[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

long term peace (in Western Europe at least)

Yep, all down to the EU, nowt at all to do with those British and American tanks sitting on the Rhine for seventy years

Was the referendum legally binding?

This should hopefully explain how legally binding the referendum was.

Spoiler alert, it's not legally binding.

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#FakeNews #WillOfThePeople #EnimiesOfTheState

Yep, all down to the EU, nowt at all to do with those British and American tanks sitting on the Rhine for seventy years

Yeah, cause those 2500 or so German tanks also sitting on the Rhine only existed in peoples imaginations. 🙄

cause those 2500 or so German tanks also sitting on the Rhine

Who do you think our and the American ones were really there to keep in the box?

Who do you think our and the American ones were really there to keep in the box?

Having worked on a tank base in Munster, Germany in 1980 I can report that all the people I spoke to only had one perceived threat to deal with, the USSR.

I think ninfan’s making the point that NATO kept the peace in Western Europe against the threat, not the EU.

Ninfan is correct in that those NATO forces were part of the solution.
Unfortunately for ninfan he is using the same argument that the NRA use in America to suggest that lots of guns prevents gun crime.
There also needs to be a political, economic and cultural will not to use those tanks on other Western European countries.
As Edukator says that will existed in the 1980s. The equivalent will did not exist in the 1910s, a time when there was also a fair amount of armament kicking round in Europe - quite the reverse in fact. And that huge amount of armament did not prevent WWI.

So sorry ninfan if you’re resorting to an international version of the NRA gun control argument, you’ve already lost.

In which case Ninfan has missed out the French tanks in Germany, unless he includes them in "our" as part of the EU.

I have a magic way of stopping tiger attacks. I stuff pencils up my nose. I have never been attacked by a tiger which is proof it works

While UK politicians drown in BS and self indulgent posturing at least we can turn to the Italian PM for a dose of common sense

Bravo Paulo Gentiloni.

Yep, all down to the EU, nowt at all to do with those British and American tanks sitting on the Rhine for seventy years

And what do you think that the creation of the Coal agreement in the 1950, did to prevent war between the two traditional western European superpowers. a) did not provide a reassurance of peace, or b) prevented war, which up until that point had happened 3 times in recent memory?

Probably worth reviewing [url= http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html ]Churchill's 1946 speech[/url].

He seemed to think peace would need more than tanks and he called for a [i]"United States of Europe" ..."which could give a sense of enlarged patriotism and common citizenship" ..."to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom."[/i]

There also needs to be a political, economic and cultural will not to use those tanks on other Western European countries.

There is no doubt in my mind at all that closer trade and political ties between European nations diminishes the possibility of conflict between them (nothing to do with Russia).

In which case Ninfan has missed out the French tanks in Germany, unless he includes them in "our" as part of the EU.

He just mentioned those under NATO military command.

Igm, WWI broke out between 2 military alliances. During the Cold War, the nations of Western Europe (and more importantly North America) were united in the same military alliance. I’d suggest that the political union that became the EU certainly played its part in meshing them together, but NATO (and it’s nuclear weapons more than its tanks) was the decisive factor in stopping the Cold War turning hot.
Tj, you can make that argument against any military deterrence task. Deterrent is better than war, no?

He just mentioned those under NATO military command.

The tanks down the rhine after WWII were there four years before NATO existed, and they were US, French and British. Ninfan needs to more clearly explain what he's talking about.

Anyhow, as others have said, there has been peace in Europe during the EU years and as nations join the peaceful area expands. The lack of trade wars is major factor in peace, or looking at another way trade tensions have previously contributed to friction and war.

Britain's politicians have spent the last 18 months declaring a trade war on the EU witl clearly stated plans to tip the playing field in the UK's favour by making labour and taxes cheaper and dismantling legislation thats "hampers" industry through better, healthier and safer working condtions. And the safety of food, drugs... .

No they have not. In fact the whole past week saw the issue of what equivalence etc. might meant etc

Our regulatory regime across many sectors will remain closely aligned. Why wouldn’t it? It would be stupid to have domestic standards that differed a lot from those in export markets.

More unnecessary scare stories

It would be stupid to have domestic standards that differed a lot from this in export markets.

Doesn't that mostly apply to physical goods though THM?

The goods we export will still have to meet certain standards in the countries we export to, so it makes sense to stay closely aligned there.

But as far as I know there is nothing to say that, for example, the workers making those goods need to abide by an equivalent of the European Working Time Directive. Is there?

Has the right-wing press gone into meltdown this morning? Does the Daily Heil have the single word [b]TRAITORS!!![/b] as a headline, with the rebels photographs and a snipers cross-hairs over the top of them?

No services is another obvious example. The UK has been at the forefront of regulatory developments in financial services and our regulation is closely aligned with EU

(In specific areas there is some regulatory arbitrage across Europe and there will still be room for fudges with Basel 4 regulation)

Hence the EBA and EMA stories were massively exaggerated for effect.

I don't honestly think Davies can do anything right now. He's like a spider that's had all its legs pulled off.

🙂

I think what we are seeing again and again is that Labour are running a much tighter ship than the Tories can dream of right now, it was the same in the election, Corbyn drove the narrative and The Tories just u-turned & squabbled, May has been undermined by her Brexiteer MPs at every turn (Patel, Gove, Johnson, Mogg, etc)
while safely out of power Labour were able to maintain their constructive ambiguity (good one DD!) over Brexit and ran a far more disciplined, yet genuine campaign.
Yesterday only 2 Labour MPs defied the whip, the Tories were lucky it was only 11 and now bitter recriminations are being lashed out as May has to go to Brussels looking even weaker.

Funny thing is a year ago we were being told it was Labour in chaos & the Tories were all about strength & stability !

Double post, but see also the sex scandal stiff labour have chakrabati'd their scandals while May has Damien Green locked in a cupboard somewhere, unsure when to let him out for fear of the kick-back (and presumably a big pile of crusty tissues to deal with)

No they have not.

I was quoting the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, the best source of government policy for foreigners:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/exclusive-boris-johnson-yes-will-take-back-350m-eu-nhs/

So we end up with Labour delivering Brexshit - Jezza will be delighted at the strength of the underground momentum 😉

No services is another obvious example. The UK has been at the forefront of regulatory developments in financial services and our regulation is closely aligned with EU

A few years ago Britain was trying to dismantle financial regulation from within the EU claiming it would increase EU GDP. Fortunately the other EU states realised it would only benefit the City and **** everyone else.

Nope

GrahamS - Member

But as far as I know there is nothing to say that, for example, the workers making those goods need to abide by an equivalent of the European Working Time Directive. Is there?

The EU have made it 100% clear that they will not allow undercutting by a reduction in standards. WTD may well come under that.

Are we all enjoying the rebels/traitors being denounced for their disloyalty by the likes of John Redwood and Bill Cash?

You really couldn't make it up, could you? 😆

No services is another obvious example. The UK has been at the forefront of regulatory developments in financial services and our regulation is closely aligned with EU

But is there any reason that it [i]has[/i] to be. Obviously customers in the EU will need to meet their own local legal requirements.

But if, as a hyperbolic example, a European customer uses a UK call centre service, do they (legally) care what hours the staff work, what equality laws protect them etc?

How do we keep enough regulatory alginment with the EU such that there is no border in Ireland, but also be able to conduct trade deals with other counties, like the US for example, which may want to us to allow chlorine washed chicken (or something else illegal in the EU). What stops it going across the border into the EU? This whole thing seems impossible.

Democracy failed when David Cameron decided to hold the referendum and allow people to vote for something that isn't (at the moment) possible to achieve.

The EU have made it 100% clear that they will not allow undercutting by a reduction in standards. WTD may well come under that.

I'd be interested to see how they will enforce that. Most of Europe (including the UK) seems happy enough to buy goods from countries where working conditions are less than ideal.

Hence the EBA and EMA stories were massively exaggerated for effect.

Oh, that’s good news. I hadn't heard that they had cancelled their plans to leave.

Democracy failed when David Cameron decided to hold the referendum

😀

nope

Every time you write "nope" you're plain wrong, THM.

Self-consumed malcontents 😆

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GrahamS - Member

The EU have made it 100% clear that they will not allow undercutting by a reduction in standards. WTD may well come under that.

I'd be interested to see how they will enforce that. Most of Europe (including the UK) seems happy enough to buy goods from countries where working conditions are less than ideal.

The difference is that if there is undercutting / dumping from outside the EU the EU can put tarriffs on the products. This is the mechanism the EU will use if the UK tries it.

The EU wil take the quality stuff from overseas to meet its standards and you can have the cheap rank rotten stuff that meets the UK's lower standards.

On the contrary Ed your link does not support your incorrect observation. But thanks for falsifying your own point

That is the only thing that links with the idea of “every time”....

Deliberate twisting information Is very bad for informed debate.

Deliberate twisting information Is very bad for informed debate.

Other people on this thread can read and make up their minds who is "deliberately twisting information" and refusing to recognise the dreadful truths about what (mainly) Tory politicians have been saying and trying to do.

Sun's out in paradise, my local taxes have paid to heat an oudoor 50m pool, best go and make the most of the generosity of my fellow citizens and being in a place where profit isn't the only reason for doing anything and everything. Have a look around you, what do you see?

They can indeed - your link doesn’t even address the topic under discussion. At best Fallon talks about how a lack of competition harms the supply of credit to smaller firms. You are making up the rest.

A lovely sunny view, and lots of hard working, talented people who are paid to tell he truth not make things up. Great panorama.

Fallon also talks about markets and competition helping customers then illustrates it (as a good idea!) with an example where government interference allows less efficient but smaller companies to flourish.

Ed - I don’t think your link really addresses the earlier points. It does expose Fallon as an imbecile though.

Talking about "working conditions for labour", isn't China the elephant in the room?

Amazed at Ed’s choice of website. Is that one on his favourites bar?!?

But no change in terms of distorting reality to make false points. Uk has been at the heart of EU regulation for financial services. London’s position as #1 global financial centre is based on other positive factors

Oh yes, Ninfan. Treaty of Brussels. NATO comes later.

Airtragic - WWI not as simple as you suggest. Multiple treaties forming a couple of loose webs that over the course of the war might come to be seen as alliances but didn’t start that way. Also my point was about peace within Western Europe (ie particularly UK, Germanic states, France) not going to war every 30 years. NATO does play a part along side ECHR, EU (and predecessors), but even there it arguably started as a political organisation that morphed into a military alliance.

Armies can win wars, they are less good at keeping people together other than by suppression.

So we end up with Labour delivering Brexshit - Jezza will be delighted at the strength of the underground momentum

[url= https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/12/12/voting-intention-conservatives-42-labour-41-10-11-/ ]Long on babble - short on facts..[/url]

I don't think JC is in any danger of getting the keys to No 10 just yet - but keep spreading the lies..

teamhurtmore - Member
Amazed at Ed’s choice of website. Is that one on his favourites bar?!?

Dunno. But I’m tempted to if they lampoon their own folk in that sort of high brow satirical way.

Oh wait a minute, Fallon wasn’t serious when he wrote something with that big a hole in the fundamental argument was he?

After all this and the polls suggest that - how bad must the oppo be??

THM - now I know you’re trolling. Quick stick a smiley on it. 😉

On the contrary - genuine question. We have a gov in disarray on their usual blow up topic (EU) a weakening economy, stagnant real wage growth etc one would not expect polls to be indicating what the link suggests unless the oppo was very weak indeed

And what’s not to like with a Jobs First Brexshit?

how bad must the oppo be??

Genuine non-bickering question to the whole of STW. I haven't got a UK vote but if I had, which party should some who believes in EU membership, a fair progressive tax system, equality in education and health, a high level of pulic services ans state owneership fo monopoly service providers vote for?

Britain needs a new political party. France got one in a year, surely this is a opportunity for some enlightened humanists to start a new party.

Edukator, we have that pretty much in the Lib Dems. Unfortunately the masses are of the opinion that they were entirely to blame for every misdemeanour encountered during our brief flirtation with a coalition government.

edit: random duplicate post

Edukator. SNP

THM - if that poll didn’t support your argument of the morning then you’d be cautioning against looking at one poll. That’s why I’m suggesting you’re playing.

On the other hand, when you check the right/wrong to leave polls (see questions below) they are all currently (and for many months) pro-remain.
The government is doing something the country doesn’t want.
Democracy needs to get its act together.

If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?

In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?

surely this is a opportunity for some enlightened humanists to start a new party.

I genuinely think it wouldn't get anywhere. Most people (not STW) have made their peace with the fact that we're leaving. Most can see that there are up and down sides to this, and the "Utopian" views that both sides express on here is just a parlour game, rejoining the EU won't solve everything (as some seem to think), and when we leave it will will impact the economy and people for 20+ years, and TBH anything could happen in that time, which may make leaving look like either the biggest act of self mutilation or the luckiest swerve in history.

It was a reckless gamble that history will rightly castigate Cameron for, but for lots of people the EU thing is done.

SNP just need a wing that drops the nationalist part, and gets involved across the UK.

Unfortunately the masses are of the opinion that they were entirely to blame for every misdemeanour encountered during our brief flirtation with a coalition government.

So we end up with Labour delivering Brexshit - Jezza will be delighted at the strength of the underground momentum

Britain needs a new political party. France got one in a year, surely this is a opportunity for some enlightened humanists to start a new party.

Totally agree in that we need a centralist party, which is where the Lib Dems should be. I have no faith in any party at the moment so for the first time, since I've been able to vote, I can't find a party I would vote for which would only give me the protest/blocking option which still gives credence to a party I don't agree with either.
The problem is that the UK needs a better standard of politician. There are politicians I admire from all parties but none enough to back their party.

Lib Dems failed nearly all my criteria the last time I looked at their manifesto and sided with the Conservatives who fulfil non of my criteria at present.

The SNP do better, TJ. The "N" in the middle makes me feel uncomfortable but Scotland is a lot better on public services, education in particular.

Semi-playing of course!!

I’m a remainer - why would I change my vote? But think that you are being selective with your polls (not that it matters)

Doesn’t matter what I think. I was in the minority. My side lost.

Leave - we have had two votes on the issue - a referendum and a parliamentary vote - time to execute the results. Not my choice but as above, I’m in the minority here and my side lost the argument. Tant pis but I’m a democrat

Basic problem is our fptp system makes it all but impossible for alternatives to get a look-in. See also USA. Of course the SNP does challenge my view a bit.

Basic problem is our fptp system makes it all but impossible for alternatives to get a look-in.

how bad must the oppo be??

The issue is deeper than that - Corbyn / Labour can't / won't stand on a policy of reversing Brexit because 1/ will of the people / undemocratic but particularly 2/ it will alienate swathes of their core vote, the hard-working man that is (gross oversimplification) putting control and immigration above economy and security. So that when the dust is settled they are still relevant to that section.

So for now they simply aren't playing..... let the Tories screw it up, and then we'll see what the polls say.

It's wrong because despite understanding and respecting that as a nation we voted out, I'm still of the opinion that as the situation develops we should be able to reconsider if the path we're following is the right one. And i know the libDems stood on a policy of cancelling the whole show and got no support but - I mean, the LibDems!

Ed's calls for a new party are spot on - I said the same 18 months ago - but our politics is too ingrained, too 2 party tribal where people cannot allow themselves to consider other alternatives because it would be a betrayal of their working class / middle class / delete as applicable roots. I had hoped this might be the shake up that would change it, I now suspect not.

Good. Look at the mess we're in right now with a minority nutter party able to call the shots. I do not want that to be the norm.

Tant pis but I’m a democrat

Well, sort of.

Anyway, yes two votes, both prior to the fundamental heart beat of our democracy, the GE, so neither can claim primacy over the present parliament.

That said parliament are, as you pointed out, lacking in leadership so they will just muddle along on their present course, ignoring the apparent fact that public opinion has changed.

A link to those selective polls - they’re trackers across a variety of organisations and they’re surprisingly consistent.
First 4 are probably most interesting.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/uk-poll-results/

Edukator - remember the N stands for national not nationalist

Indeed two sorts

True
True when it suits

I am on the first category 😉
You?

Intersting to be getting pro-EU ads on YouTube “promoting EU diversity”, doubly interesting that the pro-EU news service Politco.eu is running a “so white” campaign highlighting the all white, all male make up of many EU bodies including those from Germany for example.

[url= https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-blind-to-diversity-whiteout-european-parliament/ ]Politco: Brussels is blind to diversity[/url]

Democracy and referendums etc.
Picture explanation
[img] [/img]
The EU Referendum
[img] [/img]Democracy and real life

One is a snapshot in time the other is time moving along and things changing (one could say a series of still images put together to create the illusion of movement)
Stuff changes, you have to deal with it unless you're a teacher/elbow patched lecturer who doesn't want to update his handouts an acetate's

N stands for not what we do (badly), only what we say (very different eg health and education inequality)

But at least the SNP might now be looking at raising income tax after all. Bit of a turnaround from being advocates of competing on lower tax rates than rUK. But consistency is not part of their DNA is it!

And as of this week there is the promise of democratically elected representatives having a say on the final deal. 12 rebels so far, many more to come I think, I hope.

We had that last week too

teamhurtmore - Member
Indeed two sorts

True
True when it suits

I am on the first category
You?

Oh I’m in the first category on that basis, not sure about you given you possibly were “true” in July 2016 but not now - I think that’s the second group.

But at least the SNP might now be looking at raising income tax after all.

So does the "N" in FN, BNP and a few others:

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe ]Nationalist parties in europe[/url]

5thElefant - Member

But at least the SNP might now be looking at raising income tax after all.

That'll be the end of them next election.

Two in three Brions are willing to pay higher taxes to order to properly fund the NHS, a new poll has found – a significant increase in the number previously prepared to do so.

The research, carried out by Ipsos Mori on behalf of the King’s Fund think tank, found 66 per cent of respondents would be happy to pay more “in order to maintain the level of spending needed” for the health service."

In contrast, just 20 per cent are in favour of spending cuts to other key services such as welfare and education to boost funding for the NHS, while just ten per cent believe the health service should reduce either its range of services or the level of care to balance its books.

2/3 willing to pay more
40% pay none

Easy to talk about others being taxed more though!! Talk is cheap

Not everyone thinks just about themselves

the pro-EU news service Politco.eu

Jamba - the pro-EU news service Politico.eu (spelling) has according to Wikipedia “maintained an independent stance regarding the affairs of the European Union (EU)” at least under its former name.
A quick scan of the articles suggest that’s not far off.
The fact you see it as pro-EU tells us more about you than it, though to be fair you’ve never really hidden your brextremist views (no deal, vote WTO, etc)

[quote=teamhurtmore ]No services is another obvious example. The UK has been at the forefront of regulatory developments in financial services and our regulation is closely aligned with EU..........
t.

I seem to remember it was the common regs affecting the investment industry that were one of Jambas main reasons for his dislike of the EU. Plus the fear of upcoming regulations concerning tax evasion coming from the EU might be part of the hidden agenda behind the right wing push for Brexit. Maybe?