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Did you read the text TMH, surely you did. Its been agreed we will respect the Framework (“budget”) till Dec 2020 as if we where a member. This includes commitments that will go beyond 2020 like pensions and loans. It also says explicitly we will only pay towards projects which are funded by all 28 - so no stitch ups
Anyway personally hoping the deal gets voted down in Parliament and we default to WTO.
But if that were to happen wouldn't the EU demand a hard NI border? What then?
TJ we have agreed to pay up until 2020 on the basis we effectively remain a member of the EU
The EU wanted an even larger amount unfront including relocation costs for agencies and in return for nothing, no transition period etc.
Anyway its a mistake to have agreed this. Hopefully it will fall apart.
No no no let me finish, you're entirely right THM
True. Well done.
But appreciate that it must be tough being a remoaner today. An incompetent PM supported by no one of intelligence ends up proving you AND the nutters wrong.
TM of all people 😀 T blloody M 😀
yes thats right Jamba - we have conceded everything the EU asked for bar the relocation expenses
And it is not limited to 2020. Its all commitments entered into in that time as well and ongoing payments beyond this
Being a fully paid up tory she would wouldn't she
Odd that everyone who proves you wrong is a fully paid up Tory. With so many, how did they screw up the last election?
But easy to see why you might think that given that she needed protection from Labour bullies this year
With the border agreement hasn't the UK effectively agreed to stay in the Customs Union regardless of what happens?
Or is the plan to stay in the Customs Union until the DUP are no longer relevant and then move the border to the Irish Sea?
Bruce - I doubt they have been thinking that far but yes - regulatory alignment across the whole of the UK has been promised and that is the effect.
Sad day in some ways, good in others.
Good because it makes the ridiculous situation of hard Brexit less likely.
Sad because it makes soft Brexit more likely.
Given the choice between hard Brexit (yes I know “certain people” on here refute the existence of hard Brexit) and remaining, the UK (parliament, population or even government) would chose to remain.
But soft Brexit or remain? Less clear cut.
Still, the deal done today leaves the possibility of the four freedoms being up held. Only a Brexy wouldn’t want to see freedom upheld.
Time for this yet again, basically its the High scenario in return for 2 more years single market full tariff free access
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mefty / TMH perhaps you can tell me why the agreement draft shows £3.5bn coming back from EIB and not the higher figures shown above
Dominic Raab is on Newsnight, is he going to have a meltdown down over May's 'Red Lines' like he did on channel 4 earlier?
Watching the Brexiters pretend this is what they promised is most amusing !
Oh poor Raab
Jamba - the figure being talked about I haven’t seen broken down as per your picture but the Brextremist elements of the cabinet were talking about £35-39bn not £30bn, then you’re out by 16-30%.
Even on the high scenario.
I make no comment on whether that’s good or bad (though if you’re right it smacks of buying a deal - is that desperate?)
Remember these hazy days of err the month b4 last....
https://news.sky.com/story/david-davis-says-40bn-brexit-divorce-bill-claim-is-made-up-11051014
I suppose we know why David Davis didn't bother with the impact assessments
Thanks to continued full regulatory alignment we're not really going to leave....
The jurisdiction of the ECJ is a red line in the talks, with Mrs May insistent it will have no rule in enforcing the rights of EU citizens in Britain post-Brexit.
Adds to list of her successes for THM to get excited about
The thing is, THM sees May & co being dragged towards the reality of what we need to do, to form a close relationship with the rest of Europe, as a success… because ultimately he's a Remoaner… and knows getting a new deal is about limiting the damage caused by Leaving. The real Brexit backers don't think this way… they'll see her sensible moves as capitulation… by this time next year, she'll be the one fending of toxic calls of "traitor", if she keeps moving towards a true close relationship, and all that enables that. One of the (many) reasons I'm glad Jamba is back on this thread… he gives useful insight into how a certain Brexit backer thinks… useful and interesing. Wish some of those who back a very different Brexit would also come back and comment on how things are going now, and on where they view us heading.
I suppose we know why David Davis didn't bother with the impact assessmentsThanks to continued full regulatory alignment we're not really going to leave....
As much as it pains me to to say this, it might have been a smart move not to bother, the (propably millions of) hours of consultation and fact checking across all industries it would have taken to produce reports that actually meant anything.. that would come out of the public purse.
The cost of doing proper thorough impact studies, well I wouldn't dare to guess what they would amount to.
mefty / TMH perhaps you can tell me why the agreement draft shows £3.5bn coming back from EIB and not the higher figures shown above
The £3 billion number is our share of capital, no idea where the £10 yards comes from.
Thanks to continued full regulatory alignment we're not really going to leave....
Certainly neither Barnier's nor our government's view as I posted a couple of pages back.
Politicians are indeed revered for their ability to tell the truth and never ever spin events to hoodwink or sell a view.
I don't think mefty is reading between the lines here, we are only leaving on paper. Some documents may have to be revised from v1 to v1.1
The UK will pay a big unesesary bill, and we won't get to sit at the captain's table or influence anything any more.
The meat and potatoes are still meat and potatoes.
Is there mass civil unrest on the city streets this evening from distraught brexopaths, after having a dip into the Farage / Banks twitter feeds I'm expecting the main UK centres of population to be smouldering ruins by morning (unless inconceivably they're just full of **** after all).
The only civil unrest seems to be confined the the comments sections on the mail and express websites. Along with calls for rees mog to become pm, and farridge to become leader of UKIP, even though nobody voted for him last time around.
oops (from the FT)
the deal, agreed in principle in July, covers a combined market of 600m people accounting for approximately 30 per cent of global gross domestic product. Brussels hailed it as a breakthrough for the bloc’s businesses, notably its farmers, saying it was “the most significant and far reaching deal ever concluded by the EU in agri-food trade”.
The timing of the announcement coincided with an agreement in Brussels on the UK’s exit terms from the EU. The anticipated date for the EU-Japan deal to take effect will roughly coincide with Britain’s official exit date from the bloc in March 2019.
Let's ask Greg!
Who the hell is Greg?
Here he is!
[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers/minister-of-state-for-trade-and-investment ]https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers/minister-of-state-for-trade-and-investment[/url]
The best thing to come out this is people are openly calling each other racist, ****s and thick ****s, well mainly via a keyboard. The veneer of politeness has gone. The turn a blind eye when you're on the winning side, smile through the bumming, surround me with agreeable people. it's glorious 😆
Can we just watch videos of dogs and/or cats playing, remembering simpler times! We will see a lot more of these morale boosting, take your mind off it stories in recent months.
Here you go:
[url= http://digg.com/video/dogs-in-pool ]Dogs For Those Moments When You Feel You Can't Cope[/url]
I see Sadiq is planning to commission his own impact assessments:
Well, this has been exciting. Are we not leaving after all?
The thing is, THM sees May & co being dragged towards the reality of what we need to do, to form a close relationship with the rest of Europe, as a success…
Not true. I see our government being part of a negotiation regarding our future access to the single market. I understand that this is difficult given that the starting points for both sides are irreconcilable. So I expect and understand why both sides will need to compromises. I have long believed that the result will require a lot of fudging, that is how EU does things. Their alternative modus operandi is to crap on fellow members from a great height. Hence you need to be robust in dealing with them. It’s like dealing with any bully. See ^.
But yes. They have succeeded in getting (finally) to the correct starting point so I welcome that first and foremost. From here we can determine the rest...
because ultimately he's a Remoaner…
Remainer BUT also a Democrat - therefore cannot be a remoaner 😉
and knows getting a new deal is about limiting the damage caused by Leaving.
That is true (largely) but would add reducing uncertainty so we can focus on getting on with life and business
Writing in the Daily Telegraph, Gove said: “The British people will be in control. If the British people dislike the agreement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge.”He said that after a transition period, the UK would have “full freedom to diverge from EU law on the single market and customs union”.
So the deluded are still deluded.
Change the deal, lose all international credibility and also lose any trade deal
Numpty
Remainer BUT also a Democrat - therefore cannot be a remoaner
So you're fine with a second referendum then?
lol democracy is a moment in time that must be cherished and supported regardless of anything that happens after
It is clear where we are going. We will leave the EU but will still be paying for the same things we already get by being in the EU and a layman would have trouble spotting the difference.
A complete waste of 5 years and a lot of money lost.
As always, not for everybody.
I am sure some grown ups are making a fortune out of it.
The brexiteers are already getting the first kicks into this. They've realised now that leaving means sorting out the border issue. Gove is telling them they can vote for him next election and Johnson paying back handed compliments to May about looking forward to taking back full control.
If round one was ugly, round two is going to murderous
I have some sympathy with leavers but would rather on balance we didn't.
However it seems the division within the nation is causing the most harm and what we can all be in agreement about is incompetence of this self serving goverment.
I actually found myself listening to B lair the other day thinking he could be a better option.
I'm assuming this hasn't healed the tory party.
Just goes to show that there is a price for bigotry and hatred.
We are the ones paying though.
Im loving the brexies on Twitter ranting that they've been betrayed by treasonous remainer May.
The problem is that when Johnson told them that the EU could go whistle for a divorce bill, or Mogg said that we didn't need a transition or Gove said we could ignore the ECJ that May's redlines were actually redlines.... They believed them.
one day even they will realise the brexit bunch were just a bunch of lying bastards promising the impossible
Mail and Express trumpeting the 'success' this morning which is interesting in itself. I wonder how long that will last.
Somehow this seems relevant
I have long believed that the result will require a lot of fudging, that is how EU does things.
Is it not the UK that is asking for everything to be fudged? Are not all participants in the single market and/or customs union, that are not EU members, benefiting from "a fudge"? Will not any new deal that gives us "the benefits of" SM&CU be a fudge? We don't want membership, we want to hold on to the benefits of it… we want a fudge.
But again, that fudge will not look like any of the possible contradictiary futures suggested by those wanting us to Leave, so, again, give "the people" a choice between the new "fudged" relationship and membership of the EU. If more people like the new "actual" relationship… happy days. The alternative is forcing the deal on the public, even if they disapprove of it.
lol @ drj 🙂
Place de la Concorde now:
https://www.viewsurf.com/univers/ville/vue/10374-france-ile-de-france-paris-place-de-la-concorde
If you can get TF1 turn on now.
Kelvin the people voted to [b]end membership of the EU[/b]. Period. We know what that entails.
The government is now simply negotiating the terms of our future access to the SM and vice versa. We know that this will involve compromise on both sides - unless you are a 99% incorrect and inflexible remoaner, in which case it can’t happen at all.
So it’s not as you suggest. The fudge is simply a balance between various pros and cons of the four basic choices. We know what this involves or should do. We need to max the pros and min the cons.
So if there is a final vote it will not be about membership. It will be on the deal or no deal. If people reject the deal then it’s WTO not the status quo.
Mail and Express trumpeting the 'success' this morning which is interesting in itself. I wonder how long that will last.
“Rejoice we’re on our way”
Err they really are on another planet.
I still can’t figure out what I personally will be able to do once we’ve left.
It is us asking for a fudge… we want to stop being members yet retain the benefits of membership, and if, as a country, we don't like the fudge on offer, but are denied a chance to choose to retain membership, then that looks like a big " **** you " to democracy if you ask me. Offering a choice between no deal and a bad deal is no choice, if "the people" view retaining membership as preferable to either.
We know what that entails.
You can keep saying that as often as you want, but nothing about the referendum result indicates what will/should replace membership. Choice between a new relationship, and membership, has not been made. I remember DD saying that this was exactly what the referendum question should be … choosing between membership, and "a" replacement, not between membership and "any" replacement (possible or otherwise). It's rare, but a I agree with that DD.
DrJ - Member
Somehow this seems relevant
It’s a good job there were a lot of clever grown ups behind the scenes making sure there was a good outcome to this. It’s a brilliant success story and he should be applauded for having the resilience to not die.
It was the will of that person to stick his head in that microwave and anyone suggesting it was a ****ing stupid idea is an enemy of free choice and democracy.
Not really it’s simply the second round and another choice. We had the first round/choice about membership. We lost it remember? The second round is simply do we prefer whatever deal is negotiated or no deal.
Rather than “*** you”. to democracy, it’s democracy ^2. Non democrats will eventually get their heads round this
Membership is gone. We are not having a rerun of round one.
*applause*
( for jambo)
that really puts it in context
teamhurtmore - Member
Kelvin the people voted to end membership of the EU. Period. We know what that entails
Only in the tory wet dream. We have 100 different ideas on what leave means, the only clear and certain option was remaining as that was actually defined.
If you want to play the fool then continue to extrapolate from a single data point
Playing the fool is pretending you don’t know what was involved. Either directly or indirectly.
We had a vote on membership. Yes or no? We lost. No/ leave won. That you can’t get over this is your choice. Living in the past is the foolish bit, especially when that involves out bullshitting the Brexshiteers. See ^ over 000s of pages of wild exaggeration and false claims
2016 is the past. 2018 will (hopefully) reveal a real replacement for membership. If "the people" prefer to retain membership, they should be offered that option, not have a deal, or no deal, forced upon them from on high.
So leave was a definite and defined option? Didn't see that on the ballot paper.
Leave is a messy and screwed up set of choices that are mostly incompatible with the leave promises. Politically this is going to be a mess. Your idea of closing your first one of a million scenarios is madness. Time to think rationally thm
"Membership is gone. We are not having a rerun of round one." So democracy in your world is the people of the future cannot be given a free choice but are bound by the decisions of the people of the past?
I've never seen so many talented people regrouped in one place as today.
We had a vote on membership. Yes or no? We lost. No/ leave won. That you can’t get over this is your choice. Living in the past is the foolish bit.
Not knowing what was won is the foolish bit. It’s starting to look a lot like a white elephant.
There's good and coherent arguments you can make for brexit, now. But "We knew what we were voting for" never has been, and never less so than today.
Not knowing what was won is the foolish bit. It’s starting to look a lot like a white elephant.
Red,white and blue strong and stable elephant.
We didnt win anything, just managed to keep ourselves at the table for some more negotiations.
(Otherwise Gove,May,Davies and Bojo would be all sat around a table shittin themselves.)
There’s 27 to be appeased till endgame.
One good thing about all this kicking of cans down the road for me is that I will be retired if / when we finally leave - so can move to the mainland of europe to keep my EU citizenship before the UK leaves
NW if you chose not to understand - as in the Indy debate - then that is your prerogative. To suggest that other people didn’t is merely ( what’s the STW favourite?) patronising and condescending.
It is true that there was only one certainty ie what membership involves including costs and benefits. On the certainty, the democratic process delivered a “no thank you”. People voted against what they knew. That you guys want to deny those people their right is rather sad. The tactics are more than that - they are shameful.
It’s also total BS to argue that we don’t know what is ahead. We know exactly what the range of alternative options for retaining access to the SM are and we also know that the UK is rejecting the idea of accepting an existing off the shelf option but to negotiate a unique free trade agreement.
That undemocratic remoaners have to muddle/ignore and distort this in order to deny voters their right is the bit that shames us
One good thing about all this kicking of cans down the road for me is tat I will be retired if / when we fnally leave - so can move to the mainland of europe to keep my EU citizenship before the UK leaves
Same here probably a bit earlier than I planned.
I’m just annoyed that the politicians just played(are playing) the people on this and fiddling when Rome burns.
I retire in 2021 so hopefully I will be able to move to the netherlands then and gain netherlands residence rights. I have family there.
Bingo.People voted against what they knew.
Bullshit.It’s also total BS to argue that we don’t know what is ahead.
It is true that there was only one certainty ie what membership involves including costs and benefits.
That is easy just add the link or text that defined that and get two leavers to agree to it.
A million people standing around quietly clapping and tapping their feet when they hear a familar tune.
Time to dry our eyes and move on now.
It’s also total BS to argue that we don’t know what is ahead. We know exactly what the range of alternative options for retaining access to the SM are and we also know that the UK is rejecting the idea of accepting an existing off the shelf option but to negotiate a unique free trade agreement.
Well we don’t know what Spain wants to do with Gibraltar so the options may be on the table but if U.K. can’t palate the deal finally offered.(May be wild speculation but a right to veto is a right to veto).
We’re not out of the wood yet plenty more opportunity for mischief and mayhem,unless of course it’s all been stitched up behind the scenes already so a bit more circus and last minute final hour settlement for the masses.
That undemocratic remoaners have to muddle/ignore and distort this in order to deny voters their right is the bit that shames us
THM really is quite terrified, for whatever reason, that brexit might not happen. Only someone who has nothing to lose could persist in the faux outrage that is 'deny voters their right'. I doubt THM even understands the concept of a 'right'.
Nah, thm has a couple of buttons that he knows how/when to press.
Some people he can play like a fiddle...
Just remember who pays the piper.
Adieu Johnny.
THM really is quite terrified, for whatever reason, that brexit might not happen.
Nope
Only someone who has nothing to lose could persist in the faux outrage that is 'deny voters their right'.
Nope ^2
I doubt THM even understands the concept of a 'right'.
That would be displaying ignorance on your side not mine , so that’s your choice entirely. You decide.
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😀 that doesn't even mean anything.That would be displaying ignorance on your side not mine , so that’s your choice entirely. You decide.
Please explain your understanding of the concept of a 'right' in the context of the 'voters'.
We’re not out of the wood yet plenty more opportunity for mischief and mayhem
Unusually refreshing honesty there dude!
So democracy in your world is the people of the future cannot be given a free choice but are bound by the decisions of the people of the past?
Yep, we had a referendum about remaining in the EEC, after being taken in by the politicians without asking us first, and agreed to do so. We abided by that and remained bound by it until the EEC no longer existed.
We were then taken in to the EC, by the politicians, without asking us first, and remained bound by that until the EC no longer existed
We were then taken into the EU, by the politicians, without asking us first (and despite an election manifesto pledge to hold a referendum before accepting the European constitution) and, in just the same way as with the EEC, we then held a referendum about remaining in it, and will once again remain bound by that decision of the people, hopefully till the EU no longer exists.
What you can see is an entirely consistent trait, we remain bound by decisions of the people, but not necessarily bound by decisions of the politicians. Surely that’s how a democracy should work?
Given the leave vote demographic kicking the problem down the road is unlikely to get the outcome they want.
Theres only three choices: a) leave and get borders and tariffs. b) dont leave and get neither. c) pay a load of money to pretend to leave but dont.
We have chosen C, which seem's madder than either of the other options.
teamhurtmore - MemberNW if you chose not to understand - as in the Indy debate - then that is your prerogative. To suggest that other people didn’t is merely ( what’s the STW favourite?) patronising and condescending.
Beyond parody...
Democracy requires an informed electorate. When th majority of the media has run a 20+ year campaign against the EU for there non UK owners own political ends then we do not have a functioning democracy.
its as simple as that
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tjagain - Member
The sketch shows two things.
1. A dignified PM May.
2. The act of a lesser man/person raiding another handbag.
Take you pick. 😆
Edukator - Reformed Troll
Another sketch with double meanings.
1. The British PM trying to compete with one hand.
2. The bully thinking he has upper hand. He thinks he won hand down.
Take you pick. 😆