[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Double post sorry

. I started a thread about the chicken.

You did. And it has been explained to you many times that you misunderstood the issue. And yet you repeat your falsehoods. #jambafact

Which criminals are we more likely to detect , ones from an area where we share police intelligence and information or ones from an area where we do not ?

So, you admit that the system current,y in place doesnt work

Perfect

Just like with the contaminated eggs - the current system didn’t work

You keep giving defences (where the [u]existing[/u] network of EU membership has failed) that the only solution possible is [b]more[/b] integration.

Thereby you prove the point, the EU as currently formulated does not work - it can only be made to work by complete harmonisation of systems, tax, money, economy, police, everything. The inevitable and irresistible direction of travel is a single European state, exactly what most of us oppose

Extrapolate much ninfan?
Your point is basically that if there is ever a problem not being in the eu will fix it which appears to be the level of planning this government has put into it

Looks like habitual presenter of untruths, internet bully and self-confessed sex pest are missing from the latest false accusations. That’s a relief. Imagine falling that far?

Meanwhile in Europe....

Your point is basically that if there is ever a problem not being in the eu will fix it

Large parts of the EU work very well indeed - ok the € is a disaster - but that is different

Meanwhile can we have a solution to some of these problems now
[img] [/img]
What can we leave to protect children?
Which utopia will protect people from those already there? Like those making death threats to MP's?

Your point is basically that

Ah, remainers telling us what they think our point was, wha5 they think we we think and why they think we voted, plus ca change

Ah, remainers telling us what they think our point was, wha5 they think we we think and why they think we voted, plus ca change

Good to see The Times highlighting how negotiations actually work. Plenty of behind the scenes stuff with the grown ups. Where the real work is done.

Jezza also nice and clear. We are formally leaving the EU and there will be no second referendum. And that’s from a conviction politician. .

lol if you keep saying it I'm sure you can believe it....

Perhaps an acceptance that the guy is not up to the job and has caused a year of wasted time and effort to get to a point we could have signed up to on day 1.

I don't think anyone assumed for a moment that this was a 1 man job but his leadership of it has hurt the UK.

mikewsmith - Member

Ah, remainers telling us what they think our point was, wha5 they think we we think and why they think we voted, plus ca change

It's mostly because your not very good at explaining it without contradicting yourself of showing us stuff that proves you wrong.

Nice one Mike. 😆

Owned Brexy-boy. 😆

Plenty of denials that there are grown ups doing the hard work behind the scenes. It’s a remoaner favourite. See above ^

(Unless of course you are claiming that people who post that kind of stuff are simply not telling the truth. You may have a point there...)

Imagine if we had wasted a year hiding behind three false preconditions before fudging then in the end. Sorry Ireland, we were not being serious. Well come back to you in due course...

Plenty of behind the scenes stuff with the grown ups

Like what?

Hmmmm.....

See your language is the problem here, continual use of grown ups is fairly condescending. The repeated term of abuse that you have chosen "remoaner" keeps it classy though.

Anyway for 2018 I'll list some criteria for Brexit being a success
A trade deal better than the one we have with the EU
Better trade deals with the rest of the world than the EU could deliver
Zero removal of rights for people, animals and the environment.

That is a start.

Hmmmm.....

Yup thought as much.

THM - he didn’t quite say there will be no second (third) referendum. He said “Our position is that we are not advocating a second referendum”

Wriggle room?

When you read what he said I’d say plenty of wriggle room.

As for conviction politician, avoiding obvious jokes about Jeffery Archer bring the only politician with true convictions (other convicts are available), I’ve never seen a front bench “conviction politician” who wasn’t a total opportunist. I doubt Corbyn is different.

THM - glad the “grown ups” are doing something because they didn’t write the sector analyses did they now.
At least I hope not. If they did we need some new “grown ups”.

What are you saying IGM? Blasphemy....

Still he got The National in a froth

Well despite all the naysayers we have got passed the three delaying tactics and are now on to trade - although the kindagarten are still getting ready for that. So despite all the denials that it couldn’t happen we are moving towards a deal and Brexshit.

Inconvenient I know, but....

Mike you ignore the fact that grown ups is a direct retort to those who lie that there are no intelligent people involved in the negotiations. Which like most of their comments is patently untrue. And temoaner is accurate - constant moaning and making things up to a greater extent than Brexshiteers. That’s why it’s important to distinguish between remainers and remoaners

More than enough written and published on my second from both sides. I have four lever arch files next to my desk. But until we know the details of the trade deal, there is not much more than can be done with them. Unlike DD I have read them all though

[quote=mikewsmith ]See your language is the problem here, continual use of grown ups is fairly condescending. The repeated term of abuse that you have chosen "remoaner" keeps it classy though.

Basically, everyone's an arsehole apart from THM

Plenty of denials that there are grown ups doing the hard work behind the scenes. It’s a remoaner favourite. See above ^

I don't think that there is any doubt that there are grown ups at work its just the results will be presented to the type of children who probably like pulling the legs off spiders for approval.

See your language is the problem here, continual use of grown ups is fairly condescending. The repeated term of abuse that you have chosen "remoaner" keeps it classy though.

Anyway for 2018 I'll list some criteria for Brexit being a success
A trade deal better than the one we have with the EU
Better trade deals with the rest of the world than the EU could deliver
Zero removal of rights for people, animals and the environment.

Haven’t you realised by now blasphemy and heresy are my stock in trade? 😉

Through my father’s job I met a lot of politicians when I was growing up and my job leads me to meet them every so often too.
There are some really good people out there. It’s decent pay but most of them could earn considerably more elsewhere. Most of them are in it because they want to make things better.
Unfortunately “conviction politicians” and front benchers are frequently the least convincing.
Donald Dewar and David Steel being exceptions - they were quietly very impressive when I met them. More of the air of a decent civil servant than a professional politician.

Come on Mr Brexit Oracle i'm on the edge of my seat for some specifics on what the civil servants (grown ups as you call them in a vacuous attempt to dismiss others views that don't match yours) are doing?

Basically, everyone's an arsehole apart from THM

That’s not very nice Bob. Lots of very pleasant people here

According to the timetable I got free inside my breakfast cereal today is unicorn fencing, other days they just rock slowly backwards and forwards for a bit before they realise it's actually a really easy job, you just have to make a bit of a fuss and then agree to what the EU asks

Ninfan seriously are you ok ? You used to be a lot sharper ? No system works to totally eliminate risk. We are currently in a system where we share information within the EU the case you highlight appears to be one where the UK failed to access that information so a failure of the UK not the EU . You want us to move to a system where we would be out of the loop entirely. Who poses a bigger risk in this country UK Nationals, Other EU Nationals or Non EU Nationals.
Failure of UK police to share info internally let to Soham, but I suspect you blame that on the EU too.

I don't think ninfan cares whose fault it is. In his utopia there would be no foreigners coming in, so no problem.

Good job we didn’t do that then isn’t it mike. Otherwise we would really have the Frosties in charge.

But you keep insulting and condescending those highly skilled people (on both sides) who have actually done a very good job at moving us past the very silly obstacles. The documentation which you won’t find chez Kellog was masterful. But you have to be interested in details to see that - and believe that it could happen, which of course was impossible aooerenfly 😉

Help me out.

Are “grown ups”, “civil servants” and “unelected bureaucrats” the same people?

Ah so you do know what's going on but won't tell us.... Care to say what has actually happened in the last year? You know apart from agreeing to 3 things after saying we wouldn't or will this be another 3 page drip feed and hope we give up

Bet you a fiver you vote for the same party next general election though

I'll take that bet. In fact I'm that confident, I'll let you cash out now for £2.50, paypal in my profile, which is what £5 will probably be worth post-brexit as we descend into becoming a third rate economy.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]Basically, everyone's an arsehole apart from THM
That’s not very nice Bob. Lots of very pleasant people here

It's a shame you're not one of them

THM - Member
But you keep insulting and condescending those highly skilled people (on both sides) who have actually done a very good job at moving us past the very silly obstacles.

@thm - help me out here, have we basically agreed to stay in the SM with FoM (assuming we can't invent a magical pixie border for Ireland) ?

And that we will end up having EU rules imposed upon us in much the same way that they do to Switzerland and Norway already?

But you keep insulting and condescending those highly skilled people

No we're being condescending towards you and your continued posting of poorly informed bigoted opinions as fact.

But you have to be interested in details to see that

I am. I've asked twice for the details. Do I need to link you to the posts our can you click back in your browser and scroll to the bottom of the page?

I guess once unicorn fencing is done we can sort out 'access to' or 'in' the European Fairy Dust Consortium.

Retarded
Bat shit crazy
Arseholes

Next?

Classy stuff

We are leaving the SM by definition, so are not "in" it. We are/will be negotiating the terms of our future access to it.. Nothing has been agreed to date. Given that neither of our major political parties believe in FoM that might be a pipe dream but it would nice to have it. They will fudge it though in the end.

Like any country that exports into the EU our goods and services will have to meet EU regulations. Nothing new there.

A sink hole opened up and swallowed the morale high ground you try to occupy about 200 pages ago.

Still waiting on details of stuff that grown ups are talking about.

True you guys descended below the Brexshiteers with insults and untruths. You are correct this time

Were you asleep on the 14/15 December? The papers and news was full of where we had got to - Tusk even congratulated May on the progress. If you couldn’t be bothered to read it then, you probably won’t know either

Brexshiteers

The Mash seems to be monitoring this thread...
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/brexiters-and-remainers-celebrate-christmas-truce-with-football-match-which-then-goes-horribly-wrong-20171223141356
PS - you won't like it THM - it refers to people using Remoaner in an impolite way...

True you guys descended below the Brexshiteers with insults and untruths.

The papers and news...

😆

True you guys descended below the Brexshiteers with insults and untruths.

this has to be intentional satire as the alternative is worrying.

And following on from bringing back blue passports
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/27/britannia-win-lottery-fifty-tory-mps-back-new-lotto-game-let/ ]Britannia to win the Lottery! Fifty Tory MPs back new lotto game to let public pay for new royal yacht[/url]

Ah so you do know what's going on but won't tell us.... Care to say what has actually happened in the last year? You know apart from agreeing to 3 things after saying we wouldn't or will this be another 3 page drip feed and hope we give up

lots of plate spinning....

I really don’t think anyone in the EU or U.K. wants to deal with what happens if we fall out with no deal.

So keep spinning and hope something comes up in the meantime or until it’s someone else’s problem.

Were you asleep on the 14/15 December?

Yes.

Behind the scenes implies it's not in the public domain.

So with that in mind -

[quote=teamhurtmore]Plenty of behind the scenes stuff with the grown ups

[quote=sr0093193]Like what?

Enlighten us.

if he told you
1) he would not be able to patronise you for your lack of comprehension

2) we could actually debate with him, like a grown up, as he had said something concrete

Neither of these are going to happen - has the last few hundred pages taught you nothing?

I really don’t think anyone in the EU or U.K. wants to deal with what happens if we fall out with no deal.

[img] [/img]

Everyone needs a hobby!

That horse isn't dead - it is just being unpatriotic.

Neither of these are going to happen - has the last few hundred pages taught you nothing?

I have learned that none of us has the remotest clue what THM is yammering on about, ergo, he is much more cleverer than what we are.

In his utopia there would be no foreigners coming in, so no problem.

Actually, I’m all for immigration, I’d just prefer that we had the opportunity to pick and choose the best and most deserving, rather than being lumbered with the worst

But, but... "No deal is better than a bad deal".

1. We have just concluded the first round of complex Brexshit negotiations. Despite many remoaners arguing that progress was impossible, both sides agreed that the opposite had indeed occurred and both were keen to move on to next phase. As above, Tusk congratulated May on reaching this point in mid December, something that would not have happened had no progress been made (as suggested ^). Given the distance between both parties at the start (again denied ^) - and the silly EU tactics - that was no mean feat. Most of the work here was conducted behind the scenes. The posturing and games were of course publicised to the full to pander to the masses thirst for noise.

2. The end result involved considerable skill in achieving consensus and documentation that allows both sides to claim victory (partial or otherwise) while giving them both significant future wiggle room.* The drafting of the mis-named divorce bill was particularly skilful and showed high levels of intelligence and mental dexterity (I supplied links many pages ago). Unsurprising that many chose and still choose to ignore this to this day. But I guess it is inconvenient and fails to support the weak remoan narrative

* in some cases, detailed redrafting and behind the scenes negotiations continued at 11:59. Successfully done (ok they fudged the detail (and partially sold out Ireland in the process) but that was always to be expected, it's the EU after all)

3. Considerable behind the scenes progress has been made on the next phases already - all of which is done behind the scenes. Clear compromises are already pencilled in for many areas, some of which have been quietly pre-tested by both sides with industry players and bodies etc.

Given the time table and the significant obstacles placed in the way of progress by the EU, getting to this stage was no mean achievement. Just think the old girl might just pull this of (with considerable help from grown ups). How bitter that will be to swallow!!

What would be more amusing to watch - May pulling it off, or Corbyn delivering Brexshit himself ?!?

3. Considerable behind the scenes progress has been made on the next phases already - all of which is done behind the scenes. Clear compromises are already pencilled in for many areas, some of which have been quietly pre-tested by both sides with industry players and bodies etc.

Like what? What areas have compromises been penciled in? What are these compromises? What has been pre-tested and how?

I'm beginning to think THM is a social engineering spambot, trotting out posts that are irrelevant to the current conversation and unable to field responses to any direct questioning.

I think that is the best you will ever get from him so enjoy..perhaps he did it to just make sure folk still respond seeing as everyone is aware of what he is doing and yet many still try to [s]feed[/s]engage ?

and yet you are there with a quick reply....you spend a lot of time on irrelevancies clearly.

(You will be joining my lovely shadow, the chief troll soon...oh....how many times today?)

Not as much as you and not as quick either 😛

THM.

You forgot to caveat that completely subjective, non-committal, vague nonsense by saying you were a 'democratic remainer'.

For a 'reluctant' Brexie (or pragmatic remainer or whatever) you sure are doing a fine job of fanfaring all sorts of bilge to make it sound like it is going well.

Or was the reluctance thing just a ploy - you naughty thing, you?

Oh, and is 'behind the scenes' your version of 'strong and stable' - or did the algorithm get jammed in a loop that time?

and yet you are there with a quick reply

Yeah Christmas is escaping from my asshole in liquid form, I've got plenty of time today.

Still waiting for some specifics on behind the scenes grown up action.

It's going very slowly but better than expected and, most interestingly, differently to the claims made by remoaners. Which given that most things happen behind the scenes does keep it interesting/amusing for the rest of us. We used to have to rely on the oppo making things up in the past. Now we get a daily feed 😉

The end result involved considerable skill in achieving consensus and documentation that allows both sides to claim victory

really? Both sides claiming victory you think?

Red Line: The UK govt didn't want to pay a penny in money to the EU

Actuality: We will pay as normal into the EU for 2019 and 2020, and exit will cost somewhere between £35-£40 billion, and will pay pension contributions indefinitely

Red Line: The UK govt didn't want to have ECJ jurisdiction

Actuality: UK courts can/will refer to the ECJ for at least 8 years past exit

Red line: no border in Ireland

Actuality: unclear how an open border will be achieved but round one says in the absence of a later agreement, the UK will ensure “full alignment” with the rules of the customs union and single market that uphold the Good Friday agreement.

Red line: We will leave the SM, CU and EU

Actuality: See the magical realism of Ireland border.

The UK govt has caved in. The idea that May and Davies, and the rest of Tories have, in any way shape or form, clenched victory from round one of the leave talks, is as fantastically deluded as the claim the "something approaching but not quite the same colour blue" passport is an iconic symbol of British-ness.

QED

They did a brilliant job!

Would you really prefer a bad deal?

For clarity, quitting the EU with no deal is a bad deal.
All conceivable (and not just someone’s fantasy) deals are worse than EU (non-euro) membership.
I wonder when we get to “we're not going to take a bad deal so we won’t do a deal to quit - we’ll just stay”?
Corbyn’s recent words (unlike the headline) would not exclude that. Wriggle room as THM observes is a useful thing.
Just pondering. But I keep being right at the moment so I might as well push the boat out on pondering. I might be wrong for a change. Never know.

Not sure why THM mocks us for not knowing what's going on behind the scenes...? Of course we don't.

I haven’t. I have simply disagreed with those who claim
Incorrectly that nothing is going on behind the scenes.

They are the ones who are mocking you. The deniers and moaners

Cos he's a troll,who claims to work in a big financial organisation,which is probably a chippy in Clapham,so he has no idea either,that's why he is good at sneering,and very bad at providing evidence to back up his claims.

Oh,did I forget to mention condescending too ?

I haven’t. I have simply disagreed with those who claim
Incorrectly that nothing is going on behind the scenes.

Who said that? I didn't notice it.

Chippy?? Don’t be so rude. We do fine kebabs served with warm vimto as well - don’t be so condescending. Chippy....

Blink and you miss it mol. There’s a lot of false stuff being posted so it is hard to keep up admittedly

Indeed, on both side of the debate.

True but remoaners are winning it at the moment

It's a good story THM,keep making it up,it amuses us no end.

Haggis supper please THM.