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yes but if it changes time whilst remaining broken its right more often 😉
Manages just fine how?
the thing is we can probably all understand why Mexico ,for example, does not need to be in the Eu and manages fine without it. The problem is when we look at Europe it is much harder to see an example of a nation that has decided it can manage just fine outside the Eu with no formal trade arrangement with it after royally pissing them off.
What country within europe , that is doing fine, is your model based on jamby?
Its hubris wrapped up in ignorance and insulated from reality by your politics
What country within europe , that is doing fine, is your model based on jamby?
Junky - why do you criticise folk for responding to chewy, and yet you respond to jamba? Do you think one is more credible than the other??
Its a fair point but i think Jamby actually believes what he types and whilst neither has great credibility in my eyes Jambys "untruths" - is there a number of times he repeats them when we can say lies ?- sometimes have to be challenged for they are just factually untrue.
When I stopped responding to chewkw - and i have not read any of his posts for a few years ish at a guess - it was all zombie maggots and glocks and a stream of gibberish * so its hard to know what he thought never mind whether he believes it- he may be more rational now as I cannot see how he got less rational.
Jamby I think does actually believe what he writes so it should be challenged but its still a fair comment that you make and I am happy to join in a forum wide boycott though 😈
I agree its fair to say he will not be changing his mind - insert lame 150 joke here.
ninfan wants a reaction and does not believe what he says so again I dont bother to challenge his stuff generally.
* yes I know
Which European countries aren't in EFTA, EU, Schegen etc.
The way of the world is consolidation. economies of scale, pooling of resources. running away isn't going to stop the world just make us poorer.
Ah so we're into the realms of "I reckon".
Ah so we're into the realms of "I reckon".
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[quote=slowoldman ]Ah so we're into the realms of "I reckon".
twas ever thus
And in other news:
Dominic Cummings, the man who masterminded Vote Leave's winning strategy, has described the MPs he worked with as "particularly unbalanced
[url= http://news.sky.com/story/eurosceptic-mps-particularly-unbalanced-says-former-vote-leave-campaigner-10926431 ]Sky News[/url]
Just the sort of guys we need onboard guiding the good ship UK thru the straits of brexit.
The rest of the world manages just fine not being in the EU
Translation:
The rest of the world that has enough purchasing power for Jamby to give a toss about.
Everyone else? Well, they don't matter - except as a bottomless pool of cheap labour kept motivated by having to work 18 hours a day, seven days a week to not starve.
Sometimes a poster's glib asides reveal more about their attitude than any carefully worded posts or cut and pastes of graphs.
Presumably the 'business model' of Nazi Germany's V2 rocket programme is what should be aspired to on a global level?
Lovely quote from that Dominic Cummings interview:
He believes the selecÂtion processes and the incentive structures within parties mean that the wrong kind of people are attracted to becoming MPs, who "to a large extent are not particularly bright, are egomaniacs and they want to be on TV."
I am not sure one had to work with them to realise this
So 1 billion of tax payer money to prop up the Tories in power and the tail will wag the dog.....it's a sad day.
There certainly seems to be a talent vacuum at the top of the Conservative party. They're out of ideas, their ideology is rapidly falling out of favour with the government and their quid pro quo agreement with the right-wing media seems to be more of a hindrance than a help. No-one wants to be the Tory PM who leads the nation into economic disaster, or to rock the boat during negotiations with the EU. The idea that we can Leave, roll back as much legislation as possible and ask a swathe of the population to be poorer, in less secure jobs and to pay [s]more[/s] for unemployment insurance, sickness insurance, private healthcare, even more for housing and to simply be happy to be told "you've never had it so good" by Murdoch and Dacre should be ludicrous to all but the most fanatical Tory.
It's obvious that the Tory-right are pushing for as hard a Brexit as possible, any breakdown in negotiations will be sold to the electorate as EU intransigence. However, Matthew Parris in today's Times is calling for the conservatives to tear up Article 50 and opt to remain in the EU. It's fast becoming the least worst option. The alternative could well be that the Conservatives split and the rump parties remain unelectable for generations.
The alternative could well be that the Conservatives split and the rump parties remain unelectable for generations.
So there is a positive after all.
To anyone that has thought about it for more than a minute, staying in the EU is clearly the least worst option. Just need someone to be strong enough to say to **** with the will of the people.
stop teasing me! 😆PJM1974 - Member
The alternative could well be that the Conservatives split and the rump parties remain unelectable for generations.
Just need someone to be strong enough to say to **** with the will of the people.
Can you imagine the hate the mail, sun and telegraph would come up with?
This may be inaccessible behind a paywall, but the increasingly Hard Brexit Telegraph printed this:
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2017/06/24/lettersthe-conservatives-must-split-else-tear-apart-brexit/ ]Conservatives and Brexit[/url]
And Conservative Home's comment that more must be done to appease Remain voters in the home counties:
[url= http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/06/why-a-former-coalition-minister-could-be-attractive-to-some-tory-voters-as-liberal-democrat-leader.html ]Here[/url]
Oh, and Gideon's newspaper is at it too:
[url= http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/letters/es-views-letter-of-the-day-the-tories-will-have-to-split-over-the-eu-a3565201.html ]Eve-knee Stannit[/url]
Oh and I'm a home county dwelling fully paid up member of the middle classes who'd love to see the Conservatives falling into an existential crisis which splits the press.
There certainly seems to be a talent vacuum at the top of the Conservative party.
Talent vacuum in British politics.
The alternative could well be that the Conservatives split and the rump parties remain unelectable for generations.
Stay in the EU or the Tory party becomes unelectable for decades.....
f*** now that is a hard decision.
I'd love to see the Liberals back.
A credible 3rd choice is desperately needed, I for one trust neither Tories with their hard right element nor Labour with its hard left.
Unfortunately their legacy with pledges and lines in the sand is such that there credibility is shot- I imagine for at least a generation.
TBH i am not sure when we last ad a credible third choice - about a century ?
3.2 millions eu immigrants allowed to stay, must be a few Brexiters very disappointed they are not being Sent home.
Indeed JY.
Labour aren't hard left.
the tories are not really hard right either
There are elements in both party's, which for me, occupy the harder left & right respectively.
For that I trust neither.
A Tory split is looking increasingly likely unless they want to be out of power for a generation. They're simply no longer fit for purpose now globalisation is among us and we've moved to be much more socially liberal over the last 20+ years.
I have to say it's not something I ever expected to see after Tony Blair was forced to push Labour to the Right as Maggie had done such a solid job in moving the country to the Right...
Interesting times. My deep Blue Tory parents will be bereft however.
It seems to me the very obvious and very massive elephant in the room is the opportunity for a new party who are economically right of centre (create the wealth in a responsible, sustainable manner so it can then be distributed more evenly), but socially liberal with a huge chunk of seeking a more equal society, a la Macron/En Marche. They'd mop up a huge proportion of the electorate - the more liberal old, a big chunk of the middle aged and loads of the young...
Who's going to step up and do it?
dissonance - Member
Just need someone to be strong enough to say to **** with the will of the people.Can you imagine the hate the mail, sun and telegraph would come up with?
POSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Strangely enough I couldn't give a shit was those comics think.
3.2 millions eu immigrants allowed to stay, must be a few Brexiters very disappointed they are not being Sent home.
My line manager voted Brexit because she thinks we have too many immigrants. She has, however, happily sold her overpriced house to a bunch of Kuwaitis. That's how principled and adult the anti-immigrant lot really are...
A credible 3rd choice is desperately needed,
You might do, I am quite happy with Corbyn's Labour party.
She has, however, happily sold her overpriced house to a bunch of Kuwaitis
But they are the good immigrants with money, we obviously want those ones.
You might do, I am quite happy with Corbyn's Labour party.
I'm not. The party needs to get to the centre to win. It would have walked the last election considering the absolute shower of sh*t the tories were.
Indeed, a genuinely central party is far less polarising than a party that stands either to te right or the left.
It maybe a compromise but it's a compromise that only upsets those at the edges of our political spectrum...IMHO.
In the sense that 80-90 % of the electorate unite in disliking it ?
essentially you are middle of the road and the electorate is not - as shown by your lack of electoral success over the last 100 years- and the compromise only pleases those who can only muster 10% of the electorate
I wish you luck in persuading folk that your vision is the best as so far it has fallen somewhat flat.
& I it puzzles me no end as to why that is....
It must be a societal thing rather than a political thing - after all haven't a liberal party just won in France?
Am I right in saying Macron is liberal?
as so far it has fallen somewhat flat.
so far yes but.... the times, they are a-changin' as per all the talk at the moment. What's different this time is we've finally realised that 2008 crash was not the source of the problem but the problem making itself known i.e. we've had our time and we've been living on money borrowed from the future for too long.
Labour and Tory parties worked well enough when UK was leading the world but increasingly global leadership has to be shared with China and India, plus quite likely Africa, and we have to learn to adapt to a globalised world in which we are merely one of many. Therefore working with our trading partners and compromising will become essential if we want to maintain power and influence (in part what the EU was all about in the first place!). Taking gunboats over to developing/poor countries and nicking all their resources is 18/18th century strategy but no longer effective... time we learnt to adapt...
The French are appearing to be ahead of us in this right now.
essentially you are middle of the road and the electorate is not
Not true though is it?
I'm tempted to agree - we've a hung parliament (despite what Jambas bloody thinks...) doesn't that indicate an unsettled electorate?
brooess - Member
...Taking gunboats over to developing/poor countries and nicking all their resources is 18/18th century strategy but no longer effective... time we learnt to adapt...
Luckily you've still got Scotland. But there will be a period of adaptation coming up there too... 🙂
out of interest, what is the french term for french people working abroad what about the Germans, do they have the word ex-pat???
out of interest, what is the french term for french people working abroad what about the Germans, do they have the word ex-pat???
Henning Wehn likes to point out that foreigners in the UK are called 'immigrants' but Brits abroad are called 'ex-pats'. It's especially funny when it's a German immigrant telling the joke 🙂
Henning Wehn likes to point out that foreigners in the UK are called 'immigrants' but Brits abroad are called 'ex-pats'. It's especially funny when it's a German immigrant telling the joke
why i was curious, is it a UK thing, or do other countries have the same attitude?
essentially you are middle of the road and the electorate is not
Not true though is it?
Which bit?
he is arguing labour and tories are to the right and left so presumably the libs are in the middle and not doing well electorally.
If more folk agreed with him then the libs would be one of the main two parties
Same word in French mrmo, les expatriés. Germans use Expat or Auswanderer.
Taking gunboats over to developing/poor countries and nicking all their resources is 18/18th century strategy but no longer effective... time we learnt to adapt
Can you give an example of where we did that (or something like it) recently, and where the French have differed?
Kuwait and Iraq.
Kuwait? Seriously?
To me, gunboat diplomacy is forcing a country to trade with you on pain of violence or severe sanctions. Kuwait was defending an ally, wasn't it?
No - invading Iraq was all about getting control of the oil.
Don't start this shit again.
Bad example - try another.
If you read the posts in order you started it, Molgrips.
I was referring to the Iraq war was only about oil conspiracy thing.
Give us another example, go on.
Well if it wasn't nicking resources it was a crusade as Bush explained to Chirac. Unless you have an alternative I haven't heard of, Molgrips.
What the **** has 18th century gunboat diplomacy (or just gunboat policy) got to do with Brexit and it being a colossally bad idea?
I know we're 841 pages in and probably scratching around a bit, but even so.......
Brexit is a colossally bad idea. Primarily economically, but also because it reflects the UK in a very bad light as an insular, petty and racist little island that isn't even grateful for its privileged status. A status mostly gained in a less ethical era when seeing a bloke in a grass skirt, shooting him and nicking his country was the accepted custom. That and industrialsing with no knowledge or regard for finite resources and the environment. But hey, we don't want to share.
Colonial attitudes and Brexit go hand in hand. Same in France: Macron came under fire from National Front Frexit types for being apologetic about French behaviour during the occupation of North Africa.
Well if it wasn't nicking resources it was a crusade as Bush explained to Chirac. Unless you have an alternative I haven't heard of, Molgrips.
I refer you to the statement I made a few posts ago.
Do you have another example of gunboat diplomacy in the last ten years or so?
I'm not. The party needs to get to the centre to win. It would have walked the last election considering the absolute shower of sh*t the tories were
I think the opposite, and I think the evidence points more to the left. Shift to the centre and the political differences become too similar and personality becomes the issue not policy.
We just have to wait for enough of the electorate to see sense undoing what the right has instilled in them.
What the **** has 18th century gunboat diplomacy (or just gunboat policy) got to do with Brexit and it being a colossally bad idea?I know we're 841 pages in and probably scratching around a bit, but even so.....
The point is that our historic way of dealing with the world is no longer applicable and we need to learn to share and be interdependent with all kinds of countries all over the world, especially ones who used to be poor but are now becoming very rich (and therefore powerful) - as a matter of great urgency - if we want to remain relevant, have influence and to maintain our living standards, and to help ensure we don't become the target of someone else's empirical ambitions!
The point is that our historic way of dealing with the world is no longer applicable
Define historic.
Before the empire we were fairly isolated by European standards. Then we started conquering the world, then we started giving it back. Arguably Suez was the last time we threw our weight around. So in modern times, we've been pretty much as we are now, as far as I can tell.
Which is why I'm asking for examples of where we've been trying to coerce others with our might from say 60s onwards? I don't think supporting allies e.g. the US counts.
If more folk agreed with him then the libs would be one of the main two parties
That's not true either. The voting system favours the two main parties. If someone votes lib dem, it splits the vote.
Don't think for one moment that everyone who voted Labour actually want a Corbyn government.
. So in modern times, we've been pretty much as we are now, as far as I can tell.
We use the aid budget for that sort of thing, not for coercion, more for favours.
In the last few months, Molgrips.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/04/new-spanish-patrol-boat-incursion-gibraltars-waters/ ]Gunboat diplomacy in Gibralta[/url]
The comical thing being that in this case Britain needs Spain to agree to any agreement with the UK that's better than no deal at all.
Don't think for one moment that everyone who voted Labour actually want a Corbyn government.
Again, I did and happy that I could actually vote for a party close to my ideals (be even better if they went a bit more left)
The most sensible balanced option is to have a cross party coalition where all views/stances are taken into account and agreed. Seems to work well in some countries and the government gets more trust as they are working together to put in place the best policies for the country rather than non stop squabbling and points scoring.
Having said that it wouldn't be for me though.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/27/eu-workers-leave-uk-deloitte-brexit
Meanwhile more Brexit news. I know it's i the Guardian, but it says a lot about how immigrants from the EU are feeling welcome here.
I work with a lot of highly skilled EU colleagues, 50% sounds about right.
It's the uncertainty that's the problem, many are looking at getting our have mortgages, children, etc etc.
They've not fit much choice but to look for work elsewhere in the EU.
Caroline Flint gets it and has listened to her constituents
"Ignoring Brexit would be bollix" she tells a Labour Progressives conference 🙂
Did anyone actually read the Deloitte's piece yesterday ?
9/10 foreign workers are very interested in relocating to the UK for "the right opportunty". There is a long line of people ready to apply for a work visa.
Brexshit is utterly toxic and will destroy anyone who attempts to deal with it. So I'm happy for now that it's entirely the tories domain. Hopefully labour will have seen sense before the crap drops into their lap. But that's their lookout. If they take it on, it will destroy them too.
jambalaya - Member
Did anyone actually read the Deloitte's piece yesterday ?9/10 foreign workers are very interested in relocating to the UK for "the right opportunty". There is a long line of people ready to apply for a work visa.
didnt you get the memo jambs? brexies dont like immigrants!
Hopefully labour will have seen sense before the crap drops into their lap. But that's their lookout. If they take it on, it will destroy them too.
this! right now MPs have to keep the xenophobic OAP brexies happy but as they die off the youth betrayed by brexshit will become even more engaged
The United States is very hard to get into. They are massively oversubscribed with VISA applicants. Ditto Australia. We can go on. The rest of the world manages just fine without freedom of movement and being part of the EU. In fact the rest of the world is generally doing a lot better than the EU
In fact the rest of the world is generally doing a lot better than the EU
Is that like a real fact? Since the average chinese, south east asian, indian, or african, doesn't seem to be doing that well...............or by the rest of the world do you mean english speaking bits?
fish in a barrel this morning jambs
http://www.cityam.com/265762/its-official-uk-has-fallen-bottom-g7-growth
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/08/uk-economy-falls-to-bottom-of-eu-growth-league
of course the UK was doing quite well, till some old fools got the ref vote they wanted
Yes we'll always attract some labour, just as Japan remains popular with Chinese and Fillipino immigrants despite the difficulties of working there. But while they are useful labour and in some cases well trained for the jobs they do (Fillipino nurses is a particular example) it's much less popular for higher skill levels.
And of course Japan is in complete denial about their demographic time-bomb which is going to complete reshape their country one way or another in the next few decades.
re the new EU citizen ID cards....
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The rest of the world manages just fine without freedom of movement and being part of the EU
Yes, but they were never in it to begin with. Our issue isn't not being in it, it's leaving it where we had previously been in it.
Do you appreciate the difference, Jam?
Did anyone actually read the Deloitte's piece yesterday ?9/10 foreign workers are very interested in relocating to the UK for "the right opportunty". There is a long line of people ready to apply for a work visa.
Jamba, i'll warrant 9/10 UK workers would be very interested in relocating to the european mainland for "a yacht and a pony".
how much does this tell us about anything?
jambalaya - Member
The rest of the world manages just fine without freedom of movement
#Jambafact 😆
Mercosur(Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay, Venezuela), along with its Associate members of Bolivia, Chile, Colombia and Ecuador established that their territories together form an "area of free residence with the right to work" to all its citizens, with no additional requirements other than nationality. The Free Movement and Residence Agreement was established in the BrasÃlia summit based in a previous document signed on 6 December 2002.[64]
Jamba, are your children eligible for an EU passport?