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[quote=binners said]Note which man looks apprehensive, and which one is smiling
Timbo looks decidedly more happy than the Donald.
I think we're going to see a pretty massive shortfall in nurses, regardless of the actual final Brexit terms:
Less EU nurses? Not really a problem for those of us who don't mind nurses with slightly different skins tones to ourselves.
How do you manage to turn the lack of EU nurses into some dig with racist connotations?
Less EU nurses? Not really a problem for those of us who don't mind nurses with slightly different skins tones to ourselves.
I don't mind different skin tones either - but we have to find a way to convince an additional 8,000+ qualified nurses to come here from those countries while the pound is still in the gutter.
I reckon robotics is likely to really take off now.
In twenty years time robots will do everything that eu workers used to do.
Those in jobs will live like kings and retire at fifty. Those without will live in an economic wasteland of deprivation and Duncan-Smitheque welfare rules.
Sbob - didn't have to give up a job. I'm guiding the company I work in in the direction of helping. Lucky enough to be senior enough and have enough latitude to do that sort of thing. You'd think, say, Jamba might be in a similar (or better) situation where he could guide his company into sorting out the mess. Assisting DIT that sort of thing.
outofbreath - Member
Are non-EU countries unwelcoming?
Can't say I've ever found that.
Have you ever stood in immigration at a New York airport. Unwelcoming?
Strangely in Phoenix, Denver or Chicago they're sweetness and light.
binners - MemberNote which man looks apprehensive, and which one is smiling
And note that in this other picture, there is a third party, if you look really closely:
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
😆
we have to find a way to convince an additional 8,000+ qualified nurses to come here from those countries while the pound is still in the gutter.
Your point was very specific to EU nurses, it's wasn't about generally attracting less workers due to low £.
If low £ is your problem then that's trickier since I assume the low £ is considered desirable by some to encourage exports.
We'll have to decide what we want. More exports going out or more cheap stuff (including labour) coming in.
Have you ever stood in immigration at a New York airport.
You've got me there, I was hoping nobody was going to bring the USA up.
Happy to help OOB 😉
To be fair their job is to assess you not to be welcoming and I don't know what UK immigration is like with non-EU (shortly to be non-UK) national. Probably unwelcoming.
vile racist as wellmatt_outandabout - MemberStark was so rude and arrogant this morning. A genuinely nasty man it seems.
For amusement purposes only. The Yorkshire Evening Post has re-run the referendum.
76-24 on over 7000 votes last time I looked. So a little less than in June but even so
NOn EU nurses? Soi yo are going to strip countries of their nurses - this can cause major issues for those countries and many non EU nurse qualifications do not count for UK purposes so we have to retrain them
How do you manage to turn the lack of EU nurses into some dig with racist connotations?
He is trying to suggest that because the UK is highly restrictive as regards non-EU migrants that some how the EU is racist. The UK government has recently added additional financial burdens on NHS trusts that wish to fill empty posts with non-EU staff, making recruitment of non-EU staff prohibitively expensive at a time when NHS trusts are struggling with their budgets already. The UK government has done this. Blaming EU migrants, or EU FoM for the anti-immigrant policies of our own government is standard tactics I'm afraid.
TurnerGuy - Memberbut it is still not as easy for non-EU migrants to get into the UK - currently there is discrimination in favor of the EU countries, so that in itself is rascist...
Which of course is a UK government policy, and nothing to do with the EU, we set rest-of-world immigration policy ourselves.
But it's a red herring, and I think an intentional one- an attempt to play the racism card. Leaving the EU isn't going to benefit rest-of-world immigrants, the goal is to cut immigration on all fronts. It won't make the lot of an african immigrant any better to make things worse for a French one.
Your point was very specific to EU nurses,
The problem [i]is[/i] very specifically a huge drop in EU nurses.
Saying "Oh we'll just recruit from non-EU countries" isn't a solution - we [i]already[/i] recruit from non-EU countries, as any trip to an NHS hospital will tell you, so we'd need to find an [i]additional[/i] 8,000+ nurses per year from those countries. That's a lot.
If low £ is your problem then that's trickier since I assume the low £ is considered desirable by some to encourage exports.
Low £ compounds the issue, as it potentially makes the UK a less attractive option to those non-EU nurses.
I think the only definite is that there is going to be a lot of anger directed by a lot of people at Brexies and let's-all-pull-togetherers for a long time.
Understandably of course.
NOn EU nurses? Soi yo are going to strip countries of their nurses
So what's your solution to that? Recruit Uk only nurses?
Are nurses exempt from the minimum earnings for non-EU nationals then? Otherwise how many of these nurses we're recruiting will be earning more than £35k pa? Given that the NHS were only given a 1% payrise this week I'm not sure that'll help fill the recruitment hole. We also have a drop in student nurse numbers due to the bursary being scrapped.
Must stay positive though.....
So what's your solution to that? Recruit Uk only nurses?
1) more new UK nurses needed - but UK government has scrapped the student nurse bursary, so fewer applying
2) more EEA nurses - but fewer applying because of UK government's approach to their rights and Brexit
3) more non-EEA nurses - but this now very burdensome because of UK government's new charges and requirements
4) retain existing nurses - but they are leaving because of working conditions in understaffed hospitals (see 1-3)
outofbreath - train more ourselves and also use EU nurses - spain for an example has a surplus
A few years ago there was a recrutment drive in the carribean. the only ITU on one of the main islands had to close as most of its nurses signed up to come to the UK.
If we recruit from non EU countries we should be paying them compensation to allow them to retrain more nurses
Indian nurses have to retrain to work in the UK
Main issue with UK nurses is 1/3 of them are approaching retirement age not that they leave the profession but we do not have enough in the pipeline to replace them
outofbreath - MemberSo what's your solution to that? Recruit Uk only nurses?
No. But recruit more. Hey, we could even try recruiting enough. Instead we're actively discouraging people from training, and driving qualified nurses out of the profession.
It's not just retirements though TJ, every nurse I know has moved to agency working, or private hospital jobs, or working overseas. Actually, I know one that hasn't, but she has applied to work in Australia… got offered a post but failed the immigration writing test… great nurse but never was great with the written word.
I'm a Southern Irish nurse, trained in London 1996-99, worked for the NHS since 1999. I'm leaving NHS and England, no certainty of rights to live/ work/ earn, NHS going to pot and insulting pay rises all factors.
I would categorically discourage anyone from doing the training now and would not do it myself - paying how much per year for the priviledge of being free staff in wards while training? No thanks.
Give it a few years and it will be doomed. As above, it is immoral to strip developing countries of their qualified staff to work here and as for train own people - having a laugh, see above about pay/ conditions/ paying to train.
So immoral to use Nurses from outside the Uk, and impossible to recruit within the UK!
Until we find some nurses in space I guess we'll just have to manage without Nurses!
NHS going to pot and insulting pay rises all factors.
I would categorically discourage anyone from doing the training now and would not do it myself - paying how much per year for the priviledge of being free staff in wards while training? No thanks.
Give it a few years and it will be doomed.
I think you could almost say the same for teaching. Only I don't think we recruit many teachers from overseas.
But if you don't have enought staff, pay ought to rise (eventually). i just doubt it'll happen in our time.
I'm a Southern Irish nurse, trained in London 1996-99, worked for the NHS since 1999. I'm leaving NHS and England, no certainty of rights to live/ work/ earn
Irish citizens have had a right to live/work/earn in the UK since long before the EU existed.
Regards nurses, We are already turning away thousands of non EU nurses:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adam-hamdy/uk-government-turned-away-2700-nurses_b_10275224.html
Or you could say what I did and not tweak it to suit your message? In case you couldn't read it all, I am not from the U.K. - it isnt immoral to use outside staff then but the complete devestation of local workforces is. I said it was immoral to perform the stripping of staff from these areas - I have experineced mass recruitment drives to these areas going over for weeks at a time and recruiting large %ages of local staff leaving them compromised and unable to provide for their own population.
Its that attitude you demonstrate that will leave here in major crisis in the not too distant future - good luck!
Edit - Ninfan - yep that has been true but due to the complete refusal to provide indication of the on-going guarantee this uncertainty is fueling worry for people. And if the EU decide on Hard Border/ restriction then it doesnt really matter what the U.K. want as EU members the Republic will need to comply.
Here's a thought.
Sounds like May now accepts a deal won't be done inside 2 years and a transition will be needed.
If the EU say well yes to a transition but only within the realms of an A50 extension, then that would leave the A50 negotiations straddling the general election.
Now that would be interesting - especially as the EU are making noises about getting the UK to retract its A50 letter.
Now May could reject the extension offer - but that would see a cliff edge on the economy 12 months before the general election.
That would also be interesting.
I think this comes down to whether the EU actually want us to stay (and they may not).
Or you could say what I did and not tweak it to suit your message? In case you couldn't read it all, I am not from the U.K.
I don't have a message, just making the observation there is a shortage of public sector staff in the UK and it going to get worse.
Its that attitude you demonstrate that will leave here in major crisis in the not too distant future - good luck
What attitude might that be?
Give it a few years and it will be doomed. As above, it is immoral to strip developing countries of their qualified staff to work here and as for train own people
You say that, but there are loads of unemployed nurses in the Philippines.
but due to the complete refusal to provide indication
NHS going to pot and insulting pay rises all factors.
I do not think pay rise solves this all - working conditions and morale are a more fundamental issue.
I think this comes down to whether the EU actually want us to stay (and they may not).
My expectation is that before the leave date, the UK could, in practice, change its mind and the EU would accept that.
Philosophically I don't think the EU has a desire or means eject a member against its will and A50 doesn't mention it.
Tusk's face tells the story of how he feels - and note he also made a point of mentioning the 48% at the very beginning of his speech. (In 9 months May has never done that).
Experienced politicians know tides can turn very fast and the EU is better with the UK in.
So I don't think it's down to if the EU want us to stay, it's down to us, within the next 2 years, to ask to.
Just been reading the Article 50 letter ([url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/29_03_17_article50.pdf ]PDF shared on BBC[/url]).
I know we are in an era of soundbites, but she is [i]really[/i] keen on that "deep and special partnership" thing isn't she? Using the phrase multiple times per page seems a bit much. Reminds me of her "global global global Britain, Global Britain, Global" speech. 😕
NInfan - yeah, Did you read the article you linked? that reads as an absolute and enough for me to base my future decisions on - except for it all comes across as eh, yeah, i think maybe it'll be ok.
Matt- your right but after many years of stiffling pay it is a significant factor, Royal College of Midwives have equated it to an effective £6000 pay cut in recent years. I work in Occupational Health for Primary Care so see the results of this daily - it is falling apart due to morale, pressures, targets and a myriad of other issues pushing all levels of staff to breaking point. And brilliantly the commissioners are currently looking at decomissioning our service as NHS England have introduced a service nationwide - available for GP's only, with acute mental health issues - removing all OH support for the rest of/ majority of staff and the majority of what its needed for. Currently we are the only service like it in the England, and looking like to be no longer soon.( North East England based)
We aren't going to change our national mind prior to the GE. May s too bound up in Brexit. But the GE might well change it.
Hence why it will be in the EU's gift.
So:
* let the jubilant Brexiteers have their little day of triumph, they can never say the referendum result wasn't "respected" (cough, I prefer to say acknowledged)
* bide a little time for their plans to unravel when confronted with reality
* understand that in no way is this over, don't let them shout you down - they're doing that because they know they are weak.
No way is this over. Today is not VE day, it's Dunkirk.
This picture suggests the tide is already turning:
https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/847095529096036352
Regards nurses, We are already turning away thousands of non EU nurses:
From the same article:
When we have recruited nurses from outside the UK, they have tended to come from non-EU countries. According to the Migration Advisory Committee, 86% of nurses currently working in the UK trained here, 10% trained in non-EU countries and only 4% trained in the EU.
So as I said we are [i]already[/i] recruiting huge numbers of nurses who trained in non-EU countries.
We aren't going to change our national mind prior to the GE.
We might.
Angry teenagers join the electorate every day, oldies depart.
Lots can happen.
But your points are valid too. After we leave it certainly gets a lot harder. In due process we go back to being a new applicant nation.
Somewhatslightlydazed - sorry, wasn't replying to you (not sure how to do quoting thingy - probably would have clarified who i was responding to) was more directed at the doing without nurses and finding them from sapce comment above yours.
Stop worrying. it'll all be fine. After all, we have a plan
[url= https://www.planforbritain.gov.uk/ ]plan for britain[/url]
"If the EU say well yes to a transition but only within the realms of an A50 extension, then that would leave the A50 negotiations straddling the general election."
If by that you mean leave A50 negotiations as an endless quagmire, extended over and over again with the UK never actually leaving I think that's exactly what's planned. Our establishment, and the EUs establishment don't want us to leave.
But then my political predictions are always wrong.
Endless A50 limbo? No I can't see it, they'll want it settled.
"Endless A50 limbo? No I can't see it, they'll want it settled."
All the comment I've seen says 'they' are desperate to keep the EU project on track. Plus there's 27 of them who all have to agree.
Plus we're one of only a handful of net contributors.
Uncertainty is bad, but breaking up the EU is badder.
... so now the Remoaners will be clutching at straws for 2 years more at least.
We can check out any time we like, but we can never leave?
plan for britain
"We will build a more united nation that our children and grandchildren are proud to call home".
Yeah right.
@Mooman, what the remoaners realise and that the breixters don't is that we are not going to gain anything positive by leaving.
You want security, european arrest warrants etc.
you want easy transfer of goods and people. etc.
Want to fly in a plane.
drive your car
power your nuclear power station
protect the envrionment
etc
etc
etc
The EU isn't perfect, i don't think anyone thinks that, issue is simply that does leaving actually fix anything? Does it make us richer, better educated, healthier?
Or does it give the free market tories the opportunity to scrap what is left of the welfare state, abandon environmental standards?
Sounds like May now accepts a deal won't be done inside 2 years and a transition will be needed.
If the EU say well yes to a transition but only within the realms of an A50 extension, then that would leave the A50 negotiations straddling the general election.Now that would be interesting - especially as the EU are making noises about getting the UK to retract its A50 letter.
Where did you see this igm?
United my backside.
How to i apply to become a Scottish?
"We can check out any time we like, but we can never leave?"
Yup.
(...but my political predictions are always wrong.)
I don't think there will be an extension to negotiations personally - the EU have siad it may not be irreversible tho so deal done, second referendum which will easily be for remain and we stay i having annoyed the 27.
It could happen
But the right want out so they can slash worker and environmental protection so it relies on the right falling apart.
could easily be another GE over it all as well
If this was the 1930's David Starkey would be using his undoubted intellect to advise the Nazis on policy. He really is a vile man.
He is also a rent-a-quote when someone wants a neo-fascist whose lips don't move when they're reading.
"We will build a more united nation that our children and grandchildren are proud to call home".
Ha ha
Based on the brexiters use of xenophobia and lies during the referendum campaign, it is plain that this is complete bollox
"We will build a more united nation that our children and grandchildren are proud to call home".
I'm struggling with the logical jump that Britain was somehow less united by being in the EU. 😕
Anyways, what are the panel's thoughts on the [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39430799 ]London Stock Exchange-Deutsche Boerse £21bn merger being blocked by the EU[/url]?
(sadly the BBC comments section isn't loading at the moment - but I'm sure it is a hive of informed debate).
Slowoldman - I absolutely haven't seen it. I've made it up.
I've seen Hammond and Davis and May say lots of things (I am assuming they got their scripts straight) many of which were not what was said earlier. And I've seen them not say some of the things Lancaster House might have led you to believe were going to be said.
Transition was specifically mentioned in May's letter to the President - even though at one point it was ruled out by Davis. And the tone on no deal has changed - that's giving room for something beyond 2 years. It's either wriggle room or a hope that we can leave but preserve our status for a bit - whys that then?
Hmmm, good question- try this.
May has asked for concurrent exit and new deal negotiations (even though there is less chance of the EU saying yes to this than May saying yes to Sturgeon - if fact Merkel has already said no) because she knows consecutive negotiations (which we'll be forced to have) will take more than 2 years. Civil servants have been saying this for months and they have a little more expertise than government ministers.
So there is the issue / potential need and there is the wriggle room / status preservation - the rest is me making it up. But it does look likely doesn't it.
GrahamS - I'm struggling with the logical jump that Britain was somehow less united by being in the EU.
I think you, like me, are an ex-pat Scot possibly also like me married to an English lass.
If so you're probably trying to work out what exactly could make the UK more dis-united than Brexit.
Infrothed debate I think you'll find GrahamS
48% do not want to support this, a further unknown % are now shitting their pants.
Parts of the letter read like an ultimatum, this only increases the * you attitude of all opposed to Brexit. Brexit folks can dismiss this but the fact is there are significantly more wealth makers in the remain camp than in the Brexit camp which is heavily populated by poor, uneducated benefits class - simple fact * wits a hard rain is gonna fall.
The EU is going to do all it can to;
1) String out our membership/contributions for as long as possible
2) Make it as easy as possible to retract A50
As The Daily Politics said today the EU27 are divided with net contributors unwilling to pay more and net recipients unwilling to take less.
Can we start the "now that's what I call Brexit album" please ('cos there's nothing quite like staring into the abyss and laughing)
I'll nominate "a hard rain is gonna fall" - thanks OMMtb.
And how about "letter from America" - do write once in a while Nige.
The London stock exchange takeover of Deutsch Boerse was dubbed a merger but it was obvious who was on the losing end. Brexit made stopping that an imperative. That's my take, Graham. Good news that means that there's no non-European control of an important trading platform that should benefit from the EU taxing the arse off London - well I would if I were a commissioner.
Jamba - surprise agreement on two points there. (The Daily Politics one is stating the bleeding obvious.)
Edit - looking at my posting rate, I may have had too much coffee today
Jamba, you seem to have missed that Britain will be contributing more in the future if that's what the EU decides. I hope (and will vote for) tarifs that more than match the UK's current contribution for access.
heavily populated by poor, uneducated benefits class - simple fact **** wits
Bob and Mrs Bob were being interviewed for the Today program this morning - other than mumbling about immigration they didn't appear to know what they wanted - just to make Britain 'great again' as it was before we joined the EEC. Other than for a period between 1939 an 1945 when we briefly held the moral high ground when were we other than perfidious Albion.
2) Make it as easy as possible to retract A50
Good. Let's hope we can muster enough collective to sense to bite their hands off. And say "thank you very much and we're really sorry for being such dimwits and we won't do it again".
I think you, like me, are an ex-pat Scot possibly also like me married to an English lass.
If so you're probably trying to work out what exactly could make the UK more dis-united than Brexit.
Correct on all three points igm 🙂
The London stock exchange takeover of Deutsch Boerse was dubbed a merger but it was obvious who was on the losing end.
Not something I've been following to be honest Edukator. Was it looking like a bad deal for the UK?
The article quotes the LSE as saying it "regrets" the commission' sdecision, so sounds like they were keen on it at least.
IgM I like this idea! How about
Alternative Ulster Stiff little fingers
Out of control - U2
However I think track number 1 should be It's my Party (and I'll cry if I want to)
On the contrary,it was looking to be a bad deal for Germany and the EU. So having suddenly become a lot more European and a lot less British today today I see the failure of the takeover as a good thing.
Jamba, you seem to have missed that Britain will be contributing more in the future if that's what the EU decides. I hope (and will vote for) tarifs that more than match the UK's current contribution for access.
That's ok. There'll be tariffs the other way to balance it out.
Not if the deal is anything like the deal with Switzerland or Norway.
Slowoldman - I absolutely haven't seen it. I've made it up.
Ah, I really should be careful with things I read on the internet.
Not if the deal is anything like the deal with Switzerland or Norway.
But Jambalaya and Nigel promised double portions of jam......
The EU is going to do all it can to;1) String out our membership/contributions for as long as possible
2) Make it as easy as possible to retract A50
Wow I'm agreeing with Jamba, has bregret tempered him?
Meanwhile it's Lloyd's of Brussels
https://www.ft.com/content/9945c0ee-1483-11e7-80f4-13e067d5072c
(Sorry sbob)
One of those is a lying racist who blames immigrants for everything and the other one is......the mods wont like the punch line 😉
Crikey some of the responses are so doom and gloom ... 😯
It's a new day cheer up and make the future prosper. 😛
The Clash - Complete Control.
F it....have Career Opportunities too....!
ROFL!!