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You could have alignment if you had equivalence which is the test often used in trade deals.
I'm now reappraising the whole situation
Theresa May is actually the most devastatingly effective and cunning politician this country has ever seen.
She campaigned for remain, but once the vote was lost, she set about accidentally becoming prime minister, then she appointed the 3 biggest vainglorious clowns imaginable to sort out the details of Brexit.
She tried her damnedest to get her party booted out before they could do too much damage, by running the worst campaign anyone had ever seen. But she didn't bank on the labour party and Jeremy Corbyn. So despite her best efforts it was on to plan B... letting the Brexiteers just get on with it
Fast forward to now, as her deliberately contradictory shambles leads to the abandonment of the last of the laughable red lines
So... we're staying in the single market, staying in the customs union (but we'll refer to that as something else), which will involve paying into the EU budget and retaining freedom of movement
Theresa... we salute you! 😀
Thanks mattjg.
So hypothetically, we would go to the EU and ask "can we apply these regulations which are mutually agreed?" to which the answer could feasibly be "No, you need to revise the regs to meet a minimum standard", thus the stronger partner in the relationship gets to dictate the rules?
That would explain the caveat about this being applicable only in event of a trade deal being agreed.
[edit] Thanks also mefty for the nicely summed up sentence.
Like ... our bananas have the same bend as their bananas but they measure in degrees but we use radians?
thus the stronger partner in the relationship gets to dictate the rules?
there is no partnership. they set the rules we comply.
retaining freedom of movement
Good, retention of my FOM, & especially for my kids, is my red line.
Theresa May is actually the most devastatingly effective and cunning politician this country has ever seen.
Haha!
I can't help but feel that we missed an opportunity of a lifetime by not electing Lord Buckethead.
there is no partnership. they set the rules we comply.
Kind of where I was going with this...
...now, sooner or later someone will have the radical idea that if we become a member state of this trading bloc, we can influence the rules from within, no?
...now, sooner or later someone will have the radical idea that if we become a member state of this trading bloc, we can influence the rules from within, no?
yes but that requires the other members of the bloc to give up a bit of their precious "sovrintee".
obviously that would never happen, the nation state is king!
[i]if we become a member state of this trading bloc, we can influence the rules from within, no? [/i]
Who would let us join after how we've behaved this time?
but we're already in it!
phew that's OK then, nothing to see here.
there is no partnership. they set the rules we comply.
Not how equivalence works. Barnier when the boot was on the other foot:
Where the rules of another country are comparable and consistent with the objectives of US law, it is reasonable to expect US authorities to rely on those rules and recognise activities regulated under them as compliant.”
Mefty - two similar sized economies talking. Not like the EU and UK.
They will set the rules. We’ll follow. Of course in theory this won’t happen. In practice it will.
In some sectors (electric vehicles for example) there is s lots of concern that is already starting to happen (regardless of us having a couple of car plants).
They agreed the same with Canada
Thx Mefty.
Presumably that means the complier playing tag-along, and continual equivalence testing?
Ultimately the complier has to have the same outcome to any tests, no?
So there would need to be a supranational court of law to arbitrate?
It won’t happen in reality.
Q- Whats the difference between the Tories negotiating Brexit and a piece of paper?
A- theres a limit to the number of times that a piece of paper will fold
So there would need to be a supranational court of law to arbitrate?
Dispute resolution will be part of any agreement, but the WTO plays an extensive role in trade dispute resolution. My impression is that you look at whether the regime achieves the agreed end result or purpose - this is also how EU directives work - there may be different ways of achieving that result so it isn't automatic that you have like for like regulation.
One piece of serious but (very) blue sky thinking that was put forward to get around the customs union mess is if the UK contracted with the EU to run the EU border on its behalf. So goods continue to enter the EU at Harwich, Southampton, Heathrow etc. and the new "international" borders at Dover, Fishguard, NI etc. are treated as if they were intra EU.
If the UK adopted the same customs tariff as the EU - and there is no reason why it wouldn't, it would mean business as usual, as far as Customs borders are concerned.
It would all hang on the will of UK and EU politicians to try and make sense of this mess though.
But that only covers tariffs - what about non-tariff restrictions such as the UK accepting disinfected chicken and the EU not?
I don't know about disinfected chickens, but I was watching the head of DEFRA (or the head of the bit that deals with plant and animal health) in front of the Select Committee stating they had no plans to change the way they handled any imports of plants or animals.
He had no control over how other countries chose to treat our exports of plants and animals though.
I think the theory is the UK's rules are not the same as the EU's but the outcome is, where necessary.
Essentially like Like BS, EN and CE approval then? In most cases products are cross compliant.
It would, I think, be useful to have some examples of where regulatory alignment versus regulatory non-divergence actually makes a practical difference to someone, say in respect of agriculture and food.
Are you going back to impérial ?
Not really, politicians are concerned about the perception of the deal as much as the detail, the press were reporting that the DUP had been sold out and that perception is clearly unacceptable to them. Everyone will grandstand for a few days to prove they can't be pushed around, talks will hang by a thread, and then an agreement will be reached.
Yes but why settle for a black instant when you can have a full fat frothy double shot latte?
A THM question that I can find a straight answer to; I much perfer black instant, it tastes of coffee rather than an industrial milk derivative.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/05/under-fire-from-both-sides-david-davis-retreats-into-his-shell ]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/05/under-fire-from-both-sides-david-davis-retreats-into-his-shell[/url]
This is what our politics has become as a result of Brexit.
Desperate stuff.
[quote=cchris2lou ]Are you going back to impérial ?
I'm sure lots of Brexiteers would indeed like to go back to the days of the empire.
Davies latest bit of nonsense. Apparently the no regulatory divergence or whatever silly words he used would apply to the whole of the UK not just NI.
Now thats going to upset the Rabids because that means no lowering of standards thus no trade deal with the US amongst others.
He really is dim
Ahh Imperial I knew those BSW and AF spanners would come back into fashion.
I can start using terms like "a couple of thou" again...
Red herring - if we export to the EU markets we will have to match their standards what ever arrangement we trade under. Funny how a piece of Brexshit BS has now been hjqcked by remoaners
Do you ever sleep or is there a team of THMers monitoring this thread around the clock?
Six of us zippy !
We dip in between mewtings, when databases are updating or when travelling. Then share the fun 😉
Are you going back to impérial ?
They haven't gone away, you know?
[img] 
[/img]
Red herring - if we export to the EU markets we will have to match their standards what ever arrangement we trade under.
Red herring - this lovely fact has nothing to do with anything it could possibly have been a response to on this page.
Funny how a piece of Brexshit BS has now been hjqcked by remoaners
Twaddle. Nonsense. Troll muttering.
Because Angry People in Local Newspapers go a bit swivel-eyed when the council tries to use metric.
[img] 
?strip=all&w=960[/img]
[i]"Some people say kids are taught in metres — but kids don’t go down there. It’s just us golden oldies.
We’ve fought and won two world wars and finally won our referendum to come out of the European Union.
But now we are producing pathway signs in kilometres."[/i]
😀
(this is completely irrelevant to Brexit of course)
[b][i]"This Irish stuff"[/i][/b] - good old IDS.
The media & a lot of Brexit MPs trying to at best denigrate at worst villify Ireland at the moment, as if we needed more Brexit whipped up xenophobia !
this is completely irrelevant to Brexit of course
Apart from the reference to two world wars and a referendum. He seems to have forgotten one world cup. Daft old sod.
Wonder how much more May can take?
Utter humiliation again for her yesterday, arranging a 'working lunch' with Juncker
Only to have her announcement of a deal cancelled, flying back home to wrestle with Foster...
By the time the Brexiters discard her after the leaving date, she will be a hollowed out husk !
No doubt stressed her massively
But imagine if she pulls this off against all the odds ....
The media & a lot of Brexit MPs trying to at best denigrate at worst villify Ireland at the moment
Bally uppity colonials getting ideas above their station?!
what is there to pull off ?
If she pulls it off......
She'll still be a joke, the election, aligning with the DUP, triggering A50 too early, letting her MPs constantly undermine her, appointing Johnson, fox, davis, her little Englander 2016 conference speech , ridiculous red lines, and so many other own goals , she's made everything harder! brexit's the toughest of jobs for a skilled leader, let alone our worst PM since.... Cameron 😉
and then she's got to actually discuss trade, aren't these just the pre-pre negotiations !
As I said a hollowed-out husk
Her chances of puling it off? Pretty negligable unless you set a very low bar. Already half the time is gone and we don't even have agreements on the preconditions for negotiations - and that agreement is a fair distance away as the basic paradoxes still are there.
ECJ and Irish border.
The first ever successful exit from the EU. Never been tried before. Never even been contemplated. Imagine....
What sauce to serve with hats?
It's not a blimmin moonshot THM! 😆
I'm sure we will leave. "Successful" will be a [i]very[/i] subjective term though.
Define "successful".
Define successful.
Jumping out of a plane, even if you are wearing a parachute, does not constitute a successful parachute jump. The success is measured by how hard you hit the ground.
Never even been contemplated.
I think you will find it has. Its just only the UK where it went ahead (although depending on your definition you could include Greenland).
Imagine....
there is no heaven?
Or are you trying to say that with nothing to compare it against (minus Greenland sort of) she might be able to claim she has done well.
What sauce to serve with hats?
Dunno. What do you like with yours? Bearing in mind how confident you were yesterday of it all going swimmingly.
Given that nothing THM has claimed would happen has come to pass whereas everything I and the other remainers have said will happen has happened...................
how can it not be successful ?
if you determine success by actually leaving the EU , then it is pretty simple . no trade deal , pay whatever you owe and set up borders .
Given that nothing THM has claimed would happen has come to pass whereas everything I and the other remainers have said will happen has happened...................
That’s either very brave or very foolish to state given that you have been arguing that there will be no deal, that no one of intelligence has been involved, that there are no behind the scenes negotiations, that no progress can be made, that bankers are flooding out of the uK, that the economy was going into a 4% recession etc
0/6 and counting
Are you still using WoS as a source for this intelligence (sic) that is being posted?
That THM answering me again?
teamhurtmore - Memberteamhurtmore said something stupid.
I'll bet he is claiming I have said things that I haven't and that none of the scenarios such as flight of bankers, end of inward investment, massive shortfalls in EU nurses etc are actually happening? Despite the fact they are exactly as I predicted.
whereas everything I and the other remainers have said will happen has happened...................
Donald Tusk[i] "As a historian I fear Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also Western political civilisation in its entirety,"[/i]
I must have slept through that bit happening, was it on the news?
'Stupid' is the wrong word, can you change it to 'atagonistic'?
not skilled enough with computers. thats what I see tho when THM posts thanks to someones sanity saving killfile
So David Davies said exactly what I said earlier in the thread, “Regulatory Alignment” can mean many different things including quite a vague “in general” sort of thing. Claims that what May was speaking of in Florence.
IMO Ireland have been told to collect the €13bn due from Apple and which the EU is suing them for not collecting as a condition them having a say in Brexit at this early stage. At least they are collecting the money from Apple. Long overdue.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-42237312
triggering A50 too early
She left it as late as possible, any later runs into the May 2019 EU elections, would be bizarre to be electing MEPs and leaving the EU
so basically that word has no meaning , nothing concrete .
glad you cleared this up for us .
or we could just say that DD and co havent got a clue what they are trying to achieve .
Bollox Jamba - he may try to claim that in trying to be all things toall people knowing fully well he cannot even carry the whole tory party with him but it has a specific meaning.
He also lied when he said it would apply across the UK as the draft text specifically refers to NI
applying regulatory alignment across the UK is a absolute NO to the 50+ rabid leavers. Rees Mogg has already said as much IIRC
Long overdue.
Agreed.
But that's some mighty fine whataboutery.
Mash doing a good job here: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/im-your-prime-minister-now-20171205140394
Davis said “regulatory alignment” was something for the whole of the UK. But he did not address one of the specific problems with the draft text of the Brexit deal released yesterday; that, in the event of there being “no deal”, it would commit Northern Ireland to shadowing EU regulation while leaving the rest of the UK to go its own way.
From the Grauniad
Making it up as you go along Davies?
Rees Mogg has already said as much IIRC
At some point, no matter what the deal, she'll need support from across the floor to get it past these people.
Of course, they now think that they can force a no deal exit… and her actions, her words, and her government's bills, have enabled that.
TJ (and Chris) “making it up as they go along” like I said exactly the same as “sufficient progress” - both deliberately vague. The EU are masters at vague stuff
@kimbers May made a mistake, DUP spot on in killing it. She should have got it cleared with them in advance just as EU did with Ireland.
Getting better TJ that looks like 1/3 which brings it up to 1/9. Progress.
Still a $1 billion inward investment this week into UK pharma (despite all the BMA BS) probably doesn’t count as it’s so small.
With ends like this who needs starts?
Jambas mate you have a lot of catching up to do. These guys are brilliant 😉 and leaving you way behind!!
DUP spot on in killing it.
Wow.
Jambas - she will probably get away with regulatory equivalence so that’s 2/3 done. How long before trade talks?
Jamba - the draft text made specific reference to NI
Davies has now said it applies across the UK ( after Davidsons intervention) thats what I mean about making it up as you go along.
"regulatory alignment" is not vague. Its precise and specific. Its only vague if like Davies you want to pretend it means different things for different audiences. He ain't pulling the wool over many folks eyes.
Its also unnacceptable to the rabid tendency.
"Regulatory alignment" effectively means continuing to follow [b]at least some [/b] of the rules of the EU's single market.
Common Jambas beat that definition of precise and specific. Your turn... 😉
Haha, are the Tory fanboys pretending that this is all according to some sort of plan?
The only reason there's some structure to this is thanks to the EUs scheduling.
Left to their own devices, by now the Tories would be ready to send Davidson to capture Brussels in her tank, while all EU citizens in UK would be forced to register at checkpoints across the land- remember the glorious 'Citizens of Nowhere ' speech, Rudd's public register of foreign employees...
That thick as mince, lazy as a toad, 'what impact assessments ?' Davis or any of these grown ups know what they are doing isn't going to wash with anyone at this stage.
So kimbers who came up with the regulatory equivalence idea and who thought it was a go-er?
That’s either very brave or very foolish to state given that you have been arguing that there will be no deal,
Please, both sides, correct me if I'm wrong here as I'm no political expert, but as far as I can understand given what's currently proving to be irreconcilable differences we now only have three possible outcomes?
1) We go "yeah, sorry, not tenable, can we call the whole thing off? Would you like some jam?" and hit the big red reset button. Everything goes back to relative normality and we spend the next ten years licking our wounds and trying to work out how we're going to pay for the last two years.
2) We nationally accept the Four Freedoms and essentially remain as we are now only having relinquished any influence or control we have over how the EU is run, so we do as we're told.
3) Green zero, house wins, we crash out of the EU with nothing. No deals, no WTO (because we don't qualify without at least one if not two of the FFs AIUI), nothing. Which will at least solve the migration problem because all of our planes will be grounded.
Is that about right or have I missed / misunderstood something?
Are you still using WoS as a source for this intelligence (sic) that is being posted?
What does [url= https://www.worldofspectrum.org/ ]World of Spectrum[/url] have to do with any of this?
The EU are masters at vague stuff
Ah, irony.
teamhurtmore - Member
So kimbers who came up with the regulatory equivalence idea and who thought it was a go-er?
Someone with no understanding +or a large dislike) of the DUP (and/or Davidson & the scotts)?
the phrase was ,[u]continued[/u] regulatory alignment’ between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.
Not a new regulatory alignment, a continuation, nor did it mention rest of UK as Davis lied to parliament today
I think it was Junkyard who 1st said that this would happen in the DUP thread if only the Tory grownups paid more attention to traitorous remoaners on stw eh?
Yes and who came up with it and thought it was a go-er?
I’m beginning to think we might “leave the EU”, but not actually leave the EU.
THM’s fudge is looking very likely at present.
NI and RoI and therefore EU to be aligned
But says Arlene we must be aligned with Britain
Sounds reasonable says Ruth supporting her pal Nichola - just align us all with the EU.
Thats what we meant all along says David.
Humph says Theresa.
About right?
Im assuming you know, was it Corbyn?