[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

[quote=teamhurtmore ]I’m not. I see this so am getting in with making the best of what is in front of us. No point remaining in denial for ever

How?

It hasn’t happened and we do not know the terms yet.

Probably reducing risk exposure to the UK

Sensible Europeans do exist

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/denmark-dismisses-eu-wrangling-brexit-divorce-bill-game

Guardian, THM. Remainder fodder. Can trust it if you’re a want to get on with it Brextremist. 😉

So Kristian Jensen is a sensible European politican? Great, let's dig out some more of his quotes… I seem to recall some real corkers on the issue in hand… I'm off to search them out…

Top of the search results was a Guardian story… so let's start with that shall we…
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/14/road-to-brexit-is-paved-with-amusement-danish-and-brave-faces-british

The target of the ambassador’s broadside was Kristian Jensen, the 46-year-old golden boy of Danish politics running the ministry of finance who, moments earlier at the same conference in Copenhagen, had had the gall to suggest that Britain’s days as a global power had been and gone and that Brexit would be a [b]“disaster for the UK”.[/b]

[b]“There are two kinds of European nations,” [/b]Jensen told the audience gathered for the Road to Brexit event in the Danish parliament. [b]“There are small nations and there are countries that have not yet realised they are small nations.”[/b]

He added:[b] “It is a paradox that the country that once had an empire on which the sun never sets, that ruled the waves, that in its heart is truly global, is now drawing back from the world’s most successful free trade area. It is a paradox that I cannot get...

“I had the privilege of meeting Boris Johnson shortly after he took office. Bojo said to me: ‘Come on Kristian, don’t be so sad, there must be something good about Brexit’. I just shook my head and said: ‘No. There is nothing.’”[/b]

[url= https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1008/910662-brexit-customs/ ]Omni-shambles beckons[/url]

Representatives of the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the French president, Emmanuel Macron, led a group of member states stridently opposed to showing such flexibility.

One Danish finance minister isn't going to change the course of Brexit. Especially he hasn't made clear the compromises he thinks the EU should make on NI, EU nationals in the UK etc.

Incidently when you quote me as calling for "economic vandalism", I did not. I envouraged people to "sabotage Brexit", "boycott Brexit supporting businesses such as Dyson" and "save for the hard times which will reduce GDP and make it clear Brexit is a bad idea". That is not economic vandalism, it is using yur economic power to bring about the change you wish for.

Please don't misquote me THM, you are in the habit of lying about what I have said.

Seems to me that guardian headline seriously misreads his intentions. Yes it's a "game", one where we are seriously disadvantaged. Calling it a game does not mean it is not serious and that we are not going to take a beating, as any fan of <insert random team of random sport> well knows.

Well… that was very depressing Kilo, but no one should be surprised.
Before the vote, people (outside NI) accepted the "it'll be fine, don't worry about it" empty responses as regards the border.
Before A50 was triggered, politicans didn't insist on a plan for the border being formed first (leaving NI high and dry).
And, even now… months on… position papers might as well say "the magic computer fairies will solve it".
Ask anyone who still thinks that the border won't be problem, and they start talking about a lawless regime where smuggling is the solution, where the authorities will, hopefully, turn a blind eye to most goods crossing the border.

Edukator - don’t embarrass yourself. Your comments were clear and went beyond boycotting specific brexit related companies to call for reduced overall consumption in order to trigger an economic downturn. That fits into economic vandalism and is frankly rather silly as an idea. You seem to be in the habit of lying about what you said. Don’t look at others

Kelvin - in your quote another sensible comment re the paradox of what we are doing. Quite correct.

Re the direction. Ok once we are over the shock of Brexshit itself, I am happy that we are seeking a bespoke deal as the existing options are weak substitutes for where we are. I hope we wan achieve it but the obstacles are equally obvious not least the folly of ending FOM

Could it be the NI situation is the government's get out clause? "Sorry we would love to deliver brexit but it simply isn't possible".

Your comments were clear and went beyond boycotting specific brexit related companies to call for reduced overall consumption in order to trigger an economic downturn.

So you can paraphrase my points correctly, thank you. That's not "economic vandalism".

Vandalism is gratuitous destruction for the sake of it, that's not what I'm calling for. Sabotage has an objective - stop something happening.

[i] kelvin - Member

Ask anyone who still thinks that the border won't be problem, and they start talking about a lawless regime where smuggling is the solution, where the authorities will, hopefully, turn a blind eye to most goods crossing the border. [/i]

I read somewhere last summer that the existing customs at places like Calais and Folkstone already acknowledge that they can't possibly check every vehicle that comes through and that therefore they know tons of stuff/people are being smuggled past them every week. . . .

Edukator - don’t embarrass yourself.

You seem to be in the habit of lying about what you said. Don’t look at others

Whilst I think its a bit of a minor point either way as to whther its sabotage or vandalism he insist he meant one thing so probably best to just accept this rather than inist he meant something else especially when he is denying it

At best you are mistaken.

we are seeking a bespoke deal

When people choose their language they really ought to think about how it's going to read when their foreign negociating adversaries (becuase the whole process was set out as adversarial by the Brits from the outset) translate it.

Macron speaks pretty good English and in his head it will read "sur mesure"/"sur commande". Which conjours up the idea of ordering an expensive suit from the tailors. "My tailor is rich" is a stock phrase peole quote when they joke about speaking English. The image is of some snooty country gent rolling in cash ordering his tailor around when ordering a tailor-made suit. You really don't demande a "bespoke deal" unless you're signaling you're going to be a difficult client but rich enough to be ripped off for the privilege of being difficult.

I would imagine very few native english speakers know what it means in france as an idiom. I would assume no one would use it in that way here, as the meaning would not e understood, and that is not what is meant when it is said here by anyone , whatever their politics.

I’m just an odd shape, so while I have held off bespoke suits so far (with the exception on my Charlie - lovely jacket) I probably will at some point.

For now lots of alterations have had to suffice.

If anyone has a French(wo)man to hand, just say "my tailor is rich" in an "allo allo" voice and see how they react.

The language is clear from Ed, from May and from the EU

Dealing with the serious ones alone - May had been clear: we want a positive relationship with Europe but we need a deal that reflects our unique position since the existing version are poor substitutes.

The EU: we must ensure that Britain is worse off and we won’t negotiate until they commit to specific financial details and solve and unsolvable issue. Hmmm....

Pretty clear from an objective perspective. Sadly for our EU friends they have the bigger issue of their bluff on the project is being called and there is a global trend - an unfortunate one at that - towards seeking solutions in narrow National/ regional terms rather than wider global ones. They have no answer other than the unpopular dream of greater political union that the majority do not want.

I dont understand your pov THM .

The EU want to get as much cash as possible , i think it is fair enough in a negociation . I am sure you do the same in your day to day job .

On NI , Uk wants out of the EU , so there is a need for a border solution . and it is only fair that the uk sorts it out .

The UK has created the whole Brexit situation , no one else .

Of course - they have a lot to lose and they need to protect their interests - although there are questions about how that is best achieved. So fair does

But we need to negotiate properly at some point. Their tactic is well known but simply makes a bad exit more likely and that is not in anyone’s interests

My point is why do so many people here swallow their BS on negotiations instead of standing by what is in our interests - the answer lies in the denial on what’s happening and that is frankly silly and unproductive. And that before the “sabs” step in!!

Fortunately the grown ups are getting on with things leaving the media to create the froth 😉

becuase the whole process was set out as adversarial by the Brits from the outset

because some remainers can see through the lies and deception from the brexiters .

The bitter UK language from Lancaster House

I want us to be a truly Global Britain – [b]the best friend and neighbour to our European partners[/b],

Apparently that is “adversarial”. You have to smile 😉

And Florence

There is a vibrant debate going on about the shape of the EU’s institutions and the direction of the Union in the years ahead. We don’t want to stand in the way of that.

Indeed, we want to be your strongest friend and partner as the EU, and the UK thrive side by side.

Aux armes!!! 😉

I don't even know what Lancaster house is or what it represents, I'll ask the guys in the MTB club. However they've all heard of NO 10 downing street and most know who davies and May are:

The latest Downing Street blunder involving a secret document being photographed outside Number 10 appears to reveal Tory tactics on Brexit.

And, embarrassingly for Theresa May and Brexit minister David Davis, the handwritten notes on the document clearly say: "What's the model? Have your cake and eat it."

The translation is "avoir le beurre et l'argent du beurre" = have your butter and the money from (selling) the butter)

To which is added "et le sourire de la crémière" = and a smile from the dairy maid. Which gets corrupted to "et le cul de la crémière" which Dany Cohn-Bendit moderated to "les fesses de la crémière" speaking on Europe 1 the morning after.

All these sound bites smack off extreme arrogance and even Mickey taking when translated.

Adversarial, disrespectful, provocative, condescending... just like you on this forum, THM.

I was wondering where that pot had got to.

Brids of a feather eh, Mefty.

Fortunately the grown ups are getting on with things

It's hard to imagine anyone who has followed the process over the past 18 months making such an absurd comment.

THM - I think it’s “fair dos” not “fair does”. You on the iPhone again?

PS you accused me of normally being serious the other day. We'll have no more of that thank you.

Indeed 😉

Now the term bespoke deal is a funny one, it does mean literally anything (including a no deal as it would be bespoke to the situation) at no point does it guarantee anything useful.
As far as dealing with the eu and choosing who to believe/support it is possible to look at it from an impartial standpoint. The simple one is the UK is under prepared for the key issues and unwilling to come up with solutions to them.
The situation was created by the UK.
A country with a weak hand is attempting to negotiate a better deal than others with very little to offer and the eu is standing firm. It's what the massive player in any negotiation does, it's not stalling its not blocking its simply working in their best interests.

How about red, white and blue brexit instead 😉 ?

Fortunately the grown ups are getting on with things leaving the media to create the froth

You are even more delusional than Jamby.

Instead of the other meaningless drivel?
Worst of the media froth is from the tabloids (the brexie/racist ones) leaping on every utterance by anyone as the EU are out to kill us/nuke them from Orbit or how May is smashing them and walking all over it all (this monday being a slight exception)
I'm yet to see anything grown up from the UK team, Borris breifing the press on his vision is a prime example.

and another example of "Remoaning"
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41545184

Prices may rise and home deliveries could be slower unless the retail sector retains access to all EU workers after Brexit, a trade body has warned.
EU citizens account for just 6% of the industry's 170,000 workforce, the British Retail Consortium said.
However, they are concentrated in warehouse and distribution jobs, its annual workforce survey showed.
More than half of retailers said their EU employees were worried about their right to remain in the UK.
Just over a fifth of retail firms had had some European staff leave the UK already, the BRC survey found.
The trade body said ending of free movement for EU nationals could lead to higher costs for businesses and consumers, "from the service delivered in a store to next day delivery of an online order ... to the prices of what you buy".
It argued that the retail sector should keep access to non-graduate European workers without the need for employer sponsorship after the UK leaves the EU.
BRC chief executive Helen Dickinson said the Brexit decision had created uncertainty for both business and their EU workers.
"It is not right that 16 months after the referendum these people still don't have the security they need to continue their lives," she said.

teamhurtmore - Member
How about red, white and blue brexit instead ?

We did that - [url= ]Clicky[/url]

I have an 18 journey today. Expect some poignant thoughts, facetious silliness and many spelling mistakes / autocorrects.

I am sure it will be a step up from zokes! Enjoyed the clicky 😉

I think you enjoyed it last year too.

spekkie - Member

I read somewhere last summer that the existing customs at places like Calais and Folkstone already acknowledge that they can't possibly check every vehicle that comes through and that therefore they know tons of stuff/people are being smuggled past them every week. . . .

UK border controls were relaxed considerably in the nineties, for fiscal matters the method of control shifted towards using the importers systems and much less physical control, so as you say the border force can't check everything although the use of newer technology helped in preventive rummage work. However the problem will be when there's no single market and the nature of the perfectly legal commodities is of concern due to tariffs, rebates etc. Constant under investment means there won't be the staff, facilities or technology to deal with this.
The controls at the airports are already creaking at peak times remember maybots massive queues at the airports to process travellers from non Eu countries, well removing freedom of movement for eu nationals isn't going to help that, queue loads of staff being removed from front line anti smuggling duties and the relaxation of checks to clear the log jams.

NI border is going to be even more of a mess , back to the old days of cows being shifted across borders to screw subsidies. Who wants to be a border guard in the north? A new unarmed "legitimate target " which will be easy picking for any dissidents?

I'm sure this has been covered, but Hammond is now under fire for not thinking enough positive thoughts, or making enough positive sounding statements.

Also seems he's "coopted the CBI, parts of the City and, it seems, the Treasury”. Well. At least he's been busy.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/conservative-brexiters-turn-fire-philip-hammonds-treasury-sack-chancellor

Trying to remove the grownups from the room.

I clicked on the link to Bernhard Jenkins article. It started with the line

[i]There is no intrinsic reason why Brexit should be difficult or damaging[/i]

I don't think I'll bother reading any more of it, as he clearly has less of an understanding of reality than a 2 year old

[img] [/img]
I think we can safely file that with the others then, no room for you reality sorts in here. Positive Mental Attitude and all that

I am sure it will be a step up from zokes!

Don't like home truths do you, Tmh?

So - they continue to flounder. apparently ( from Maybot) the ball is in their court now. What utter piffle. She is trying to frame the debate in such a way that the EU are seen as the intransigent ones. Well most of us can see thru this. No progress on the NI border, a laughably inadequate offer on our continuing commitments and a disgustingly poor offer on EU citizens rights.

And still the tories can't even get a united front on the negotiating positions

She is trying to frame the debate in such a way that the EU are seen as the intransigent ones.

I'll agree with tmh that the EU may be being intransigent, but at least they're not incompetent

I don't see the EU as intransigent at all. Merely looking after their interests. They have been consistent and reasonable right from the start.

In what way do you see the EU as intransigent?

Mainly in that they're driving a hard bargain by looking after their interests. Quite understandable, and predictable, but it's also intransigence.

Nope - its not. Its just negotiating. Why should they make things worse for themselves to ease our way? No way are they going to lose out so the UK can gain.

Its not the EU that have gone missing at the negotiations, its not the EU that are unprepared, its not the EU being inconsistent, its not the EU that don't have a unified agreed position

You're doing a remarkable job of arguing with someone who is in agreement with you 🙄

[i]Definition of intransigent

1) characterised by refusal to compromise or to abandon an often extreme position or attitude

[u]2) uncompromising: intransigent in their opposition[/u][/i]

They are being intransigent, only in that they are expecting the UK to follow the schedule we signed up to, Davis just wasting months whining about trade deal 1st

The Tories quite clearly still think the EU mob are playing poker and at some point will say "Go on then, we'll give you whatever you want". They really don't understand that they hold no cards do they?

It would be hilarious if it wasn't going to be so damaging.

Intransigence? If you want to see Intransigence then the Tory conference was the place to be last week. I caught footage of some fringe meeting or other. I think its was Bill Cash or one of the other foaming-at-the-mouth fruitloop Tory MPs. It was the ramblings of a madman. His proposal was that we basically tell the EU fo eff off, send all the immigrants back, crash out of the single market and customs union and carry on on WTO terms.

In normal circumstances, you'd just laugh at this lunacy and suggest their doctor ups their medication, but May is so weak that she has to pacify these headcases

It is not going to end well

The EU position is not extreme tho. Its moderate, proportionate and reasonable. thus its not intransigence to stick to it. I actually think they have been far more helpful than they might have been and much more flexible

😀

Reasonable Europeans
Intransigent Brits

We really have swallowed their narrative hook, line and sinker

😀

Are you struggling to read, TJ?

I even underlined the relevant bit. In any case, the first definition says "often", which is not a synonym for "always".

Words in having more than one meaning shocker....

So who's the EU's equivalent of Bill Cash then Hurty?

Binners the headcases feed the news, behind the scenes the grown ups are moving forward albeit slowly and as usually business is being proactive

Papers don’t sell if they stick to the dull underlying truth

We really have swallowed their narrative hook, line and sinker

Nope, just being pragmatic realists.

Not that it matters anyway, with your clowns in charge we'd be lucky to negotiate a discount at a second hand car dealer.

zokes - I don't think the EUs position fits those criteria at all. Its just opinion tho

WTF has a has-been like Cash got to do with things? He’s just background noise

Who are my clowns?

Its just opinion tho

Edinburgh defence v2.0? 😉

Who are my clowns?

Unless you've changed your spots even more remarkably than you did about Brexit, I believe you're usually found in support of the Tories, no?

I'll leave you to work out the rest...

Awa' and shite 😉

Davies hasn't even bothered to turn up today

Asked about the absence of the Brexit secretary, David Davis, from the first day of the fifth round of negotiations starting on Monday, the spokesman added: “The European commission article 50 team is available 24/7. The timing of talks depends on the availability of our UK partners. We are always here and we are ready.”

Eu negotiate - well done, perfectly understandable
UK negotiate - boo hiss, indefensible

With enemies like this, who needs friends?

Papers don’t sell if they stick to the dull underlying truth

FFS we essentially know what is happening with Eu nationals

Sturgeon - remember her? - was even offering to pay the £65 for those working in the public sector as a sign of tartan hoodwill

UK government currently playing a toddler screaming “it’s not fair” very well indeed. It’s ok though, plenty of Mitty quitlings telling us that things are going smoothly behind the scenes. 😆

“The ball’s in your court.”
(Please sort out our internal party crisis for us.)

Have the ground workers started widening the roads at Irish border crossings yet?

FFS we essentially know what is happening with Eu nationals

What is?

Then what's happening with the border?

And what are we doing about the bill?

No answers on those, no trade deal. Remarkably simple concept to grasp, one would have thought.

teamhurtmore - Member

FFS we essentially know what is happening with Eu nationals

really? I know I shouldn't engage with you but this is utter nonsense. ther have been proposals from the tories immediately contradicted by other tories and no suggestions are in any way close to what would be satisfactory to the EU and the tories proposals if reciprocated would =mean huge issues for all those brits living in the EU

So go on - I'll open another post of yours. What is the position on EU nationals living in the UK. Will they have to have id cards or not? Will they have to apply for right to remain or not? Will they be eligible for NHS care or not? Will they be eligible for benefits or not?

All thoses issues have recent contradictions from the tories

plenty of Mitty quitlings

You imaginative choice of phrase is getting more developed and enjoyable to read. More subtle than the studs on the shin too! Bravo! 😉

essentially? or actually have an agreed position.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safeguarding-the-position-of-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-and-uk-nationals-in-the-eu/the-united-kingdoms-exit-from-the-european-union-safeguarding-the-position-of-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk-and-uk-nationals-living-in-the-eu
That would not be enough for me to commit to my future somewhere.

Zokes, TJ - May’s announcement is there for anyone to read

It even made the headlines and cause quite a stir.

THM - yes and is a part of the contradictory briefings. Will EU nationals Need ID cards? One tory says yes, another no. Also it is simply nothing like good enough an offer - if reciprocated it would mean huge issues for the million UK nationals in the EU

I knew it would be pointless. Bloocker back on

Even in May's warm words, it is clear that EU non UK Citizens will neither keep their existing rights, nor be treated the same as UK Citizens. Digging into the position papers doesn't make it at all clear where that erosion of rights ends, or how different life in the UK will be for rEU nationals compared to UK nationals.

That will depend on the negotiations won’t it. Good for her for protecting UK interests

Shucks TJ miss you already. 😉

Is this the position?
He ( labour MEP) says in particular that the mandatory nature of the British requirement for 3.2 million EU nationals in Britain to apply for biometric ID residence documents declaring their “settled status” is likely to face tough opposition from the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier.

Or is it this?
It read: “The Home Office has confirmed ... its position that EU citizens will not have to have comprehensive sickness insurance [private health insurance], will not have to meet an income threshold, will not have to submit fingerprints; will not be issued with an ID card.”

so which is it?

settled position?

Those joining after Brexit will be subject to the new immigration rules. The Home Office document says a range of options is being considered on how EU migration will work “for new arrivals post-Brexit” and proposals will be published as soon as possible.

teamhurtmore - Member
That will depend on the negotiations won’t it. Good for her for protecting UK interests

Why have one position on an issue when you can have several, depending on who you speak to, and what day of the week it is?