Forum menu
What a shower of crap this government is. They could appoint the former director of carillion and get better quality.
Mis Sold Brexit
Don't tell the Conservatives, we'll end up with a 2018 swim suit calander featuring theresa may with a carefully placed sash over her nips.
None of us voted for that.
When 99% of the EU side say - "this is what is impossible, this is what is possible" and the Tories say "this is what we want" despite it being rules out categorically which side will prevail?
The side that contains 27 countries and is all completely aligned and rock solid or the side that has an wish list that has been ruled out and that changes from week to week?
One side has solid policy, the other side has a wish list
Problem is, the only thing holding the Tories together is their fantasy brexit. As soon as they have to make a meaningful decision the govt will fall apart.
As aligned and rock solid as the defence at Anfield
What was the question earlier?
Well done Brexiteers...who needs to move forward when we're heading back to the 1950's anyway.
https://euobserver.com/science/140617
Yebbut who needs Galileo, and all the associated industry that comes along with it, when there's that UKIP chap who wants us to be mining asteroids by 2026?
When 99% of the EU side say - "this is what is impossible, this is what is possible" and the Tories say "this is what we want" despite it being rules out categorically which side will prevail?The side that contains 27 countries and is all completely aligned and rock solid or the side that has an wish list that has been ruled out and that changes from week to week?
One side has solid policy, the other side has a wish list
You appear to have forgotten that we went to the EU and said "We were elected on the basis of trying to secure a better deal, so, what can you offer us?... and please bear in mind that we need to put it in front of the people in a referendum"
So the EU made their offer
and the people said, "not good enough, we'd rather leave"
Which is why we are where we are now.
but we should have gone back after the non-binding referendum, and said "ok this is serious shit now...what can you give us?"
[url= http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/01/18/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-brexit-endgame-in-five ]Another very concise explanation of where we are and what happens next[/url]
Assuming your reply has any relevance at all to what you quoted, it's interesting logic to be surprised that we can't get unicorns now we're leaving when they wouldn't give us unicorns when we were still members.
Though how many leave voters do you think voted leave because the EU's offer wasn't good enough? How many would have voted remain if the offer had been better? How many were even aware that there had been any negotiation at all? How many voted leave for completely different* reasons?
* double meaning intended
I'm looking forward to going on the Boris bridge to France.
He could launch a cryptocurrency to fund it. Brexitcoin.
Though how many leave voters do you think voted leave because the EU's offer wasn't good enough? How many would have voted remain if the offer had been better? How many were even aware that there had been any negotiation at all? How many voted leave for completely different* reasons?
I dont know, you tell me.
Ah, my apologies, I assumed you were implying the EU's offer was significant in the outcome of the referendum. Clearly that's not the case.
So the EU made their offer
and the people said, "not good enough, we'd rather leave"
The referendum made no attempt to put "their offer" to the electorate.
So we are steaming ahead with Brexit whilst continuing to play ball in Calais and Boris wants a bridge to improve links to Europe.
Ironing anyone?
was it kelvin who had feed the troll to the tune of band aid going round in his head?
Twodogs suggests EXACTLY what Boris and others proposed would happen if Leave had a narrow win. Hey ho.
And … "bridge!" … "squirrel!"
Boris really is a (highly successful) devious shit, isn't he.
Yeah, but the seemingly juicy steaks I'm putting out are poisoned.
Jamba/ninfan/THM - any views on the relocation of the satellite centre to Spain? Presumably moves like this are a price worth paying? Particularly as they don't affect you directly.
So we are steaming ahead with Brexit whilst continuing to play ball in Calais and Boris wants a bridge to improve links to Europe.
Looks like going to be even less successful than his last bridge.
He seems fascinated with infrastructure programs which just wont work.
Although admittedly it might solve the daily hates issue with Russian warships sailing through the channel if a bridge makes it too dangerous for all the traffic to navigate.
Hey I'd be on for a zipwire across the channel. Maybe he could test it out.
Not really getting the bridge thing,actually find it a bit incredulous that he would say such a ridiculous thing considering what he is part of.
TBH I vaguely remember some images of a bricked up eurotunnel on my Facebook by my esteemed brexiter FB school friends, I don’t think they voted to have more access to France.
Why are you asking me AD?
Though how many leave voters do you think voted leave because the EU's offer wasn't good enough? How many would have voted remain if the offer had been better? How many were even aware that there had been any negotiation at all? How many voted leave for completely different* reasons?
How many remainers abused CMD at the time and are now living to regret it. Ok he oversold it MASSIVELY but that was as good as it gets. And he was largely villified even by those papers who now have to resort to exaggerated scare stories in order to deny a democratically achieved result
Funny old business
CMD?
Worst prime minister of the last hundred years.
Paxman on Room 101 now, describing him perfectly.
Kelvin - May is worse by a long way. At least CMD was not incompetent and could actually control his party.
A PM who cannot reshuffle her ministers?
May is trying to sort out the shit CMD left behind. She's not doing the job well, but it's a job that can't be done well.
@AD we should expect all EU instututions to move. Personally I can’t wait to get rid of the EIB (European Investment Bank). What amuses me with all the EU’s media briefings about moving all these other entites they’ve said nothing about the EIB. It is easily the most significant EU entity in the UK.
Yes I appreciate there may be a personal cost to some staff but the cost and risk to the country of being the EU is just too great IMO.
TJ every Tory PM is worst than the last one right ? If it's not May it will be Boris, Gove or another Brexiteer so be careful what you wish for.
He could launch a cryptocurrency to fund it. Brexitcoin.
🙂 🙂 🙂
From Politico.eu .. maybe there will be a Government in Germany next week
BERLIN — Europe’s politicos are heading into the weekend quietly confident that Germany’s Social Democrats will pave the way to another grand coalition at a special party congress on Sunday.
Never mind that this conventional wisdom is born of the same instinct that led most of us to assume the Brexit referendum would fail and that Donald Trump would lose. [b]Then as now, the alternative would appear to be too scary to contemplate[/b].
Hard to imagine the chaos that could unfold if the Germans go to the polls again in April, would mean no Government till June ? EU negotiations would be paralysed.
Would that make you happy?
As it has been based in Luxembourg since 1968 and was in Brussels before that where are you expecting them to relocate to ?What amuses me with all the EU’s media briefings about moving all these other entites they’ve said nothing about the EIB
Its finance you work in right?
“France would [b]probably[/b] vote to Leave the EU in a Referendum”
President Macron on Andrew Marr this morning
He spoke a lot about democracy but in the same breath said Remain/Leave was too complicated to allow people to vote 😯
Majority of EIB’s staff work at the London office. I know 10-20 of them quite well. Classic EU nonsense goes on there and they pay virtually no income tax either. Politics and banks really don’t mix
but in the same breath said Remain/Leave was too complicated to allow people to vote
Not quite what he said and taken out of context, but he is correct. Look at the mess we are in as a result of "simplification of information". A Referendum should be at the end of these kinds of (informed) debates not done in the absence of information and lashings of hyperbole (as our was) . Although I guess we have demonstrated to the world what happens when you do it wrong so hopefully Brexit won't be a complete disaster if it educates the rest of humanity.
You watched a different interview to me jamba.
CITEMajority of EIB’s staff work at the London office
oh and you moved the goalposts as you were claiming it was based here not they had some staff here. Secondly as you claim we will remain the financial hub why would they move?
Jenkins was pretty spot on yesterday in the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/18/second-brexit-vote-trade-democracy
The fact is that Britain is not going to abandon Brexit this year. It is not going to do so because, two years ago, MPs voted 544 to 53 for a referendum, which they pledged to honour. A year ago they voted 498 to 114 to honour that pledge. Even if some leavers are having buyer’s remorse, a YouGov poll last year showed just 14% wanting Brexit stopped. The only clear popular wish is to get on with it – and shut up.
And that’s just one para. Then theres this (despite the wrong ultimate conclusion) dutch perspective
And finally the latest poll in yesterday’s Torygraph
A majority of Britons believe that the country was right to vote for Brexit for the first time in six months.A new poll by YouGov found that 45 per cent of people think Britons were right to vote to leave the European Union, up three per cent.
The same poll found that 44 per cent of people think the UK is wrong to want to leave, down two per cent
Hardly definitive* [ i dont recall you citing the survey when it did not agree with you ] and some of us believe that within a democracy bad decisions can be opposed and overturned
*
Matthew Goodwin, the polling expert, said it was the first time since July 2007 that “right has been ahead” of wrong in the tracking poll.
TJ every Tory PM is worst than the last one right ? If it's not May it will be Boris, Gove or another Brexiteer
Haha. All Brexiters too terrified of actually being the Brexit PM as they know that they'll have to sell a compromise and none of them dare admit the Brexit they sold the country was a lie.
So they'll hide behind May like the cowards they are until it's over and they can blame May for it being a shitshow
Choose a poll to your liking THM, remembering that alternatives are available.
So what we have seen is that the Brexmaniac Telegraph says people want Brexit, and the Remainer Independent says they don’t, while the Guardian publishes opinion pieces both for and against.
There are and the basic message remains. There hasn’t been a major change of opinion nor has there been a major change of circumstance
So Jenkins is pretty much spot on
Won’t stop the false narratives though .....
nor has there been a major change of circumstance
By this, do you mean, that our government still hasn't decided, never mind told us, what its plan is? What it wants to replace membership with? And "bespoke" or "unique" or "ambiguous" means little more than "Brexit means Brexit". While we are weighing up "Any deal you prefer, possible or not" vs "membership", then there will be little movement. For what it's worth, I'd expect a straight "Leave or remain" poll, or vote, would be won by Leave by slightly more than in 2016, if held today.
nor has there been a major change of circumstance
For once I agree with your analysis of our tory govt
Whilst true I wont like them, by anyones standards, May is amongst the least talented and adept to hold the office - down there with Brown in being a decent human being way out of their depth and the living embodiment of the peter principle - though May was hardly brilliant as home secretaryTJ every Tory PM is worst than the last one right ?
May was hardly brilliant as home secretary
That's probably a contender for understatement of the year.
I prefer 'proven track record of abject failure followed by inexplicable promotion'
in the same breath said Remain/Leave was too complicated to allow people to vote
Isn't it?
Democracy means everyone's an expert? I struggle to understand the justification for this idea.
No I don’t Kelvin
No it isn’t mol. It a pretty straightforward issue. Do you want to be a member of the EU or not. Most people can answer immediately.
Do you do it on purpose?
Yes but only because most of them have a nonsense fantasy idea as to what "not" means.
Quite a lot have a nonsense fantasy about what saying “not” means too.
I agree with you both - let's have a fact-based second referendum.
Read munchau in tomorrow’s FT on website now, then
Given how clear it is now that the leavers lies are lies and that any leave outcome is going to be disastrous I very much doubt a second ref would be for leave. All those ridiculous claims would now gain no traction having been proved wrong.
Hugely disastrous?
Well I never - even the CBI now publicly say its going to be a disaster and want to stay in the customs union and single market
n a speech on Monday, Carolyn Fairbairn, the CBI director general, will also call for Theresa May’s government to show greater urgency in Brexit talks to give clarity to companies that will otherwise need to trigger alternative plans, including moving jobs and investment offshore.She will say that a no-deal scenario would be an act of “great economic self-harm”, by imposing billions of pounds of costs on UK goods sold to the EU and vice versa, and existing trade deals between the EU and Canada and the EU Norway would not be the best solution for Britain.
“Economics and prosperity must be put ahead of politics and red lines,” she will say, according to excerpts of the speech released on Sunday.
Business leaders are privately pushing for a new campaign to reverse Brexit as concerns mount about the viability of government plans to prevent a collapse in exports to Europe.On Monday, the CBI launched its most sustained attack yet on the government’s Brexit strategy by calling for full customs union with the EU and single market participation, even if it means abandoning the pursuit of separate trade deals with the rest of the world.
Neither the Tories nor Labour are advocating a hard brexit. Both agree that we need to negotiate on-going access to the single market and this is also recognised increasingly by our European partners.
The scare stories are unnecessary and unwelcome (albeit quite funny)
Well we will have “access” to the single market regardless so no negotiations necessary. Besides TNUMTWNT.
TJ the CBI have been Remain Central from the very start. As Hannah points out big business loves the EU as thry can afford all the regulatory compliance and dreedom of movement teduces rheur labour costs and lets them move production wherever they want. The costs of membership are paid by taxpayers and they can easily nominally shift business around playing off one EU country against another minimising tax they pay
Sorry Jamba but the CBI is not just big business anything but, they have a huge level of support from their membership to fight it's corner.
Its also a huge change in their position. Thats one of the main groups supporting may and bankrolling the tories turning agaisnt them.
I gave the reasons big buisness like the EU, 90% of our economic activity is domestic and we have a big trade imbalance with the EU anyway. Paying to be a member doesn’t make any sense never mind the sovereignty arguments. Japan, Cananda, South Korea etc etc don’t pay to have a trade deal or accept ECJ / freedom of movement etc.
TJ no it’s not a change AT ALL. They have been Remain Central from the beginning. My old boss is one of the Tories largest donors and he is very much pro Leave (and pro Boros fwiw). Personally I think a Remain biased Tory Party would struggle to raise any significant money.
You really believe that? Its a very significant change from a position of fence sitting to a strong condemnation of leaving from what I have seen.
Yes it’s true Japan doesn’t benefit from freedom of movement with the EU. Instead it’s an insular failing country heading into a demographic death spiral. Perhaps not the best example for a brexiteer to use.
Why would the CBI be (1) pro-brexit and (2) anti a FTA that ensures (preferential) access to the single market ?
That would be most odd
Pretty odd for the Tories to be pro-brexit too. We live in interesting times.
A reminder that the best possible FTA is NOTHING LIKE OPERATING IN A SINGLE MARKET AND CUSTOMS UNION, whatever people may be implying. Hence CBI is very much at odds with our current political [s]opportunists[/s] leaders.
You don’t need to remind me. I voted to remain.
But IT WILL be much better than the doomsday merchants keep predicting
This "doomsday merchants" stuff is rubbish… just like people pointing out that the EU serves a role in keeping peace in Europe was turned into "threats of world war three" by Boris, and "stop denying the role of NATO" by others… the attempts to point out the loss of favourable trade arrangements and established methods for cross border is turned into "of course we'll still trade with Europe" and "no one is talking about cutting ourselves off completely" and "we won't become a third world country" nonsense… no one serious said any such thing would happen… Leaving is highly damaging to the UK… but of course we can get through it. I could get on with my life if you amputated a few of my toes… but don't expect acceptance, never mind thanks… and don't turn around and say… "see, no where near as bad as having both legs chopped off, is it".
This "doomsday merchants" stuff is rubbish…
True. Rubbish but fun to read
Brexit has already had badly damaging consequences and we haven't even left yet. the loss of jobs already is huge, the loss of highly skilled and trained staff in the NHS is significant damage and its only going to get worse. Growth down, ineward investent cancelled, highly profitable financial trading lost and much more to come.
But of course for those who love th etories they can ignore this and those who hate furriners its a price worth payiung
But anyone who denies this is happening and is only the beggining is deluding themselves and is blind to the data
thecaptain - MemberPretty odd for the Tories to be pro-brexit too. We live in interesting times.
the vast majority of tory mps are remainers. Its their membership tiny tho it is that are leavers
Most of the doomsday stuff was made up or misinterpreted (deliberately?) by Brexies.
Well you kindly gave us data that showed quite the opposite with the NHS.
Plus official jobs data tells a different story as does upward revision of growth, strong performance of Uk manufacturing, French banks investing IN the U.K.etc
No trading lost either.
Why do you keep ....never mind, we know the answer
The FTs version on the huge loss of jobs
The UK’s historic low unemployment rate has been one of the major economic success stories of the past year. Initially led by part-timers and the self-employed, the growth in employment has broadened to include full time employees.
Who needs facts when the alternatives are so amusing?
Most of the doomsday stuff was made up or misinterpreted (deliberately?) by Brexies.
Well, my poorly written rant was supposed to make that point… I clearly failed.
Rubbish but fun to read
Often very difficulty to read.
No trading lost either.
Overall trading is up, but held back by the ongoing Brexit mess… trade has been missed out on for sure… would you call that "trading llost"? Would you call rEU companies changing supply chains to cut out UK links as "trading lost'? I think I would.
Amazing that uk manufacturing is doing so well then isn’t it?
Glad they are getting on with it too.
And who would want to invest in UK?
Chinese foreign direct investment into the United Kingdom more than doubled in one year – from $9.2 billion in 2016 to $20.8 billion in 2017 – despite uncertainty surrounding Britain's pending exit from the European Union.
With the export benefits of a devalued currency whilst retaining full membership of SM & CU, you'd have to hope that manufacturing would be doing well.
Post Brexit? Who knows.
No trading lost either.
~Sheer nonsense the facts say otherwise.
the vast majority of tory mps are remainers. Its their membership tiny tho it is that are leavers
The obvious thing to do would be to join the Tory party and reconfigure it. 😈