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but he was a toff, OD and a Tory so obviously was out to stuff the poor and unskilled to protect his mates obviously
You missed out pig-f*****r.
That's why [i]you[/i] lot lost it.... (less of the we shit ifn yer doesn't mind sunshine... 😉 )
"You lot"???? I didn't have you down as a leaver metal head. Every day is a learning day.
indigenous unskilled would have more jobs and a better quality of life? Don't remember that THM?
Sorry I didn't give Corbyn's views much traction. But your right, the labour view is very much that (hidden or otherwise) with the pretence that membership is good for workers rights to fool both sides.
Still we now have pro-EU Macron arguing Labour's corner for them. Good on' protectionism, a French special
THM - what I mean is the whole debacle was fumbled from the get go by the pig-f*****r in general, calling a referendum that wasn't required just to try and appease some Tory schism. [i]That's[/i] why we're in the (brex)shit
So, [i]your[/i] lot lost it. Don't go dragging [b]us[/b] into it.... 😆
Im holding you personally responsible 😉
Damn right. Labour might be as useful as a chocolate teapot but it's the Tories who have actually ****ed up the country.
Fun headline I saw yesterday: "Brexit, Britain's worst foreign policy since the War of US Independence".
and this ... 😀
you gotta laugh eh?
[img] 
[/img]
Metal heart - i don't care what you hold, but don't go labelling me falsely. I have no party allegiance at all. As you can see from the start of this thread, I thought the whole idea was flawed from the beginning. How can you vote on something that isn't going to exist in its current format in the future. Absurd waste or time and money.
But WE - those who were arguing to remain - still lost and therefore we SHOULD be able to take responsibility rather than SHIRK it. The latter is a modern trend, granted. It's like blaming the Engkish....
Sorry THM, the pig-f****r ****-ed it up due to a Tory schism, it was **** all to do with me (or the scots for that matter). Then the old PF ran away... talk about shirking.
Jeez, you want me to take responsibility for the Holocaust because 'we' appeased Hitler?
I'm laying blame, because, after all, it was [i]his[/i] fault.
And labelling falsely, this started because you falsely labelled me as a leaver. Let he who is without sin, etc. :p
Oh, I can honestly say, I've never blamed the [i]Engkish[/i] for anything. Ever 😆
😯
But WE - those who were arguing to remain - still lost and therefore we SHOULD be able to take responsibility rather than SHIRK it.
No-one is reponsible for something they fought against and continue to fight againt however meager their efforts. History has never held the maquisards responsible for the acts of the Vichy government.
Sobotage anything overtly pro-Brexit.
But WE - those who were arguing to remain - still lost and therefore we SHOULD be able to take responsibility rather than SHIRK it.
THM - you're going to have to do that one again. Slowly.
Responsibility for what? Arguing an open and shut case badly? The mess that the referendum has left us in? (Unlike you I'm actually surprised at how bad it's looking at the moment prior to us actually leaving)
Or perhaps in a democracy it is everyone's responsibility to espouse and support the causes they believe in?
It is I think a democratic obligation to continue to oppose Brexit - unless the Brexies manage to do something to convince me that Brexit is a good thing in which case I'll join them.
Mods can Edukator have reformed troll removed and voice of reason inserted?
My responsibility ends at the bigoted brexiteers' ****witted refusal to listen to reason or think for themselves.
It is I think a democratic obligation to continue to oppose Brexit - unless the Brexies manage to do something to convince me that Brexit is a good thing in which case I'll join them.
I keep on asking and have yet to find anyone who can tell me the benefits gained by leaving that outweigh the benefits lost by staying. Just spouting about immigration, which was a WM issue and sovereignty which was never lost.
Unlike you I'm actually surprised at how bad it's looking at the moment prior to us actually leaving)
I'm really starting to think that Davis (constructive ambiguity ffs!) & co are setting us up for a hard Brexit, rather than admit the truth to the voters they are lining us up for a fall & obvs it'll all be the evil Eurocrats to blame
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4316796/david-davis-set-to-launch-battle-plan-against-eu/
I know it's in the scum, but I'm sure the telegraph, mail etc will all be lining us up for how its all the EUs fault too
Just can't decide if it's cowardice in the face of a challenge they can't handle, pure arrogance or just plain stupidity, probably all 3?
...aaand Starmer steps up as the voice of reason
Responsibility for what? Arguing an open and shut case badly?
Exactly. We did a bad job. Whining on about opposing Brexshit now is simply sad.
We had our chance but blew it. Now we have to live with the consequences of our failure. Tough as that may sound and anti modern thinking about not accepting responsibility for actions
With the EU playing their classic non negotiating tactic and our inability to present a united front the likelihood of a bad outcome increases by the day. That's absurd and the weight of that responsibility will weigh even heavier than our inability to convince people not to leave. We could shirk that too, and just bury our heads in the sand though.
Nah not giving up THM , it's not over until the fat lady has sung, as hard as it is there's still a chance to stop the self harm!
So in your heart of hearts do you think that we will not leave the EU?
No I'm resigned to it but I'll fight em on the beaches etc.
Seeing the harm already being done to science as some very good researchers are returning to the EU already, I can only see it damaging the country for my kids!
It's worth challenging em to the last.
Exactly. We did a bad job. Whining on about opposing Brexshit now is simply sad.We had our chance but blew it. Now we have to live with the consequences of our failure. Tough as that may sound and anti modern thinking about not accepting responsibility for actions
Rolling over at this point presents the current shambolic tory minority with a mandate to do whatever they want. At this point they know they have to get something at least half decent and when 2 years comes around if there is a sniff of no confidence (there will be) it will be the true 2nd referendum on the topic. Until the papers are signed the UK hasn't sent itself to the gallows. Providing a robust opposition to the current government is key to that.
A second referendum infantilises the electorate, teaching them that their votes do not have real world effects and that poor political choices don't matter.
Long term that's just as bad for the nation as the damage that leaving the EU will inflict.
A second referendum infantilises the electorate, teaching them that their votes do not have real world effects and that poor political choices don't matter.
No it doesn't. Same as punishment doesn't stop crime.
What I said was an election following the collapse of the very expensive minority Tory government around the time of the end of the negotiations (which won't be looking good) could enable a party to stand on the tactical withdrawal from the A50 process. That isn't a second referendum.
Would you sacrifice the long term furure of the country for teaching people a lesson?
Would you sacrifice the long term furure of the country for teaching people a lesson?
I would say it's more the tories willing to sacrifice the long term future of the country simply to stop their party tearing itself apart. They are that selfish
THM, what exactly are "we" supposed to be doing to ensure a good brexit when a year and more down the line this shambles of a govt can't come up with anything resembling a plan?
Is mindlessly cheerleading May and co all you can offer or do you have a more useful suggestion? I'm all ears.
If remainers really want a change of government it's easy to achieve. Simply stop spending on anything not needed to stay alive. And when you buy stuff that's needed to stay alive buy EU where possible. The economic impact would be enough to bring down a government with a majority held up by an alliance with the DUP. It just needs someone with enough weight on Facebook, Twitter and so on to launch the campaign.
STW might be big enough to start the movement, start spreading the word folks.
STOP SPENDING TO STOP BREXIT
No no no. What they should really do is buy up all the aubergines. Just imagine the chaos.
Is labour's new position the resultof lengthy debate and analysis or have they (hopefully) seen that the wind is changing?
Resistance is NOT futile.
As has been said, rolling over will give the Brexiteers tacit agreement to rough road us any way they see fit!
Don't forget Brexit means brexit means fracking means cuts means more Tory hatred.
Is labour's new position the resultof lengthy debate and analysis or have they (hopefully) seen that the wind is changing?
I think that they took a look at the GE results and saw they picked up a lot of votes from Remainers, and particularly the internationalist young, who don't want their options shut down by the old with their faux nostalgia and no skin in the game, and Lab are following up on that.
Quitters like to harp on about how the GE result was a massive endorsement of hard Brexit because that was the platform of the 2 major parties (85% of the vote). Technically that's true but it's also to be in denial that the electorate was given no viable choice so a lot of Labour votes were proxies for Remain.
Most hardcore Quitters voted ConservaKIP anyway. There is only upside for Labour here.
The generational gap is key here. And as the tory cluster**** continues it deepens.
The young grew up with people from other nations alongside them in school.
The old think they're exceptional because they "won" WW2 (tho actually 99% were children or not born) and, having had the benefit of 40 years membership, have decided to deny it to those behind them.
Resistance is NOT futile.
Word.
This is nowhere near over.
We had our chance but blew it. Now we have to live with the consequences of our failure. Tough as that may sound and anti modern thinking about not accepting responsibility for actions
Our responsibility is to work even harder to stop Brexit.
Personally at present I'm doing my bit by spending all my holidays in the Alps
Demographics favour the remainers, as the bitter old brexiters shuffle off to the great 1950's theme park in the sky.
Corbyn has clearly cottoned on to the fact that ion this subject, young people are so rightfully angry about the threat to their futures, that it's done away with their previous electoral complacency.
Everyone knows this present May/DUP coalition farce is totally unsustainable. The Labour Party obviously senses that a clearly non-mental stance on the EU will get them over the line at the inevitable early election
Is labour's new position the resultof lengthy debate and analysis or have they (hopefully) seen that the wind is changing?
I think they've simply realised there's more votes to gain than lose by being pro single market.
Thier 'respect the referendum results' policy leaves them too close to tory policy to make any real ground up given brexit policy is probably the most critical political issue currently.
A second referendum infantilises the electorate, teaching them that their votes do not have real world effects and that poor political choices don't matter.
I disagree, it depends on whether people are too proud to consider that maybe they got it wrong.
It takes courage to say, you know what, that was maybe not a great decision, and there's no shame in changing your mind once you are better informed.
Whether many people's egos can cope with that is a different matter, I suspect many would rather cope with the consequences of a bad decision rather than entertain the thought that they might have made a poor judgement.
Thats not just brexit, that goes for general peoples decision-making, I know many that would sooner suffer than take a hit to the ego and admit fault.
I disagree, it depends on whether people are too proud to consider that maybe they got it wrong.
They're too proud. And stupid. Proud, stupid and xenophobic.
People won't change their votes but some might not vote and other non-voters might bother to. But I'm certainly not angling for a new referendum.
Thier 'respect the referendum results' policy leaves them too close to tory policy to make any real ground up given brexit policy is probably the most critical political issue currently.
The differentiator is approach to negotiation.
Tories know their case is hopeless and are stirring up emnity with the EU to please Murdoch, Dacre and that cohort. Personally I think they're planning to walk out once the figure is on the table.
Corbyn's Labour are, I think, capable of a dialogue. Leave is still the likely outcome, but hopefully on more of a partnership basis, with the door left open a chink, than antagonistic.
Personally I'd rather remain but I pick partnership over antagonism.
oops, double post, most odd!
It does seem that the tories are back peddling at a rate just slow enough not to push the rabid isolationalists of the electorate too hard or too fast.
Whilst simultaneously trying not to piss Europe past the point of a full relationship breakdown.
Or maybe I'm giving them too much credit, maybe they are just criminaly incompetent. The tory game plan is unclear.
They're too proud. And stupid. Proud, stupid and xenophobic.
Not all of them. Electorally speaking there were a handful of votes in this, assuming majority is the decider on the mythical second referendum.
The tory game plan is unclear.
They're banking they can get it through on the backs of the old before the young outnumber them.
Then the next generations grow up in Farage's Britain with nationalism the key theme. The current internationalist cohort become a blip.
It's party before country, shamelessly.
What's going to be interesting, once they're all back off their hols, is whether labours change of position emboldens the less swivel-eyed in the Tory party to start rebelling against the present confused, hardline nonsense that passes for government policy
Given that May has no majority and absolutely zero authority, let's hope so
A full-scale rats-in-a-sack civil war within the party isn't inconceivable
Yeah Binners. It's not going to be dull!
The brexiteers within the Tory ranks make a lot of noise, but the vast majority of the parties MPs were staunch remainers.
And a lot of them represent metropolitan seats that are also pro-remain. And then theres the issue of funding. The business leaders who traditionally fund the party must be looking on in horror at the potential economic damage to their incomes inherent in the present suicidal hard Brexit approach. I doubt they'll be shy about pointing this out
Murdoch and Dacre might strike fear into the Tory leadership but I suspect not as much as upsetting the people who write the cheques. And those people now have a party which actually best represents their economic interests
Let's just stop and have a think about that for a minute, shall we? The Labour Party, led by supposed arch-socialist Corbyn is now more closely aligned with the interests of the boardrooms and bankers than an increasingly unhinged Tory 'leadership'
I predict all hell breaking loose within the party after the parliamentary recess, because that situation simply can't hold, especially given the leadership vacuum at the top
Yeh I think that's pretty accurate binners.
I suspect there's quite a few lower rank than front bench tories who will rebel if they thought they could get away with it without getting the sack.
Given Mays non-majority, and the resentment at her total electoral balls up, it only needs to be a handful, and this whole thing is dead in the water
Given the fiercely pro-EU opinions of people like Anna Sourby and Nikki Morgan regarding Brexit, I doubt they'll be in the mood to be doing May, Boris, Liam and Dave any favours
Yes. well played Starmer, and I do think it's Starmer.
Edukator - Reformed Troll
If remainers really want a change of government it's easy to achieve. Simply stop spending on anything not needed to stay alive. And when you buy stuff that's needed to stay alive buy EU where possible. The economic impact would be enough to bring down a government with a majority held up by an alliance with the DUP. It just needs someone with enough weight on Facebook, Twitter and so on to launch the campaign.STW might be big enough to start the movement, start spreading the word folks.
STOP SPENDING TO STOP BREXIT
Edukator nails it - humour (even weak humour) is the way forward. Just keep cracking these kind of jokes every time we meet a European. They will be in stiltches and unable to negotiate. Where's Baldrick when you need him...
We had our chance but blew it. Now we have to live with the consequences of our failure.
No you don't. There's absolutely no reason why a second referendum can't be held.
Now the appalling consequences are revealed, on top of the original peddling of lies that by itself invalidates the original vote, there's every justification for doing it again.
All it would take is a political party with the balls to take a stand on the issue...
There's absolutely no reason why a second referendum can't be held.
All it would take is a political party with the balls to take a stand on the issue...
So, what you mean is there's only *one* reason a second referendum can't be held.
Perhaps some polling on the subject might embolden the requisite political support...
[url= https://www.google.es/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/08/14/democrat-party-may-be-launched-in-the-uk-to-fight-brexit.html ]Perhaps this lot[/url]
And what happens if we lose that one? Or it's 50:50?
Sorry but it's time to grow a pair. We are giving up membership of the EU. It's happening. The only issue is the terms under which will will continue to have access to the single market and vice versa. Admittedly a very complex issue that has not been done before. So heads down and get cracking.
The idea that the Labour Party represents a source of salvation is as amusing as Edukator's cunning plan. They are as spilt as the Tories if not more and have a genuinely euro phobic leader rather than a pretend one.Plus there are even fewer competents on their front bench than on the government's - which is quite something in itself. Hard to imagine really.
"Grow a pair"?
What are you, 15?
All it takes is for people to use their economic power to bring about the change they want, THM.
If enough people stop their discretionary spending for a few months the impact on GDP and business will have May's pay masters screaming at her.
Around 40% of my spending is discretionary. There's maybe 10% of fixed outgoings (I don't intend to starve) that I can choose the origin of the goods.
If only those motivated enough by remain to have gone out and voted for it have a STOP SPENDING TO STOP BREXIT campaign we can wipe enough points off GDP to bring pain to those in a position to pressure government.
You were being serious?!? Sorry, I missed that first time round. Let me re-read and respond appropriately.
"Grow a pair"
I'd rather we grew our brains.
Perhaps the most amusing aspect of this thread is seeing THM's determination to be on the losing side twice in a row. First by supporting remain pre-referendum, and now by supporting brexit long after any intelligent analysis shows it to be a hare-brained and wholly impractical proposition which is ultimately doomed to failure.
Glad to amuse. 😉
Of course, the "intelligent" analysis and response is to respond to what is in front of you not what you wish was in front of you. In this case, two different things. That is not the same as supporting Brexshit as "semi-intelligent" analysis would reveal. 😉
The only "losers" - in the real sense - will be those who can't move on and stay hung up in our collective failure to make a case for remain. The winners will be those who move on and adapt to the new world in front of us. Of course, the irony IS that many who voted for Brexshit will not be able to adapt either but that is where individual responsibility comes into it.
(Still there are those who still continue to blame one woman for the demise of their uncompetitive industries 30-40 years ago. Learn the lessons of history and adapt or.....you decide....)
Ed, if we stopped spending then huge numbers of private businesses run by individuals supplying the stuff we buy would face serious difficulties.
THM - it wasn't necessarily what she did - it was the way she did it.
It was happening anyway - "she" was an easy scapegoat and an -ism that was a myth. Rather like austerity. We will get through Brexshit as we got through her. But only if we look forward and adapt to survive
So anti EU folk should have just accepted membership?
Anything else people should just accept and get on with, the present goverment?
Exactly Molgrips, and they'd start lobbying their MPs.
A lot of losers will be people who have planned, executed those plans and been successful thanks to the UK's membership of the EU, THM. Their lives have been sabotaged by Brexiters.
SABOTAGE BREXIT.
We will all have an opportunity to asses the present government in due time, perhaps earlier than expected. That's how it works. But it could be some time before we have another EU vote and the EU will be a very different beast by then anyway. In the meantime.... Your choice....
Exactly Molgrips, and they'd start lobbying their MPs.
That would take far too long, they'd be out of business within a month.
I'd like to sabotage Brexit, but I don't think that's the way.
I think they'd be out on the streets before they went out of business. Or I hope they would.
Edukator so when the "no purchasing" strategy fails what next terrorism ?
We've had a Referendum (with all the cards and rescources stacked in Remain's favour), triggering of A50 with a huge majority and a GE fought with pro Brexit Manifestos dominating the results and the pro-Remain parties humiliated. Yet still the Remainers are trying to derail the process. At least that anti-democratic stance is consistent with the behaviour of the EU itself
Edukator I see all those people who voted against Le Pen are voicing their displeasure at Macron, after all they did not vote [b]for[/b] him or his agenda. Can you imagine the unrest if it looks like French agriculture will not have tariff free access to the UK post April 2019. The CGT are already planning major disruptions in responce to Macron's labour law reforms.
triggering of A50 with a huge majority
😆
#jambafact
. Can you imagine the unrest if it looks like French agriculture will not have tariff free access to the UK post April 2019
French wine already has huge (totally unreasonable) taxes slapped on it by the UK before it is sold. So surely no change then?
Perhaps we can instead try imagining the outcry if UK consumers will have to pay more for French cheese?
#jambafact
Quite.
Edukator so when the "no purchasing" strategy fails what next terrorism ?
No.
It was a Brexiter who murdered Jo Cox.
I see all those people who voted against Le Pen are voicing their displeasure at Macron, after all they did not vote for him or his agenda
they can voice their displeasure all they want. and work to change the outcome to what they want too.
just like we are.
why should they not?
After Brexit I think I shall become a cheese smuggler, ferrying illicit supplies of French cheese across the Irish border into Northern Ireland, and from there a short hop across to Scotland, to avoid the Brexit import duties.
Brie, Camembert, Gorgonzola. And of course Bleu d’Auvergne.
I should be fine so long as they don't introduce sniffer dogs at Stranraer.
Edukator so when the "no purchasing" strategy fails what next terrorism ?
How about slogging it out politically, that is what UKIP et al did, remember the words of your hero and leader "if it's that close we should have another one"
Those so keen to push it all through seem to either have their own motives or be able to live with the impact (or be delusional) it's part of the wonderful world of democracy that the people can effect change to the government.
I'd still put money on the population being consulted as to the final deal on offer through this current government collapsing and the EU offering an olive branch option. That is in everyone's best interest.
As said a few times rollin over and letting DD balls it all up by thinking he is in a stronger position is not in any bodies interest.
The trouble is, leavers will never tolerate a second referendum because too many of them think they'd lose. Even Jamba admits that. It only needs a small swing of people who voted fantasy brexit but don't like the actual brexit offered- it's the difference between saying "let's go to this restaurant" and ordering something you hate once you're in there.
It was a Brexiter who murdered Jo Cox.
FFS that is one of the saddest posts on this whole thread. 😯
FFS that is one of the saddest posts on this whole thread.
This wasn't all that far behind...
Edukator so when the "no purchasing" strategy fails what next terrorism ?