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kelvin - Member
Stop speculating.
Thread closed, indefinitely?
No, that would be too dramatic so no good for everyone ...
Man tries to burn EU flag. Flag doesn’t burn because of EU regulations on flammable materials
I think I've worked out how to stop Brexit.
Couple of clues in the thread today, but it was chewkw who made it obvious - thanks chewkw.
It's gloriously simple but not easy.
And if I tell how it's done it won't work.
Keep watching.
PS I'm serious. Especially about the simple but not easy bit.
Tell your friends - see if they can work it out.
And I'm sober - not a drop since Sunday.
igm - Member
I think I've worked out how to stop Brexit.
😆
Like I said chewkw, thanks it was you put me on to it. Actually it's better than that - you're going to help me do it. We may not manage but we'll try.
Meanwhile, from the Guardian letters page...
Now that the divorce papers have been filed, may we children be allowed to choose which parent we would like to live with?
See I give you good ideas. 😆igm - Member
Like I said chewkw, thanks it was you put me on to it. Actually it's better than that - you're going to help me do it. We may not manage but we'll try.
Is Guardian the new "bible" or something? 😆Meanwhile, from the Guardian letters page...
mattjg - MemberThis argument has been used many times by leavers aiming to show "they need us more than we need them".
We need each other.
There is no point in Germany shooting itself in the foot, nor the UK shooting itself in the foot. Again.
ETA: Stop feeding the troll.
sbob - but we need the EU much much more than they need us! To the EU solidarity is more important than the small amount of trade we represent
Naah chewkw, not the bible, new or old, just something whimsical I saw and I thought I'd source it.
I'm feeling really uplifted by that revelation yesterday.
And this morning someone sent me the Guardian's "Three Brexiteers" video. Worth a watch - even Brexies will laugh. Boiled eggs.
Sbob - which particular troll did you wish to stop feeding?
I think I've worked out how to stop Brexit.
Brexit can be stopped if enough people want it. The EU would accept revocation of A50 (I believe) if it had some sort of constitutional backing such as a GE or referendum.
We just need a million reasonable people to change their minds about their vote, and some assistance from demographics.
No way is this over guys. The quitlings are just trumpeting this to knock you back, they know they are vulnerable.
Keep going.
Matt - agreed. Now how are we going to make that happen? (it's more than a million by the way - it has to be a landslide. But conceptually I agreed)
I think I know - and it isn't by arguing with idiots who choose not to listen.
I like to think Ghandi would be proud of me this morning - but I haven't seen him to ask.
PS - chewkw knows the answer to these questions I'm asking if he just thinks a bit.
"Brexit can be stopped if enough people want it."
Even if nobody wants it.
Article 50 negotiations are infinately extendable.
The UK could be in a never-ending state of 'thinking about leaving' just as Sweden are in a never ending state of 'thinking about honouring their commitment to join the EZ'.
The EU has a long history of dealing with inconvenient referendum results.
Way too early to panic.
Ah, so when the 'deal' is laid out in late 2018 there will be such an uproar that it'll bring down the Govt. Because it will lay out that we're in a far worse financial position AND haven't taken back 'control'?
And it'll be Tory infighting that brings themselves down.
igm, am I near?
Not a million miles - not quite that simple, but not a million miles. But we need to do something else too. Or more correctly not provide something.
Think Orwell.
And it'll be Tory infighting that brings themselves down.
I'm absolutely amazed that civil war between hasn't broken out already. Ken Clarke and Hesaltine, as the elder statesmen have come out and pointed out the insanity of Brexit, but surely to god the less lunatic fringe of the party (Anna Sourby, Nikki Morgan et al) must be getting to the point where they have to stand up to the foaming--at-the-mouth, gleefully self-destructive, anti-everything, delusional nut-jobs who Mrs May seems to listening exclusively to, along with the Daily Mail.
I thought Ruth Davidson (definitely one of the saner Tory's) was interesting on QT last night. As she accurately pointed out, there isn't a functioning opposition at the moment - nor does there look like being one any time soon - and that is very very bad for democracy at this juncture.
I can see a point coming soon where someone from within Tory Ranks will have to grasp the nettle and break with this ridiculous 'Will of the People' bollocks. Not least because as an election gets closer, a saner approach to this whole thing represents, at the very least, 48% of the population. And in a democracy, thats just too big a chunk to be ignored, and totally unrepresented for long.
I think May is very very weak. She's no leader. She's been lucky so far in having Corbyn as an 'opposition leader'. He really is beyond hopeless! But so far she's just cravenly caved in to those who shout the loudest. We don't know what she'll do if/when people with the opposite view start shouting too. Fall apart is my guess
This present situation is unsustainable in the long term. Theres no way its going to last long
EU negotiating position:
No punishment
No hard border
close relationship
2nd phase after principles of divorce agreed
transition periods possible.
Primary concerns - rights of citizens and minimising inconvenience and uncertainty for business.
Security between UK and EU very important.
Talks on trade wanted by the autumn
fair deal wanted for both sides, talks will take place in an atmosphere of sincere cooperation.
There seems to be a lot of anger on this thread - does that mean that we have done denial (hopefully, it IS going to happen)? Just bargaining and depression to go through until we have acceptance....two months, six months, five months?
Can't help wondering if all the angst is a male thing? Controversial I know. But a strong (?) woman often scares weaker men more than a strong man does. Not even sure the PM is a strong woman, but despite having three weaklings around her, she seems to be doing a much better job than all the men beating their chests but doing nothing of use other than bleating!
Who said girl power was dead. Go woman, go.....
Just bargaining and depression to go through until we have acceptance....two months, six months, five months?
I dunno, I hit indifference a few months back. They'll screw it up and make a mess of it, they always do. And there's sweet FA anyone can do about it.
Yes , they should include indifference to the list, that's my position along with acceptance. The endless news about nothing of consequence is tiring. Do people not ride bikes anymore? Talking of which....
Its not like everything was a bed of roses before the referendum. The country was in a shit state and getting shitter (from my perspective).
Will Brexit alter that decline? Probably not. But staying in the EU probably wouldn't either.
So yeah, I'm not sure about all the hatred expressed on this thread.
Pennypitstop-
Nah id still think it was a monumentally stupid idea if it was a bloke, a woman or a highly trained pidgeon running the show.
As for accepting...
When the younger generation who overwhelmingly voted to remain come of political age we can rejoin!
It's already obvious that pretty much every promise made was a lie.... No reduction in immigration (according to Davis last week). We will still be subject to ECJ rulings, the loss of trade, loss of science investment, loss of access to EU schemes like ERASMUS and development? funds, No money for the NHS-already haemorrhaging EU staff.... Another decade of punishment budgets for the poorest, 4%loss to GDP (at best !) Another Scotland referendum....
Yeah I'll still be angry at the people that voted for and executed it all so badly.
Penny, all those things that were negotiated collectively, all those standards that were negotiated collectively.
One civil service for 28 countries, well we have to duplicate the lot. how much will that cost?
How much extra red tape!, so there goes the NHS! the welfare state, environmental laws, employment laws etc.
And the best part, want to trade, you still have to abide by those standards!
That is why i am so pissed off about this.
We gain nothing but pain, and have handed the country to a bunch of self serving ***** with no opposition, no checks, etc.
fair deal wanted for both sides, talks will take place in an atmosphere of sincere cooperation.
What is Murdoch's and Dacre's position?
When the younger generation who overwhelmingly voted to remain come of political age...
they will completely change their view of the world?? it's called getting old.
"4% loss to GDP"
Bring that on, I'm sick of growth, most people in the South are.
But a strong (?) woman often scares weaker men more than a strong man does
Nah bollocks.
Look back through the thread. All the regular Remainers here were against Brexit loooooooong before May was in charge.
Meanwhile Merkel is a pretty good example of a "strong woman" too no?
😆Mr Tusk said that while the talks would be "difficult, complex and sometimes even confrontational", he hoped all sides would approach them positively.
"The EU 27 does not, and will not pursue a punitive approach -[b] Brexit in itself is already punitive enough[/b],"
One civil service for 28 countries, well we have to duplicate the lot. how much will that cost?
Eh? More like 28 separate civil services, all with their own agendas, who are occasionally asked to form some sort of overarching set of rules or policies. And then go about implementing them all in their own separate ways.
Can't help wondering if all the angst is a male thing? Controversial I know. But a strong (?) woman often scares weaker men more than a strong man does. Not even sure the PM is a strong woman, but despite having three weaklings around her, she seems to be doing a much better job than all the men beating their chests but doing nothing of use other than bleating!
Remember, she appointed those men around her to their roles. Leadership includes picking the right people.
I don't think May's gender makes any difference in this, except perhaps for the Daily Mail and their legs fascination.
Some of the strongest (for me) speakers in the live debates on the run up to the referendum were women.
somewhatslightlydazed - MemberEh? More like 28 separate civil services, all with their own agendas, who are occasionally asked to form some sort of overarching set of rules or policies. And then go about implementing them all in their own separate ways.
well how much is the ministry for Brexit costing?
the governnments own analysis reckons up to 30,000 extra civil servants will be needed to manage brexit and the increased burden on the home office, DEFRA and especially customs officials and border staff for NI & Scotland?!
The Ministry of Brexit already needed 1000 new civil servants, but is still desperately trying to find 300 more!
all of this while the NHS is suffering an acute staffing crisis and local councils have been cut many times more than ever before
And if I tell how it's done it won't work.
So you're going to have to do it on your own?
We just need a million reasonable people to change their minds about their vote, and some assistance from demographics.
Plus a GE or referendum?
The poll tax was stopped in spite of a hard nut like Thatcher at the helm, so maybe some sort of action could stop this mess.
I don't think May's gender makes any difference in this
What Thatcher and May have taught us is that your political performance doesn't have much to do with your gender, so in that sense they have done a lot for gender equality. Tory gits are Tory gits regardless 🙂
"Remember, she appointed those men around her to their roles. Leadership includes picking the right people."
Which three Brexiteers should she have chosen in preference? I thought picking those three was exactly the right thing to do.
If this isn't feasible you end up with Brexiteers, taking the heat, not remainers.
Its not like everything was a bed of roses before the referendum. The country was in a shit state and getting shitter (from my perspective).Will Brexit alter that decline? Probably not. But staying in the EU probably wouldn't either.
So yeah, I'm not sure about all the hatred expressed on this thread.
So being in or out won't make any difference in your opinion. You maybe right but it will take 10 years, billions of pounds we could be spending on other things (NHS, elderly care etc,.) and years of distraction where the government could be doing positive things rather than pissing about with Brexit.
That is where my hatred comes from. You wouldn't spend 10 years of your life and most of your money to get to a position you were already in would you?
So, has any Brextier come up with a plan for Gibraltar yet? I've still not heard one.
EU has now said that Spain has a veto on any agreement as regards UK/EU over Gibraltar as we exit.
So, what's our plan?
well how much is the ministry for Brexit costing?
I wasn't talking about up the cost of working out how to leave the EU (probably high), just that we won't have to "duplicate" anything much to run post Brexit UK. The UK civil service has been running this bit of the EU for years.
Brexit can be stopped if enough people want it. The EU would accept revocation of A50 (I believe) if it had some sort of constitutional backing such as a GE or referendum.
Matt - agreed. Now how are we going to make that happen? (it's more than a million by the way - it has to be a landslide. But conceptually I agreed)
I think I know - and it isn't by arguing with idiots who choose not to listen.
1. Don't give up. It's all to play for.
2. Correct anyone saying it's all over.
3. Keep talking about it. Be reasonable.
4. Don't bother with the idiots. You can't argue with idiots, but you can help others see they are idiots. http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/its-very-difficult-to-argue-with-an-idiot-says-professor-brian-cox/all/
5. Remember the young do not want this. We owe it to them to do our best to stop this blighting the best decades of their lives. And have confidence that demographics is working for us. Every single day crusty old leavers leave the electorate and optimistic youngsters join it. It's a very significant effect. The young aren't so bothered about immigration as they grew up alongside, or as, immigrants.
6. Don't bang on about racism. Sure, all racists voted leave but by no means are all leave voters racist. It just puts peoples' backs up.
7. Acknowledge the EU's faults, it's not perfect but that's OK we are not fundamentalists. Some leaver concerns are reasonable IMO, but not all attributable to the EU, and leaving won't fix them anyway.
8. See 1.
Landslide? 52-48 would suffice surely?
I love the David Davis quote "A democracy that cannot change its mind is not a democracy".
And of course Farage "'52-48 result would be unfinished business'", http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017
I wasn't talking about up the cost of working out how to leave the EU (probably high), just that we won't have to "duplicate" anything much to run post Brexit UK. The UK civil service has been running this bit of the EU for years.
Simplified response: We have to duplicate (or rather replace) A LOT.
I'd go into more detail, if you wanted to discuss how much, and in what areas, but if you don't think we have to duplicate 'anything', then I'm not wasting my effort. Go do some research. It might have been better if you'd done so before the referendum, but hey.
somewhatslightlydazed - Member
I wasn't talking about up the cost of working out how to leave the EU (probably high), just that we won't have to "duplicate" anything. The UK civil service has been running this bit of the EU for years.
the govs own report that was leaked to the Times reckoned 1000s of extra civil servants to do just that
I know defra were looking at more staff to administer the replacement for the CAP
So, has any Brextier come up with a plan for Gibraltar yet?
When I went to Gibraltar it seemed that everyone who worked there lived in Spain - is that what you're talking about?
Binners said:
I think May is very very weak. She's no leader.
Spot on. I see her as none too smart and promoted beyond her competence. She's insecure, she knows this whole thing is stupid, but her remedy is to lash out. "Brexit is Brexit" - is that the best you can do?
There are lots of attempts to paint her as the new Thatcher. She's no Thatcher.
Can't help wondering if all the angst is a male thing?
No it's because most people here are men.
Can't we just hand back Gibraltar to Spain, and Northern Ireland to the Republic, in exchange for free access to the common market?
Just for you Mattjg, it's over,it's over, it's ovvvveeerrr 😀
"all racists voted leave"
Why would a racist want to leave an organisation that gives Europeans overwhelming priority over non-Europeans when it comes to immigration?
Voting for a level playing field for people of all races doesn't seem especially attractive to a racist, AFAICT.
I know defra were looking at more staff to administer the replacement for the CAP
Well as there is no replacement for the CAP yet, I imagine this is contingency planning. Another figure I hear was 300 extra customs staff if we stayed in the single market up to 3000 staff in the event of a full on "hard" Brexit. But this is all still just "think of a number".
You have to take this in the context of shrinking government departments, which has been government policy for years. It possible that you need more staff in certain areas, but overall a department will still be smaller and cheaper in the future than it was in the past.
Ta ocb, I like a bit of Roy!
ignore the brexit cultists matjg
Voting for a level playing field for people of all races doesn't seem especially attractive to a racist, AFAICT.
racists not being very bright , shocker!
look at these clowns!
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/05/neo-nazis-and-far-right-extremists-are-hijacking-vote-leave-5924885/
ignore the brexit cultists matjg
all good here thanks Kimbers.
But so far she's just cravenly caved in to those who shout the loudest. We don't know what she'll do if/when people with the opposite view start shouting too.
Quick read of the Daily Mail, I suppose?
So yeah, I'm not sure about all the hatred expressed on this thread
It's what drives internet forums, whether it's hatred of Ed Sheeran or brexit, all the same thing.
tjagain - Membersbob - but we need the EU much much more than they need us!
You're still making the same mistake of treating the EU as a single entity, which it is not.
I'm not sure how to make my point any clearer, other than reminding you that we are the EU (language chosen carefully) or perhaps referring you to Thatcher's oft misrepresented "no such thing as society" speech.
Why would a racist want to leave an organisation that gives Europeans overwhelming priority over non-Europeans when it comes to immigration?
Still plugging this line. Taken to absurdity, you might as well say ALL immigration policy, everywhere is racist. But, it's an absurd argument in itself. You know that. I can't understand why you have to peddle it every so often. The EU's FOM is not racist. Think of it as similar to the USA or Canada's FOM across state lines.
For me the problem isn't so much racism as xenophobia. Xenophobes seem to think all immigration will decrease. For them it doesn't matter how tanned the immigrant is. All our ills are to be laid at the door of immigrants be they sub-Saharan, Eastern European, middle eastern or North African.
They're in for a big ol' shock in a few years time when immigration doesn't drop to levels with which they're happy. (I have no idea what that level is btw - trying to nail them down on a figure/%-nationality is trying to nail fog to a wall.)
That'll all be the EU's fault as well.
Why would a racist want to leave an organisation that gives Europeans overwhelming priority over non-Europeans when it comes to immigration?
Because as a rule of thumb, most racists are also shit thick.
From the EU's POV movement with the EU is freedom of movement, not immigration.
(The perception gap here is an issue the EU are a bit blind too IMO and they could do with revisiting it).
kimbers - Memberlook at these clowns!
Easy there kimbers, Graham didn't like me referring to a news item that was four days old, he'll be livid when he sees you rehashing tat from nine months ago!
"Remember, she appointed those men around her to their roles. Leadership includes picking the right people."Which three Brexiteers should she have chosen in preference? I thought picking those three was exactly the right thing to do.
If this isn't feasible you end up with Brexiteers, taking the heat, not remainers.
If it isn't feasible Boris et al may lose their jobs but it will be generations of the general public who suffer.
Why would a racist want to leave an organisation that gives Europeans overwhelming priority over non-Europeans when it comes to immigration?
Because their irrational hatred is generally aimed at everyone. In that way, quite quaintly, its non-discriminatory. And lets be brutal frank about this... have you ever met a bright racist?
slowoldman said:
We just need a million reasonable people to change their minds about their vote, and some assistance from demographics.
Plus a GE or referendum?
Yes probably. I think for the EU to accept revocation of A50 it would need to seen as a constitutionally valid act, as A50 was by the leave referendum. (We can dispute that if we want, but from the EU's POV it's valid).
"Because their irrational hatred is generally aimed at everyone."
Then they're not racists.
Graham didn't like me referring to a news item that was four days old,
Give over sbob.
I didn't mind you referring to that story at all. But you didn't [i]refer[/i] to it. You just vaguely alluded to an unnamed story involving Deutsche Bank and expected us to guess you meant the older story and not the more recent and equally relevant one.
In future either just be specific or don't jump on someone when they politely say "do you mean this one?"
Professor Cox is a bright lad.
We just need a million reasonable people to change their minds about their vote, and some assistance from demographics.
I voted to stay in but if there was another vote I would change my mind and vote out of the EU. So you'd need 1,000,001 to change their mind now, and I'm not the only one.
I educated myself before the vote and found out a lot more after which has swayed my mind the other way.
And the rabid insults, put downs and downright disgusting behaviour of remainers to people who voted out made me damn sure changing my mind is a good thing. To be honest some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves, accusing leave voters of things you are way more guilty of since the result went against you.
found out a lot more after which has swayed my mind the other way.
such as?
And the rabid insults, put downs and downright disgusting behaviour of remainers to people who voted out made me damn sure changing my mind is a good thing. To be honest some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves, accusing leave voters of things you are way more guilty of since the result went against you.
I think you should go onto any BBC brexit article open to comments and check what the leavers are saying on there, dont even go near an indyref one!
Fair point, vote switchers and persuading non-voters to vote are factors too. I was being a bit trite with the 1 million figure.
Also some people seem to switch to leave because they see it as undemocratic to campaign against Brexit. I think they're wrong, democracy didn't stop on 24 June 2016, but that's a factor too.
"And the rabid insults, put downs and downright disgusting behaviour of remainers to people who voted out made me damn sure changing my mind is a good thing."
Yeah, it's utterly counter productive. The vote was too tight to needlessly alienate people.
I voted to stay in but if there was another vote I would change my mind and vote out of the EU. So you'd need 1,000,001 to change their mind now, and I'm not the only one.I educated myself before the vote and found out a lot more after which has swayed my mind the other way.
And the rabid insults, put downs and downright disgusting behaviour of remainers to people who voted out made me damn sure changing my mind is a good thing. To be honest some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves, accusing leave voters of things you are way more guilty of since the result went against you.
Well, 10/10 for coming at this from a new angle at least........ 🙄
such as?
Indeed. Do share. It would be a huge weight off my mind to have it changed!
accusing leave voters of things
In all fairness - a decent proportion of leavers were voting for bad reasons. It has been acknowledged that not all leavers voted on these terms. So don't misdirect and misinterpret that sentiment.
Yeah, it's utterly counter productive. The vote was too tight to needlessly alienate people.
But that too.
So you'd need 1,000,001 to change their mind now, and I'm not the only one.
1,000,002 actually.
At the risk of there being too much optimism and positivity on this thread, here is a lovely quote from yesterday:
“[i]There is no reason not to invest tomorrow, if there is a demand and a commitment from the customer. I am willing – and the company is willing to invest – further. There are more opportunities than risks for us.[/i]”
Joe Kaeser, Siemens chief executive
There is no reason not to invest tomorrow, [b]if there is a demand[/b] and a commitment from the customer.
That's the issue though isn't it?
Dont worry Cranberry, us remoaners will bring you back to reality- heres something to show how that demand is being generated
http://www.theactuary.com/news/2017/03/uk-consumer-debt-now-at-240bn/
good job we arent in the middle of the most complicated and risky process since the war....
I'm enjoying this.
Today is like a breath of fresh air on this thread.
Going well 12 hours in
"such as?"
I've learned loads about this topic since the Referendum.
I'd be surprised if there was anyone who didn't know a bit more than they did before.
I'm ashamed to say I didn't know services were tariff free before the Referendum. (I knew services aren't goods - I just assumed there would be an equivalent.)
Im still waiting to hear what changed his mind tho, it must be pretty amazing
I knew wed have to leave the european medicines agency, ERASMUS, HORIZON 2020 etc
didnt know wed have to leave euratom
Didnt know wed be leaving the new european patent court we'd put so much effort in to set up!