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The point I am trying to make is these criticisms of the EU are not based on the truth in any way ie they are because of believing in the lies of the europhobic press
so Corbyn has been reading and getting influenced by the europhobic press then, rather than making up his own mind ?
still waiting for someone to explain why he is wrong ?
I think you need to learn about Representative Democracies, they are very common. If you think a Direct Democracy is the only acceptable form I suggest you move to Glarus. The EU is neither.
just off to listen to Nigel F on LBC...
Mefty - its you that was claiming you elected the PM and cabinet and that this was somewhat different to the EU - as I pointed out the EU is actually far more democratic in that its elected by PR, all officials have democratic oversight and that there are no unelected lawmakers unlike in the UK
Democratic up to the point the Commission overrides a parliamentary decision such as some pharma issues a few years back. A bit like the UK cabinet ignoring the house on some issues and overriding or ruling without consultation.
I have a say in a vote that determines who governs us, I don't have that for the EU and I only have a say in who has oversight not executive power. You seem to be a big fan of appointment for the EU, but not for the House of Lords - typical blindness.
The old canard about PR being more democratic, it is a voting system with strengths and weaknesses, the latter are often illustrated on here, FPTP also has strengths and weaknesses - neither is more democratic than the other.
Neither
There are different types of PR.
There are different types of PR.
But we are talking about D'Hondt, having said that there is no perfect system, all have weaknesses.
Mefty (careful with apple autocorrect here) - you seem to have missed the rules of engagement here
I am no fan of elected officials but the difference is that in the EU they have democratic oversight which is better than the UK where there is no democratic oversight.
FPTP is not really democratic. When you get majority governments on a minority of the vote it is seriously flawed.
There are many different PR systems - I vote in 3 different ones in Scotland
I have a say in a vote that determines who governs us, I don't have that for the EU
This is simple nonsense. You have exactly the same say in who governs us in both the EU and the UK
This is simple nonsense.
How many times do you need to be told mefty. Know your place....
....or at the very least respect the thread's rules
I wonder who on here has actually dealt with the EU commission and has some understanding of how they work?
There seems many exspurts on here.
I am dealing directly with the implications not the people. It's fascinating and a mile away IMO from what gets reported.
Behind the scenes, serious people doing serious work and a hell of a lot of planning and preparation already done. The point of equilibrium keeps shifting but ultimately things falling into place at least partially.
Helps to move on....
An interesting piece from CapX on why it really really is all about the money for the EU.
Receivers won't take less, givers won't provide more so the EU is going to be reliant on €10bn of new taxes from somewhere unless it can kick the can down the road (problem "solved" in EU parlance) by getting at least some money from the UK
https://capx.co/its-no-wonder-brussels-isnt-budging-over-the-brexit-bill
The Commission would prefer not to reduce expenditure since the structural funds and agricultural subsidies it distributes help to justify the EU’s existence. Besides, any new budget needs unanimous agreement, and Eastern European countries can be relied on to block cuts in their grants as surely as France will veto any reduction in farmers’ subsidies.
If reducing the budget is out of the question, the EU will have to increase its revenue. A “reflection paper”, issued by the European Commission in the summer, presented a number of ways that it could do this. The Commission takes it for granted that countries won’t increase the amounts they pay to Brussels under the current funding system and so needs to find new sources of money.
The EU only needs to clamp down a bit on its massive corruption loses :
http://www.politico.eu/article/corruption-costs-eu-990-billion-year-rand-study-fraud-funding/
Well MT there has been an awful lot of nonsense and misunderstanding from " We elect a PM" to unaccountable EU officials make laws 🙂
Well MT there has been an awful lot of nonsense and misunderstanding from " We elect a PM" to unaccountable EU officials make laws
I'm waiting for you to counter Jeremy Corbyns comments in the above video...
Mefty - I may well be wrong and feel free to correct me, but ...
Every member of the Cabinet has been elected other than the Leader of the House of Lords by their local electorate.
... as I recall several PMs have been Lords not commons and any member of the Lords can be a member of cabinet. Lords can be created without election - in fact it has been used in the past to get senior folk who lost their seats into the cabinet.
Feel free to show me I'm wrong.
Turnerguy - its the one reason I didn't describe 'cos its a very small amount. Some old fashioned lefties believe the EU would stop them making a leftwing government and there may be some point in that. I didn't watch the vid but thats basically Corbyns objection I believe.
so a 4th reason but a tiny part of the out vote
Very true IGM
Lord chancellors used to be always unelected but the current one is an MP. Loads of unelected ministers and officers of the government over the years from all parties
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/21/revealed-link-life-peerages-party-donations
An exhaustive study by Oxford academics has statistically proven the relationship between donations to parties and nominations for peerages
We are still living with the legacy of the Magna Carta, a popular uprising, that handed power to a hereditary elite, while the peasants who supported it paid the price, was dressed up as democracy in action too....
It all sounds rather familiar actually
The current Cabinet is wholly elected, other than the Leader of the House of Lords. This was also the case for the previous May administration and Cameron's, In fact the last Lord with an "outside" brief was Mandelson. Prior to Blair's vandalism the Lord Chancellor, one of the great officers of state, was by definition a Lord (and an eminent lawyer) as he was effectively the speaker of the HOL and the head of the justice system, which of course included the Law Lords then. Other than those two positions, the only Lords with outside briefs since 79 are Carrington, Young and Amos.
As you are no doubt aware conventions develop in our constitution and I don't think it likely, except in exceptional circumstances, that a Prime Minister will have a member of the House of Lords in the cabinet. A Lord hasn't been Prime Minister since the introduction of universal suffrage, our constitution has moved on a bit since then.
How many times do you need to be told mefty. Know your place........or at the very least respect the thread's rules
I am looking forward to when the HoL are suddenly persona grata when it looks as if they might cause the Brexit bill some trouble. They are rather like the French Football team without the prospect of any flair, consistent in their inconsistencies.
😀
Apple event live from California. Just amazing an American company can make stuff in China amd sell it to us. They are not even in the EU don't you know
I'm sure you claimed a while back that Apple were big benefactors of EU tax 'rules'.
Which was completely the opposite of the actual situation.
Elected TO the cabinet, or elected as MPs, and then appointed by the PM to their positions? And what about the other ministers? There are always Lords appointed as ministers.The current Cabinet is wholly elected
You are Robert Mugabe and I claim my £5
🙂
We are just rehashing the same stuff again and again though. Those arguments where made and came up short from a Remain perspective.
Remain lies
3 millions jobs [b]dependent[/b] on EU membership (nope research had used the phrase "associated with" - very different)
Peace in Europe is [b]due to[/b] the EEC / EU (nope 500,000 US and UK troops in Germany, nuclear deterents ... )
Leave vote will cause an immediate 20% decline in house prices (nope)
Leave vote will cause a UK recession deeper than the financial crises (nope we are atil growing)
Leave vote will lead to 500,000 jobs being lost over 3 (?) years (nope 160,000 jobs created since June 2016)
Leave vote will cause a global recession (nope, Europe doing quite well for them, US postive responce to The Donald)
We can remain in the EU but reform it (last 20 years shows otherwise, its only moving towards the superstate ie in the oppsite direction to Remains desired reforms)
Mefty - thank you. Everything you said there,is to the best of my knowledge, correct, so we are in agreement.
Actually I quite like the HoL as political representatives who don't have to worry about pandering to the electorate to ensure re-election have their place. Perhaps I favour a directly elected but for life HoL, but in all honesty just having different systems for choosing commons and lords is a good start.
Ultimately, our democracy is fundamentally flawed, but I challenge people to come up with a truly better system.
Apart from the peace thing, which is arguable, those are all bobbins. Quoted from where Jamba?
Actually, I'd support the reform claim as well, the EU is always reforming (see CAP and eastern expansion), but perhaps not in ways that you'd want.
Ultimately, our democracy is fundamentally flawed, but I challenge people to come up with a truly better system.
Bit like the great reform bill ??
Could you link those remain lies, Jamba, I cant find the ones that start "leave vote will", anywhere.
Don't be awkward with your facts now Kelvin. Remember the eu is an unelected dictatorship and our democracy is perfect. 🙄
The actual list of ministers who are not elected - some attend cabinet while not actually being officially cabinet members some are just junior ministers. Awkward facts
Earl Howe
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Lord Keen of Elie QC
Lord Nash
The Rt Hon Baroness Anelay of St Johns
Lord Prior of Brampton
Lord O'Shaughnessy
Lord Callanan
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Earl Howe
Baroness Evans
Lord Ian Duncan
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Bates
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Lord Keen of Elie
All these people are part of our government without being elected by anyone
https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers
Jamba - I am disgusted. You can not show that I compared you to Mugabe prior to June 23 2016. I am not rehashing that comparison. Retract or I may have to see you in court. 😉
More seriously, you've found a load of "remain lies" that I just don't recognise. Not sure where you found them.
Some I note are similar to statements made at the time. Even statements I made at the time. But nothing that has yet been shown to be untrue.
Perhaps you read less reputable news sources than I do. You do get some ridiculous statements on some of those blog type things like order/order. 😉
THM - no idea if the GRB is fundamentally flawed. Hopefully not.
Apples autocorrect is though.
Remain lies, did you really not follow the campaign ? Trotted out on a regular basis. The Armagedon Economic scenarios where in the Osbourne / HMT document - it had forumlas too - swoon .... Cameron for one placed great emphasis on peace in Europe as a result of the EU - used war cemeteries in a tv broadcast. The 3 million jobs was a favourite of Clegg.
[quote=mt ]I wonder who on here has actually dealt with the EU commission and has some understanding of how they work?
There seems many exspurts on here.
Guilty as charged! Spent 5 years co-ordinating input to DG VI (Agricultural Division of the Commission) in the form of EU funded research aimed at improving EU-wide agri-environmental policy.
Elected TO the cabinet, or elected as MPs, and then appointed by the PM to their positions? And what about the other ministers? There are always Lords appointed as ministers.
The latter, no major democracy has direct elections to cabinet. A fundamental point is that an elected representative is on the Executive. There is always a Lord in each department, so there is someone to lead that department's business through the House of Lord and so it is not just the Commons who can hold the department to account. The main exception being the Treasury as the Commons has financial privilege and the Lords can't amend money bills.
some attend cabinet
Other than Baroness Evans, the Leader of the House of Lords, who attends cabinet?
Jamba - the statements you made, with the bold emphasis you added, I do not recognise. However...
Some I note are similar to statements made at the time. Even statements I made at the time. But nothing that has yet been shown to be untrue.
The economic one as I recall was something like UK GDP 15% lower over the medium term that it would otherwise have been. Now I can't prove that right and you can't prove it wrong, but it's looking not unlikely.
On prevention of war, it was one of the original aims of European integration, and along with the ECHR and NATO it has been fairly successful. None of them would have worked on their own. And all have been under attack recently. Beware.
Now retract that statement about me rehashing the comparison of you and Mugabe. You know you want to. 😉
Mefty - a whole load of unelected ministers of the government. go along with the huge democratic deficit of FPTP where you get a majority on under 40% of the vote, along with a chamber that is wholly unelected and contains bishops and people there because their ancestors were pals of an invading army chief and the EU looks somewhat more democratic than Westminster don't it
🙂
Jambs problem is that he's (miss)quoting a load of Tories (whose austerity agenda led to the populist kickback of Brexshit) the lies of osborne & Cameron he once idolised never washed with us lefties anyway 😉
Mefty - a whole load of unelected ministers of the government. go along with the huge democratic deficit of FPTP where you get a majority on under 40% of the vote, along with a chamber that is wholly unelected and contains bishops and people there because their ancestors were pals of an invading army chief and the EU looks somewhat more democratic than Westminster don't it
So I guess the answer was no one, facts have never suited your arguments.
I really really hate brexit, but I can't blame them, brexiters have a right to an opinion, they've just been manipulated so badly and they are not intelligent enough and they are too proud to admit a mistake. But they are still humans.
It's truly tragic.
HOUSE!
Ultimately, our democracy is fundamentally flawed, but I challenge people to come up with a truly better system.
We have a system that is pretty much bipartisan and to be honest, it's getting a bit tiresome. It might as well be Democrats v GOP. YES, there has been the odd spike - SDP, LD surge in 2010 to mention a couple, bit for the greatest part, large chunks of the electorate are largely ignored in parliament. Fans of the status quo will tell you "because strong government" but actually little changes progressively. Successive Labour and Tory governments tinker with the previous administration's policies in the name of "change" while in reality nothing really happens at all.
I might like that UKIP have never had an MP elected under their banner, but I still think it's a shame that at their peak % of the national vote, their voters had no proper representation in parliament. In my own city, Bristol, there is a sizeable Tory vote, yet at the last election, the city returned no Tory MPs. Yes, this is funny, but it's not fair on the constituents.
Make constituencies larger, with [i]x[/i] MPs per constituency (factors in deciding how many TBC but population would be a good start). PR by STV meaning that voters have some hope of having a candidate of their party of preference be elected. It also allows voters the nuance of balancing their votes between "good constituency MPs", MPs of the party of choice and independents.
Combine this with more devolution to regions - if anything we need MPs to be allowed to consider things as a balance between local and national interest. We like our MPs to be "good constituency MPs" but then constituency MPs have to work as junior, senior ministers, the "big" jobs like CotE, HS, FS and PM. Where does that leave their connection to constituents? I admit, finding s balance between being a "good constituency MP" and a "good party MP" is going to be difficult but then they're the ones putting themselves up for it - so they'll have to work that out. if they do a good job, they'll be re-elected.
In any functioning western democracy, there will be deficits some of which need attention and some that really, we just have to live with. We can't elect everyone. Taken to absurdity, we'd be electing dog wardens. These deficits are the trade offs with which we have to live - trade-offs with which in general remainers have always lived when it comes to the EU (for sure, plenty of things could be improved) because despite the deficits in the EU, things have worked quite well. It sticks in the craw a little when I hear people waxing lyrical about "our" system complaining about the EU's democratic deficit - when, in reality, we're still at the mercy of our own deficits first and foremost.
a whole load of unelected ministers of the government
P5 has as a siimple table of where ministers have been drawn from since '79.
Recent Comservative PMs have a better record than some of relying on the commons.
It's all appointments though. I've never voted for (or even against) a member of the government.
Good thing as well, my local MP should be kept well away from power.
How could I have forgotten Adonis?
Mefty - the facts are that contrary to your assertions there are a significant number of unelected members of the government in the UK as I have shown and that the EU parliament is significantly more democratic than the UK one as the EU parliament has no unelected members, all decision makers have to be voted on by the parliament unlike the UK and the EU parliament by being PR based in more representative of its electorate than the UK One
these are the facts and contrary to your assertions
I'm bored of this now - its pointless debating with idealoges
mattyfez - MemberI really really hate brexit, but I can't blame them, brexiters have a right to an opinion, they've just been manipulated so badly and they are not intelligent enough and they are too proud to admit a mistake. But they are still humans.
It's truly tragic.
well said - better than I could say it
its pointless debating with idealoges
I agree, but unfortunately I voted remain.
[quote=mefty ]Every member of the Cabinet has been elected other than the Leader of the House of Lords by their local electorate. Both Jonathan Hill and Catherine Ashton have been senior EU officials without ever winning a significant election in their own right in their whole lives - no elected office at all, not even a councillor.
Can I just check - are you referring to the Jonathon Hill who was Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Leader of the House of Lords, and the Catherine Ashton who was Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Department for Education and Skills and the Ministry of Justice, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council? Just for information purposes...
[quoteI'm bored of this now - its pointless debating with idealoges
Hehe.. irony alert...
I agree, but unfortunately I voted remain.
😀
I agree, but unfortunately I voted remain.
It's not unfortunate Mefty. Everyone needs some redeeming reatures... 😉
Junker BS Bingo - "is it too early for a tipple" 🙂
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Blog of his speech here if you can stand it
Actually he told erdogan & turkey to fk off!
Johnson & Gove were definitely lying when they stirred up the xenophobia pot with warnings of evil Turks coming here
Actually he told erdogan & turkey to fk off!
You mean they're not joining next year? 😯
Does that mean the 5 billion Turkish rapists won't be coming over and getting their free council houses then?
Phew!
Does that mean the 5 billion Turkish rapists won't be coming over and getting their free council houses then?Phew!
And if it does, the EU Army will stop them anyway. If it can afford guns after the Eurozone meltdown...which is happening on Monday.
#DespiteBrexit
Unemployment falls again, now 4.3%
@kimbers French held an opinion poll on Turkey joining, 80% against. Sound familiar
No one is joining the EU anytime soon. With a massive budget problem to solve (read CapX above) they simply can't afford more takers
No one is joining the EU anytime soon. With a massive budget problem to solve (read CapX above) they simply can't afford more takers
but you said they would, it was only a matter of time!!
Employment figures are only one measure..
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/nuffield-trust-responds-to-nurse-shortage-warning
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-nurse-shortage-40000-post-brexit-trusts-hospitals-uk-healthcare-leaked-government-a7671791.html
Found 400,000 nurses?
If you want to sort your hashtag try #DespiteA50BeingTriggered save the Brexit one for if or when that happens.
Seeing as unemployment was at near record lows anyway it would take a massive collapse to send it the other way quickly, perhaps it's falling due to people upping and leaving before they have to.
#DespiteBrexitUnemployment falls again, now 4.3%
Yup, because people are forced into very low paid, insecure work. Also, ATOS or whatever it's calling itself these days has been handed targets to ensure that profoundly and chronically sick and/or disabled people are sent to work, regardless of their personal circumstances.
A pyrrhic victory at best.
#DespiteBrexitUnemployment falls again, now 4.3%
Given we are still in the EU and unemployment is falling, surely this is an argument for staying.
You could at least wait until the Government announces what will be happening when we leave, which for some reason they have still failed to do (WTO rules? transiation period? etc..)
He ruled out Turkey’s accession to the EU in the foreseeable future ....
Oh.
Juncker said he intended to start trade talks with Australia and New Zealand...
Oh.
And all he said about Brexit is "it's a shame but we're moving on".
Mind you he also thinks it's "the will of the people" so he's not that clued up.
Juncker said he intended to start trade talks with Australia and New Zealand...
Oh.
🙂
Well, the EU will have to wait as I'm sure Australia and NZ would rather sign a super-quick trade deal over a few beers with one of the big players like the UK first.
Iain Duncan Smith is being interviewed on Five Live
Dear God! There's a man who makes David Davis look like a towering intellectual colossus fully in control of his brief, who commands reverence and respect throughout Europe.
What a total arse-wit. Truly as thick as mince!
These Hardline Brexit loons do seriously seem to firmly believe that by playing a game of chicken, that the day before we crash out, the EU is somehow going to cave in and agree to the whole 'have cake and eat it' deal!
I find it terrifying that these headcases are dictating government policy in something as crucial as this.
I think they've given as much thought as to what happens if the EU don't blink first as Dave had given to what happened the next day if he actually lost the referendum. ie: none whatsoever!
But then I suppose that, Just like Dave, you can afford to be so breathtakingly complacent and arrogant when your wealth and position safely insulate you from the consequences of the monumental **** ups you rain down on the lives of the 'Little People'!
Heard that too binbins - what a massive knobclanger.
Notice him parroting the new Brexit line - Germany will save us after their election.
Speaking of which, here's Nige addressing AfD the other day. Whinging about EU flags at the proms while addressing a far right political party. You couldn't make him up.
[img] 
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Oh LOLz at Juncker trolling Brexiteers.
[img] 
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And spot the slight difference in the French (and German) version.
[img] 
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Notice him parroting the new Brexit line - Germany will save us after their election.Speaking of which, here's Nige addressing AfD the other day. Whinging about EU flags at the proms while addressing a far right political party. You couldn't make him up.
It is hilarious that the Brexiters are now dependant on Germany from saving them from their own stupidity!
I thought it was us remoaners who couldnt let go, but the Brexies/ Tories are obsessed with contunially pumping out the same BS to the public, rather than being honest and admitting that compromises will have to be made all round
deadlydarcy - MemberHeard that too binbins - what a massive knobclanger.
that's a very affectionate saluation, are you two in a 'relationship', as well as double-teaming on this thread ?
We're very much in love
Is that relevant?
Anyway... have a listen to IDS's interview. I'd challenge anyone with anything between their ears to listen to it and feel anything other than a sense of impending doom that him, Redwood and the rest of the moon-units on the far right/loony tunes fringe of the Tory party are presently setting the Brexit agenda
The lunatics have truly taken over the asylum.
Remember when what now seems like a very very long time ago when Dave referred to UKIP as "fruitcakes", "loonies" and "closet racists"?
Have a look at those presently setting the Tory party/Government policy?
Ironic, isn't it?
Cheers Dave!
[img] 
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Unemployment falls again, now 4.3%
[url= http://newsthump.com/2017/03/15/worker-on-zero-hour-contract-doing-zero-hours-delighted-hes-not-in-unemployed-figures/ ]Worker on zero-hour contract doing zero hours delighted he’s not in unemployed figures[/url]
[quote=binners ]Anyway... have a listen to IDS's interview. I'd challenge anyone with anything between their ears to listen to it [s]and feel anything other than a sense of impending doom that him, Redwood and the rest of the moon-units on the far right/loony tunes fringe of the Tory party are presently setting the Brexit agenda[/s]
One difficult task at a time.
Wheels off the DUP/ Tory alliance already 😆
Who will bet me that UK signs a free trade deal with Australia and NZ before he EU, £10 any takers ?
As many comemtators have pointed out the EU's €50bn-€100bn "Brexit Bill" shows the real cost of staying IN the EU
As for Turkey I don't recall anyone saying they would join "next year or even soon". Leave just pointed out they where in negotiations to join. As above Junker has NOT ruled out them joining. It was a legitimate issue as Leavers well knew we'd never be asked about them joining via a Referendum and we'd never get another Remain/Leave vote before they did either.
Junker will be remembered only as the man who lost the UK, probably whilst in a drunken stupor. At least the PM of Malta was honest enough to say it was a disaster the EU should have seen coming. Junker bet on Remain with his non-negotiation with Cameron and lost.
@Boarding it's a non-binding nothing vote. In any case May will lift the pay cap on the NHS before the next GE. Obvious that's going to happen, electoral politics
@slowoldman zero hours contracts need to be dealt with (my Son in Law is on one and is very happy with it so its bot all doom and gloom). Anyay 4.% UK unemployment of 9.75% in France with 20% youth unemployment. Also zero hours contracts MUCH easier to enforce when you have unlimited cheap and willing labour from the EU