular circumstances of the case.
It also wants to ask the Court of Justice what criteria should a court assess to determine whether surrender is required, and whether or not the court in the requested state can postpone finalisation of a request to await greater clarity about what is to happen after the UK leaves the EU.
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If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.
Hmmm. Churchill had his pluses and minuses but that statement was rather foolish on several levels.
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Can I just say I didn’t call 5th Elephant a div. that was the forum.
If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.
Wow. He really was a one man army...if we ignore the American and the Russians and the etc, etc,
Actually it would have been good if he was a one man army, then his military decisions such as Gallipoli, and Narvik, and of course Europe's soft under belly Italy, wouldn't have cost so many lives due to his ineptitude.
Great orator, sh*t at everything else.
Perhaps May is trying to follow in his footsteps when it comes to Europe, only with the added disadvantage of being crap at speeches.
When we had the Indy ref there were folk he argued vehemently that taking control of ones destiny was more important that trifling economic matters. To worry about that was to be narrow minded in the extreme
and now the micro, micro details of economics become vital to their very being. Even 0,1 adjustments to gdp become vital sources of vitriol instead of being considered the insignificant background noise that they are
funny old world. Next thing we’ll know, Brexshit will become solely a Tory idea !!!
How many scots voted for independence?
What is that as a % of the UK population?
Or is this another awkward truth about the monumental **** up - sorry bespoke **** up that is coming.
Oh are we going to have how many Scots actually voted for each? That will be fun!!
why do people think that leavers voted on economic grounds?
is life only about economics - will the economy in many years time be a little bit bigger than now or not??? Hold the bus.....
the thing with May is I believe she knows what she is demanding over eu immigrants is simply not possible - but she is so weak politically that she has to appease the nutjobs
What she and they don't seem to have understood is this is reciprocal - so UK citizens in the EU will be similarly disadvantage and also the 4 freedoms are indivisible. If they want free movement of goods, services and capital then they have to accept free movement of people this is an absolute cornerstone of the EU and will not be changed. What she has actually done is make it more likely the leaving agreement which is still not actually agreed will be rejected and also makes a transition period impoissible - so its back to the cliff edge again
I don't think she is that incompetent - certainly compared to Davies. What she is is politically weak and bound by the limitations of this thus has to keep on appeasing the hard right xenophobes in her party 'cos without them she is toast and I believe she thinks a rabid leaver would be installed in her place. So for he attempting to moderate the rabids is her way of stopping them gaining control of the process
For some reason you are obsessed with the Scots Referendum, Give up you won 😉
Why did people vote leave, amazingly there was lots of research
https://www.verdict.co.uk/brexit-racism-why-did-people-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/why-did-people-vote-for-brexit_uk_5847d0dbe4b0bba967c1807c
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_vote_in_favour_of_Brexit
Amazingly we have covered all these many times, I'm surprised you didn't read them.
Financial services is reciprocal too - easy to forget that !!
thank you for proving my point mike
When we had the Indy ref there were folk he argued vehemently that taking control of ones destiny was more important that trifling economic matters. To worry about that was to be narrow minded in the extreme
Not I. (Not that they gave me a vote)
You make an interesting point THM. Folk used to accepting that nations are basically either economic units or methods for picking sports teams (ie the Scots who agreed 300 years ago to be governed from another country in exchange for greater prosperity) weren’t bothered by nationalism over economics. In England nationalism was stronger than self interest.
Don't ask me to explain Wales, but NI’s vote also looks like enlightened self interest.
I simply love the irony of it all IGM.
I didn’t think anything would be more debased than the Indy debate. But then we had Brexshit and Trump etc
The rise of populist bullshit is itself a fascinating subject it’s also a very sad one, given that large numbers of people who are struggling to come to terms with the modern world are sold snake oil be a series of deceitful opportunists - Salmond, Trump, Farrage, Corbyn, Bojo, McD etc
were it not for the suffering that this entails it would be amusing. As it is it’s depressing and intriguing at the same time
of course the major elephant remains seated in the middle of the room - WTF is Europe going to look like in 5-10 years anyway. It’s sure as hell is not going to be what it is now.
Anyway back to Brexshit - no one intrigued by the huge slowdown in Ez GDP yet?!?
That's a short and somwhat one eyed list THM.
How about this bunch of incompetents,snake oil salesmen and fraudsters. Abby Cohen, David Cameron, Mervyn King,, Maurice Greenberg, Alan Greenspan, Gordon Brown, Chuck Prince, Adam Applegarth and letsl not forget good old Fred the shred and Philip Green
Corbyn is a deceitful opportunist, I agree with that.
Did I mention irony somewhere ?
Liam fox on BBC news a few seconds ago..
The Chinese have agreed to sell us 2 billion quids worth of goods.
Errm.. Okay, so...??
How do people so utterly stupid get into such jobs?
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px;">Locally I do know companies that only employ immigrants [ mainly because the employers flout employment law and immigrants tolerate it – reduced red tape essentially] What I never understand is why no one blames the employer for this.</span>
Having witnessed exploitation first hand in the Manchester area and seen where business owners (tax dodgers) house these people, sub standard (I'm being polite) rental accommodation (20 blokes to a room), in shit hole areas. Many get away with it, absentee landlords blame agents and unauthorised sub-letting with little more than a bollocking/hands slapped.
The irony was the exploiters were from immigrant families themselves and predominantly from former British colonial interests. I can only speak for what I have witnessed in Manchester but am aware it is common in the largest British cites.
There was no racial angle i was aware of and I am in the north west but cannot speak for manchester
the companies were not run or owned by immigrants nor were the employees living like that - though it was multiple occupancy - student type accommodation.
yeah more poundland tat
Oh, child... Do you really belive that the only things we import from China are cheap low quality pound shop stock? Will you ever learn?
Don't worry, we can still import lots more from China… even if the idea of a UK customs union agreement with the EU (and other CU countries) wins out in the Conservative Party… they're not all Mogg/BoJo attention seekers… many do understand how business works outside the financial services… who knows what sense might prevail when the decision is finally made as to what "we" are seeking to replace EU membership with…
Meanwhile, whilst the country tears itself apart the The Express does a stunning expose of Corbyn.
He got a lift in a diesel car AND it was parked on double yellow lines. Monster! !
They estimate that this action directly caused the deaths of 10 baby robins.
Also in the above pic I see that May is going to bring in a new law to protect Mogg from having people with a regional accent (affiliated with Labour leader's obvs) from talking too loudly near his delicate ears.
Obviously having a member of the far Right murder a female Labour MP wasn't enough to trigger action...
“Gas-guzzling diesel”, er only if you choose the wrong pump! They need to sort out their outrage, it’s a pollution belching child killer FFS.
<span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #444444; font-size: 12px;">Obviously having a member of the far Right murder a female Labour MP wasn’t enough to trigger action…</span>
Or that the arsehole who carried out the attack in Finsbury Park said that he originally wanted to target Corbyn.
Its good to see they have a clear audience though. Right wing loons who are too cheap to buy the hate.
Be interesting to see what happens if the mirror does it take it over. Will the staff leave or will they just flip their positions or will they be allowed to keep the current line?
Would that not be Corbyn's official car, provided for him by the Government Car Service and driven by a Department of Transport employee?
They one he has to use for security reasons, due to threats on his life?
Have we done dolchstoss yet? 🙋🏼♀️
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/03/brexit-civil-service-1930s-germany
Brilliant isn't it - moggster and his mates know their extravagant promises cannot add up so they decide to shoot the messenger.
Unfortunately it'll probably work.
A bit rubbish that piece … oddly, exactly the same points are made in this far better commentary from the same "outlet"…
Aye Kelvin but ‘my’ piece was written a day earlier.... 😛
it was more the concept (than the article) I was trying to highlight...
It's always telling when a group is setting up other people for the failure, before it happens, isn't it? "I insist we do this stupid thing and when it fails it'll be the fault of Carthage or something"
So Rudd is on the telly saying the cabinet are united then within hours 2 different ministers state totally incompatible versions of what they want. May still will not say what she is aiming for.
Then this morning any sort of customs union is ruled out by no 10
Farcical
May is just resembling that character on The Fast Show where Paul Whitehouse agrees with whatever the previous speaker said.
May is just resembling that character on The Fast Show where Paul Whitehouse agrees with whatever the previous speaker said.
Actually, she's more like Jesse: "This week our brexit policy has mostly been...."
Just noticed a small straw floating past in the wind.
Of course, one solution to the need for a "Northern Irish" border after Brexit causing all the local problems that are such a worry, is for there not to be a "Northern Ireland".
Sinn Fein have always referred to the land mass as being "The Island Of Ireland". Largely, one supposes, as a means of driving home their stance on the matter.
Yesterday on the Andrew Marr show, for the first time at least in my hearing, a non-Sinn Fein politician used the phrase.The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd.
Then this morning any sort of customs union is ruled out by no 10
All the while, parlimentarians are wasting their time scrutinising a government bill which would enable it to set up a new customs union with the EU. I'd rather have them concentrating on whatever it is the PM and her enemies really want instead (no, they haven't "made it clear").
Tick… tock…
even if the idea of a UK customs union agreement with the EU (and other CU countries) wins out in the Conservative Party… they’re not all Mogg/BoJo attention seekers… many do understand how business works outside the financial services…
Which idiot wrote that? Idiot.
So the fantasy island Brexit continues, with policy made up on the hoof to placate whichever faction of the Tory party is shouting loudest this week?
We won’t be part of any customs union, but there also won’t be a border in Ireland? Hmmmmm.... how’s that going to work then?
oh, yeah.... it isn’t. The two things are mutually incompatible.
Have we surely not reached the point where the 2 wings of the Tory party needs to have the open war it’s been threatening for decades, so we can finally stop all this ‘have cake and eat it’ nonsense and address the world as it actually is, and not how the Brexit headbangers would like it to be?
This government seems to like arguing over the colour of the Dulux they are using to paint themselves into a corner.
It’s red by the way. Fades to pink under pressure.
Yesterday on the Andrew Marr show, for the first time at least in my hearing, a non-Sinn Fein politician used the phrase.The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd.
I can’t even begin to imagine what Arlene’s face must have looked like when she heard that!
We won’t be part of any customs union, but there also won’t be a border in Ireland? Hmmmmm…. how’s that going to work then?
oh, yeah…. it isn’t. The two things are mutually incompatible.
Unless we make Northern Ireland part of 'Europe' and put the border between the island of Ireland and the rest of the UK. Ah......
It's like a big game of scissors paper stone, pick any two options and there's some incompatibility. Shame no-one thought of it before going down this idiot path.
Well I suppose as long as Labour keep supporting the tories by voting with them or abstaining, it doesn't really matter what the DUP think.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;">Unless we make Northern Ireland part of ‘Europe’ and put the border between the island of Ireland and the rest of the UK. Ah……</span>
At which point the government falls anyway as it's goodbye DUP.
It's like trying to fit a sofa into a mini. Whichever way you approach it, you will fail.
It’s like trying to fit a sofa into a mini. Whichever way you approach it, you will fail.
You could chop it into tiny pieces with an axe, douse it in petrol and then set fire to it. Collect what remains of the ashes, and that probably would fit.
That's not a bad analogy for what we're doing actually. We may yet end up with our sofa in our mini, but the sofa will be **** all use, and the mini will stink of ash and petrol for years to come. Err.... is that what's meant by win-win?
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px;">Well I suppose as long as Labour keep supporting the tories by voting with them or abstaining,
</span>It all makes you wonder what is the actual point of the labour party at the moment? It certainly wouldn't appear to be to provide an effective opposition. The Tory party is busy tearing itself apart of Europe (as per....), and instead of capitalising on that, Corbyn and chums refuse to even bring up the subject of Brexit.
Lets be honest... it wouldn't be difficult to articulate a more cohesive vision of where Brexit should be going, than the present 'make it up as you go along' shambles that is the government 'position'
The present car crash that May has presided over, summed up by Matthew D'ancona (hardly a rabid lefty) in the Guardian this morning
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/04/brexit-mess-theresa-may-tories
Labour have just sat there and observed the dumpster fire that is this Conservative government for long enough. It's one thing allowing your opponents to destroy themselves, which they are doing just fine, another to allow them to utterly poison the well in the process.
Corbyn's ambiguous stance is both frustrating and understandable in equal measure. While those media sources close to him gleefully report that he's had something of an epiphany in private and secretly back remaining (even though he both voted remain, canvassed as a remainer and subsequently said in a TV interview that he would remain if he got to vote again), he steadfastly sticks to the line that Labour respects the referendum result. Meanwhile, Remainers such as myself count for the majority of Labour's supporters and Corbyn would be mad to throw that support away. Meanwhile, both Keir Starmer and Hillary Benn (both of whom have been quick to respond to my emails on the topic of Brexit) are openly backing a Customs Union and Single Market approach.
But the Labour Party stands to benefit hugely by standing back and allowing the Conservatives to self-immolate. Although some newspapers are reporting the Johnson, Gove and Rhys-Mogg represent a "dream team", there's little support amongst the Tory rank and file for Extreme Brexit. Moreover, Johnson and Gove have been permanently tainted by their conduct during the Referendum campaign itself and will remain divisive figures for some time to come. Gove has quietly got on with the Environment brief and it must be said that he's made some encouraging noises. Johnson is making a hash of his Foreign Secretary brief, he's clearly backed himself into an ideological corner and if you read the foreign news outlets, he's not taken particularly seriously on the world stage. Rhys-Mogg is something of an enigma, his 1950s upper class schtick is just that - it's not authentic and his favoured policies on capital punishment, taxation and civil liberties reek of regressive authoritarianism. Arguably, the throw back appeal is the mirror image of Corbynism and appeals to those who would wish to return to a different age. Rhys-Mogg's accusations that the Treasury have been fiddling figures is a clear statement of intent that he has his eye on Phil Hammond's job.
In the scenario whereby we have Johnson, Gove and Rhys-Mogg leading government, there is likely to be a significant pushback from the Tory moderates - Grieve, Soubry et al. So, in order to get Hard Brexit to stick, an authoritarian stance will have to be adopted, especially so given the lack of a clear majority - withdrawing the party whip from rebels is a non-starter, so they will have to double down on dissent, or deliberately undermine the role of parliament itself.
You get the impression that Johnson and Gove enjoy the smoke-filled rooms, the plotting and the knifing more than they do the responsibilities of actually having to enact policy. You only had to look at Bojo's panicked face when the referendum result came through.
Rees-Mogg would be an excellent Chancellor. In 1877.
"Rees-Mogg would be an excellent Chancellor. In 1877."
For many, their working conditions are rather 1877-esque.
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/05/courier-who-was-fined-for-day-off-to-see-doctor-dies-from-diabetes</span>
It's interesting that May seems intent on hanging on until Brexit has been delivered in whatever form. There are the competing demands of time - the timing of 2017's General Election was no accident in that May wanted to give five years to deliver Brexit, plan for succession and to try to stabilise the economy. There would be two scenarios in 2022, either a new Conservative leader reenergises the party and deals with the inevitable economic rough patch, or Labour win and subsequently take the flak for any economic difficulties along the way.
Update on the Labour Party Position:
I'm just listening to yesterdays Pienaars Politics (thats how rock and roll my life is) and the labour party has just announced an important policy: Transgender people who identify as women will be allowed on to all-women parliamentary shortlists
Nothing on Brexit as yet, but nice to see the important issues of the day being addressed
Remoaners should be happy. The current noise from the empty vessels - R-M, Fox, Bojo etc - is simply indicative that they know that events are moving away from their hard line positions. We continue to move to compromises across the board, which is a good thing
So May the incompetent, the remainer, the weak PM among a split cabinet, etc has moved on to
1. Delivering legislation through parliament
2. By-passing the insurmountable three obstacles in stage one
3. Is moving slowly on to the nitty gritty of trade making it clear that existing solutions don’t work.
4. Starting to get on to passporting versus equivalence in fin services and equivalence elsewhere
Not a bad effort all in all
The current noise from the empty vessels – R-M, Fox, Bojo etc – is simply indicative that they know that events are moving away from their hard line positions
Like definitely not being part of any customs union?
If thats moving away from their positions, what would you class as moving towards their position? Bricking up the channel tunnel? Invading Portugal? Sending a fleet of gunboats to China?
Not a bad effort all in all
An opinion you share with one other person in the UK. That person being Theresa May
"Remoaners should be happy. The current noise from the empty vessels – R-M, Fox, Bojo etc – is simply indicative that they know that events are moving away from their hard line positions. We continue to move to compromises across the board, which is a good thing"
Two things:
"Remoaners" = "Remainers", please. A little respect goes a long way in promoting discussion and debate in a friendly manner.
I think that's a very good point, things are clearly not going in the direction that your hardcore Brexiteers want. However, we've confusion as to whether we're in or out of a Customs Union depending on who is speaking and it's blatantly obvious that we've seen some colossal blunders so far - Article 50 was submitted way too soon, the election was a disaster and it transpires that each member of the cabinet has a different understanding of what Brexit means. It's clear that the Brexiteers are taking an authoritarian line, but the realities of the situation are quickly eroding all the rational cases for an irrational policy decision.
What's left is the irrational and emotional reasons for Brexit - immigration, the notion of "sovereignty", isolationism and the conflicting demands of these against future economic growth.