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NI border does appear insoluble. Hard border on the Irish sea seems the only answer but DUP will flip.
So why is it a prerequisite for the main course?
No answer needed - it’s obvious
Unsurprising that neither side accepts the popular parlance position too
well who could be in doubt of such a clearly expressed view as that.
So that the EU can never be accused of restarting a civil war. The EU puts peace and freedom for the citizens of Ireland at the forefront of negotioations. The DUP/tories have embarked on a course that will divide Ireland.
probably unify actually edukator 😉
Neither implies two. We have many more here:neither side
Eire, SF, DUP, Tory/DUP British government (2), EU, rest of world. And all of those can be broken down further.
Consider the number of parties engaged in the process of formulating the Good Friday agreement, that's how many sides we have to get to agree.
You can chose to ignore the published positions of both sides if you wish. It would not be a first
You choose
Jezza asking the Tories to step aside and let him negotiate - make way for a team than can deliver Brexshit. 😀
So define labours position for us?
They wouldn't have called for a referendum.
And that's where the relevance of Labour in the current conversation ends. You can't pass off Cameron's ego-driven mistake as Labour's fault, no matter how hard you try.
You can chose to ignore the published positions of both sides if you wish. It would not be a first
Anyone got the remotest clue what he's talking about?
Ah, so we are back to focusing on what we wish was in front of us not what is in front of us.
Jezza seems keener than May to get on with it judging by his Commons performance today. But given that was never a real remainer no surprise there. At the moment we have a remainer leading the leave. Odd that
Ah, so we are back to focusing on what we wish was in front of us not what is in front of us
The owls are not what they seem.
[quote=Junkyard ]
we cannot as the good friday agreement collapses. Does the Eu really want a return to the troubles?The UK has so far refused this.
and round and round we go. The EU cannot accept any solution which doesn't involve a proper border between Eire and the UK. The only possible solutions to that break the GFA (the only possible options which don't are completely unacceptable to the DUP, though I suspect there are also other political reasons which make them completely unacceptable). Hence catch 22 as Edu says.
Yet THM seems to think this should be ignored and we should just get on with negotiations - presumably a solution is going to be pulled out of the hat like a rabbit at some point in the future?
Though it's also a meta catch 22 - even if this completely blocks talks and means that we don't negotiate anything and end up leaving with no deal, it's still a catch 22 - no deal is just as incompatible with the GFA.
Ah, so we are back to focusing on what we wish was in front of us not what is in front of us
No, you seem to keep invoking labour as a means to attempt to justify the shambles that is the Tories. What's in front of us at present is a perilously damaging economic precipice, and the most incompetent and internally riven government in living memory driving us towards it.
Anyone got the remotest clue what he's talking about?
Him? Long shot but who knows 😉
Yes zokes and jezza was demanding May to step aside today to let him get on with it! Square that circle...
Aracer - at what point has I said that the NI question should be ignored? We only need one ED and we have two. Don’t make it three
Good for him, tmh. The fact is, no matter how much you wish she would so he could, she won't. So we're back to:
focusing on what we wish was in front of us not what is in front of us
If you prefer to stay in La La land that’s your choice.
Excuse those who prefer to move on and face reality. That’s their choice too - kind of like a referendum 😉
Good night
Excuse those who prefer to move on and face reality.
Thank you for excusing me. The only bit of reality that matters is that the Tories are the ones negotiating with the EU, not Labour. I accept this, despite the questionable manner in which their government is propped up by the DUP.
In accepting this, I also acknowledge just how poor a job they're doing. To use an Australianism, blind Freddy (whomever he may be, I've not yet been able to ascertain this) can see how this will work out at the current rate of progress.
What alternative facts would you like me to consider as reality? Is labour actually in power after all? Is it all going swimmingly and the three (very predictable) major hurdles have been dealt with? Nope, thought not.
Tory must be a new synonym for delusional.
and round and round we go. The EU cannot accept any solution which doesn't involve a proper border between Eire and the UK. The only possible solutions to that break the GFA (the only possible options which don't are completely unacceptable to the DUP, though I suspect there are also other political reasons which make them completely unacceptable). Hence catch 22 as Edu says.Yet THM seems to think this should be ignored and we should just get on with negotiations - presumably a solution is going to be pulled out of the hat like a rabbit at some point in the future?
It's a tried and tested solution to everything, like housing affordability or wealth inequality, industrial decline or a failure to invest in the regions that need it. When you know adressing the problem results in either massive spends or unpalitable actions it's avoided (unless it's bombing people).
I think we are currently looking at solutions that involve magic impartial unicorns patrolling the border. Unless of course we expect the EU to do it from the Eire side at their expense?
So the real question is why did Davis agree to deliver an agreement on the 3 key issues if he knows he can't?
The payments are key and need to be agreed as the EU needs to know the shape of it's budget before negotiating future deals with the UK. It's almost as it some people thing the EU are trying to join the UK here 😉
The EU citizens question is still wolly and vague with lots of wriggle room such as defining who actually qualifies for stuff.
To think that this was not all known from well befoe A50 was declared would be neive.
So in this age of certainty and predictability does everyone in UK understand and accept their rights as third country citizens. Are there any aspects that are unclear or that need to be confirmed esp v-a-v EU citizens rights in UK. If not then let’s sign merrily on the dotted line
Ditto the budget.....
It’s easy this negotiating isn’t it? One wonders why we haven’t all lubed up all already.
So in this age of certainty and predictability does everyone in UK understand and accept their rights as third country citizens.
Well as a resident of a country I am not resident I understand my rights and obligations. I can plan for the next 5-10 years with certainty.
I would hope that those living in the EU knew the same.\
They don't know what they are going to be, those EU citizens in the UK don't know theirs fully either.
teamhurtmore - Member
FFS we essentially know what is happening with Eu nationals
So do we know or are we still negotiating?
This would be why there has been EU citizens leaving, why the UK is struggling to sort out nursing vacancies.
I believe it was proposed that the government could have commited to not make EU citizens bargaining chips before declaring A50 which would have sorted all this out.
The UK hasn't agreed the figure for the budget so not sorted and has no idea what to do about a border....
One doesn't wonder, one knows the choices are all shit. The tories can either fire up the SEL's and UKIP removing a majority, fire up the rational middle, business and service sector removing a majority or blame the EU.
Which is the best solution?
I can see why you still need to keep preparing with so many scearios to plan for.
I would hope that those living in the EU knew the same.\
They don't know what they are going to be, those EU citizens in the UK don't know theirs fully either
So in the spirit of mutual ignorance let’s sign on the dotted line. With enemies like this who needs friends. Any wonder why Junker wouldn’t agree to a deal up front???
Sounds like desperation there.
Which deal did he refuse? Was that the one that was not made?
MPs and peers have failed to secure any amendments to the 137-word bill. Peers passed two amendments, obliging the government to guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK and giving parliament a veto over the outcome of the Brexit talks, but this afternoon MPs voted to remove them both and then the House of Lords backed down, largely because Labour peers decided to abstain.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/mar/13/article-50-commons-lords-brexit-sturgeon-speech-corbyn-clarifies-his-position-on-second-scottish-independence-referendum-saying-hes-opposed-politics-live ]Guardian Link from the day[/url]
I would guess that he wouldn't sign off on a vague bit of loophole filled fiction as he knows who he is negotating with.
http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-caves-in-over-brexit-red-lines-11074223
Boris in the wings as always
Influential backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg also told Sky News the PM had gone "as far as she could reasonably go" in offering the EU a deal."If they reject it, then it would indicate a stubbornness, an obduracy, on their part which would indicate that they probably don't want a deal," he said.
Falling for it hook line and sinker.... who is actually running these negotations? Fancy thinking the UK was in the driving seat here.
It isn’t. It needs to be.
To think that this was not all known from well befoe A50 was declared would be neive.
it was all well known and obvious and predicted by many
Simple qestion, THM (to the British government notyou, you never answer direct questions). If I have visited my family any time in the 5 year continuous residence qualifying period will I still be able to stay in the UK? Case law says I won't as families have ben split already because candidates visited sick relatives outside the UK. On the basis of case law almost none of the EU residents currently in the UK can be sure they can stay as their residence hasn't been continuous - at some point they have visited family in their country of origin or had a foreign holiday.
A Brit on Europe 1 in French today. He pointed out that the vote was irregular and not democratic. Britsh born non residents were unable to vote (remainers likeme for example) while foreign born immigrants were allowed to vote. Those immigrants (Chewkw for example) being Brexiters.
Wasn't A50 triggered on 29 March and EU conditions published on 6 April ?
And they refused point blank to pre-negotiate
teamhurtmore - Member
Wasn't A50 triggered on 29 March and EU conditions published on 6 April ?
14/3 UK Parliament removed an ammendment that would have sorted most of it out. TM decided it was better to use them as pawns in the game.
30/3 A50
6/4 UK published doc that EU doesn't see as doing enough.
Assorted dates EU reminds the UK what it wants if the UK wants to negotiate a trade deal, [b]Davis agree's[/b] why is he not delivering?
How does the UK get something from the EU?
Give the EU some stuff they want.
Going to be a great deal, imagine how the rapid trade deal with the US is going to go?
We have RED (pencil) Lines
On the basis of case law almost none of the EU residents currently in the UK can be sure they can stay
There are many categories of people whose situation is not clear. You mention one - people who have in good faith interrupted their residence in the UK. Others include people with trivial police records and also unborn children of EU nationals. To suggest that the issue is all done and dusted is complacent nonsense.
Ah THM,the banging of a hollow drum.
Google is your friend, THM. No need to ask us lot questions, you acuse us of lying even when we give you the factual answer anyhow.
People can always read the Home Office's rules on calculating continuous period in the UK. It sets out conditions and what to do in the case of illness of relatives.
So simple question when we're pre-conditions announced?
I only point out when you post inaccurate things - admittedly in your case that is very often. Never sure if that is simply for comic effect though
teamhurtmore - Member
So simple question when we're pre-conditions announced?
Why would anybody bother answering your questions....
Point 1) There was an opportunity to put this to bed before declaring A50, anything after that is playing politics with people.
See Point 1.
We are still waiting your ideas for a border in NI.
People can always read the Home Office's rules on
Something that has not been agreed yet. The position paper is not clear on some aspects. People are voting with their feet.
They can but that doesn’t alter their right to stay here, or tell them how rigorously those regulations will be enforced. Funnly enough TM didn’t mention these issues either during her Florence speech or afterwards when she responded to Italian journalists questions on the subject.
British courts ignore home office guidelines.
On the we're negotiating but in fact we're being devious ******s front:
So the context is also understanding what third country status for UK citizens means. There are two sides to a negotiation, even if you guys seem happy to ignore our side.
They are needed, we are all fairly confident the EU will reciprocate. They won't however sign up to look after Brits more though.
Possibly your problem THM is your looking at this from a UK centric point of view. You can moan all you want about how the EU isn't being fair, it's was clearly warned that the UK would have a really difficult time negotiating with a much larger organisation and probably come up with a bad deal.
The home office promising one thing to the EU (and the UK parliament) whilst secretly planning to do something else.....
Where's that deep & special relationship zombie Maybot was promising ?
Nobody's ignoring anything, but we can speak for "our" side, and say what we think is the principled thing for "us" to do - in this case to refuse to use people as bargaining chips. (There's also the thing about not telling lies in important speeches, but probably that's a principle too far.)
no shit Mike! We are in a negotiation. We need to understand their position and protect ours. That's what it's all about now. The EU wants us to end up worse off, we need to make sure that doesn't happen. It's hardly rocket science is it.
I have at least looked at both sides positions on the rights of UK citizens but am not surprised that no one answers this question. Most of you seem happy to swallow the EUs position and leave us worse off.
Brexshit is bad enough without that kind of attitude.
The EU wants us to end up worse off, we need to make sure that doesn't happen.
There is only one option that will achieve that: call off Brexit.
26 EU leaderswould lose the next elections if Britain has better conditions after Brexit and the EU would last until th efollowing gathering of the European commision. It's not rocket science, rocket science is possible and really quite easy, what you want is a fantasy world, THM, and that will reamain afantasy.
Most of you seem happy to swallow the EUs position and leave us worse off.
It's not a zero sum game. Acting with integrity on the rights of EU nationals will not leave us worse off. Brexshit is bad enough without that kind of attitude.
The EU wants us to end up worse off, we need to make sure that doesn't happen. It's hardly rocket science is it.
Brexit will make us worse off regardless and however hard we wish won't make May a competent PM or Davis any good at negotiation.
The EU will have seen this leak and the Florence 'reset' undone that bit more
Yep foreign nationals is a step towards good will. It may go some way to redress the crap done so far. As said there is no good outcome for the UK, red lines and chest beating won't help. If the UK does not concede ground then it gets a lot worse. Only an idiot would think the UK can impose terms on the eu.
Domminic cummings has deleted his twitter account
did the brexies get to him?
his juciest critiques of the governments saga of own-goals that is is the Tories approach to brexit can be found here
https://jonworth.eu/dominic-cummings-odysseanproject-deletes-twitter-account-piecing-back-together/
The EU wants us to end up worse off, we need to make sure that doesn't happen
How can we not end up worse off? I thought you (THM) agreed that brexit was going to do that. Can hardly expect the EU to somehow make up for our stupidity, or blame them for our actions.
We need to understand their position
I'd respectfully suggest that forming and then understanding our own position would be a prerequisite before we worry too much about the EU's.
Right now it's such an omnishambles it's no wonder that by simply bothering to formulate a position the EU appear intransigent.
Can hardly expect the EU to somehow make up for our stupidity.
Well, he can, and he is. Doesn't mean that they will though, as most of us can clearly see.
I'd respectfully suggest that forming and then understanding our own position would be a prerequisite before we worry too much about the EU's.
Well seeing as the party that's nominally in power in this country is behaving like some medieval feudal court, it's hardly surprising the 'message' changes daily, and depending on who you speak too. And from the Maybots inane ramblings yesterday it would appear that this week the looneys have her ear again.
Did anyone else watch yesterdays farcical events with a horrible sense of foreboding? It seems like we're firmly back to 'no deal is better than a bad deal' territory.
Well, I suppose that technically that's true if you're a Tory minister. Maybe not so much for the rest of us....
A [url= http://peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/i-dont-like-this-brexit-but-i-will-live.html?m=1 ]bruisingly candid take here[/url] from one of Brexit's seemingly more thoughtful exponents:
He thinks the tough love/Hunger Games scenario is gonna be good for us all, toughe us up, make us resourceful. Bless.
On World Mental Health Day, this particular zinger stands out:
I'm of the view that in recent years people have become increasingly spoiled and self-indulgent, inventing psychological problems for themselves in the absence of any real challenges or imperatives to grow as people. I have always primarily thought Brexit would be a reboot on British politics and culture. In a lot of ways it will bring back much of what is missing. A little austerity might very well make us less frivolous.
This the kind of thing you're after, Jambalaya?
Well seeing as the party that's nominally in power in this country is behaving like some medieval feudal court, it's hardly surprising the 'message' changes daily, and depending on who you speak too. And from the Maybots inane ramblings yesterday it would appear that this week the looneys have her ear again.
This
The schizophrenic nature of the Torys continues, with a wave of support for their strong & courageous PM
followed by another wave of Brexiters undermining her completely by insisting she follows their hard brexit agenda, Jenkin obviously sensing weakness with his press releases yesterday
'kin hell stefmecdef thats a grim vision of what lies ahead, what kind of madman is he, that he wants it to happen?
'kin hell stefmecdef thats a grim vision of what lies ahead, what kind of madman is he, that he wants it to happen?
I'm willing to bet that he doesn't see that as actually happening to HIM, just to, you know, other people.
Corbyn was absolutely on the money yesterday when he pointed out that half the party want the foreign secretary sacked, and the other half want the chancellor sacked.
Government Brexit policy, such as it is, seems to change by the minute depending which group the floundering hostage of a PM presently feels the most threatened by
I'd imagine that viewed from the continent, negotiating at the moment with this shower is a pretty pointless exercise, as this farcical house of cards must be due to implode any second. In the meantime, we're all just in this weird, rudderless limbo
Surely even someone as cold and emotionally stunted as the Maybot must realise that this is all now totally futile? That holding on to 'power' purely for the sake of it, while actually rendering yourself utterly powerless, and at the mercy of external forces, is now doing potentially enormous damage to this country.
How exactly can we achieve that its right up there with wishing the tide did not come in.The EU wants us to end up worse off, we need to make sure that doesn't happen.
We were always going to be worse off and they were always going to ensure it as their is no point being in the club if you can leave, not pay and still be at the same point - why would anyone stay?
No amount of action or effort by anyone , of any party or political persuasion, is going to prevent that. We need to aim to make us the least worst off we can possibly be.
the only way to achieve that is to take the pills the Eu throw at us agree and then get a trade deal . We wont be getting it by threatening to be a low tax regime on their border and I am not sure we all want to , myself included, accept ALL of their pills.
your version of this was to ignore their stated views. I suggest you work on yourself rather than lecture us on our comprehension. Their position is the one they keep restating endlessly that you reject as they"know this ". They are setting criteria we need to meet they are not negotiating. once we accept this we can decide what to do. I am not sure how many times we need to move and them not for you to grasp this or for others for that matter but this is not a negotiation. In the house analogy we need to agree to buy the house for a price then negotiate the fittings where as we want to still be haggling over the price whilst discussing the fittings. the EU has and will continue to reject this view because its not a negotiation on their lines in the sand. I am not overly optimistic it will be over trade either but this is meet our criteria then we can talk. We have not met them so they wont talk. Its at best a stand of or possibly even them "bullying" us if you like but it was always going to be this as we want access t them and they will lose us if they have to us as we pay the higher price.We need to understand their position and protect ours
The "bring back the birch brigade" of the hard Tory right absolutely loves the idea of Brexit as a means of punishing everyone who isn't already rich, or a member of the Conservative party because they want to destroy our economy in order to rebuild it, sans NHS and with massively reduced public spending.
These people care little for the human cost.
PJM1974 has it nailed, this is the opportunity of a lifetime if you are in the correct socio economic area. Trouble is most people won't be.
This is the Miners Stike "lesson" for those who voted for and against (it makes no odds) Brexit.
It is a blatant effort to reset the position of the working poor in the UK and turn tgem back into a labouring class - if they think they had a hard time prior to Brexit it's going to be a shock.
I thought I was reading a new [i]Yes minister[/i] script here...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/09/theresa-may-stumbles-brexit-statement?CMP=fb_gu
that article brilliantly sums up the Tories internal combustion
That piece by North paints Brexit for what it has become: a cult for whom the end must be reached whatever the consequences. I follow him on twitter for what I thought was a reasonable enough voice pro-Brexit unlike cultists here and the quitlings they’re sucking in. But he’s shown himself to be an ideologue with a sociopathic disregard for those who’ll suffer in an economic downturn.
While I am positively overjoyed at the thought of the Conservative Party self-immolating and destroying itself, nature abhors a vacuum especially in politics.
Things will get very, very messy. One thing that you can be sure of is that those who've made controversial and unwelcome decisions won't be penalised in any way, if they've voted out of office then they stand to live pretty well on their pension pot and special MP redundancy packages. They'll end up in the private sector or the public speaking circuit.
I can't help thinking that Brexit would go far better for the ordinary person if the success or failure of it is directly linked to our soon to be ex-MPs future earnings. And by directly linked, I mean if more stuff is privatised or our mean GDP falls then our swashbuckling Brexiteers should pick up the tab themselves.
oldmanmtb - absolutely bang on.
One thing they seem to have forgotten though, with their monumental arrogance and selective memory, is that though they eventually 'won' the miner's strike, it was touch and go for a long time.
This time they're planning to pretty much end the welfare state, privatise the NHS, slash and burn working conditions, wage rates and environmental protections in order to fund huge tax cuts for the rich, and further increase already massive inequality
All while promising the opposite (£350 million a week extra for the NHS anyone?)
If they think that such a huge chunk of the countries population is going to just accept that con-trick, and take that lying down, I think they may be in for a bit of wake up call that'll make the miner's strike look like a scuffle in a pub car park. And the police force, having been treated like the rest of the public sector (with contempt) will be in no mood to form the militia they were for Fatcha
Forget Yes Minister. This thread is becoming Python-esque!
This is interesting for anyone wondering how it came to this, 20 years of misleasding anti EU propaganda by the UK press debunked one by one:
[url= http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ ]http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/[/url]
Forget Yes Minister. This thread is becoming Python-esque!
Correct. Just when we think the Black Night / Jamby are finally cottoning on to reality, you ramp up the absurdity a notch or three.
THM, you still haven't explained how you think we can avoid ending up worse off as a result of brexit.
(Even the obvious route of abandoning brexit will leave us worse off that we were before embarking on this crazy act of self-harm)
For good reason, I believe that Brexshit will make us worse off. But that is my view and it doesn't matter because it's the minority view. Brexshit is going to happen - that is the will of the majority of voters. So the priority is simply to minimise the damage and protect our interests to the best we can. In my direct sphere of influence, we are reasonably well prepared at least structurally but we do not know what the full economic impact will be. But at the wider level, I think the constant remoaning and division merely makes the likelihood of worst case scenarios coming true more likely. Hence, I believe that it is important for unity - to the extent that it is possible - to be used to strengthen our negotiating position. The current climate merely weakens us.
The first step is to recognise what the EU is doing - not hard, since there is precedent - and stand up to their games. If this means threatening a hard Brexsit then so be it. Both sides are losers here unless (or even if) they get around the table and iron out the terms under which we are going to trade with each other. That is priority #1 and all other things stem from that, not the other ways round as the EU is trying to make us believe.
So bizarrely, I am happy/relaxed to hear May talk of preparing for a hard on. The team need to look their counter parties with that weapon firmly in view! Only then will we move on, or so it seems at the moment.
We shall see.....
I am happy/relaxed to hear May talk of preparing for a hard on.
To hear of May preparing for a hard on is not something I find relaxing!
since there is precedent
No other country has ever quit the union. No precedent.
In your financial microcosme, THM.That is priority #1
In the real world the EU is more worried about the fate of the Irish, the fate of EU citizens in the UK, and getting the bills paid.
But at the wider level, I think the constant remoaning and division merely makes the likelihood of worst case scenarios coming true more likely
Enemies of the people!!
Let's all show our solidarity with The Breshitters by going out tonight and vandalising a Polish community centre - that'll show those Brussels Bureaucrats that we are not to be messed with!
There is clear precedent in how the EU approach negotiations. You simply chose to ignored this and swallow their spin and even make it sound vaguely plausible. You are not alone. That is one of the problems.
Kilo. My iPhone autocorrect was too good to change! The image is eye watering I accept.
Edukator - Reformed Troll
No other country has ever quit the union. No precedent.
THM is talking about Greece
whats interesting is that the UK gov doesnt seem to have learnt anything from that
just like Greece, Davis has wasted months and months trying to get round the EUs scheduling that he signed up to (In greeces case wanted debt relief 1st)
and TSpiras' government sold an impossible dream that they could BS the EU into cake & eat it settlement, continually telling the domestic press that they would be able to make it work, without admitting that reality would be a messy compromise much to the frustration of the EU (sounds rather familiar)
Varoufakis advised just taking an off the shelf Norway/Swiss option until we could work out something better, May has dissmissed this repeatedly, again boxing us in with her own rhetoric
Varoufakis also came up with his camera's on touritsts plan to stop tax dodging, which sounds a lot like the Tories magic NI border plans
Varoufakis also publically attacked the EU during the talks, pissing them off even more
In the end the end they just ignored him and went to Tspiras to deal
Varoufakis now makes a living selling books and writing articles about how it was the EU that made the negotiations go south and definitely not his fault
Varoufakis now makes a living selling books and writing articles about how it was the EU that made the negotiations go south and definitely not his fault
However, Varoufakis has been proved right about more or less everything, including the EU's anti-democratic antics (talking behind the scenes with opposition leaders), economic incompetence (strangling the Greek economy) and general lack of accountability (Eurogroup shenanigans).
thm is correct to say that they are playing the same tune again, but the answer is not (IMO) to all fall into line behind Boris and Rees-Mogg and pretend that Brexit is Beautiful.
to hear of May preparing for a hard on is not something I find relaxing!
hear hear.
TM very weak and wobbly on LBC just now.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]For good reason, I believe that Brexshit will make us worse off. But that is my view and it doesn't matter because it's the minority view.
Wrong. Even if you believe there is no shift from 52/48, plenty of leave supporters think it will make us worse off, ranging from Peter North up there, to those with far less of an understanding who think it's worth it to keep foreigners out.
The first step is to recognise what the EU is doing - not hard, since there is precedent - and stand up to their games.
Yeah, we should stand up to their insistence the a solution be found to the Irish border problem - that's clearly just a game, and we know there's a solution involving faeries.
but the answer is not (IMO) to all fall into line behind Boris and Rees-Mogg and pretend that Brexit is Beautiful.
That's my point, Varoufakis was elected on a populist mandate to deliver the impossible, by the time he realised it wasn't going to happen it was too late, brexies seem to be repeating same mistakes