[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Seemingly, remainers want everyone to care about them and their ideals for society.
While not caring a hoot, for those for who the EU wasn't working.

Utter bullshit.

Plenty of examples in this thread of people who can circumvent, or even benefit from, the changes ahead as we leave the EU, but dead against us leaving because of the effects on others. Go ahead and argue that "remainers" are wrong that leaving the EU will hurt those worse off the worst, but to suggest those arguing that we are wrong to leave don't care about these issues, and those people, simply doesn't stack up.

Remainers participated in a democratic process and by doing so implicitly agreed to accept the result of the vote.

We were obliged to participate. Had we not we would still have the result imposed.

& I never agreed to give up my FOM rights, or those of my child. The right to freely travel live work and study in the world's most prosperous free trade area and the crucible of western civilisation. Thousands of years of culture to share in, landscapes from the Scandi tundra, the Alps, the deserts of Spain and more.

Whereas you (presumably) voted to do that to us, specifically against my consent. You voted to take something from me and my child.

It's stupid, it's personal because it's something you did directly to me, and we're not about to get over it.

Angry? **** yes.

While not caring a hoot, for those for who the EU wasn't working.

Not true. I have tradesmen friends who voted leave because of the effect of immigrant labour on their incomes. I think they made a mistake in the big picture, but understand their feeling.

But what's sad is damage to the economy will cancel out any benefit from labour shortages. They're not going to get what they want.

I see no upside here Just damage.

Is it right that you export your pollution? Which a lot of the environmental improvement in the UK really is.

It's almost as if environment regulation works better when it is agreed between, and applies across, as many countries as possible. Perhaps we can start with Europe? Do it as a trading block perhaps? Prevent a race to the bottom between members states as they seek to carve out a competitive edges by reducing cost by dumping environmental protections. We could even include a commitment on environmental protection in trade deals the trading block makes with third countries, using the scale of the trading block to help improve the environment in those countries that want to more easily sell their exports to us.

Just an idea.

What a brilliant future. Scotland and Ulster leave the UK. That just leaves England and Wales.

A nasty, xenophobic little backwater.

Compare that to the EU immediately offering EU Citizenship to any UK resident who wants it. Open, cooperative and generous still.

"Fog in the channel. Continent cut off." 🙄

[i] mattjg - Member
I never agreed to give up my FOM rights, or those of my child. The right to freely travel live work and study in the world's most prosperous free trade area and the crucible of western civilisation. Thousands of years of culture to share in, landscapes from the Scandi tundra, the Alps, the deserts of Spain and more.[/i]

Excellent!

You're saying that those for whom the EU wasn't working, those forced from their homes, family, country. Were wrong and selfish to vote leave.
While your justification to remain is your chosen lifestyle.

Wow!

I'm thinking of the restrictions placed on my child's future, by others, for no benefit to anyone.

Pardon me for the selfishness.

It's not about policy, it's personal. I never voted to take anything from anyone.

Playlist: Ryan Adams Starting to Hurt https://open.spotify.com/track/0w2GcdrBdiIz7JZMCgLGVe

You're saying that those for whom the EU wasn't working, those forced from their homes, family, country. Were wrong and selfish to vote leave.

And these mythical leave voters would be.....?!!

Even for a brexie that's a fair chunk of made up nonsense !

[quote="solo"]You're saying that those for whom the EU wasn't working, those forced from their homes, family, country.

One example of people in this position? Just one little fact to back it up?

Solo's just trolling. I should have known better.

Building on TJ's question... People in this position due to the EU - that is, not due to the UK government, UK economics, or simply bad luck.

Reminds us of how bitterly you complained about how the EU was forcing your fellow countrymen to leave their homes and country, just so you and your family could stay and enjoy living in the UK and EU.

You'll have to remind me, I don't remember saying that...?

Good to see Comrade Jeremy finally come out and say what he's been thinking all along, [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-bring-socialist-britain-labour-mp-kelvin-hopkins-revolution-a7656311.html ]in what passes for reality in his head[/url]. When interviewed by Andrew Neil last night he said that once we're out the EU, any subsequent Labour government will once again have the power to intervene and subsidise 'key industries'

I've seen the future comrades.....

[img] [/img]

"Compare that to the EU immediately offering EU Citizenship to any UK resident who wants it."

Linky, please!

It hasn't happened but it's a Verhofstadt proposal. Fingers crossed but hopes not too high.

It would be a smart move by the EU though. At the macro level, the smarts and wealth generators of this country voted remain, the losers and dead wood voted leave.

(Yes I realise there are exceptions. I mean broadly).

"Compare that to the EU immediately offering EU Citizenship to any UK resident who wants it."

"Linky, please!"

"It hasn't happened"

Thanks for your input!

Well you could help make it happen. Email Verhofstadt. There's a petition on the EU website somewhere, and also Jo Maugham is doing something on this.

Ask for it.

Compare that to the EU immediately offering EU Citizenship to any UK resident who wants it. Open, cooperative and generous still.

Britain has the Tory party, why would it need an extreme right party? The politics voted by the Tory party in parliament are somewhat right of Marine's manifesto and yet Brits seem worried about her.

What was fascinating last night was interviews with various EU politicians who still hope we won't leave or are trying to negotiate in such as way as we will be discouraged to leave or make if very difficult. As we have seen so many times before classic EU anti-democracy. It doesn't matter what member states vote for onky the Superstate project matters.

Whoppit we are no more xenophobic than anywhere else in Europe, they don't want freedom of movement either and neither does anywhere else in the world have it. Its a stupid idea. It should never have been, just have a visa system with a variable cap on numbers agreed between states. Set high in good times and low in difficult ones.

EU citizenship doesn't really exist, its a smoke and mirrors tag totally dependent upon citizenship of a member state. It was introduced by the EU as a step on the road to a Superstate getting people used to the concept. It's just like the flag.

Anyway please sign a meaningless petition.

@matt we've discussed children's opportunities before. My daughter did an Erasmus year in Copenhagen but her other choices under the programme where Australia and Canada. I worked in US and Singapore. Kids will go where the opportunities are, I'd love to see stats for kids who do working holidays/gap years in say Australia or Asia vs EU.

People here like the idea of freedom of movement for work in EU but how many actually do it or get the langauge skills required ?

The EU has held us back massively and IMO is only going to decline further relative to the rest of thr world, it has many countries 10% genereal and 25% youth unemployment (50% in Greece). This is due to stagnanet economies, too much debt and too high a euro exchange rate for their economies.

Seemingly, remainers want everyone to care about them and their ideals for society.
While not caring a hoot, for those for who the EU wasn't working.

Not at all. The referendum result showed a near 50/50 divide so I would have hoped for government policy to reflect that in some way. [i]To me[/i], that result indicated that a lot of people were unhappy and things needed to change, but it also wasn't (to me) a clear enough mandate to leave either.

But here we are.

Why should the onus be on the EU to offer immediate citizenship,

it was the UK after all that decided to quit?

itd be great if verhofstadts plan comes true, Itd be great to ensure myself and my kids dont get their EU citizenship stolen from them thanks to our ill-informed flounce

they don't want

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

The EU has held us back massively and IMO is only going to decline further relative to the rest of thr world

Examples please Jamba of the EU holding us back

My daughter did an Erasmus year in Copenhagen but her other choices under the programme

yeah you pointed that out before and claimed (falsely) that that ERASMUS was nothing to do with the EU

now that my kids will be denied the opportunities yours had Im sure you feel very pleased

Britain has the Tory party, why would it need an extreme right party? The politics voted by the Tory party in parliament are somewhat right of Marine's manifesto and yet Brits seem worried about her.

Le Pen has many policies from the left and attracts many voters from the left. She is categorized as extreme right by her opponents. I see the PS is imploding post Valls saying even he won't vote for Hamon.

Tories are using Labour's decline and Lib Dem implosion to capture the centre ground. Tax free personal allowance heading to £12k (polls very well with their core retiree vote too) and increases in minimum/living wage

Leaving the EU is not a Tory or "rightwing" stance, its cross party not least as evidmced by the Leave vote stats and Corbyn's lifelong anti EU stance. A WTO only deal is like wise cross party.

A WTO only deal is like wise cross party.

The implications of which you have shown you don't really understand. I'd hazard that vast swathes of Leave voters who quite happily spout "We'll just go to WTO. No problem." don't understand the implications of WTO either. It'd be a bloody nightmare.

@kimbers your kids will be able to do Erasmus for the reasons I have stated many times. Look at the list of member countries. The value of freedom of movement to British kids is pretty limited imo and will be replaced by recipricol work/travel visas.

By the the way French press have reported that applicatiins for British passports have risen 100%, migration is a two way street.

The WTO option will be a disaster!

even the brexies on the Brexit committee did a runner when they saw how bad our options were

keep believing the hype jamba, the cult of Brexit demands unwavering support

By the the way French press have reported that applicatiins for British passports have risen 100%, migration is a two way street.

Almost like people want freedom of movement

The massive dickhead, Tim Martin* complains about British Taxes.
(But blames the EU.)
The massive dickhead, Tim Martin* complains about the lack of scrutiny for laws in parliament.
(But blames the EU for this too.)
The massive dickhead, Tim Martin* talks about Brexit giving great opportunities.
(But cannot name a single one for his business.**)

*He of cheap alcohol and shit food.
** This is probably the EU's fault as well.

Prepare for the narrative over the next two years. As Brexishambles thunders on, all its failures will be blamed on the EU making life difficult for us.

Jamba- examples of the EU holding the UK back please?

they don't want freedom of movement either

Link please.

Actually, don't bother.

You're just making stuff up.

AGAIN.

By the the way French press have reported that applicatiins for British passports have risen 100%, migration is a two way street.

If 1 was applied for last year, then 2 this year would be a 100% increase. There was a similar report mentioning percentages in increased applications for Irish (goodness knows why anyone would want to be a citizen of a country described by jambalaya as "primitive" and "backward" but there you go...) passports post-referendum but as far as I can remember, the real figures gave a clearer picture than percentages. What are the real figures and what are the reasons? Do we even get a source? Shorter queues at immigration once the border walls go up?

"itd be great if verhofstadts plan comes true, Itd be great to ensure myself and my kids dont get their EU citizenship stolen from them thanks to our ill-informed flounce"

If you gave a toss about ur kids EU citizenship you wouldn't be considering moving to Canada.

Jamba- examples of the EU holding the UK back please?

Iain Duncan Smith said so, so it must be true

If you gave a toss about ur kids EU citizenship you wouldn't be considering moving to Canada.

Please provide the logical steps that show that you're not just coming to a conclusion that suits your argument. This is what it sounds to me like you're doing, but go on, show us.

dd: the Wetherspoons bloke? Yeah heard him on the Today programme this morning. He seemed oddly befuddled for someone who is so vocal on the issue: complaining about rises in UK alcohol tax ( 😕 ?) and EU regulations that hold him back but he is unable to name.

His only solid point seemed to be that he had to pay out money for some kind of green environmental regulation - he didn't know much about it and wasn't sure if it was an EU reg or not, but after the Great Repeal Bill he'll know for sure it is a UK reg that he can lobby his MP to drop (because obviously we can't have "the environment" getting in the way of profit).

"your argument"

I don't think anything I've ever posted on this thread supports any wider argument.

If you've spotted a wider argument my posts support, I'd love to know what it is.

outofbreath - Member

If you gave a toss about ur kids EU citizenship you wouldn't be considering moving to Canada.

oob, please show me where I said I was moving to canada, come on, it cant be hard.......

Jamba- examples of the EU holding the UK back please?

I thought the [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/27/cut-eu-red-tape-choking-britain-brexit-set-country-free-shackles/ ]Telegraph article[/url] from the other day cleared this up?

Once we are freed from choking EU red tape we can once again use inefficient lightbulbs and hoovers; stop funding green energy; kill endangered newts at will; and be forced to work for more than 48 hours a week.

And who doesn't want that?

Bloody newts, sitting around being alive and holding us back.

I don't think anything I've ever posted on this thread supports any wider argument.

If you've spotted a wider argument my posts support, I'd love to know what it is.

Ok, don't show the logical steps then. I was just checking.

"If you gave a toss about ur kids EU citizenship you wouldn't be considering moving to Canada."

Source:

"re emigrating
weve sent our info off to the canadian embassay,partly out of curiosity, been told we have a very good chance of being accepted, should we want to, I have family there and the wife liked it, just the winters that are a worry
not planning to rush off yet, see how the negotiations pan out"

"Ok, don't show the logical steps then. I was just checking."

Logical steps between what and what?

And what wider argument?

Came from here:

So someone (if I'm correct here, kimbers is pretty worried that future cuts to science research funding [b]will affect his future employment prospects[/b]) investigates prospects for moving to Canada, and you conclude that that means he doesn't give a toss about his kids' EU citizenship. That's an impressive leap, I'll give you that. Now, if you could show your workings...

EDIT: my EDIT in bold.

Logical steps between what and what?

And what wider argument?

Look, if you don't want to show how you reached your conclusion, then just say.

"d you conclude that that means he doesn't give a toss about his kids' EU citizenship."

Yup. If Citizenship of somewhere with EU membership was critically important then you'd move within the EU, not outside.

Now you tell me, logical steps between what and what wider argument.

"Look, if you don't want to show how you reached your conclusion"

What conclusion?

What wider argument?

Yup. If living somewhere with EU membership was critically important then you'd move within the EU.

Living somewhere with EU membership won't keep dependents' EU citizenship if/when the UK leaves the EU.

Yeah, I had this a lot from leavers "if you love the EU so much, go and live there".

Sure, sell house, take daughter out of school, find work school and home in another country.

Then, March 2019, get told to leave?

And perhaps he would like to live in a liberal democracy?

"Living somewhere with EU membership won't keep dependents' EU citizenship if/when the UK leaves the EU"

Yup, post corrected.

Graham its about the stagnant growth in the EU and our inability to forge bilateral trade deals with fast growth markets in Asia for example. Red tape is a secondary issue although a significant one.

And perhaps he would like to live in a liberal democracy?

Screw that. He cares about his kids' EU citizenship, so anywhere that isn't in the EU means he doesn't really care! 😀

Anyway, as I said, I'm sure kimbers can speak for himself on that issue. He certainly doesn't need me dancing on pinheads on his behalf.

And perhaps he would like to live in a liberal democracy?

The Canadians are all xenophobic's as they have full border control and no likelihood of ever agreeing Freedom of Movement with anyone. I'd also wager welfare, social care, state health provision and workers rights are all far weaker than in the UK.

"And perhaps he would like to live in a liberal democracy?"

Why not? Canada's ace.

It's just not in the EU.

if you love the EU so much, go and live there

Yeah, well I used to live there till you ****ed it up.

The referendum result showed a near 50/50 divide so I would have hoped for government policy to reflect that in some way.

@kimbers don't take this the wrong way but .. IMO you are interested in Canada as they speak English. This great EU Freedom of Movement "benefit" is useless to most of us as we in the UK are hopeless at languages (me included, barely passed my German and my French is poor). As we are quite rightly "poking you in the ribs about" you love the EU so much you are moving 3000 miles away 🙂 Canada is also on the US's doorstep and if you get citizenship getting into the US is much easier with all the fabulous study and work opportunities that provides.

Make no mistake I like Canada, my oarents applied for immigration there in the 1970's - we didn't go - and I was speaking with a number of fellow Brits who have lived there 40-50 years at my friends wedding last week.

The Canadians are all xenophobic's as they have full border control and no likelihood of ever agreeing Freedom of Movement with anyone. I'd also wager welfare, social care, state health provision and workers rights are all far weaker than in the UK.

Sounds right up your street, when do you leave?

Jamba - all borders should come down, all trade should be free and all countries should be consigned to our primitive history. Discuss.
Not sure what Britain as a country (as opposed to a set of administrative units) has ever done for me - or anyone else

Graham its about the stagnant growth in the EU and our inability to forge bilateral trade deals with fast growth markets in Asia for example.

I get that, but personally I think we'd get stronger trade deals with those Asian markets as a member of 28 country trade block with a combined population of ~510 million.

I think that gave us more to negotiate with, even if the need for consensus meant the deals take longer (which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing either given things like TTIP).

Red tape is a secondary issue although a significant one.

What have you got against newts? 😉

So you agree with IDS [i]et al[/i] that the platitudes about adopting current EU law into UK law should be forgotten and we should have a cull on all those pesky regulations that impact profits (like the ones protecting worker's rights, the environment, equality etc)?

So jamba - you don't actually know but will wager?

Healthcare in Canada for example is almost all free at the point of use and an entitlement for all citizens regardless of ability to pay..

outofbreath - Member
"And perhaps he would like to live in a liberal democracy?"

Why not? Canada's ace.

It's just not in the EU.

sighhhhh

despite you continually misrepresenting my position (a spiffing example of a brexie tactic)

I have said that Im considering my options, I also said scotland was on interest, assuming they can stay within the EU

I am presently moving nowhere

Depending on how incompetent the brexies running the show are maybe we'd move to Canada- never been my wife loved it, I have family there, good mtbing!-
USA- lived there for a while liked it a lot, too much Trump
Norway, wife worked there for a while, lovely place, a lot of benefits of the EU
Spain, its great, science funding is ok, barcelona has one of the best located genome research centres Ive ever visited- right on the beach! Wife speaks spanish so that helps
Germany, been quite a bit speak enough german to get by, wifes not keen, good science funding, not enough coastline tho!
France, got quite a few collaborators there, mixed bag on funding, alps are tempting
NZ/Aus, maybe, gt a few friends in both, very good friend in NZ, not sure tho
Britain, speak the language, got family here, Science funding (my industry) is about to take a big brexit hit, economically seems determined to shoot itself in the foot, the politics of ignorance seems to be ascendant..

Eldest child is 6 so potentially big upheaval for them, ultimately would like to make sure they have the brightest future, in or out of the EU
We are lucky that we have the qualifications and enough capital that we have the options open to us

as I have repeatedly said Im keeping my options open, I love britain, sadly my country seems to be intent on self harm and racing to the bottom

The referendum result showed a near 50/50 divide so I would have hoped for government policy to reflect that in some way.

Spot on.

Instead we get a govt behaving as if the referendum was 99-1, with all 99 being Farage.

The result was 16 to 17. Put 33 people in a room, split them, and one gets the casting vote. Their decision is implemented on all, in the hardest possible scenario.

Democracy my ****. In a democracy, everyone's view matters.

TJ. Yup. I am pretty confident.

Graham look at the listbof EU trade deals, link on here manyboages back. They have agreed deals with just about no one of any size. The EU is a [b]protectionist[/b] organisation. Its about blocking external trade and competition.

@matt - the Government tried to be more in the middle ground. The Referendum made clear we wanted Freedom of Movement to end, the EU made it clear thats non-negotaible with regard to "single market" access. As such we are trying to negotiate the best compromise. However if the EU continues to buggar about, stalling and coming up with ludicrous invented "bills" then we should just go and play very hard ball (imo)

The Referendum made clear we wanted Freedom of Movement to end

How do you figure that?

All countries, all trade deals and ultimately all clubs are essentially protectionist Jamba.

The UK willl be protectionist too when and if it leaves the EU - it'll just have less muscle to do it effectively.

"despite you continually misrepresenting my position"

I genuinely don't think I have, you asked me to post your exact words, and I did.

Moly - Jamba had a [i]special [/i]ballot paper

The UK willl be protectionist too when and if it leaves the EU

Yes. Seems like many leave voters want to increase UK protectionism. And many don't. It's going to be amusing, except for all the economic hardship.

I'll just leave this here - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39441035 ]day 1[/url]

"The referendum result showed a near 50/50 divide"

Yeah, Cam was gonna resign anyway, he should have said "This is inconclusive, I can't reasonably do what it asks and therefore I resign. Sorry."

But then it's not just the one party is it? The opposition also take the view that 52/48 is good enough.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/30/uk-games-companies-leaving-brexit-vote-eu-workers ]40% of Games Companies are considering relocation[/url]

Jamba - then lets see something concrete - you said the EU held us back. Lets hear some examples

The Referendum made clear we wanted Freedom of Movement to end

No it didn't. There were many and varied reasons people voted leave.

you claim I dont give a toss about my kids EU citizenship because ive looked at moving to Canada

I pointed out that im looking at it as an option
for the next 2 years moving within the EU will remain relatively easy for us,
other countries require more bureaucracy and red tape (which sadly will soon be our future in europe too) hence why I said we looked at canada, partly out of curiosity..

I care very much that my kids are have the chance to grow up in a forward looking, open, tolerant part of the world

Being british and part of the EU used to seem like a good way to ensure that.
the hatefilled referendum campaign and the ongoing brexishambles have shown that might not be the case

To be fair Klunk, I suspect multinationals consider that sort of thing everyday anyway.
It's the percentage that go from consider to are relocating that matters.