[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Personally i want exactly what was promised, an advisory referendum leading to a period of discussion where some facts could be presented.

Who promised that?

THM doesn't dislike the Scottish, he is rather complimentary about them for rejecting independence, I am not sure he has a great deal of time for Scottish Nationalists but he says no worse about them than people say about Tories on here.

funny way of showing it with continual sneering and posting of racist comments. He might like the Brigadoon image but the real Scotland - he actively hates it from his posting because we reject his political philosophy. classic hatred of the uppity scots who don't know their place.

Re: the cartoon, I am somewhat surprised that people who were upset by "watermelon" smile are comfortable with the portrayal of Africans in that cartoon, but then they are probably comfortable with the portrayal of Jewish people with hooked noses.

As I said I see the lips as a bit dubious but not actively racist. The Watermelon thing is denigratory. I am willing to listen to opinion. Is that what you see as racist? the big lips?

Good link cougar, the brexies still ranting about betrayal by May & co and how sunlit uplands are just around the corner are making me all stereotypical about leavers again tho, I really shouldn't engage with them!

continual sneering and posting of racist comments. He might like the Brigadoon image but the real Scotland - he actively hates it from his posting because we reject his political philosophy. classic hatred of the uppity scots who don't know their place.

I thought you couldn't see his posts because you had killfiled him?

THM doesn't dislike the Scottish

funny way of showing it with continual sneering

To be fair TJ, I think you're being oversensitive here.

THM sneers at everyone who doesn't agree with him. And that's a broad church.

Cougar - Moderator
This is worth a read, I think. For both sides of the camp.

https://orderofthecoif.wordpress.com/2017/12/10/irrelevant-england-and-the-thick-brexiteer/

A very enlightening article there Cougar. Doesn't change my attitude to "Brexit" - (god I hate that word) but does make we wish that we had some politicians who could put the case so eloquently instead of spouting jingoistic bollox in the hope of furthering their career.

perhaps he has a memory and people quote the outrageous posters trolly posters on here so its easy to see who is saying what

mikewsmith

an advisory referendum leading to a period of discussion where some facts could be presented. Add in the opportunity to review progress or lack of and the state of the deal before rejecting or accepting it with the final option to remain in the eu. That is not undemocratic.

All the above is entirely logical and would truly do something to bring a bit of unity to which ever path we head in.

I suspect it's so obvious that the very idea of it will be dismissed out of hand by politicians in the main.

For now anyway...

No election has ever been won by one vote in either Britain or France. I went through piles of documents in a university library to confirm that about 35 years ago and I don't think it's changed. A difference of three votes was the closest if I recall correctly.

So objectively the odds of your vote making a difference are tiny. However, in France I consider the ability to vote is a right I value and voting a duty, for me at least. Perhaps it's part of French culture where citizens' "droits et devoirs" are notions central to republican values. There's a feelng of being a part of a system rather than a pawn in it.

I travel on a French passport because if ever I get myself in a mess I have the utmost confidence in my fellow citizens from the local baker to President doing their utmost to help. Boris and the British ruling elite are more likely to get me deeper into trouble by telling the foreigners I'm a journalist (and therefore probably a spy) or simply leaving me to rot unless Amnesty can do something.

Despite baing a British citizen with no criminal record I have no vote. The Brexiters have also been doing their level best to wipe out my ability to claim a UK pension based on al the contribution I've made in Europe should I ever choose to retire in England (unlikely :wink:). Real issues that concern me directly and I have no vote.

And that's a broad church.

PS good joke

Fair point cougar. Its a nastier tone to me tho than the rest of his sneering unless he has changed his tune or got worse on other threads. He sneers at the scots as a people. He did get banned for racist posts relating to scots

Ninfan - from the scots referendum debate and from people quoting his posts

Thanks Mefty. I made my case for remaining here regularly.

Cougar - I do try to keep up with your example. But you set a high standard

Nice lies TJ. I am a Scotophile. Always have been that's why I am anti those who like to inflict self harm on such a wonderful country on the basis of lies and deceipt. Giving a model for the Brexshiteers to follow.

That's not to mention those English who go up there and own multiple properties which pushes people on to the street homeless while pretending to be Scottish

you re a scotophile in much the same way Trump would claim he is one

Cougar - I do try to keep up with your example. But you set a high standard

QED.

THM sneers at everyone who doesn't agree with him. And that's a broad church

Well do something about it then, Cougar. Ban me while you're at it, there's some painting I need to get on with. But do something because if you don't this place is going the way of BM. A few navel gazing anti-social arses that are so unpleasant no-one else sticks around or more to the point, no new blood joins in with the ****s.

that's why I am anti those who like to inflict self harm in such a wonderful country.

Remind us again how brexit benefits Scotland?

They get to leave the EU

Nice lies TJ. [u]I am a Scotophile.[/u]

***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

http://www.commercialmotor.com/news/product/vauxhalls-ellesmere-port-factory-risk-closure-2019

sorry for changing the topic from racism and scotland.

Who would have thought a car plant was at risk of closure.

Well do something about it then, Cougar.

I can't ban someone for having contentious views. Well, I could, but it'd make me a monumental hypocrite so I'm not going to do that.

I can ban someone for breaching the T&Cs, but there's an element of society who are so very, very talented at walking the line.

#fakenews #projectfear they are just cynically using it to milk the government for cash etc.
Anyway job losses will be worth it

mrmo - one of the things I pointed out early on in this thread along with many other people. Car plants will be in big trouble because so many parts criss cross the uk border and the UK has the weakest worker protection laws so closing the plant comes at little cost

Cougar - from the sticky post.

The ethos of this forum must be one of mutual respect for everyone who uses it. You may argue and debate with anyone but when the argument becomes heated or abuse begins to creep in, then you will have crossed the line. If you don't step back from it then you will likely be moderated.

Respect for everyone is paramount. If we see evidence or have good reason to believe that you are looking to get a rise or to deliberately force a reaction from any other users (Trolling) then we will stop you.

Now I know I am on thin ice and sometimes get too close to the line but THM calling me a liar repeatedly?

and I also know questioning the moderators decisions puts more cracks in my ice. I'll be too busy to post much the next few days anyway

A few navel gazing anti-social arses that are so unpleasant no-one else sticks around or more to the point, no new blood joins in with the ****.

That would be this thread.

Go and have a look at the rest of the forum. It's really rather good. I recommend it.

Or, just go out for a walk, read a book. Whatever.

there's an element of society who are so very, very talented at walking the line.

they work most of the time but not all the time as the line walkers demonstrate

They are just constantly negatively using the forum,if they were not they would not be using it

So time to move on, Monday morning is rolling across the world.
There are still plenty of issues to deal with that are serious and difficult.
Car plants seem to be high on the list now, perhaps the UK government will have their handy guide and assessment doc to refer to.

Cougar - from the sticky post.

TBH, I expect there will be a number of bans just before Christmas just so that we get some time off. Sorry, TJ (-:

rules are guides not absolutes

Oh, sure, and I've discussed this at length. Moderation is subjective. Which is a blessing and a curse.

Forum rules:

If your posts are persistently argumentative we will consider that a negative use of our forum.
If you resort to abuse of other forum users we will consider that a negative use of our forum.
If you post irrelevant posts to the topic in discussion we will consider this negative use of the forum.
If in our opinion your contributions to the forum are predominantly off topic we will consider this negative use of the forum.

THM said:

I am democratic remainer not a leaver.

And his posts would bear that out.

I too am a democratic remainer not a leaver.

I just question whether democracy ended on 24th June 2016 following the vote of the night before.

I accept THM and I have slightly different views. Actually I’m probably the holder of a more paternalistic view than he is in some ways - I believe our representatives are meant to act in our interests not do what we tell them. I accept there is a we know best attitude there, but when I employ a lawyer I expect them to act in my interests and if I’m going to do something stupid legally, tell me and have no part in helping me (do something stupid). I expect the same when I employ a professional representative at Westminster (oh go on someone will claim I don’t). I also know when I am employed as a professional electrical engineer and a client was to do something stupid I don’t get to help them without leaving myself open for all sorts of negligence discussions.

Or in other words the will of the people argument is cobblers, not because people are thick, but because it is not their area of expertise. I have a man to do that for me (albeit an imbecile called Sturdy - you should try getting a decent response from a letter from him).

I also believe people grow, learn, change - even if the will of the people were valid, it’s not static.

So in short, the government are expected to get the best deal for the UK’s people (remembering that many of them are “just about managing” and leaving the EU won’t help that) - anything else is a dereliction of duty.

(This rant brought to you by Apple predictive text)

Or, just go out for a walk, read a book. Whatever.

We don't agree on a lot, CFH, but you're absolutely right. See the nice pics on the Ski thread... . 8)

I also know questioning the moderators decisions puts more cracks in my ice.

Maybe in the old world and perhaps still "officially," but personally I welcome it. If I'm not being questioned then I've no idea whether I'm making good decisions or not. I've said from the outset, the one thing I wanted to bring to the table when I was appointed was transparency and honesty (ok, two things). If I'm doing a shit job I'd really want to know. Quiet at the back.

The issue here I think comes when we get drawn into an argument about our decisions. And the potential here is high. I decided to be "out" precisely because I figured (hoped) that I had the fortitude to step back and not get drawn into that. I'm happy to field questions, but will step back from dummy-spitting and trolling.

I believe our representatives are meant to act in our interests not do what we tell them.
...
Or in other words the will of the people argument is cobblers, not because people are thick, but because it is not their area of expertise.

Bingo.

As someone who thinks Scotland can and should be independent I welcome every sneer and pejorative term Thm uses to post about people like me.

Otherwise I can only suggest people ignore what I see as trolling (edit)

I believe our representatives are meant to act in our interests not do what we tell them.

And they overwhelmingly voted for us to give notice under Article 50, that put continued membership of EU out of our hands alone.

they did that because of our vote/ref not because of the bit you quoted ; that posts makes no sense.

Cougar - Moderator

TBH, I expect there will be a number of bans just before Christmas just so that we get some time off. Sorry, TJ (-:

will I get a Christmas card with my ban?

hey did that because of our vote/ref not because of the bit you quoted

And a large influx of money from the likes of Aaron Banks.

they did that because of our vote/ref not because of the bit you quoted ; that posts makes no sense.

Because they recognized that there are circumstances where the expressed will has to be followed whatever their personal views. I think IGM's use of paternalistic would be more precise if he said Burkean, after Edmund Burke but I may have misunderstood.

there are circumstances where the expressed will has to be followed

What circumstances are those?

Because they recognized that there are circumstances where the expressed will has to be followed whatever their personal views.

And so the farce continues. Irish Government very angry ( as I predicted) with Davis
"David Davis has clashed with the Irish government after claiming that the Brexit divorce agreement between Britain and the EU was a “statement of intent” rather than something legally enforceable.

................
Theresa May also appeared to suggest there was still some flexibility in the deal reached at the end of last week, writing to all Tory MPs – in a letter seen by the Guardian – to set out the details of the agreement but promising that “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”.

In a statement issued after Davis had made his remarks to the BBC, the Irish government warned: “Both Ireland and the EU will be holding the UK to the phase one agreement.”

He really is a dimwit

Perhaps our government had their fingers crossed behind their back when they signed?

Mefty - I think on balance paternalistic is what I meant, acting in the interests of the child not necessarily in line with their express wishes.
And for some reason at bed time this is a good quality, but with regard to politics bad. 😉
Remember I am generally against referendums in the first place though - why ask when you shouldn’t follow the answer?

IGM good poInts other than - as mefty pointed out - we have had both a referendum and a parliamentary vote. One was more definitive that the other (!) but the results were the same. So not sure where your argument goes other than accepting where we are and making the best of it.

So not sure where your argument goes other than accepting where we are and making the best of it.

One can change one’s mind THM.

Yes we had both referendum and parliamentary votes. Both in the past. The parliamentary vote was dereliction of duty / abdication meekly doing what they know not to be in the majority of constituents interests, but they can change their minds.

And should.

That is all.

Not sure the government has denied the scale of the task ahead - leaving a few nutters aside - and their course of action to deliver a FTA that is tailored to our specific needs seems to me to be a very sensible approach in minimising risks.

- and their course of action to deliver a FTA that is tailored to our specific needs seems to me to

Sorry THM but that is where it is, light on the specifics, light on the aims, light on any kind of detail. There are ways to get people onside, keeping them in the dark is not one of them.

How can we have more detail?* We haven’t started the negotiations on the nature of the FTA yet. That has been my point all along.

* we know the pros and cons of the existing arrangements. But we don’t know what form out future access to the SM will take. We need to get on with determining that and stop all the BS that has prevented it so far. We have spent far too much time looking in the past - time to deal with the future. Fortunately we are getting there and trade will be on the table

we know the pros and cons of the existing arrangements. But we don’t know what form out future access to the SM will take.

We have spent far too much time looking in the past - time to deal with the future.

Well at least this thread is drifting back to the impact of Brexit, car plants, ports, retail and the quiet march of robotics added to a £ that's worth zip that continues to drive up the cost of living even before WTO arrives.

It's the simple stuff that bites the most- fuel and food and (proper) job loss, full employment is bollocks if it's all minimum wage. This why the Tories will not win the next election as Brexit will make the lives of the poor people who voted for it worse - they voted for Jam today not 10 years down the line, there are large groups of society that want the good old days of the late 60s and early 70s (As passed down as oral history from generation to generation) The Brexit vote was and is at all levels a backlash against our current world and the EU happened to be the scapegoat for all their woes.

We can collectively argue the semantics/detail but the reality is regardless of your political views that Brexit is a desperate bid to re establish a world that no longer exists outside the minds eye of the rabid right and a lot of very poor people.

Mike - the material has been there all along. I must have posted one version 20x by now including last week. And the response? Can’t be bothered to read it....

Read plenty of it, we were told of industry impact statements etc, oops dog ate those.
All the time people like the foreign sec are allowed to go off message - how can that be allowed, he needs putting back in his box.
Public opinion is (an overwhelming majority if we take the result of the referendum as standard) backing remain
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-after-the-referendum/
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/
So the government is failing to take people along with them, perhaps it's the impacts on currency and prices that they are feeling or the job losses or nursing shortages.
Not sure any politician has stood up and said it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Added/Edit
If you truly think May is doing a great job at this and will pluck out a deal that will satisfy people and be good for the country (or as some promised better than we currently have) then you should have no problem with the people being able to reject or accept it with the third choice being to remain is the deal doesn't get a majority.

Quite the contrary. Our side said it would get considerably worse but the vote still went the other way. Since then, the econ has performed better than feared

So are you confident to let the people decide if the deal is up to it?

If they want to reject any deal in favour of WTO so be it. The vote will not be to go back to where we were. That decision has been made.

I would prefer we focus on getting a good deal. Tough as it is without all the background noise.

Because they recognized that there are circumstances where the expressed will has to be followed whatever their personal views.

I believe our representatives are meant to act in our interests not do what we tell them.

If the want to reject any deal in favour of WTO so be it.

The public won't like it but the only way to convince them to take it is to remove the lets stop and be sensible option. Because what happened on one day must be the only democratic option.

The vote will not be to go back to where we were. That decision has been made.

Assertion.

No fact 😉

Anyway we shall see

Well plenty of folk disagree with you, and from the EU side a reversal because being outside is rubbish would play well.

I doubt we will see though because the current shower of incompetents in power will not give us the option - they’d never hold the Tory party together if they did.

Not fact, all things can be reversed, all things can be changed it just takes a will.

When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard.

The EU learned that lesson in past month when we suggested that HB was being planned for!

Is that why they got what they wanted?

They come cheap 😉 then

50% pre Xmas sale!!

teamhurtmore - Member
The EU learned that lesson in past month when we suggested that HB was being planned for!

They’re learning it again from the Right Dishonourable DD today as well.

THM maths - 50% of £40bn is £39bn

(Wait a minute, did you think the £100bn was anything other than a line thrown to the Brextremists to make them think they’d beaten the EU down did you? 😉 )

No from EU documents after Fr and Germany made stricter demands in the May

FT covered the story and several independent bodies calculated what his meant. Not the Brexshiteers

What the Germans were really expecting:

http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2017-11/brexit-grossbritannien-kosten-zahlungen-eu

57bn possibly minus the rebate so about 40bn. A figure of 40-45bn has been on French media recently along with on-going payments and payments for the trnasition period.

THM - my own understanding was £40-55bn, so it’s at the low end by the looks of it. I will freely admit I don’t see every document written and I have a habit of dismissing ones I regard as posturing, negotiation stances or just plain silly.
So if they came out with a higher figure fair enough, but £39bn looks pretty much in line my expectations.

Of course it may not be £39bn when it comes to it, but...

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/10/david-davis-clashes-with-ireland-over-brexit-deal ]David Davis is playing a blinder this week, isn't he?[/url]

What a ****ing clown!

Always read the small print. The Irish agreed to both drafts so they knew what was there.

Did the Guardian not bother?

IGM frankly it doesn’t matter. None of this is set in stone. We had a fudge/compromise last week that allows everyone to move on to next phase. No one thought it was all settled did they?

Nick Ferrari of all people calling out Davis as a liar on LBC.
Im not sure if the befuddled old man thing is an act or it's all just taking its toll on him !

Trying to deny that he was being misquoted, by himself?

I reckon it’s a bet. BoJo, Davis and Williamson are seeing who can do the most outrageous thing and not get fired

I see Davis is backtracking on the statement of intent. A statement of intent is now “more than legally enforceable”.
According to Davis anyway.

I often misquote myself. It's an easy mistake to make. Then I usually issue a statement quoting the misquote of my misquote, thus clearing everything up

Getting on to more important issues: what are the latest economic figures available, and what are they telling us?

And what are peoples feelings generally about the way the economy is going? Purely anecdotally: I'm in an industry that normally feels it first when things start to get tight. I think things are slowing down markedly. This time of year is usually mad busy, but not this year. The contrast to last year is huge. Its dead on its arse, to be honest. And that's the general consensus from a lot of people I'm talking too.

I'm starting to get really concerned about what the new year will hold. Nothing good, that's for bloody sure!

EU now confirming that joint Brexshit report is not legally binding

Amazing how much noise there is on every aspect - deliberately so?!?

Glad they (the EU) had read the small print!

Yes, you are making a lot of noise. Take a break. I'll join you…

Well the EU statement is important given all the DD comments ^ and elsewhere (but only if facts are of importance, clearly)