[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

I thought it was hilarious. You were writing it for comic effect weren't you?

Which bit was hilarious - is vassal state rhyming slang or something?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-42574540/viewsnight-the-brexit-generation-is-dying-out ]Brexit voters dying at a faster rate than Remain voters[/url]

Interesting point - in just 2 years time - 2020, the Brexit majority will no longer exist...

That being the case there's simply no justification for carrying on with it - or at least not in a democracy where the will of the majority stands. The only argument for carrying on is an autocratic/dictatorial one.

It was always an important point - that the older generation were forcing on a younger generation something they didn't want but I'd not realised the electoral/demographic calculations meant the majority would disappear in such short timescales.

It's now very clear why May went for A50 so quickly and the Brexit camp are so panicked when they're challenged...

Might as well call the whole thing off - demographics are destiny after all.

brooess - Member

Interesting point - in just 2 years time - 2020, the Brexit majority will no longer exist...

Yep, but everyone else will have aged 2 years so a load of people will have turned 65 and instantly turned into brexiteers and tory voters

why May went for A50 so quickly

You don't need a degree in maths to work out the decay/death of the Tory Party and Brexit as a majority. As the Tory grandee Micheal Heseltine has pointed out the party is dying out at 2% per annum therefore 5 years from Mrs Mays election = 10% natural wastage - THM Jamba etc it's just a matter of time.......

And time is always on the side of youth....

I will support that younger generations fight to regain their rights from the *ed up right wing s heads you voted for 1950.

I would fight for everyone’s democratic rights (to be respected) and the right not to be lied to (pre and post referendum by either side)

And imagine young people having to te-experience the nightmare of 70s - still everyone has to learn from their mistakes

Flares? TRex? Edward Heath?

I would fight for everyone’s democratic rights (to be respected) and the right not to be lied to (pre and post referendum by either side)

And imagine young people having to te-experience the nightmare of 70s - still everyone has to learn from their mistakes

So you'd agree to a second referendum then, given that the populace are now a little more aware of the consequences?

So you'd agree to a second referendum then, given that the populace are a little more aware of the consequences?

Happy to agree to it - on the basis that it is put forward in an electoral manifesto and a government is voted into power to deliver it as an election pledge, just like last time.

Aware of the consequences??? Have you read this thread 😯

I sad the populace, not you specifically, calm down hun x

teamhurtmore - Member
I would fight for everyone’s democratic rights (to be respected)

This just spells out what a ridiculous referendum it was and situation this is. If the referendum had been for "Any Brexit at any cost", then yes people could complain about democracy.

Given that people could only have voted for their own interpretation of Brexit and a significant proportion of those are not going to get what they thought they were voting for.....how can you complain about democracy being threatened because some people want to stop Brexit yet you don't give a stuff if your interpretation of Brexit isn't being delivered or if that non-delivery would change your opinion?

Given that people could only have voted for their own interpretation of Brexit

Really?!? How odd....

teamhurtmore - Member

Given that people could only have voted for their own interpretation of Brexit

Really?!? How odd....

Thanks for that....very informative.

Pleasure - keeping in the spirit

[quote=kelvin ]I have "Feed… the… troll…" to the tune of the Band Aid single playing in my head for some reason…

Happy to agree to it

given that the populace are now a little more aware of the consequences?

If the populace are more aware (I don't think they actually are) then the polls would suggest that they don't care about the consequences or are happy with them for the return they are getting. Is that what you think?

We’ve had Strictly, Jungle and whatever the singing one is called to vote on.

1,192 pages on this, and it’s still as silly as ever.

Very early on it was predicted that Brexit would be watered down so much it wouldn’t really be Brexit.

The Remainers on here still have their totally delusional ideation that they are somehow intellectually superior than anybody with a different opinion - and the Brexiteers appear unaware the Brexit they voted for simply isn’t going to happen.

Democracy is dead. We don’t get to decide on the real important issues.

I’m certainly intellectually superior to most of the leavers I know and more importantly still alive.

polls would suggest that they don't care about the consequences or are happy with them for the return they are getting. Is that what you think?

I think there is still a significant portion of people who don't care about the consequences, or simply still don't understand, however, I think enough people have now actually woken up and smelled the coffee now.

They didn't vote for failing industry, failing health and social care systems, rising poverty and crime, lack of police resources and diminished opportunities for their children.

They didn't vote for failing industry, failing health and social care systems and diminished opportunities for their children.

Havent they already witnessed this inside the EU?

mooman, it's easy for the brexiters to get the brexit they want. They just have to explain in detail whats going to happen and how. Like the Irish border for example. Saying "let's leave" and then bleating about how it isn't working our right is like saying "let's have a unicorn" without working out how to create one.

[quote=ninfan ]Havent they already witnessed this inside the EU?

Sure, because UK Tory governments are quite capable of providing that despite the EU

zippykona - Member
I’m certainly intellectually superior to most of the leavers I know and more importantly still alive.

Ummm ... so you regard yourself intellectually superior to those ones who are alive - or those dead?

mattyfez - Member

They didn't vote for failing industry, failing health and social care systems, rising poverty and crime, lack of police resources and diminished opportunities for their children.

They certainly didn`t. Those things have been failing/rising/diminishing significantly for the last couple of decades.

thecaptain - Member
mooman, it's easy for the brexiters to get the brexit they want. They just have to explain in detail whats going to happen and how. Like the Irish border for example. Saying "let's leave" and then bleating about how it isn't working our right is like saying "let's have a unicorn" without working out how to create one.

On the flip-side ... the Remainers recognised there was need to reform the EU ... they too had no plan on how to do it, so lack of plans are something both camps have in common.
And the Remainers Unicorn slur is similar to the Magic-money tree they spoke of too ... the Magic-money tree that appeared to pay for the Pro-Remainer to stay in power.

Democracy is dead.

True. There has been a referendum and Parliamentary votes and moaners reject the result of both. Undemocracy is thriving

They didn't vote for failing industry, failing health and social care systems, rising poverty and crime, lack of police resources and diminished opportunities for their children

Of which one, leaving aside the false ones, might be related to the decision to end membership of the EU. Still exaggeration is key....

THM still struggling with the concept of democracy. See if you can spot where the referendum fell down - for a clue see 2 and 3 below.

Five Critieria for A Democratic Process ( R Dahl)

process of making binding decisions

Demos | kratia
people | rule by

1) Inclusion
“The Demos” = “all adult members except transients and persons proved to be mentally defective.”

2) Control of the Agenda
“The demos must have the exclusive opportunity to decide how matters are to be placed on the agenda for discussion and voting.”

3) Enlightened Understanding
-“citizens ought to have adequate and equal opportunities for discovering and validating the choice on the matter to be decided that would best serve the citizen's interests.”

4) Effective Participation
-“citizens ought to have an adequate and equal opportunity, for expressing their preferences as to the final outcome.”

5) Voting Equality at the Decisive Stage
“At the decisive stage, each citizen must be able to express a choice that will be counted as equal in weight to the choice expressed by any other citizen.”

Nope

Five Critieria for A Democratic Process ( R Dahl)

Not as good as James and the Giant Peach.

May called A50 9 months later than Corbyn wanted to

With MEP elections in May 2019 it made total sense to be out by then, hence Mach-ish 2017 is the obvious timing

Whatever the timing A50 vote in Parliament was a landslide

Tony Blair the UK’s least popular and successful poltican ? Lead Remainiac who got the appropriate treatment on R4 Today Programme

Mismanaged economy creating largest ever bust in living memory via spectator mis-regulation of financial services

Invaded Iraq

Signed Lisbon Treaty

Remainers recognised there was need to reform the EU

Of course, but we can hardly reform it if we leave, as we will have zero influence in how the EU operates.

Undemocracy is thriving

Extremists - 😀

Keep the silliness going as it suits your position perfectly. How extreme can a remainer who is happy to accept the democratic process be?

“A lot” in undemocratic remoaner world clearly.

With real news flow, at least the remoaner BS provides an amusing alternative to the fire and fury entertainment. So thank you for that 😀

Still as a fan of FoM better go and visit my Turkish barber now before he is expelled from the UK 😉

Tony Blair the UK’s least popular and successful poltican ? Lead Remainiac who got the appropriate treatment on R4 Today Programme

Mismanaged economy creating largest ever bust in living memory via spectator mis-regulation of financial services

Invaded Iraq

Non of the above were caused by the EU, this was all a result of disfunctional British politics.
If anything it's become even more disfunctional over the last couple of years, a non functioning government and an opposition who you'd be forgiven for thinking were actually an extension of the Conservative Party given their abstainance from opposing anything.

May called A50 9 months later than Corbyn wanted to

Mismanaged economy creating largest ever bust in living memory via spectator mis-regulation of financial services

Non of the above were caused by the EU

Apply the same judgement when replacing EU with Brexshit and this thread may return to some sense again - good guidelines there! 😉

mooman - Member

The Remainers on here still have their totally delusional ideation that they are somehow intellectually superior than anybody with a different opinion going to happen.

It's not hard to be intellectually superior to.....

Example 1 - "I'm voting leave because I don't want the EU making up laws for us."
"Ok, can you name some laws that British MEPs didn't vote for that you think were a bad idea?"
"No....."

Example 2 - "So there are 3m EU citizens in the Uk. What will happen to them after Brexit"
Answer "They can all go home and we will train up British people to do the jobs".

These are real life examples from people I work with.

My mum voted out as a Nigerian nurse was nasty to her friend in hospital.

Example 3
International trade and food security are not important we can live off local produce.

Actually the official stats do indicate that folks with less education voted Brexit...

An unpleasent fact but I am sure their "street smarts" will get them by post Brexit.

Sounds like you are still saying leavers are racist, stupid or both. You know we can't say that.

How extreme can a remainer who is happy to accept the democratic process be?

Anyone who believes in one vote and then to shut down any discussion is about as far from democratic as can be.
Also what is it about rabid right wingers and emoticons? You do realise they arent punctuation.

yiman - Member
mooman - Member
The Remainers on here still have their totally delusional ideation that they are somehow intellectually superior than anybody with a different opinion going to happen.

It's not hard to be intellectually superior to.....

Example 1 - "I'm voting leave because I don't want the EU making up laws for us."
"Ok, can you name some laws that British MEPs didn't vote for that you think were a bad idea?"
"No....."

Example 2 - "So there are 3m EU citizens in the Uk. What will happen to them after Brexit"
Answer "They can all go home and we will train up British people to do the jobs".

These are real life examples from people I work with.

Ok .. two examples of Brexiteers there ...
Heres some examples of Remainers;

Example 1 - "We should stay in the EU because I want to, and I am far cleverer than anybody else because my mum says".

Example 2 - "Its just not fair; I am going to scream and scream until I get my own way".

Example 3 - "I voted Remain because the newspapers said I`d turn into a racist if I voted Leave".

These are real life examples from people I work with.

I gave 3 examples, so does that mean I`m more believable?

My neighbour voted on the basis of:

1. Being part of a highly effective economic,social and political union had bought him no benefits
2. All economic and social ills were the result of decisions made by “foreign” politicians in another capital
3. Antagonising you largest trading partner was not an issue, they needed us more than we needed them
4. Any means/ lies justified the end goal of faking back control
5. Better to forge wider trade links with new and more exciting partners beyond the immediate borders
6. The negative economic costs were a small price to pay for greater self determination
7. Phobia of nationals from nearby countries
8. The lack of a basic plan of how things would work (even how to pay for things) didn’t matter
9. A belief that health services would be in better shaped despite a track record that pointed to the opposite
10. Facts didn’t matter - the opponents were just engaged in project fear

Anyway enough of wee Tam and back to Europe. Excuse me.

Yes, we get that there was a Scottish Independence referendum. You might have reminded us a few times before in this thread.

Now, "the losers" of that referendum are still being democratic if calling for either independence or greater devolution. Democracy didn't end with that vote either.

These are real life examples from people I work with

Not every brexit voter is a moron or a racist but in general they were more racist and stupid than the norm for the populace.

Its just a fact it does not have an agenda

Research shows that the less intelligent you were the more likely you were to vote brexit.

You can't back that claim up. Drop it.

There was a llink between (level of) education undertaken and voting intent, but that is not the same thing at all. Different generations had different opportunities for further/higher education, for a start.

A motorbike forum I visit is very much Leave.
They also have a thread about black people and Muslims. Neither of which are complimentary.
Just a snapshot of a section of society.

I voted remain because

1.human rights
2.working time regulations
3.most of my family have emigrated out of the UK throughout Europe and my life is more interesting because of this
4.i can come and go as I please
5. A host of other European laws that have benefited society as a whole, but it would take all day to write them down on here

You can't back that claim up. Drop it.

We could debate whether qualification = intelligence and eventually accept its not perfect but a decent proxy.

Research shows that the less intelligent you were the more likely you were to vote brexit.

That’s not true, the research shows that Brexit voters are less likely to have a higher/university level [i]education[u] than remain voters

It doesn’t follow in any way that that’s an indicator of intelligence - there are myriad factors involved, particularly age (older people less likely to have gone to university as, well, less people went on to higher education in those days) plus issues such as social class and life chances.

Really it’s just like saying that black people must less intelligent because less of them go on to university

Of course, with your self professed superior intellect you should have spotted the difference between intelligence and level of education from the start 😉

You do realise they arent punctuation

You are worried about punctuation? 😉

if you were born into a class and generation that went straight into work as a teenager, that doesn't mean you're less intelligent than someone far younger who assumed university or college was always their most likely path to work.

Not every brexit voter is a moron or a racist but in general they were more racist and stupid than the norm for the populace.

This is true, however there is a third kind of leaver, those who are already wealthy and stand to become even more so, and don't care for the pain it will inflict on those who are less well off, including those who also voted leave.

I call it the farage-mogg paradox.

jamby is upset to not be named 😉

Junkyard - lazarus

Research shows that the less intelligent you were the more likely you were to vote brexit. This fact may be very uncomfortable for some [ its also true for right wing as well] but its still a fact and making up shit like "We should stay in the EU because I want to, and I am far cleverer than anybody else because my mum says" wont make me think the research had flaws in it.
Not every brexit voter is a moron or a racist but in general they were more racist and stupid than the norm for the populace.

Its just a fact it does not have an agenda

Wow!

If this were true ... then you have outed yourself as a Brexiteer for sure.

Research shows that the less intelligent you were the [b]more likely[/b] you were to vote brexit.

Doesn't mean every Brexiteer was unintelligent, of course.

And makes no difference anyway...

There are no entrance exams for a voting booth.

Indeed. But democracy has to always give the best results doesn't it?

Not necessarily. Just gives the results that the majority favours

Wow!

If this were true ... then you have outed yourself as a Brexiteer for sure

Doesn't mean every Brexiteer was unintelligent, of course.

Not every brexit voter is a moron or a racist but in general they were more racist and stupid than the norm for the populace

Of course they were not all stupid, I have never claimed they were.

Not necessarily. Just gives the results that the majority favours

So maybe some checks and balances would be good....

[sigh]

People with a University education are less likely to be working in a sector / role which has been negatively impacted by freedom of movement. If you are in manual / unskilled work that is not your experience and those people are less likely to have a University education.

Remain massively underestimated the strength of feeling against the EU and worse still insulted and demeaned those supporting Leave. Anyone could see Project Armageddon was a huge exaggeration in a blatant attempt to intimidate, Remain tried to take the voters for fools and Leavers where no such things.

In other news ...

It looks increasingky likely Merkel will not survive, even if she manages to form a coalition she won’t last the term on a personal basis. Even the Indy has picked up on this. A late attempt to sound tough (#1 issue in recent election was Turkey and she did her upmost to talk tough) has been woefully insufficient. No German Government is expected till April a full 4 months after the election. Even then we may see a new election.

Aaaaaaaand yet the areas the most heavily voted leave, least affected by immigration.

https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138

If only the facts fitted the Brexiters narrative

Remain tried to take the voters for fools and Leavers where no such things

Indeed they knew the worth of blue passports 😉

[quote=jambalaya ]Leavers where no such things.

cite

[img] [/img]

It's easy to write off Leavers as a little thick. I do it sometimes subliminally, I'll admit. Talking to a friend, acquaintance etc.

That said,I am wrong in that assertion. Utterly, completely wrong.

Many Leave voters were possibly people that didn't go to uni etc. admittedly. Then again neither did I.

In truth I think some of the most vulnerable and easy to exploit, were exploited. Actually no, targeted. Not because they are stupid but because they feel the country has left them behind and Leave campaigners painted the EU to be the big bad guys. Include a huge opportunity to kick anyone in power, anyone, in the teeth as a protest vote and there is your 52%.

I'm not annoyed with most Leavers, except Farage/Boris etc, who I can't stand. For the average Leaver I genuinely feel sorry for them, and us. Us being Remainers. As Brexit will hurt the very people that voted for it the most in all likelihood.

That is why I despise the duplicity of Farage, Boris et al.

They lied to the very people that need the EU the most. The people who need work regulations, the ECJ, the NHS etc.

I'll never forgive the Leave protagonists for that.

They are the real traitors in all this.

Very well put poopscoop. And when the average person is no better off (and most likely worse off) after Brexit what will they then be told is the problem ?

We all know the real problem lies with priories of the government but no government is going to tell them it is the governments fault.

Very well put poopscoop. And when the average person is no better off (and most likely worse off) after Brexit what will they then be told is the problem ?

They’ll still attempt to blame it on the E.U anyway, gotta have a bogeyman.

cite

All you’ve demonstrated there is that remainers were stupid enough to spend months going on and on about how much money we donate to the EU annually rather than trying to make a positive case for doing so 😆

Anyway what’s this proposal malarkey about making you prepay VAT on goods imported from the EU ?

Seems a tad bonkers.

Remain tried to take the voters for fools and Leavers where no such things.

FWIW I do agree that they did a project fear and it was risible for you or eave to claim some sort of moral high ground for probity is absurd.

Well THM, Mrs May has now reneged on a manifesto pledge on a free vote on hunting with dogs (good) - is that an undemocratic outrage and is she ignoring the 'will of the people' or is it just realpolitik.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports ]brexit...the gift that keeps on giving[/url]

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/brexit-will-divert-70m-from-our-cancer-drug-making-capacity-glaxosmithkline ]...and giving...[/url]

I think the problem is neither hmrc or GSK nor the UK construction industry are run by "grown-ups" so they are just not with the program! No doubt they will be re-educated soon.

Even better is May's comment about 'getting the message' about fox hunting ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42594068). Strange how the Brexit 'message' doesn't seem to have sunk in...

I'm sure a grown-up will be along to explain soon though.